Item-whores Tournament

[DjinnAndTonic]

Weird thought that hit me during chat. The idea being that there's a few PCs that pretty heavily dependent on limited item resources and that makes them interesting to me. So they should fight or something.

The idea isn't that they are just using items with an item command, but that they have special skills that let them utilize items better than other PCs (in most cases).

Godlike (I guess?)
Cecilia Lyn Adelhyde (WA1/ACF) vs. Rikku (Common Steals, FFX)
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Seeq Ranger (FFTA2)

So godlike gives us a Mystic-user who hardly needs Mystic, and three really devastating Status- and Item-damage- slingers (Two of which are Generics!).

Heavy-ish
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1)
Lilika Eleniak (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR)

This division gives us some interesting interp calls with whether or not Klein's alchemy would count as hitting through Shadow's Inviz and Mirage Edges. Another alchemist, Nikki, is all about pure damage while her opponent is more about infinite healing (and probably doesn't get much from Mystic).

Middling
Meru (Common spell items, LoD) vs. Yuffie Kisaragi (Throw materia, FF7)
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5)

Meru and Yuffie might be worthy of the above division, but whatever, it's not like there were a lot of options and they were the borderliners here. No clue how much the Throw materia even helps Yuffie, but it might be nice for her to get some use out of it. Jude is probably the first Mystic-user to have any real use for it so far!

Light, or something like it
Edward (FF4s) vs. Chemist (FFT)
Virginia Maxwell (WA3) vs. Jessica Philiomele (MK:AoAR)

Epic slapfight between SALVE and Generi McGenericman. Also, Virginia likes having Mystic Berries/Force Carrots/Spell Gems. Can Jessica's healing keep up?

JOKE division!
Jogurt vs. P4 Fox

Best fight ever? Does P4 Fox stand a chance?!

Yeah, I dunno, I think I'm hyper.

Short form:

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2)

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1)
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR)

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7)
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5)

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT)
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR)

[superaielman]

Godlike:
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2)- Ranger goes first and does his usual brutal overkill nonsense.

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1)
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR)- Blitzing style PC's make Lilka run screaming, and this is no different. ID or damage both work here.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7)- Should just OHKO Meru outright. If she doesn't, she should kill with a limit+physical.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT)- Edward can't even come close to handling auto potion.
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR)- Strong kneejerk.

[Taishyr]

Short form:

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Petrify, wanders off.
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2) ...I consider Gadgeteer the better dueler, but yeah, Ranger's faster and just lands his overkill damage.

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1)
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR) - Clubs to death.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7) - uh. Kneejerk Meru.
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5) - I HAVE WON WITH FF5 CHEMIST IN GODLIKE FFA. This is more to say that he's a Heavy than a Middle; way too goddamn many permabuff stall options. Jude can't kill before Chemist goes, Chemist lays down status and wanders off.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT) - Auto-Potion.
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR) - Also kneejerk.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike:
What.

Heavy:
More what.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7) - Meru PDur.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT) - Auto-Potion > Edward damage.

[Pyro]

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX): Oh god, Rikku with status items and stuff.
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2)

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1): Don't think Shadow could stop Sleep, so yeah.
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR): Quicken boosts ber speed to above Nikki's and her evade, and thereafter it is healing +evade vs. no healing.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7): Goes first and Meru can't really recover from that? Eh. Not sure here.
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5): I'm pretty sure Chemist was a Godlike... Haste, fullhealing, HP doubling, and all kinds of silly stuff.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT): Auto-Potion and eventually double-crits even if Edward had healing?
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR): Lots of healing to use.

[Talaysen]

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2)

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1) - Interp call what?  Items are distinctly not physical.
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR) - Panther Beat + Bear Charge 2HKOs.  Lilka can't buff enough to stop it in two turns.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7) - Uh... probably?  And you couldn't find someone who has arguably legal items here?  >.>
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5) - Division fail?

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT)
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR)

[Magic Fanatic]

Short form:

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Fast non-magical fatal status does not end well for little Miss Geass.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7) - Ow.
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5)  - Slaughter much?

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT) - Chemist can't be immune to Sleep and Confuse at the same time, while Edward can very easily switch weapons to capitalize on that.  Call me crazy for the status hype, if you will.
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR) - I'm guessing Mystic -> Full Carrot then Mystic -> Mega Berry isn't worth it at all, then, since the higher FP gives Ginny more defense and damage?  Okay, not much, but every little bit.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:

Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Assuming we give both the full extent of their item skillsets, um yeah Rikku is pure evil.

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1) - I can't vote, but I thought Klein's stuff was freaking -magical-.
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR) - Blitz.

Middle:

Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7) - Yuffie immunes Meru's damage that's worth noting to chip through limits (common items in LoD are -bad- damage DL-wise), and I verily suspect she may 2HKO Meru through Dragoon even. The 50% healing doesn't save Meru here.
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5) - FF5 Chemist in Middle is idiotic, he's a Heavy champ-level dueller.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT) - FFT Chemist isn't Light either. Auto-Potion and FFT equips > Light as a rule of thumb. Doesn't help that all forms of Edward utterly suck against the combo.
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR) - Why is Jessica in Light again? Regardless, Thunder Hammer seals Gatling and Mystic, which means Virginia's stuck with a terrible physical and not being able to evade. That's working well.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX)

Heavy:
Shadow (FF6) vs. Klein (AI1)- Yeah, absolutely no reason that Klein's stuff wouldn't go through Image.
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR)- Wait, Nikki has something that allows her to use items better? I mean, probably some Item Up or Item Quick skill, but the whole MK cast has those. Why was she chosen? That said, gut reaction is that one buff isn't doing it for Lilka and Nikki blitzing.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7)- Yeah, Meru has nothing extra for items besides Magic! That said...uh, this may come down to what's allowed? Can Meru use storebought items? Can Meru use OPB items that carry over between battles? If so to the second part, she's smashes badly. Pscyhe Bomb X is absurd damage, and 3 turns of Physical Immunity is evil, evil, evil. Buff->Buff->Smite. Which in turn makes me think can Meru use items but Yuffie just uses Throw? Little strange, but Meru is faster turn 1 so unless Yuffie had solid status items (maybe???) Meru should take it. Way too much of this tourney could come down to "Who has status items"
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5)- Yeah, FF 5 Chemist is great.

Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT)
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR)- Lack of definition hurts this tournament. I'm assuming that Mystic users aren't limited to just using Mystic for eitems since it would be weird to let Meru use them freely? And yet, if Virgnia is stuck with Mystic, Jessica just Silences her and all of Virginia's skills besides basic physicals are sealed I think? And Jessica using items freely? Or no? It's weird that she got worse apparentally.

[Talaysen]

Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR)- Wait, Nikki has something that allows her to use items better? I mean, probably some Item Up or Item Quick skill, but the whole MK cast has those. Why was she chosen? That said, gut reaction is that one buff isn't doing it for Lilka and Nikki blitzing.

Nikki's skills run off of items.

Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR)- Lack of definition hurts this tournament. I'm assuming that Mystic users aren't limited to just using Mystic for eitems since it would be weird to let Meru use them freely? And yet, if Virgnia is stuck with Mystic, Jessica just Silences her and all of Virginia's skills besides basic physicals are sealed I think? And Jessica using items freely? Or no? It's weird that she got worse apparentally.

I figured Mystic users just get to use Mystic items, since that's at least arguably DL-legal.  Meru I figured was just shoehorned in (with "common spell items") for no real reason.

Regarding Jessica: See above note about Nikki.

That said, I do agree with you that the tournament needed more definition (and should've been thought out more since 7 arguably DL-legal item users (in some sense) and 1 who just randomly gets items for no reason is silly and confusing, not to mention completely unfair).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Meru's claim to items is probably about as strong as Rikku's to me! (At least hers are storebought and reflect her stats.) Miranda would have been a better choice since her MAT is slightly higher (strengthening the claim), but yeah, who cares, it's Djinn's call.

The tournament seems perfectly understandable to me; you adopt the interps that Djinn lays out whether you normally take them or not, and vote. Will vote this afternoon, myself, when I have a little more time.

[Taishyr]

What Elf said, yeah. I get the point and I was working with it (Though I said "petrify grenades" on kneejerk; those may not be common stealable? I forget.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Define "common". <_< Nothing is really stolen from more than 2-3 enemies in FFX, so nothing ranks as especially common to me! (Petrify Grenades are stolen from an enemy on the Djose Highroad, an enemy in the Calm Lands, and an enemy in the City of Dying Dreams, none of them super-common but none truly rare, either.) But if you mean "if you know the enemy to steal from it is common to get" then sure.

Yeaah, not much respect for DL items Rikku hype. It really should be obvious by now!

Godlike:
Cecilia (WA) vs. Rikku (FFX): Woo.
Gadgeteer (WAXF) vs. Ranger (FFTA2): Gadgeteer is -also- annoying in the DL (yay spending ridiculous amounts of money AND relying on a mastery skill!). Much better claim to the legality of its annoying tricks, though.

Heavy:
Lilika (WA2) vs. Nikki (MK:AoAR): Deathy death death. No, Lilka can not buff evade fast enough to deal with blitzes.

Middle:
Meru (LoD) vs. Yuffie (FF7): Unsure if Meru has a 2HKO here with items. If she does, she wins (isn't being OHKOed), if not, she loses. I'm assuming "common items" means storebought and not crazy stuff like Psyche Bomb X which one-shots average and means Meru is misranked.
Jude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5): Not sure where FF5 chemist hype in the DL is coming from, honestly? His only really good tricks are confuse and berserk (latter only against people with terrible physicals). Jude blocks confuse and Chemist has nothing else, that's assuming you even allow the cat 2 stuff, and anyone allowing Dark Matter mixes needs a boot to the head.

Wait, looking at it more closely, category 2 allows a Protect/Shell/Regen buff. That may well be enough to beat Jude. Do I allow it? Mmm... doubt it. But at least the result is believable now. EDIT: Oh, and Drink, which is definitely legal and I just forgot about it.


Light:
Edward (FF4) vs. Chemist (FFT): lulz Edward. Also, he got put in a division with three Middles, apparently (okay, Virginia is a pretty bad Middle, but still).
Virginia (WA3) vs. Jessica (MK:AoAR): Silence that isn't physically evadable. Yeah.

[Pyro]

ude (WA4) vs. Chemist (FF5): Not sure where FF5 chemist hype in the DL is coming from, honestly?

Drink command. All kinds of nastiness from that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, I totally forgot about that. That does win this match, yes. (Although I stand by the at High Heavy hype, there are better buff-healers in heavy still, Chemist is below average in HP/speed slightly and has shit for statusblockers.)

[Talaysen]

Meru's claim to items is probably about as strong as Rikku's to me! (At least hers are storebought and reflect her stats.) Miranda would have been a better choice since her MAT is slightly higher (strengthening the claim), but yeah, who cares, it's Djinn's call.

Rikku still has Mix and aren't some items unique to her?  I'll admit I actually didn't notice the "Common Steals" part, but I think I'll agree on that.

[Taishyr]

Giant Drink + Speed Drink + X Potion Mix + whatever elementals he wants to be absorbing + ID immunity + Kiss of Blessing against mages + Category 2 stuff, if you allow it = fairly damn good healer. *shrug*

[DjinnAndTonic]

As for divisions:
I came up with in less than 10 minutes, in chat. I also ran the entire suggested divisions by chat before posting with no objections.

Also, yeah, Edward probably should have been in Light by himself, but that's no fun.

As for FF5 Chemist:
Holy crap. I really should've known better.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Tal: Mix has unique stuff, yes. Use does not; everyone can use that to the same effectiveness. Not that it really matters to me, non storebought (or at least -very- easily available, like WA3 Potion Berries, say) items just aren't legal to me in general.

Tai: None of that matters if she doesn't get that first turn, and a number of enemy turn-2 tricks can't be stopped (status in general, instant death that is attached to heal-locking/2HKOing damage). I'm not saying she isn't Heavy, mind, just not seeing this champ hype at all.

[Taishyr]

Turn 2 tricks eat Kiss of Blessing. Yeah, he/she is a bit slow, and that's his major weakness.

On the other hand, more tricks than Rosa IMO, she did just fine. >_>

[Dark Holy Elf]

Kiss of Blessing totally fails against anyone with even a 5HKO regular physical. Berserk AND Haste on the enemy at once is quite potent, more than tripling the enemy's offence, and Chemist will have to take a round and a half of said offence (the second round being softened to a half after a haste or protect buff). Don't get me wrong, people with sub-5HKO physicals exist and are another thing Chemist spoils (unless one-shotted), but against the majority of enemies trying turn-2 strategies in Heavy, it's not going to work. Take someone like Hiro, whose physical is probably about in the 5HKO ballpark. It might even be a bit lower! But Hiro's going to open with Concussion Sword which does extra damage on a miss, and enough to heal-lock for Triple Sword against subpar durability. Chemist -must- use Kiss of Blessing or the next Concussion Sword/Triple Sword kills, and then Hiro just batters down with regular attacks, and even has a triple coming soon. This is NOT someone who particularly plays to Chemist's weaknesses, and nor is he an amazing Heavy (decent one certainly). Heavies who I consider playing to Chemist's weaknesses are all the ones with turn 1 statuses, and there are quite a lot of those. If you allow Running Shoes to block statuses but not apply Auto-Haste then FF5's list of statusblockers for non-Dancers expands from "crap" (Poison and Zombie) to actually hitting a few things that matter (paralyse/sleep/slow/stop) but still misses a bunch of big ones like death/stone/confuse/berserk.

Rosa has a host of turn-1 statuses, Chemist only has one that gives the opponent a monstrous physical (and therefore renders it situational). Rosa also gets a few extra statusblockers (stone is the big one, confuse is good too. Death is debatable). In exchange for this Chemist gets... an effective Protect buff, mostly (and Haste, but eh, Rosa has Slow which works on most things and accomplishes the same thing). I think the DL has shown time and time again that that's a losing trade, and Rosa is regarded a weak Heavy champ anyway. <.<

I'm not sure why I care this much about this. DL theory is fun.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Actually, I'm bored, so FF5 Chemist via this week's Heavy!

vs. Marcello: Loss. Wave of Ice dispels all Chemist's tricks and Marcello does damage on the same turn, so Chemist can't do any "stall for doubles by repeatedly using haste" tactics. Status is obviously out.
vs. Augustine: Win?. I'm actually not certain. On the face of things this is a simple haste-heal victory. But... Augustine has that parry nonsense. Sure, it's not going to kill on counters due to the buffs being set up, but Chemist damage is bad even when it's not being blocked most of the time. I -assume- Chemist has enough resources for this (that normally useless +10 level buff actually helps!) but I'm not certain.
vs. Marle: Loss: Siren inflicts Stop 50% of the time, lasting some ludicrous duration, and nothing Chemist can do will stop that.
vs. Freyjadour: Win: Even if Freyjadour goes first, what is he going to do? Haste/heal from there, and the buffs mean any prince argument for hax on his physical in a long fight is out.
vs. Rayquaza: Loss: Dragon Dance is just way too good. After one use, Chemist MUST use a defensive buff because haste won't let him lap, so he does the HP doubling. Ray can keep piling on Dragon Dances until Hyper Beam is doing 400+ damage, which admittedly won't kill directly through Protect and doubled HP, but will when used with Dragon Claw on a double. Gets worse in gen4 where Dragon Claw itself is boosted by Dragon Dance.
vs. Rapp: Loss. Death Sword.
vs. Edna: Win. Edna can't one-round or anything, so Chemist has time to get set up.
vs. Garan: Win. Garan sucks, but even if he didn't, Chemist nulls both his biggest tricks (MP draining and poison; yes, aa use for the Angel Robe!).

50/50 record which I'd kneejerk as being about typical for Chemist in the division (maybe normally a bit higher? Not much though).

[Taishyr]

Oh, right, Rosa status respect. I always forget about that. Yep, shutting up now. <_<

[Dark Holy Elf]

If you're implying that you disrespect FF4 status then I have -nothing- against that! Plenty of valid reasons for it (lulz entire final dungeon being status immune outside two enemies). That said, Rosa without respect for her status is not a great Heavy either.

[hinode]

Just to be pedantic, Lamia's Tiara is storebought and blocks confuse for Chemist and every other FF5 class that gets mage equips. Bard's Robe similarly blocks Silence, not that Chemist ever has any use for that.

Drain Kiss + buffs should be an easy win against Augustine if you allow Category 2 stuff. If you don't, well there's no real case for Chemist to be better than low heavy.

Also, Lamia's Kiss (unblockable confuse, Category 1, missing from stat topic for some reason) should beat Ray I think. Ray needs to both survive its own DD Hyper Beam and immediately 3-2. If it picks anything other than a physical attack Chemist gets buff time, and if it picks a magic move Ray's damaging itself without even breaking free of confuse.