Tsundere Mafia - Game Over

[Carthrat]

Helga- agreed on best bet for scum. Her case on me yesterday was based on my case on Leia the day before, and really her whole spiel on it seemed somewhat hypocritical; everything I said was related to Leia's position as a lurker and her nitpicking over my presentation of that seems like as much an attempt to distance herself from the case by pushing the responsibility onto me. In general she has not shown herself much and when she does show up she tends to skirt around providing her own content; see day 2 ('you guys should watch Mai!'), day 3 (retreading Maya's faulty ground)...

Tron I think at this point is pretty damn townie. I didn't get the case on her from Maya at all, and can't actually put it down to anything but a townie being very stubborn. When it came to laying out cases on Leia and Rin it was also clear she was actually going through it, as seen in her replies when questioned.

Li and Tanaka are where it gets hazy. Overall my impression is that Li's been around more than Tanaka, and his style seems to be one of 'virulent rage' which does usually seem a bit more honest to me. Don't like how he was on me at the end of day 2; I was kinda wondering if he was allied with one lurker or the other and trying to push LAL-style lynches elsewhere, but that's kinda moot now. I'm pretty sure she had more complaints listed against me than how I derided the so-called RL circumstances though, that seems rather forgetful.

Tanaka I'm only rereading now because I seriously had no idea either way. Logic/content wise, I don't like his list yesterday where he rates Tron alongside Helga, she was essentially forced to reply to Maya and calling her too defensive there doesn't sit right with me at that stage of the game, especially since I kinda agree Maya was being ridiculously stubborn then. I also have this feel that he's been rather theatric in his rantings on the state of the game, particularly when talking about how he doesn't know what to do, don't like trying to quantify scumminess on some arbitrary rating thing.

So at the moment I'm pretty much for Helga, and on the fence as far as Li and Tanaka go. I think I like Li slightly more mostly on the basis of presence and a generally honest feeling from him (it's not like I haven't seen townie rage like that before, so). Tanaka's theatrics, on the other hand, are more woe-is-us oriented rather than dammit-where-are-you-scum oriented.

[Helga Pataki]

I can easily say this is my worst game ever, and I definitely should have given a second thought to joining the game on my schedule, but now isn't the time to get emo or make excuses. Lets see if I can't work some magic.

I've been giving this a lot of thought, but I'm more convinced than ever in this line of reasoning. I've hesitated on it, but it follows something I think people have kind of been missing:

Lurking is not scum's only strategy.

If all scum are active, LAL becomes one of their best options.

Scum can make completely reasonable and legitimate arguments too, especially when it's following as simple a logic and hallowed Mafia rule as LAL.

With Houllihan gone, that leaves myself as the only person who's generally been considered a lurker left in the game. Since I know I'm not scum, I know it has to be one of the active people. Who has been pushing LAL the hardest? Well, obvious answer there is Mai. In this situation, who benefits the most from LAL? Scum. The utter confidence always present in Mai's tone belies the results she's achieved so far. Are their methods sound? Yes. So apart from bad/unlucky play, what else can you really attribute it to at this point? She's targeting townies on purpose, since she's scum. That said, I don't know what to make of her Day 1 vote, but considering how long before the clusterfuck happened she laid it, it could be anything so I can't really hold it over her one way or another. Just adding again that she did leave for the rest of the day.

Pretty much been directing town all game. This first post from Day 2

wails on me for a bit, then demands to know why I hadn't considered Leia as a lurker poster, setting her next post:

where she jumps easily onto the LAL case for Leia.

As for a partner, leaning Tanaka. An inactive town allows scum to end the day in the interest of promoting discussion the next day. I can't fault the reasoning, but Tanaka ending the day when he did while things were starting to swing towards Mai didn't sit well with me. Mai did the same thing yesterday, but things were more cut and dry, and I can't fault the reasoning on that one. However, given the results I have to consider this.

I haven't really been able to get a solid handle on Li since I dropped my case on him Day 2. (And yes, Li, you're right in that it was supposed to be Tanaka instead of Tohsaka in that post. Got them confused). The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting? This makes your own accusation:

No answer was given by Tanaka, no 'crap wrong name' from Helga, making this look like a by-the-motions effort to accuse a buddy. Plus she calls him out for the D2 hammer saying 'WHY DID YOU LYNCH LEIA MAI WAS ONLY AT TWO VOTES oh by the way vote mai', when really there wasn't much chance of a non-Leia lynch happening anyway. No-one would have held it against him, so it feels forced.

look bad for YOU, not me. Why vote if you don't care? Why not cast the hammer yourself if you're not going to be concerned with how it ends? On second thought, he's starting to rise over Tanaka...

Tron... I can't say anything bad about. I DID go over Maya's case on her like I said I would (which I still maintain is just doing your duty as a townie), but I agree that Maya was offbase on it.

Mai >> Li >= Tanaka >>> Tron for me at the moment.

Forgive the bad link tags in the Mai case. I forgot how to do the url links.

[Helga Pataki]

Mai did the same thing yesterday, but things were more cut and dry, and I can't fault the reasoning on that one.

Crap, this should read: "Mai did the same thing yesterday, but it was more cut and dry since there was literally no activity at all (voting or otherwise), and I can't fault the reasoning for that one."

[Li Syaoran]

The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting?

Because momentum WASN'T shifting. There were, uh, two people who wanted a Mai lynch. You and Margaret (who weren't around to change your votes AT ALL coming up to deadline) still had votes lying on Leia. Leia wasn't around to pass along a vote, Tanaka had said that he found Mai incredibly Townie, Tron said that Leia had basically given her no choice but to vote her, and Rin was nowhere as usual but had expressed the same desire to lynch Leia as just about everyone else. I knew full well that voting Mai had a near-zero chance of actually changing the lynch so late in the day, but that wasn't enough of a reason to not make an effort.
I said myself at the time:

Probably still too late, but hell if I'm not gonna try.

And honestly, in response to your case, Helga? If all the lurkers are Town, then Town deserves to lose.

Also, you get mad at Carth for jumping onto Leia. Even though, uh, you proceeded to go along with said lynch. You can't say he's bad for leading a lynch which you supported - that's having your cake and eating it.

[Helga Pataki]

The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting?

Because momentum WASN'T shifting. There were, uh, two people who wanted a Mai lynch. You and Margaret (who weren't around to change your votes AT ALL coming up to deadline) still had votes lying on Leia. Leia wasn't around to pass along a vote, Tanaka had said that he found Mai incredibly Townie, Tron said that Leia had basically given her no choice but to vote her, and Rin was nowhere as usual but had expressed the same desire to lynch Leia as just about everyone else. I knew full well that voting Mai had a near-zero chance of actually changing the lynch so late in the day, but that wasn't enough of a reason to not make an effort.
I said myself at the time:

Probably still too late, but hell if I'm not gonna try.

Okay then, so you cared. I still don't see why you hold that against me that I would ask Tanaka for an explanation, especially in light of your "reason enough to make an effort" towards a Mai lynch.

And honestly, in response to your case, Helga? If all the lurkers are Town, then Town deserves to lose.

Also, you get mad at Carth for jumping onto Leia. Even though, uh, you proceeded to go along with said lynch. You can't say he's bad for leading a lynch which you supported - that's having your cake and eating it.

Yes. I'm not going to play it down or say something like "I intended to move my vote" or anything. However, if I think I see something scummy, I'm going to call it, regardless of whether or not I'm guilty of it as well. It does townies no good to not mention points against other people that they themselves are guilty of. Does it affect how people view said case? Maybe. But it's untownie behavior not to mention potential scum behavior, and it's untownie behavior to say that people shouldn't call it how they see it.



I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.

[Li Syaoran]

Okay then, so you cared. I still don't see why you hold that against me that I would ask Tanaka for an explanation, especially in light of your "reason enough to make an effort" towards a Mai lynch.

Because, uh. What is there to explain?
There were about 3 hours left. No-one was around. Leia was nowhere to offer a defense. Ending it early in those circumstances was the most minor of minor offenses, there was an agreement among most that Leia had to be lynched anyway and Tanaka sealed the deal with only a few hours left. It's the fact you get mad at him for it (but then jump conveniently away to Mai when it comes to ACTUAL suspicion) that feels like by-the-motion scum distancing.

I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.

It was as a response to your 'Oh but maybe all the lurkers are Town we'd better start accusing the active players who tried to lynch lurkers!' argument. To that I say 'if scum can post actively, contribute, give opinions and so on without giving scum tells, then they've earned the win'. Scum lurk because lurking means they can refrain from making comments that come back to bite them in the ass later. Town, conversely, wants to talk as much as possible, so if LAL fails because Town is lazy it's not because LAL is wrong, it's because the Town players are bad.

Yes, sometimes the lurkers are Town, and the scum are the active players. At those points, the hope is that you can discern the scummy active players through the scumtells they make - leading bad wagons, being present on mislynches, fallacies etc. - and then lynch them for that because you find the active scumtells being given more threatening than the passive scumtells of other players.

But as for this situation? Both the passive (lack of input) and active (jumping on easy lynches/old cases, holding to Li case and writing off Maya's counter argument with 'it was purposeful', behaviour alongside Tanaka that could easily be buddy-buddy) scumtells, you're ahead of the pack. So I don't see what your 'maybe we shouldn't lynch lurkers' point actually accomplishes other than 'oh noes, don't lynch me just because I'm not posting as much as everyone else!'

[Tanaka]

Okay, so... that sucks, where we at here.  I'll say flat out that yes, this game has frustrated me, I apologize, and on top of that I'm unfortunately pretty busy prepping for a new job this weekend.  But I'll try to stay positive nonetheless.

Helga is definitely my first choice for scum here, everything she's saying is self-serving and carries preemptive "I know I'm scum but don't lynch me!" defensive tones.  In addition to what everyone else has pointed out, her cases and railing against LAL contain a very obvious key fallacy: scum!Mai advocating LAL all game would have no guarantee townies would lurk like Rin and Leia did!  It's a retroactive case that assigns a motive to Mai (preying on poor lurky townies) that would be impossible for scum!Mai to actually have had at the time.  

Not... to say Mai isn't scum though.  Figuring out the partnership is the hard part here.  While I do support Mai's LAL policies I've grown more and more wary of her for not really doing anything but that, and in fact actively being dismissive of other cases and dare I say smug.  This does worry me.  I could definitely see some sort of strategy where they're both scum, Helga lurks, Mai LALs everyone but Helga and now in LYLO they just take opposing sides for a crossfire deal.  

Then there's Li, who's confused me all game.  At first I thought his jumping everywhere was scummy, then I thought it might just be how he rolls, now I'm second guessing that too.  Since the game's relatively low quotas of heat have gone towards lurkers, people lynching lurkers, and people who talk a lot, the middle ground has been the best place to hide - that's where he's sat and he's gotten a mostly free pass on his tendency to change opinions at the drop of a hat.  He's a wildcard and I could see scum!Li partnered with anyone left.  It's hard to say anything concrete on him because he himself hasn't been very concrete - if the game hadn't been infested by lurkers I'd have been trying to ride him hard, but as it is, my efforts towards him got zero attention and then lurkers took priority.  

Tron is the towniest person left, consistently posting and scumhunting.  The things I really had pinging on her were connections to Rin when I assumed Rin was scum.  Since Rin's flipped town, it would make negative sense for scum!Tron to have made those associations.  I don't see any way I'd vote her in front of anyone else now.  So.

[Li Syaoran]

OK, so from what I can see everyone here is willing to agree that Helga is the scummiest player around (bar Helga herself, obviously).

Unless anyone gives an especially good reason not to before then, I'm dropping a vote on her in a few hours. No point in hanging around in a situation like this, because the only point of contention at this juncture seems to be who her buddy is.

[Helga Pataki]

In addition to what everyone else has pointed out, her cases and railing against LAL contain a very obvious key fallacy: scum!Mai advocating LAL all game would have no guarantee townies would lurk like Rin and Leia did!  It's a retroactive case that assigns a motive to Mai (preying on poor lurky townies) that would be impossible for scum!Mai to actually have had at the time.  

LAL is a perfectly defensible position for active scum to take. Lay the argument out there, see who lurks and jump on them if they do. If they're loud enough, then they can get town to follow along with them if the lurkers are egregious enough. How the hell can you argue against it then, barring someone basically coming out and saying they're scum? If they return... oh well. Nothing lost, LAL after all.

So I don't see what your 'maybe we shouldn't lynch lurkers' point actually accomplishes other than 'oh noes, don't lynch me just because I'm not posting as much as everyone else!'

Actually, I checked yesterday (Day 3). My one post was damn close to some. How many did Mai have other than her hammer post? One. It just agreed with Houllihan, says Tanaka isn't looking good but doesn't follow up on it, and then railed on me some more while saying the token "Yep... Rin". Lazy. Leia in Day 2. Leia RETURNS "Pffft. Active lurker". Day 3. Tron asks for time to give Rin a chance to respond. Mai's reaction? Immediate hammer. I think this post from Day 2 sums her attitude up the best:

Leery at people popping up and going 'well Leia might not be scum because scum would not do what she does, it's too easy!' It is pretty much one of the scummiest things you can do and I certainly shall not be going elsewhere today. Mostly looking at Maya going 'surely Leia would have silenced Rin by dying'. It is a pretty hard thing to gauge; Leia probably expected to die on her own soon enough, she could not be thinking at all, she could be waiting for a buddy to slam her, she could be a lot of things. Tron pretty much nails it by pointing out what she is doing is flagrantly anti-town. Kinda want to see how it all goes down before speculating on teams- but a Leia/Rin one isn't one I think is too likely at this point, for all that I think they're both pretty bad.

Not liking Maya much, this is a situation where I think keeping it simple is better and rooting around for theories on contributors instead of those who, well, aren't seems like it's looking right past the obvious. In her case on Tron here-

Ran around like a headless chicken, very pointedly did not respond to my expanded argument (you know, after having hated the earlier form of it at this point), and for playing daddy's little friendly helper since to blend back in. What's this, you just so happen to agree with two of the cases of the day that were made before you posted? What are the odds! Let's not forget that the actual sum content of what she did after getting all flustered - which I think is at least part of why people aren't voting for her? - was actually no better than most. The very large attitude change to the new sweetness does nothing to dissuade me either.

-doesn't have anything solid in it that is screaming 'SCUMMY TRAITS' to me, so I'm not sure why she's still pursuing it as this juncture and certainly don't think it is more deserving than the many other colourful characters I've singled out today.

All it ever is with her is "DO NOT LOOK AT THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN! Look at the obvious! It's so obvious! Obvious!"

If it's so obvious, why has she been 100% wrong up until now?.

Li, there's no need to rush this. At least let Mai and Tron comment some more, even if they haven't come back after a few hours pass. Game WILL end if you lynch me, but if we can somehow turn this around and find scum, more content from them would benefit tomorrow. Not that it helps, but I'm Vanilla Town.

[Li Syaoran]

Helga, you realise this LAL problem of yours wouldn't have emerged if we didn't have a game were, uh, about half the players could be classified as lurking. Saying right now that if you're right and scum really ARE the active players, then I'm willing to accept we lost thanks to generally sucking (fingers will be pointed mainly in the directions of Leia and Rin on this count).

Besides that, you shouting at Carth for posting only twice yesterday (when the day was cut short by a lynch that no-one had reason to argue against and Rin was never coming around to defend herself anyway) is very pot/kettle/black. Your post, in contrast, was 'Hey, let's go pick up the case of the dead Townie! No-one can get mad at me for that, because Maya was following it and she was Town!'

If you insist, I'll hold off on it until tomorrow morning. That should give Tron and Mai more time to contribute, and if there are no objections by then I'm dropping a vote. That's of course assuming they don't appear and give consent to the idea beforehand while I'm still around, in which case I don't intend to make this day linger when it's clear everyone here wants a Helga lynch.

[Tron Bonne]

I'm still fine with a Helga lynch. There are too many things in her Mai breakdown that read false to me. Characterizing Mai's entire game as LAL, for one. Mai invokes it a lot but it's not been her sole reason to go after people--Leia was lynched in large part due to what she said when she did post, remember. If she had attempted to contribute instead of actively trolling the game, she wouldn't have been such a magnet. Mai mentioned Leia's attitude as being part of the problem when she cast her vote, yet Helga still doesn't seem to notice this (despite quoting Mai posts that say as much). Speculation about scum stealth-hammering Leia to save Mai doesn't really scan either; after what Leia did, I don't think there really was a realistic chance of someone other than her getting lynched that day. Two votes on Mai wouldn't really have been that much of a threat.

Confidence, what Tanaka refers to as "smugness," being used as a demerit isn't something I buy either. I've found this is a pretty necessary approach in mafia to get people to listen to opinions regardless of alignment. And yes, Mai's lynch choices have been wrong so far. The thing is, so have everyone else's.

There's also Helga's continued reliance on mere suggestions along the lines of "Maybe Mai deliberately missed the end of day one." This is impossible to prove; I really only consider absences stretching towards a day or more suspicious given the way this game has gone; and I just plain don't think it's true in this case (I hate to bring this point up because it invokes an advantage Rat and no one else has--not being anonymous--but day one ended very early in the A.M. Oz time. Not Posting at Five in the Morning isn't really a fair accusation in any circumstances, I think). Ultimately I just don't buy the case and it feels desperate.

I am fine with casting votes at this point.

(Addendum: Some minor historical revisionism on Tanaka's part in his last post. Yesterday he stated I hadn't done anything but defend myself against Maya, while today he applauds my dedicated scumhunting (and says that his suspicion of me was only ever based on Rin connections). People are allowed to change their minds and all, but this is a pretty abrupt turnaround. Given that Tanaka was the last of us to make his first post of the day, he had plenty of chance to see where the wind was blowing, cut his losses and tailor his opinions accordingly to save face in the event of a potential day five. But that's something to consider for tomorrow if there is one.)

[Carthrat]

Helga's been riding me for trying to LAL since day 3, which has been entirely unjustified; it is, I think, one of the strongest methods of scumhunting, there is usually very little reason to not do it. That she was willing to leap on me right after the Leia lynch for this kinda implies to me now that she knows it's going to fail, and thus is trying to build cred by attacking it's evangelists rather than contemplate it herself. That she DID vote Leia also implies she has no real problem with it as a method and is willing to use it for convenience, too.

Also

Leia in Day 2. Leia RETURNS "Pffft. Active lurker"

Are you seriously contesting that she posted anything remotely worthwhile?

As for being wrong, it kinda happens sometimes. Still think it's the best option available in games like this, would still do it again in similar circumstances. Other suspicious circumstances aside, going 'it is CLEARLY scummy to LAL in a game where lurkers are scum!' ignores that town totally doesn't know that, and that any quality town is going to crack down on it, and that most of the time all scum would need to do is sit back, watch, and build cred on either tagging on later or attacking it's proponents.

No issue casting this now as just about everyone seems in agreement.

##Vote: Helga

[Helga Pataki]

As for being wrong, it kinda happens sometimes. Still think it's the best option available in games like this, would still do it again in similar circumstances. Other suspicious circumstances aside, going 'it is CLEARLY scummy to LAL in a game where lurkers are scum!' ignores that town totally doesn't know that, and that any quality town is going to crack down on it, and that most of the time all scum would need to do is sit back, watch, and build cred on either tagging on later or attacking it's proponents

Yes, because attacking the main anti-lurking proponent has brought me tons and tons of town cred. That is clearly what I should have done, if I were scum. Thanks. Did I ever say I was pro-lurking? No. Again, I have the unfair advantage of knowing I'm town, so I know it HAS to be two of the active people. Unfortunately, I put myself in a bad position going into today. My fault, yeah, but I'll accept my failures. If you're town, Mai, for the love of god, don't play off yours like they were nothing.

Nothing to lose at this point. If I'm wrong, then scum can have their pick on who to lynch. 

##Vote: Mai

[Li Syaoran]

Well, there are two ways this can work out. Either Helga is scum grasping at Mai by claiming LAL is exactly what will get Town killed, or (in the event that Mai is scum) Carth has successfully proven that MAIDENKAMPF is not the brilliant Town strategy he thinks it is bcause scum can ride it all the way to lynch.

Either way, I win, and right now option 1 seems several times more likely, so ##Vote: Helga. If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.

[Tron Bonne]

Do or die time.

##Vote: Helga

Hammer. Stop talking.

[Alice Margatroid]

Poor Alice. Your dolls never knew what hit them. I guess Shanghai and Hourai have been taking yandere lessons from Flandre or something...

Helga Pataki (Vanilla Townie) has been lynched!

Li Syaoran and Tron Bonne (Vanilla Townies) have lost upon parity! Mai Tokiha (Scum Roleblocker) and Tanaka (Scum Rolecop) have won the game!

[Li Syaoran]

Helga.

I am disappoint.

[Bardiche]

So what was with all the hardcore lurking going on, Town?

(Asuka, TOWN COP here.)

[Alice Margatroid]

Since everyone has flipped, you can all see the setup for yourselves. (Asuka was a Sane Cop.) I admit I was surprised at the number of eyebrows the two-scum setup seemed to raise from both sides of the game - this setup is Cid's Anonyrandom with the Doctor changed to a Jailer, and no one complained about that setup that I ever saw. Live and learn, I guess.

Scum were allowed to each take a night action in addition to having a kill, though one of them still had to actually go on the kill (since there was a town roleblocking power in play).

Night 1

Scum Kill: Asuka Langley (Tanaka) (Success!)
Mai block: Helga Pataki
Tanaka Cop: Maya Kumashiro (Result: Vanilla)

Asuka Cop: Li Syaoran (Result: Town) (Killed!)
Margaret Jail: Tron Bonne (Success!)

Night 2

Kill: Maya (Tanaka) (Success!)
Roleblock: Margaret (Success!)
Rolecop: Rin (Vanilla)

Margaret Jail: Maya (Blocked!)

Night 3

Kill: Margaret (Tanaka) (Success!)
Roleblock: Margaret (Success!)
Rolecop: Helga (Vanilla)

Margaret Jail: Mai (Blocked!) (Killed!)

Not that it ended up mattering, but my private tie-breaker decision on Margaret getting blocked was Mai submitting her choice first that night.

Player flips will come later, I need to run out for a bit.

[Li Syaoran]

The irony of Carth using MAIDENKAMPF to win as scum is still hilarious.

And sorry Bard I had good intentions really ;_;

[Bardiche]

Yes, yes, of course you had. My D1 strategy was to blow up a case of derp SO HARD that people'd pass me off as derpugaloo for the rest of the game until my elegant reveal.

Unfortunately it seems scum were not impressed.

[Hunter Sopko]

So what was with all the hardcore lurking going on, Town?

(Asuka, TOWN COP here.)

Helga here. Baaaaad, baaaad timing for the most part. Horrible sleep schedule, papers due and massive forum downtime when I WAS awake.

Helga.

I am disappoint.

About what?

Hat's off to scum. Good job. Your plan did pretty much EXACTLY what you intended it to do. LAL, let any townies assaulting you for it fall on their own swords and sweep up the remnants. Took a lot of luck to have that many lurkers in town, but props anyway. Good job on Tanaka overturning the Mai train by hammering, then getting people to ignore the relevance of that move. I was planning on changing my vote to Mai when I got back too... but saw the day had already ended ;-;

3 hours is still a long time in Mafia, Li<G>

[Xanth]

Yeah, so I have no idea how you didn't lynch Rat. He just couldn't possibly be that stupid in his implementation of LAL (and I'm hoping his little epilogue here will be to teach people proper LAL, because I'm sure he didn't believe what he was saying at the time). Tanaka I guessed on day three when he suddenly came out in full support of Rat in an equally obvious manner, and was only my secondary pair guess to Kilga at the time because I just couldn't shake Tron's day one play from my mind. But yeah, I was actually wrong about Tron, so I can't be completely 'told you so' on it.

Kilga: if it is the same as that game except those two changes (doctor -> jailer, kill++), then you've upped scum's power by a fair chunk in comparison. But eh, it's plausible that scum were underpowered in the original.

Sopko ninja: man, you were my light of hope after I died. I figured that surely with the evidence that clear you'd be able to convince people, but apparently not.

[Li Syaoran]

About what?

If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.

Honestly, the main reason Cartanaka got away with what they did was because Town decided not to be around. Leia and Rin in particular were asdfghjkl.

And gdit, why is it every time I get a stupid gut hunch and people convince me away from it, I turn out to be right? -_-

[Carthrat]

Eh.

I doubt I'd have been that confident if I was town.

But I'd probably have gone for the same lynches in the end. Holy shit how do you play with lurkers like that, it's just impossible...