Tsundere Mafia - Game Over

[Hunter Sopko]

Yeah. I was thinking Mai/Tanaka after the Day 2 Hammer. The problem was that other than the hammer... I had absolutely nothing to pin on Tanaka at the time, so I couldn't really pursue it in earnst.

If nothing else, I hope this makes people realize what I've always said... strategies like LAL are basically sound, but they have drawbacks and are not infallable, and should not be used in place of actual thought and shouldn't be automatically defaulted to. Slavish adherance to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about. I got lazy with the Leia vote and it cost me credibility. Oh well. My failures in this game are apparant.

About what?

If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.

Honestly, the main reason Cartanaka got away with what they did was because Town decided not to be around. Leia and Rin in particular were asdfghjkl.

And gdit, why is it every time I get a stupid gut hunch and people convince me away from it, I turn out to be right? -_-

Rin was bad, Leia was more Rat convincing people that everything she did was terrible. In hindsight, Leia's attitude came AFTER people just wrote off everything she said, but it was assumed it was there all along. It's an unforgivable attitude to cop, mind, but... makes it so easy to mis-characterize. Which is why you shouldn't do it at all.

[Alice Margatroid]

Kilga: if it is the same as that game except those two changes (doctor -> jailer, kill++), then you've upped scum's power by a fair chunk in comparison. But eh, it's plausible that scum were underpowered in the original.

Well, the thing is that the first thing Tanaka did when he entered the scumchat was kvetch about "only two scum" (and Rat had said something about it prior as well). Even after allowing use of both powers each night I got to hear about it again when Asuka flipped and then again when Margaret died. A couple of other dead townies expressed mild surprise at 9/2 throughout the game as well. I myself am of the opinion that a 33% lynch accuracy game is much better than a 60% lynch accuracy game regardless of role shenanigans, and I have been for a very long time (look at all the stuff I said on the final day of Laggy's Succinct), so it was quite a shock to me to see so many people expect 8/3 when Cid never got any public admonishment for his 9/2.

Not to blame Cid or anything, of course.

(I still love ya, Alex. <3)

[Tanaka]

Good game all.  Setup was a bit crazy, hard for both sides I think.  At 9-2, the numerical odds are highly against scum, they really cannot make a single mistake and must be actively in control of the game at all times, I feel.  Cop and jailer tilt the odds even more in favor of town - we got REALLY lucky randomly bagging the cop N1 and avoiding the jailer altogether.  And lucky in the first place that the scum team was me (Alex) + Rat.  And lucky that there was so much forum downtime exaggerating the inactivity strategy we went with, and that townies lurked for us.  I do feel we played somewhat well but the win kind of fell into our lap from luck here.  

The setup also worked against town in some ways, with only two scum you aren't likely to get a scum flip until you've nailed the team, which can cause a lot of frustration.  Just generally not a ratio I favor.  Cid's setup worked better because he ran semi-open, the extra knowledge makes a big difference.  I still don't like 9-2 though.  >_>

We also both played pretty lazily, Soppy was right about Mai and Tron about me (read her posts on the last day or two, I think she knew I was scum deep down but couldn't/wouldn't act on it).  But like the old adage says, sometimes you don't have to outrun the lion, just be faster than the guy behind you.  Especially apparent with Leia, where we just sowed a bit of discredit on her and town/Leia herself let it snowball.

[Kilgamayan]

Clearly the solution is to compromise and go 8-2-1. <_<

[Ranmilia]

I'd actually like that better than 9-2 in some ways!  But ideally we'd be able to grab a couple more people.  Or semi-open setup, or at least give scum fakeclaims or something.  As it is, the door's open for something like cop hitting scum night 1, announcing it and then it's easy to find their partner, GG.

[Kilgamayan]

Hmm. Would Tracker or Watcher have been better for balance instead of Cop, do you think?

[Ranmilia]

Probably.  It would open the door to some sort of claim game, at least, whereas Cop/Miller is just sort of a game-deciding dick move either way it goes.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.

This. This. THIS.

Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.

Good job by scum, they definitely did what they had to do and did it quite well. Jump on the biggest lurker, make them look like bigger lurkers than they actually were (or scummier, at least), get town to follow the bait because everyone knows lurkers are bad! The endgame consisting of all the players who were hardest on the lurkers should have been a pretty big hint, but it was hard to see until then (props to those who did), so eh.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Thank you Helga for not being a toolshed (to steal a quote from the immortal Grefter). Scum played well enough to fool chumps I guess. I knew who they were but was already too far gone dig myself out of the lurking hole so I just trolled the topic instead. Well, I enjoyed it at least.

<3 Sopko.

[Hunter Sopko]

You were Leia, Ciato? Ha! I thought that was Zenny

[Luther Lansfeld]

I indeed was the sexer of Harrison Ford.

[Roukanken]

Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.

In my defense, Helga had plenty of other points that got held against her beyond the lurking (ignoring the counter point Maya made against the Li case and spewing nonsense about my absence being 'purposeful', immediately jumping on the case of a dead Townie, which turned out to be a case of unfortunate coincidence). The one thing I'm willing to admit I slipped up on was her shouting at Tanaka for the D2 hammer, a point which I disregarded because, well, I tunnel harder than a Dwarf in Boatmurdered.

But I will admit that given the circumstances I was pretty pissed. After Rin flipped Town I basically gave up in terms of trusting my own opinion with finding scum. On top of that, thanks to the given 9/2 setup, I was paranoid that we were in one of those hopeless situations where even if you find scum you lose to a third-party by default (as happened in my last game). So I'll admit that I didn't want to sit and second-guess myself too much and just went with the general idea that Helga was horribad. Sorry, but a game with three Town lurker lynches Days 1-3 wears at your enthusiasm. >_>

[Excal]

Blarg, should not have stated that I had gotten roleblocked.

Ah well, kudos to scumteam, you guys hustled and you won that one.  I know I also had the two of you set aside as 'town' until mid-late Day 3, where Tanaka started looking off, and then Rin's flip, which, oddly, made me jump on Rat on the night action.  Not sure what was up with Rin, but Leia's attitude certainly didn't help, as it was one of the defining reasons as to why I couldn't be bothered to make sure I got a bit of time to move my vote.  But yeah, Town just collectively shut their heads down on Day 3, and tossing Rin at L-1 with no real hope of anyone else being considered went a long way to sealing the game given the way it rattled morale when Rin turned out to be town.

As for the setup, I guess Jailer instead of Doc works for 9/2, but letting both scum have actions as well as their kill?  Seems a bit excessive.

[Carthrat]

I dunno.

Scum night actions don't really do anything but stop town night actions coming out of nowhere to win the game for town, so stuff like roleblock/rolecop rarely seems excessive to me. The real danger roles are things like godfather/framer/busdriver/stuff like that, things that turn town night actions into double-edged swords.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, yes, player list. I was kinda disappointed at the lack of guesses, because this is the first game in a long time (possibly ever?) where everyone was reasonably guessable and there were no out-of-left-field entrants.

1. Rat - Mai Tohika
2. Yoshi - Tatl Sopko - Helga Pataki
3. Bard - Asuka Langley
4. Roukan - Li Syaoran
5. Alex - Tanaka
6. Excal - Margaret Houlihan
7. Ciato - Princess Leia
8. Alice - Rin Tohsaka
9. Cid - Tron Bonne
10. Glen - Chiaki
11. Xanth - Maya Kumashiro

Ciato: 3/7
Excal: 4/6
Snowfire: 2/7
Scum team: 4/4
NEB: 1/1 >_>

The Day 1 call was made on Tatl because Yoshi had not logged into the DL in 5 days. Sorry, buddy. :<

Metas played to a T:

- Ciato played entirely to the beat of her own drum, was clearly playing based more on having fun than finding scum, and nailed the scum team right before her exit from the game.
- Alice was scum, even though he wasn't.

Excal: I'm being told that the Jailer is a step up from standard Doc in a setup like this, so. I personally think it's a lateral move, but there are evidently those that disagree. Given the lack of use this topic got otherwise, now seems as good a time as any to discuss setup and balance theory.

[Excal]

I can see that, I know I definately tried to use my role in both defensive and offensive manners (and got roleblocked both times it would have been effective, that was frustrating).  In fact, that frustrating thing is one of the quieter things the scum had going for them.  They didn't just out play us, they got lucky and neutralised both town power roles very effectively, which took the cop out of play before it could get started, and ensuring that their nightkills happened.

And that's actually the main reason why I think the double acting was an issue.  It meant that Scum had a lot more information open to them.  Especially in a game where certain people have shown they won't be around, or will otherwise be easy to get lynched.  They had the ability to block and kill two people to screw with actions, as well as a rolecop to figure out a third person's powers, and then lock that person down or kill them.

[Excal]

Oh, also, Kilga.  Can you let us know which people were most often guessed right, and which ones people kept goofing on?

[Ranmilia]

I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.

This. This. THIS.

Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.

Good job by scum, they definitely did what they had to do and did it quite well. Jump on the biggest lurker, make them look like bigger lurkers than they actually were (or scummier, at least), get town to follow the bait because everyone knows lurkers are bad! The endgame consisting of all the players who were hardest on the lurkers should have been a pretty big hint, but it was hard to see until then (props to those who did), so eh.

This.

LAL is a good strategy and I'm sad that some people are probably going to walk away from this game thinking it's not, but don't swallow the scum Kool-aid.  Any strategy is bad when it comes at the expense of rational thought.

Thank you Helga for not being a toolshed (to steal a quote from the immortal Grefter). Scum played well enough to fool chumps I guess. I knew who they were but was already too far gone dig myself out of the lurking hole so I just trolled the topic instead. Well, I enjoyed it at least.

<3 Sopko.

This too.  We did our best to discredit and kill the people who had our number, Leia and Maya in midgame and Helga at the end.  <3 Ciatokins, sorry for being dirty scum this time!

In my defense, Helga had plenty of other points that got held against her beyond the lurking (ignoring the counter point Maya made against the Li case and spewing nonsense about my absence being 'purposeful', immediately jumping on the case of a dead Townie, which turned out to be a case of unfortunate coincidence). The one thing I'm willing to admit I slipped up on was her shouting at Tanaka for the D2 hammer, a point which I disregarded because, well, I tunnel harder than a Dwarf in Boatmurdered.

... Sorry, but a game with three Town lurker lynches Days 1-3 wears at your enthusiasm. >_>

No, she really didn't, her case on Mai was dead on.  Jumping on me for the hammer was fine; the hammer itself I don't think was particularly scummy given the circumstances but it was a good bit of questioning, and she did treat it well and actually think about it. 

As for the lurker lynches, well, here's some scumchat from night 1:
[06:46] <Knight> So yeah
[06:46] <Knight> Activity based play
[06:46] <Knight> Kill active people?
[06:46] <Ranmilia> I agree
[06:46] <Ranmilia> Except that the most active person is Maya
[06:46] <Knight> I was going with killing Asuka because Maya does likie me, and then killing her later
[06:46] <Knight> Because
[06:46] <Ranmilia> That works
[06:46] <Ranmilia> That's what i was thinking too
[06:46] <Knight> Cool

One minute gameplan, kill the talkative people, and bam.

Blarg, should not have stated that I had gotten roleblocked.

I can't say it was a bad move, but it did let us know you had a role, yeah, since the person we blocked N1 didn't mention anything.  As far as setup though I still think this was highly Town favored - it effectively played out as an all-vanilla game, due to massive luck on our parts, with scum down in numbers, and any successful town role use would have spelled instant doom for us.  Even letting the cop live to get one or two clears would be killer.  We did win but it was a razor edge to get there.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, also, Kilga.  Can you let us know which people were most often guessed right, and which ones people kept goofing on?

Most common correct guesses were Xanth and yourself (though one of those that guessed you was Ciato and the other was NEB's PoE powers, so that's a little skewed against you), most common incorrect guess was people thinking Li was Bard. I actually wondered about this, as Alex mentioned Bard told everyone he was Asuka on IRC at one point. But w.evs

Two people swung and missed at Tron, who I knew pre-game would be the hardest to guess as Cid admitted he had never played MegaMan Legends. (Which he actually gave away in his first post; Tron knows German to a degree, almost all of her mechs have German names). Two people also swung and missed at Helga.

[Kilgamayan]

LAL is a good strategy and I'm sad that some people are probably going to walk away from this game thinking it's not, but don't swallow the scum Kool-aid.  Any strategy is bad when it comes at the expense of rational thought.

I'm going to highlight this because it actually fits in well with the SAT prep course I'm teaching right now, and I had been thinking about it throughout the game as people kept buying into blind LAL (and the ones that didn't and decided to look at Rat instead died!).

One of the primary introductory points of this SAT Prep course concerns calculator use. The book we use says that a calculator is a very valuable tool, but it should never ever ever be used as a replacement for thinking. Both standard and graphing calculators have faults: standard calculators don't PEMDAS at all, graphing calculators PEMDAS more than the user expects (-4^2 = -16 being the most obvious example), and neither are much of any good working with fractions. The calculator is there to help you on the test, not take the test for you. Just as in the rest of high school, "the calculator told me so" is not a valid reason for why an answer is correct.

The same thing applies here. LAL is a very useful tool, and if used properly it will force scum to be on their toes if not catch them outright. What LAL is not is an excuse not to try. You still need to think for yourself. LAL is a tool to help build a case, it isn't a case in and of itself. The entire approach to the Rin wagon is pretty much an excellent example of this in action, and Rat really should have been hounded for that quick hammer because there was zero reason to not wait at least a little bit to see if she'd poke her head in again.

[Bardiche]

I can't even remember saying I was Asuka? Whatever. It musta happened after I died anyway. I think it should have been obvious in hindsight anyway, because I live right next to Germany and I've mentioned before that German and French were mandatory classes for me.

Kind of amused I was the D1 shot depite my best attempts to avoid it.

Kinda amused as well that people thought I was Li.

[Roukanken]

3. Bard - Asuka Langley

most common incorrect guess was people thinking Li was Bard

Irony

[Bardiche]

Why is that irony?

[Kilgamayan]

Probably because you spent your entire game admonishing someone that everyone else thought was you.

[Bardiche]

:< I had a good cause.


Also:

(OOC: Anyone else here with ~*MAGIC*~, blame me knowing jack shit about anime.)

Li's first post.