Season 61, Week 6

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3)

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4)

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1)

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Week 4?

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3)- Emelious has one part that can do any real damage, and that part is probably a tad slower than Loki and not very durable. And Loki has damn solid MT ITE.

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4)- Hmm, unless he can get around the 1/3 ITE kill zone? Open to suggestion, but high boss Hrist and boss Hrist having that "I win" zone makes me think this.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1)- Uh...man, dunno. I mean, if The Rachel needed Fire or Lightning to get past her last match, then yes, she loses here since Wall puts her too far behind. If she would have won with Holy, I would consider the option still open and this would then hurt my head.

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG)- Lolucia.

[Bardiche]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3)

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4) - ... huh.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1) - Counters, high Res. I think.

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG) - Mallow just misses the 2HKO with his strongest attack, so it's 3HKO time. Eventually he'll run out of MP for Healing and then Lucia goes lol.

[superaielman]

Unsure on Godlike and Heavy

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1)- Magic defense and resources are enough, I think?

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG)- It's Lucia.

[Monkeyfinger]

L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1): L'Arachel's defense means that WW physicals start doing real damage. With that in mind, WW can last long enough.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3) - Don't think Emelious 3HKOs Loki, and he needs it here. On the other hand, Emelious getting 2HKOed? Yeah, think it happens just fine. It gets more one-sided if he fails the 3-2, and even if you allow the magic to miss, multi-hit, vicious assaults are how you spoil G3 evade whoring.

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4) - Evadable physical that's slower against Arnaud. Totally working.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1) - COUNTERS. More seriously, WW still like 5HKOs L'Arachel before evade, and the poor mdur means that she needs to heal every time she attacks. Bad start.

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG) - Even assuming Lucia AI -never- craps out on the healing... Mallow is faster after the first turn and Lucia offense is horrible, -and- he 3HKOs with his physical and with his magic. Lucia can't buff her way out of trouble nor can she heal out of it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3): Yeah. Even with the most favourable interp to Emelious here, I think he loses to me. Two Dark Forces hurt, but not enough to kill Loki, and two Indiscriminates definitely kill back. Never mind that other interps put the Dark Force part as slower than Loki.

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4): Above average speed and Illusion. Boss probably has an argument.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1): WW's bad mdur and the fact that she triggers counters make this easy. What's she going to fight back with, 17HKO physicals?

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG): Mallow winning here relies on a doubleturn? Well, he'll probably get it.

[OblivionKnight]

Emelious - I...Indiscriminate kills things fast enough, but the lack of focus means that it's kind of useless (4 hits, 1 of which might hit the Godkiller, which does nothing!).  Don't think anything else kills fast enough - at worst, Emelious gets Godkiller off, and Loki dies.  Fitting, that. 

Hrist - Boss.

White Wizard - Free casts of healing, and loads of support magic make this...pretty much in her favour.  Not sure how I view Ruse and magic evasion (since...it's evasion for everything in Fire Emblem), but I really don't think it matters.  Allowing Ivaldi...helps, but not enough, I think.

Lucia - EBO form is enough - better relative healing, damage, etc.  Still status immune too!  Mallow's FP is an issue here, since Lucia has no limits.

[Pyro]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3): Powerful enough MT to kill Emelious. Especially since only one part can hurt him and that part is slower <_<

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4): Slow Down, Hyper, Fragile, Parcellsus Dirk = Arnaud has no trouble killing Hrist through whatever limit range she might have. Triple-turning while dealing sexy damage? Yeah Boss Hrist isn't nearly badass enough to handle that. And Arnaud has all the time he wants to set it up.

Clarifying: Even with just the Aglia, the combo of buffs he has allows Arnaud to deal (3500+1800)*2 three times. That is 31800. If THAT doesn't blast past Hrist's limit range, then you are smoking some good shit and I want some.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1): Wall works against Troubadour L'Arachel, right? Holy magic would do the trick otherwise though? Hmm. I'll have to think if I allow her to switch classes.

Light:
Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG): Oh blah. I'm not sure here, but whatever.

[SnowFire]

Godlike:
Loki (VP1) vs Emelious (G3)
Interesting.  Loki's true-MT (not Indiscriminate) probably KOs all of Emmie's parts but the main & the Godslayer outright, but do they get off actions before then?  Dunno, the speed of Emelious's parts felt kind of erratic.  Anyway, willing to buy a Loki 2HKO for sure, unsure if Emelious can 2HKO back.  Not really a fan of Loki super-DEF hype as noted before.  Very close match, at least.

Heavy:
Hrist (VP2) vs Arnaud Vasquez (WA4)
Heh, after just talking about Arnaud vs. Lenneth...  if Arnaud can set up a Triple Turn, I guess I can maybe buy him blasting through Hrist's limit range, though this is more Boss Hrist HP disrespect than Arnaud damage respect.  And the fact that he has to open with Shut Out isn't so bad if Illusion is as badass as DHE hyped, as 5% hit is pretty well negligible, since even 20% hit might have saved it for Hrist given that she will get one opening combo off on Arnaud.

Middle:
L'Arachel (FE8) vs White Wizard (FF1)
FF1o's resource stockpile of GOOD healing isn't THAT deep.  And I'm not letting RUSE work on FE magic, so yeah, counters add up and drain WW's healing.

[James_xeno]

Lucia (EBC) vs Mallow (SMRPG) -

Mallow only 3HKOs Lucia. That's without factoring in her MDEF, only HP. So healing gives her as much time as she needs. Speed doesn't really effect the match. Mallow and Lucia are both below average, (around 82% and 73%) and from TB systems anyway.

I don't think there's anything Mallow could do here to win.

[Dark Holy Elf]

More WW/L'Arachel stuff:

Quite frankly, even Mage Knight L'Arachel can beat FF1o White Wizard. Sure, her damage now fails, but it's still badly outdamaging WW's physicals, which have the added benefit of game-worst hit by quite a ways...

Accuracy (AVERAGE = 84)
Knight (123) > Red Wizard (94) > Ninja (92) > Master (83) > Black Wizard (66) > White Wizard (46)

... and are triggered every time WW tries to attack. With only four shots of healing that actually registers, and the fact that L'Arachel gets the drop on her, it seems too large a hole to climb out of to me.

DoS might have a better shot, but a lot of WW's problems there are still the case (hit, damage in general). Probably good enough to beat Mage Knight now, but not Valkyrie.

[Bardiche]

Just noting Lucia outheals Mallow's damage by a fair margin, too, so yeah. Mallow'd need to triple-turn to win because if he hits Lucia twice, she doesn't die, and if he has a double coming up Lucia can heal way in advance.

I guess you can say "But AI!!" but I think that's a fairly shoddy reason to vote against her simply because bosses have crap AI too and no one holds that against them. (I'd say that the game's AI dictates both the allies and the enemies, so in this case I don't see why the enemies should be given a handwave in light of this and allies not; Lucia being uncommandable is, to me, just an aspect to balance her limitless magical reserves so people can't abuse it)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Lucia wouldn't even be a good PC, let alone abusable, if you could control her. <_< As is she's clear LVP throughout the game and I don't see anything wrong with penalising her for it in the DL!

[OblivionKnight]

I always viewed AI as more of a personality quirk of characters, honestly.  Lucia would still be...usable.  Her EBO form would be awesome, but the EBC form would beat Ronfar on damage!!!!!!!!!!!!! at least.  The healing is at least helpful, and if you could control her she could probably use crests, which would up her usability a lot (kind of like a Renaissance Mage of sorts).  She'd be...possibly still LVP, but she'd be able to fill a couple roles.

[Bardiche]

Lucia wouldn't even be a good PC, let alone abusable, if you could control her. <_<

Infinite Heal Litanies from the menu, supreme Plasma Rain (or whatever the full-screen AoE was) spam on randoms with no penalties.

I dunno, I guess I just don't think voting against someone who is superior in everything but AI controlling her should lose. As someone pointed out before, it's not like other AI-controlled people ever get penalised in the same way, particularly the P4 cast.

[OblivionKnight]

Mmm...it might be entertaining to put everyone on AI and see how that happens.  I like randomness!

P4 at least has the option of taking off AI...P3 doesn't, though the PSP release does.  DQ4o doesn't...but the remake does.  Seems like a lot of the games that have it do allow it not to be utilized. 

Action RPGs are another one that uses a lot of AI (uncontrolled Tales characters), but the AI there is relatively basic.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Again, Lucia's AI-ness is specific to her, instead of a cast-wide thing, and I'd seriously consider holding a cast to AI if I played a game with it forced anyway (I haven't). The better parallels are Gau and Umaro.

I was assuming Lucia's healing would be in-battle only, for what it's worth.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'd assume if you controlled Lucia, she'd actually have MP costs! But yes, unlike bosses or P3 or DQ 4, Lucia is clearly an anomaly that isn't based on the whole game structuring. Being on AI is so innate to her worth in game (and yes, while this is also true to bosses, the comparison doesn't even feel relevant here. Bosses and PCs structuring is completely different for good reason).

[James_xeno]

The argument that not holding Lucia to her in-game AI, in some way distorts her worth in the DL, is a dubious one. Do we not have a league, with a few exceptions, full of successful (NPC) fighters and champions who would struggle to even win a match if held to their in-game AI? I'd be more understanding if this was a question of ability. Whether or not Lucia was able to use her skills or spells in nonspecific ways/times. But it's not! This whole thing just smacks of plot argument.


Not that it matters here. Her AI is at least good enough to deal with a fight like this.

I'd assume if you controlled Lucia, she'd actually have MP costs! But yes, unlike bosses or P3 or DQ 4, Lucia is clearly an anomaly that isn't based on the whole game structuring. Being on AI is so innate to her worth in game (and yes, while this is also true to bosses, the comparison doesn't even feel relevant here. Bosses and PCs structuring is completely different for good reason).

Not relevant?! I think that's really missing the point. Lucia's an NPC like every other boss. She's just one who fights alongside your party as an ally. I don't see how the comparison couldn't be accurate in light of the facts.

[Dhyerwolf]

I wouldn't call it a plot argument, because it's an argument based on in-game performance. Yes, you could say that Lucia is just like a boss, but at the end day, she's...basically only the notable cases a PC fighting on AI where you don't have any control over her while having complete control over the rest of your party. Honestly, it's the most notable thing about her in battle for the majority of the game, and given how it's so unique to her within the entire RPG realm, it definitely feels like a different scenario where she could really rightly be held to it.

Her AI can't deal with this. Mallow has a low 3HKO with his physical, and to most he'll double. I don't think Lucia's AI is setup is heal if she's at say...60% life. All he has to do is stall until the turn before the double, smack her, have her not heal, double and kill.

[Pyro]

Is Lucia's AI psychic? (i.e. does the game decide her actions at the beginning of the round)

If so, I definitely wouldn't let Mallow Double.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'd be shocked if anyone had a definitive answer on that given that Lucia's AI topped at mildly infuriating.

[Dark Holy Elf]

That's a very good question, and I... think I agree with the conclusion. I don't know the answer, however.

And I definitely think the burden of proof is to show that it -is- psychic (since even Lunar -bosses- aren't, of this I'm certain), and I'm not going to be testing it myself. If someone does, then I'll change my vote.