Season 62, Week 2: Kuja vs. Persephone in a prettiness contest

[Taishyr]

Banon uses MF6 form, I think about the match no longer.

(This is a good point, though. HEAL SLAPFEST)

[Talaysen]

Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK): Don't see timed cards being countered in general, so probably Flay. Might need a closer look though.

That might be because timed cards can't be countered in-game.

To be more specific, timed cards can be countered but the counter target doesn't exist because it wasn't an attack by any character, so nothing happens.

GUST CODING

[Pyro]

Can't Flay just Raiden Charge -> OHKO Lute anyway?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think he just misses that, though it depends on what averages you use in both games. Doesn't really matter anyway.

[Pyro]

Nah. Lute's pdur is that of a Fire Emblem mage (~.64), so as long as the damage average for MK is ~1500 or below Flay should OHKO after Raiden charge.

Go go FE mage durability.

[superaielman]

Dhyer: Adray has freeze (Useless against Meru), Confusion (Will be blocked. Granted, it runs off his best skill), and silence. I don't think he has any thing to really threaten her with there.

[Pyro]

Godlike:

4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5): Boom. Superior on durabilty/damage (/speed?) even without the overkill.
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG): Think his victory on durability seals it?
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN): Apparently Lugia can't 2HKO here, which means Arnaud Slows down Lugia and gets in 3 turns. This isn't enough to ID Lugia but it *IS* enough to Sleep -> ID/otherwise beat.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3): Halve status -> Transform into a better boss than Gilgamesh, I guess.

Heavy:

Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3): Augustine is outclassed here. Marello is a competent boss.
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5): I guess Marle wins this via the haste-healing shenanigans.
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1): ID. Bah humbug.
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2): Was she magic? Yeah I'm gonna check later but going with others. Edit: Snow corrects me. Thanks.

Middle:

3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3): I suppose more healing suffices? I'm really not sure here.
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9): Better statwise I think?
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1): Ouch. Sorry Sara. Copper Flesh lock.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK): FE mage physical durabilty is painful.

Light:

4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1): KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [/obligaroty]
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig)
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8)
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2): Was she magic? Yeah I'm gonna check later but going with others.

Goddammit people, Edna has a 3HKO physical, better overall durability (particularly, her mdur is better than his pdur) and speed than Garan. That's more than enough to own him.

[OblivionKnight]

Hotoke Garan has 6980 HP and deals 380 damage with Black Vortex

Edna has 1670 HP and deals 85 damage with Black Hole...

He has well over 4 times the health and deals well over 4 times the damage.  Seems pretty straightforward from that angle (i.e., the one I take!).

Otherwise...mmm...

Edna is 26 agility (below average for that point - granted, fast recharge but slower first action than this indicates), physical dealing 70 damage.  Average HP are listed as 192, although the party used ends up being below average (Mao and Slim Hilda).  Ricardo's about average, and he is a little over 210 or so at that point, so she has a barely 4-shotability vs. Garan.  Average damage...probably faces around 100-150 or so per character.  I know she can be wrecked in a single combo pretty quickly.  

Garan faces 610 HP and 340 damage in the Hotoke form.  He's average, so faster than Edna at base.  

2.05x HP for Garan taken at that value.   62% damage with magic.

1.366 HP for Edna (assuming average damage 125 per character).  36% damage with her physical, assuming 192 HP.  

Taken at those numbers, Garan wins it.  This changes heavily based on what you take against them, so either way seems pretty fair (more stuff held against Garan?  Less taken against Edna?  etc.)  

Defenses aren't factored into durability, but I believe both forms are pretty close to average, so it shouldn't make a huge difference.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Hotoke Garan has 6980 HP and deals 380 damage with Black Vortex

Edna has 1670 HP and deals 85 damage with Black Hole...

He has well over 4 times the health and deals well over 4 times the damage.  Seems pretty straightforward from that angle (i.e., the one I take!).

Otherwise...mmm...

Edna is 26 agility (below average for that point - granted, fast recharge but slower first action than this indicates), physical dealing 70 damage.  Average HP are listed as 192, although the party used ends up being below average (Mao and Slim Hilda).  Ricardo's about average, and he is a little over 210 or so at that point, so she has a barely 4-shotability vs. Garan.  Average damage...probably faces around 100-150 or so per character.  I know she can be wrecked in a single combo pretty quickly. 

Garan faces 610 HP and 340 damage in the Hotoke form.  He's average, so faster than Edna at base. 

2.05x HP for Garan taken at that value.   62% damage with magic.

1.366 HP for Edna (assuming average damage 125 per character).  36% damage with her physical, assuming 192 HP. 

Taken at those numbers, Garan wins it.  This changes heavily based on what you take against them, so either way seems pretty fair (more stuff held against Garan?  Less taken against Edna?  etc.) 

Defenses aren't factored into durability, but I believe both forms are pretty close to average, so it shouldn't make a huge difference.

SH2's boss stat topics are generally a thing I disagree with, being both underlevelled and, as far as I've seen, not factoring either offensive boosts your party can have (Warlock Earrings, Demon Earrings etc) nor buffs and combos. I already do factor these against Edna, of course (although she's lucky that she doesn't have to face the damage boosters, I think), and I think Dhyer -does- factor combos into SH3 boss durability while not doing the same to SH2 boss durability in spite of combos being easier to come by and setup freely in SH2 than 3. Not to mention that's Garan 3, which... eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh, not giving the third, optional, already dead guy form (GHOST VINSFELD HYPE YESYESYES) credit there. To add insult to injury, Hotoke Garan is an endgame sidequest, and those almost uniformly have to deal with Seraphic Radiance evil, which becomes available as soon as they open up. <_<

EDIT: Not to mention all Garan forms have to face the fury of SH2 full MT buffs and a higher damage average -in a vacuum- (running off against roughly the same boss HP scale as SH3) while Edna faces only ST buffs at the point she's fought.

[OblivionKnight]

The levels for Hotoke Garan are 50.  Nicholai is at 33.  The endgame levels are 55, so 50 makes sense for me for Hotoke Garan.  The damage average of 340 is endgame level (358) and does not take into account Jutendouji, Dark Seraphim, Great Question, Ultimate Weapons, etc. (and those alone drop the average lot), due to them...uh...not being available yet.  I know Fenrir personally did take a strong set-up into the averages for damage for the bosses.  I wouldn't consider the notes for Hotoke Garan underleveled (in which case, if you do, then that's odd, as most people view 55 as too high for endgame, so....honestly, I'd also call 19 at Edna a little low, and the SH3 notes I'd call lower in general, but I digress), and there is some consideration for higher damages in there.  Now, combos are not included, as far as I know, but those should cancel out for both bosses (I know I killed Edna in a single combo, so combos hurt both their durability about equally - granted, in terms of set-ups, yes, Hotoke Garan has more to be held against him, and it does depend on when you do.

Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time.  Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan.  Damage vs. Edna...I'll go pull my old save, but I'm fairly certain average damage is 100-150 or so, as noted previously.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The levels for Hotoke Garan are 50.  Nicholai is at 33.  The endgame levels are 55, so 50 makes sense for me for Hotoke Garan.  The damage average of 340 is endgame level (358) and does not take into account Jutendouji, Dark Seraphim, Great Question, Ultimate Weapons, etc. (and those alone drop the average lot), due to them...uh...not being available yet.  I know Fenrir personally did take a strong set-up into the averages for damage for the bosses.  I wouldn't consider the notes for Hotoke Garan underleveled (in which case, if you do, then that's odd, as most people view 55 as too high for endgame, so....honestly, I'd also call 19 at Edna a little low, and the SH3 notes I'd call lower in general, but I digress), and there is some consideration for higher damages in there.  Now, combos are not included, as far as I know, but those should cancel out for both bosses (I know I killed Edna in a single combo, so combos hurt both their durability about equally - granted, in terms of set-ups, yes, Hotoke Garan has more to be held against him, and it does depend on when you do.

Mind, I'm talking underlevelledness as a general thing, not specifically for Hotoke - 50 is a reasonable level to take him at, although I think I was 52 - but I hardly ever switch parties in SH games as a rule of thumb. A level or two miiiiiiiiightbe in order to account for Seraphic Radiance, but that's not the matter, really (mainly, it may even be a distinction between just using your -main- party for averages, which is my general take, or using all the members, used or unused, which brings averages down due to benched members getting less XP. Typically, with a low-rotation party, the averages pan out such that even the likes of Geppetto routinely outpace just about all bosses in SH2 if he's one of your main contenders). For final weapons, -some- should be available by the time you face Hotoke (Jutendouji and Kurando's final weapon are obviously -not- available, but Yuri's weapon, or Karin's, or Joachim's or Anastasia's... yeah, they're obtainable by then and you don't even really have to fight anything in particular). Also, I dunno, but Fenrir's setup seemed fairly clearly weak - at least offensively - for bosses. For the combo thing, I agree - and just as you killed Edna in a single combo, I killed Hotoke Garan in a single combo too. >_> Those things happen!

Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time.  Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan

I think she has to face a single equip of Warlock's Earrings (I believe Magic Mind's Eye is post-Edna, she doesn't have to face Ricardo's offensive buffs either, if you care to include those - while Garan has to face Lucia's offensive boosts that stack with buffs and all). She's better off than Garan, who has to face at least two Warlock's Earrings, at least one Mind's Eye, at least one Demon's Earring, maybe a Magic Mind's Eye... not to mention Hotoke Garan specifically gets to face, if you're so inclined, storebought Third Keys. Not sure how I feel about -those-, but they're not necessary to make Hotoke Garan awful - he already manages that by himself. >_> Also not sure on how I feel about the Mind's Eyes either, but the Earrings are plenty relevant by themselves.

[Monkeyfinger]

Rapp's ID can miss, but it's really really accurate, like 90% or so. 20 extra levels for Rayquaza really shouldn't be enough to make it fail, generally.

[Dhyerwolf]

Worth noting at least that a good chunk of those extra SH 2 damage accessories and buffs are included in my boss topic (Which is why I end up with an average that's about 40% higher than Fenrir's despite the fact that I took recharge into account)! If you can use Technical Ring, that helps a decent chunk (Not good with SH 2 rings, so I used what I can use it game reliably enough). He's about 1.5 PC HP to me, and Technical Rings put him at about 1.2. Of course, needless to say, taking ME's into account is so far beyond what I can do that I would in no way ever consider it. Edna probably has more HP, but my gut reaction is that it wouldn't be enough to me to take up Garan's 50% damage edge. I could well be wrong on Edna's HP though given unlike Garan, don't have solid numbers for it.

[Yoshiken]

Wait, why is Marle/Freyjadour the most hilarious match ever? ;o

Anyways. Marle > Freyja and Flay > Lute is all I can vote on this week. ;o

[OblivionKnight]

Edna has 1670 HP.  That's...a pretty solid, and 100% accurate, number.

[Taishyr]

Marle vs. Freyja is hilarious because going straight by the numbers, if you take Rainbow over Swallow... Freyja still beats Marle to turn 2.

But doing that AND INCLUDING THE DOREMI ELVES IN THE AVERAGES FOR S5 is JUST ENOUGH to get Marle to turn 2 first.

[Bardiche]

I don't quite see the Marle haste hype either. Freyja 2HKOs, and beats her to turn 2 even if she hastes herself, unless you take all of S5's cast without skills. Which I guess I can see a reason for but wouldn't immediately agree with either way!

[Magic Fanatic]

Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time.  Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan

I think she has to face a single equip of Warlock's Earrings (I believe Magic Mind's Eye is post-Edna, she doesn't have to face Ricardo's offensive buffs either, if you care to include those - while Garan has to face Lucia's offensive boosts that stack with buffs and all). She's better off than Garan, who has to face at least two Warlock's Earrings, at least one Mind's Eye, at least one Demon's Earring, maybe a Magic Mind's Eye... not to mention Hotoke Garan specifically gets to face, if you're so inclined, storebought Third Keys. Not sure how I feel about -those-, but they're not necessary to make Hotoke Garan awful - he already manages that by himself. >_> Also not sure on how I feel about the Mind's Eyes either, but the Earrings are plenty relevant by themselves.

That's not counting the silly that's a FE'd (Or just Arc Rage from someone else) Lucia'd Energy Charged EXTREME Seraphic Radiance physical!  And Energy Charge has a fast enough recharge that Yuri could probably use that and a physical before Garan gets his first turn.

...Nevermind that Spikes also exist, if you want to disrespect SH2 bosses further.  Also, just to note, when fighting Dog Shrine Garan, Kurando is auto-equipped with his best weapon...  That this is somewhat bad, as it also takes off all your ring boosters, for some reason.

[074]

Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)  Only match I can vote on.  And it's probably the saddest one in this block.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Banon uses MF6 form, I think about the match no longer.

(This is a good point, though. HEAL SLAPFEST)

...but Banon isn't even -in- MF6... >.>;;

[Taishyr]

Bacon is obviously a misspelling. <_<