Season 61, Week 5: Tentacle rape goes awry, when Songi realizes he has none.

[SageAcrin]

Godlike:

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP)
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7)

Heavy:

Songi(LoL) vs Hrist(VP2)
Arnaud(WA4) vs Chie(P4)

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8)
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon)

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S1)
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3)

[superaielman]

Myria- lol*10000000000000000
Emelious- Faster is enough.

Hrist- Don't think Songi gets the OHKO, so he dies.
Arnaud- Evasion

L'Arachel- Double spoiling!
White Wizard- Kneejerk DoS being able to outlast Blastoise thanks to the killer magic durability.


Yam Koo- Go first, 2HKO
Mallow- Poison blocker+healer. It's enough.

[Sei]

Godlike:

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP) - Boomies

Middle:

White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon) - FF1o only, but since WW's faster and Blasty's big guns already has some accuracy problems, evade buffing and healing shenanigans shoud do the trick

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2) - Not Lucia
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3) - Melody's pretty doomed with POIZN blocked

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Loki(VP) - Um yeah. Loki even tries, but the durability/speed differences are a bit problematic.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth (FF7) - I think seeing Emelious as a bit faster makes sense - which gives him the edge in this slugfest.

Heavy:

Songi (LoL) vs Hrist (VP2) - I'm not sure Songi even gets 2HKOed by Hrist. On the other hand, they're pretty much the same speed and he definitely -does- 2HKO.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs Chie Satonaka (P4) - Illusion to make Chie's offense fail? Check. Dispel to mock Miori Shirt, Power Charge and Tarukaja? Check. Water resistance to make Chie's Bufula suck -even more-? CHECK.

Middle:

Venusaur (Pokemon) vs L'Arachel (FE8) - L'Arachel evade makes Venu's status really suck here, and she wins the speed tiebreak. Not sure she 2HKOs with Fire (Elfire may lead the status below turn two), but given it's turn -three- with Fire and L'Ara goes first, it doesn't have to.
White Wizard (FF1) vs Blastoise (Pokemon) - Holy shit this fight sucks.

Light:

Lucia (L2:EB) vs Yam Koo (S2) - lololol crit hype111 or something.
Mallow (SMRPG) vs Melody Vilente (WA3) - Poizn immunity+healing = Melody hates everything.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP): Kinda tempted to go with Loki just because it's so close.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7): Not at all comfortable with seeing Emelious as faster, personally... he's slower numerically, so you have to take Seph's speed down a peg via some method (factoring in auto-haste or some sort of disrespect for FF7 speed in general) while ignoring the fact that Emo's best damage comes from a part that is distinctly not his fastest. Though if you allow all parts they blitz quite well, so eh. I don't!

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8): And thus Venusaur's reign of terror finally ended. Middle is FE's plaything again?
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon): FF1o doesn't really stand much a chance here, after four shots her healing is 25%, which can't even keep pace with WATER GUN thanks to her bad MDef.

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2): Finally someone good enough to blitz. Man the top half of Light sucks this season.
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3): Poison blocker and healing makes him one of the best Melody spoilers in the division.

[Bardiche]

Godlike: (totally uninteresting)

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP)

Heavy:

Songi(LoL) vs Hrist(VP2) - Gamebest Avd for what it's worth, pretty high defenses. That DAMN DARK WEAKNESS. Her HP isn't THAT great, but not so bad coupled with her defence that she'd go down in one hit. Meanwhile she 2HKOs, probably. Yeah, unless someone does the maths...

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8) - Dodge, zap, dodge, zap.
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon) - As much as Venusaur VS Blastoise would amuse me...

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2) - Lemina-esque stats with Jean-level defence, you say? Yam Koo has more speed and 3HKO damage against average... maybe 2HKOs Lucia. He hits her. She increases her defence. He hits her again and fails to kill, Lucia heals. He hits, maybe doubles, still fails to kill, Lucia heals again. (at this point she trumps Leo's defence)

OK, let's math. Yam Koo does 0.36 HP against average. Lucia has 0.79 HP. So he barely misses the 2HKO. He hits her, Lucia casts Magic Barrier and buffs her defence to around 270. Puts her at 1.23 average defence, with the note that defence in Lunar isn't that significant. Assuming 2 def = -1 damage as Lunar 1 has... this means 24 less damage than average... means 0.96 damage received. This nerves Yam Koo to 0.3456 damage, let's say 0.35 for ease. ... lol.

No matter what, he will 3HKO her because the difference is really negligible between Lucia's actual defence, and her buffed defence. She'll probably heal instead, then, which she can do easily. Assuming Lucia heals every round, and Yam Koo only doubles her after let's say four rounds...

First round, Yam Koo attacks. Lucia retaliates. Yam Koo attacks, Lucia heals. Yam Koo attacks, Lucia heals. Yam Koo doubles, Lucia heals. Attack, heal, attack, heal. Attack, Lucia retaliates, attack, Lucia heals. Double. Repeat ad nauseum.

Her heal recovers 0.55 HP, so she can easily outheal his damage. His damage is incorporating his average crit chance which is once every three hits, so potentially Lucia has even MORE leeway considering he doesn't crit on every hit and thusly does less damage per hit.

Yeah, going to say Lucia bags this one. Yam Koo double-critting on a double just seems unlikely to me.

[Pyro]

Godlike:

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP): Funny enough BoF1 Myria probably loses.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7): Multipart blitz.

Heavy:

Songi(LoL) vs Hrist(VP2): Stronger from the get-go.
Arnaud(WA4) vs Chie(P4): Dispel gets rid of the accuracy buff. Easy from there.

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8): Her DL form had the fire magic, right? Ouch. Res to nerf the status.
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon): FF1o I guess. But I thought she nerfed all elements?

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2): Lucia's AI isn't that fantastic.
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3): Pretty much average damage. Has healing.

[Bardiche]

I think holding AI against people isn't entirely fair? No AI dictates the bosses always use their ultimate move - BoF3 AI demands its bosses to cast Confusion on Confused PCs. Or to Sleep those who are Sleep-immune. We assume bosses here to follow an optimal course of action. It seems a bit odd to assume PC AI would not follow an optimal course of action.

Unless you assume Sephiroth would Fly instead of finishing off a fight and thereby losing the fight, of course. It isn't entirely unprecedented that bosses use sub-optimal moves and don't always finish off their adversaries like they could.

[OblivionKnight]

Godlike:

Tyr(BoFs) vs Loki(VP) - Loki.  Tyr1 just gets mauled (great durability!  no damage!  and the best is physical!).  Tyr3...mmm...much closer, but Indiscriminate's damage is just too high (Tyr3 had magical resilience above the mean, correct?  much less close if that's not the case), while her's is...worse.  And she's not durable enough to wait that out, even with Tyr3's better damage...she'd need Tyr3's damage and Tyr1's durability.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7) - Emelious.  Sephiroth might avoid Godkiller!...mostly because all the other parts maul him fast enough >_>

Heavy:

Songi(LoL) vs Hrist(VP2) - Songi.  Both are excellent bosses...Songi's just more durable.  And both need in Godlike ;_;
Arnaud(WA4) vs Chie(P4) - ON THE PLUS SIDE FOR CHIE...Power Charge doesn't get dispelled in-game!  So...uh...that helps?  Otherwise, yeah, she kind of dies ;_;

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8) - Venusaur.  Storebought TMs probably help here?  I'd have to look.
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon) - White Power! 

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2) - Lucia.  Lunar 2 support spells unfortunately do not last long (and wear off over time), so defense boosting does not help much.  ON THE OTHER HAND - Sega CD form, Soul Rush, dead.
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3) - Melody.  Mallow doesn't break the barrier defense ;_;

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's one thing to give bosses better AI than in-game. It's a different matter for PCs like Lucia, Umaro, and Gau (beyond choosing his rage) - the fact that they choose bad moves is an in-game disadvantage compared to other PCs whom you control directly.

Lucia's AI is pretty solid, in terms of knowing when to heal and so on, but not considering a defence buff to be used turn 1 is pretty reasonable to me, much like assuming Gau doesn't use Charm or Death on turn 1.

[Bardiche]

To be fair, as I pointed out, it probably only removes 0.01 HP damage from Yam Koo. Even without, assuming Lucia has Jean-like defenses, it modifies Yam Koo's damage by about 0.00x or even 0.000x damage and that's just too little to make a really big difference in the grand scheme of things. (I rounded up for it, so it'd just further justify the rounding up)

Defence was a mind slip. She should ideally just heal and attack. Unless Yam Koo hits a double.


I am of the mind that if you discard AI for bosses, you discard it for PCs too - I assume the bad AI is an inherent part of the game, not particular to a PC.

[Scar]

Loki wins. He won their last meeting, and I don't see anything that has changed to make me think he would lose this time.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP)- Loki....probably 4HKOs Myria to me. So...the question is where I see Loki's HP (Obv Myria 3, since 1 is arguable middle bait to me). Granted, if I see full Indisc (Myria's large size means that she's not having any party members ever!)...I would definitely say Loki.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7)- Also unsure here on starting speed, which is rather important

Heavy:

Songi(LoL) vs Hrist(VP2)- One I can be sure on! Songi starts with more damage and has more durability, even with boss Hrist having some evade and Dark res. Could be argued though, as it's a decent match
Arnaud(WA4) vs Chie(P4)

Middle:

Venusaur(Pokemon) vs L'Arachel(FE8)
White Wizard(FF1) vs Blastoise(Pokemon)- DoS form crushes (NulAll works quite well)

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2)
Mallow(SMRPG) vs Melody(WA3)

[SnowFire]

Myria(BoFs) vs Loki(VP)
Tyr 1 only, holding against a lot of Agni = horrible damage despite still having ridiculous HP.
Emelious(G3) vs Sephiroth(FF7)
Yeah, I definitely give Emelious all his parts despite not hyping his speed as much as some.  Fly helps a little here in that it turns off the Sword's regular attacks, I think?  But not enough, and my Sephy damage respect is low (see other conversations about assuming lots of HP+ materia and 9000+ PC HP and backrow for this fight).

Heavy:
Random babble since no votes: Arnaud is such a weird dueler.  Lots of close but basically legitimate wins in Heavy this season, looks like.  I wonder what the best dueler in the DL is that Arnaud still spoils?  He has a vague shot against Chris if you hype his ID weapon, I guess, and he has an interesting fight with Lenneth.  (Oh and Chelle loses horribly due to SHUT OUT but usual Chelle disrespect from this quarter, if you let her go first and full 2x Predator Barrage then sure she wins.)

Light:

Lucia(L2:EB) vs Yam Koo(S2)
I hold Lucia's AI against her, but I'm pretty harsh on forgettable S2 Suikoscrubs, so suspecting that Yam Koo doesn't 2HKO.

[Dark Holy Elf]

FF1 has a water attack, Swirl/Tsunami, and Wall/NulAll doesn't hit it. Wall only gets fire, ice, lightning, and poison... the fact that FF1 has a bunch of damaging spells that we'd now certainly consider to have other elements (Tsunami, Holy, Tornado...) means I definitely don't give it any respect for blocking elements beyond those four. Well, five, since I'd probably toss Earth in due to it stopping Quake, even though Quake is status instead of damage in that game.

Also, just noticed this, but Yam Koo is from S1, not S2. He's in S2, but isn't playable there. Yeah, such a memorable character we can't even get what game he's in right!

EDIT: Also, Arnaud slaughters VP1 Lenneth. 2 is tougher, but offhand he probably wins that too - illusion prevents her from doing much, slow down, sleep and kill. Brahms is a similarly easy win. Empyrea loses unless you see her as faster (and even then may lose anyway), if you see Illusion hitting through her stat down immunity, which I... probably don't, but there's an argument. Tibarn, etc. Basically, Arnaud spoils anyone reliant on evadable physical attacks that doesn't outspeed and accurately kill him first. This isn't really news, this type of spoiler exists just fine. Kimahri could beat some of these people and he's Light/Middle range.

[Talaysen]

Her heal recovers 0.55 HP, so she can easily outheal his damage. His damage is incorporating his average crit chance which is once every three hits, so potentially Lucia has even MORE leeway considering he doesn't crit on every hit and thusly does less damage per hit.

Yeah, going to say Lucia bags this one. Yam Koo double-critting on a double just seems unlikely to me.

Considering how close to 2HKOing Yam Koo is considering crit averages, he probably only needs to crit once on a double.  I don't remember his crit rate, but if it's anything decent then it's not that rare, and might happen in a long match like this.

Re: AI - And yet people don't seem to force AI on DQ4 or P3 characters.  Whatever.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Can't speak for P3, but I've never played DQ4 with AI. <_< If someone had stat topic'd how DW4 AI worked then I might have voted on it, but now I have the DS version to fall back on anyway.

More generally... in the case of those games, it's a (near) cast-wide thing. In the case of Umaro or Lucia, though, it's a very specific weakness.

[SageAcrin]

Also, just noticed this, but Yam Koo is from S1, not S2. He's in S2, but isn't playable there. Yeah, such a memorable character we can't even get what game he's in right!

It's even worse when you realize that I had the arena page open for this.

I think it was actually a spaced out mistype, I kept getting distracted when I made the topic by various things.

Oh well, fixed.

[SnowFire]

DHE: Sure, on the hypothetical...  yeah, definitely see Empyrea as being problematic.  If nothing else Zap hype might work if Arnaud can get his stat downs to stick.  Lenneth 2 is an interesting fight to me because I'd definitely force Arnaud to open with Shut Out, as Lenneth is from a game system that very clearly lets her maneuver out of "bad" terrain (a la poison swamps / stat-downed hex) and still attack, but it's still closesish anyway, even if we assume Lenneth starts in the center hex.  Shut Out -> Eat Lenneth attack -> Slow Down-> Illusion -> hope few enough hits that Arnaud isn't dead.  Honestly leaning Lenneth on that, Arnaud isn't blitzing quickly and she can even toss in Heals on her turns.

[Dark Holy Elf]

As soon as Arnaud lands sleep, though, it's over. And Lenneth's hit rate after Illusion is ~5% (and even before it, it's not very good). She might get lucky with a Code Break blitz if you both allow that and ban Arnaud's own ID blocker but otherwise I can't see how she has a chance, looking at it.

Zap is... uh, once per round, and something like 5HKO damage to average, so probably needs 8 hits to kill Arnaud? That's not working. Empyrea is probably better off with "move out of Illusion + attack" as her turn, which... actually, might just let her win. I suppose Arnaud could open with Shut Out instead, then apply Slow Down and Illusion, then Blast away, and that's... actually quite close, since even the weaksauce Zap may finish Arnaud off if Empyrea gets two turns of full attacks off (on average, one of those four will hit, and that hurts a lot).

Side note: given that no enemy in WA4 can move and attack at the same time, I don't allow anyone to get out of statused hexes for free, whatever system they come from. They can take a turn to do so, but this of course is only valuable if one is faster than Arnaud, and he has just the trick to avoid that. If someone had a very specific "attack and change locations" move which was a rare thing in his game, then I might consider it, but certainly no system-wide spoiling just because you happen to be from a SRPG or similar. Your mileage may vary.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Go go Disgaea Spears > Arnaud spoiling hype.

[Dark Holy Elf]

As if anyone armed with a Disgaea spear has enough damage to beat Arnaud even in a straight slugfest!

I wanted to like them.

[SnowFire]

Mm, forgot sleep hype worked vs. Lenneth 2.  Zap might be slow but Arnaud's offense vs. Empyrea is also horrid, and if you go for full Illusion hype then Empyrea's turns are Zap + Heal.  Still, if you don't give ANY stat resistance to Empyrea I guess he wins, but I'd definitely see her as at least tanking a few stat downs, which is deadly for Arnaud (that first Illusion really needs to hit).

Was thinking mostly of Raquel as an example of Move + Attack in WA4, for what it's worth, but sure, if you think the fact that this is rare among enemies is relevant, I can see working that in.

[Sei]

On Empyrea vs Arnaud, wasn't Empyrea's Grabs Hold attack ITE? Or am I remembering it wrong?

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's not.