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Author Topic: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)  (Read 270996 times)

Grefter

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3025 on: December 30, 2011, 09:12:04 PM »
That is all well and good, but they are the first thing you see on the Steppes, the first enemy in the game that you actively need to avoid, give absolutely no in game warning that these ones are not meant for you after you have already fought like 3 kinds of Behemoth, are all over the fucking place and block the path in some places.

Hindsight is all well and good but that chapter introduces itself terribly with that, no context and a horrible map.

I recommend getting you weapons up to rank 2 Neph.  It makes that place much more doable.  The obtuse item leveling system also of course makes this piece of advice just as experience driven as the above though.

Also note the advice about following the arrow and the fact that one of the zones (Steppes again from memory) the arrow point northwest and you actually need to go northeast all the way around to get there.  If you follow the arrow directly there is a path with two King Behemoths you need to bash through (for some chest and a dead end) ^_^

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3026 on: December 30, 2011, 09:12:28 PM »
You're right, but the difficulty spike in Chapter 11 from previous chapters is absolutely inexcusable. They practically require you to do grinding to kill anything which is just mind-boggling to me.

Didn't find this to be the case at all. Actually, I thought the previous area was quite a bit harder than the first part of Pulse. Perhaps I was overleveled as a result.

EDIT: I will also say that it isn't so much "given no explanation of what to do" but more "Here's an enormous new place without any real conversation... AAAAAAAAAAAAAND GO!" It just seemed like I was playing a completely different game all of a sudden with the way it drops you onto Pulse with very little ceremony (yes yes intro CGs but still) after all the more-or-less hand-holding it had done up to that point.

This, however, I agree with. The pacing in FF13 was just terrible. :P
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3027 on: December 30, 2011, 09:18:27 PM »
That is all well and good, but they are the first thing you see on the Steppes, the first enemy in the game that you actively need to avoid, give absolutely no in game warning that these ones are not meant for you after you have already fought like 3 kinds of Behemoth, are all over the fucking place and block the path in some places.

Hindsight is all well and good but that chapter introduces itself terribly with that, no context and a horrible map.

I recommend getting you weapons up to rank 2 Neph.  It makes that place much more doable.  The obtuse item leveling system also of course makes this piece of advice just as experience driven as the above though.

Also note the advice about following the arrow and the fact that one of the zones (Steppes again from memory) the arrow point northwest and you actually need to go northeast all the way around to get there.  If you follow the arrow directly there is a path with two King Behemoths you need to bash through (for some chest and a dead end) ^_^

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Die once to a king behemoth, think "maybe I shouldn't be fighting them head on."

Is that so hard? Especially for a guy who plays a ton of WRPGs, which do that kind of thing all the time?

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3028 on: December 30, 2011, 09:27:38 PM »
Context is the important thing here.

10 chapters in.  Then the game pulls that.  Kind of enemy you have fought multiple times, not some big unique skinned thing.  Just looks like something that was a random trash thing in earlier chapters.  Shit in the forest chapter you HAD to fight them to get through the dungeon.

That and yeah WRPGs do it as well and sometimes it is pretty terrible in them also.

I am not saying it is bad that they are there or that you should be able to curbstomp them mindlessly like you can the rest of the game.  Just someone going "Holy shit what the fuck mang those things are gonna rape you a new anus in your lungs and they are everywhere!" in one of the many pointlessly painful cutscenes in that chapter.  You know, you could do it with one of the Pulse natives who have absolutely dick that is interesting to say about pulse until the end of the chapter.  It was a completely dropped opportunity to give that chapter some badly needed focus and direction.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3029 on: December 30, 2011, 09:45:36 PM »
The forest analogy fails for one very big reason:

In the forest, they were narrow, straight pathes and it wasn't obvious that you could (if you could at all) avoid enemies.  You ran in a straight line and just accepted things as they were.

Archelytte Steppe, its a big open area with lots of room to run around.  You can blatantly see that you can run past a King Behemoth by just staying far away from them.

Furthermore, if having played older games of the series wasn't enough, I'd think the name "King Behemoth" when you fight one should be an indicator that they are stronger than previous foes.  And how often do you fight enemies that are notable upgrade in OTHER RPGs that are just new palettes of previous crap?  I reference the Strato Avis of FF10's Monster Arena...which is the exact same scenario.  You've fought a bunch of these birds, game doesn't hint "THIS GUY IS TOUGH!" anywhere until you actually fight him.  Just because its the monster arena doesn't mean you will immediately associate him as being much harder than anything else.  If you win, good for you; if you lose?  Oh, that sucks, go to the save point behind the guy, heal, and then shell out the negligible cash needed to fight him again.

"Context is key" indeed.  In that the context you gave for why its bullshit fails for the lone reason that its not the same scenario at all.  If the King Behemoths had stood right in your way, and you couldn't avoid them barring some fancy movement, you'd have a point.  They are clearly not like this.   To just say "Then FF13 pulls this!" is just a hand waving of what really is happening and that there are ways to deal with it. 

Basically, exactly what Monkey said.  You fight one, realize how strong they are, die, then just avoid it next time.   Given FF13 offers no actual penalty for dying, this isn't exactly something major to complain about.

And truth be told, the "Plot scene warning" thing I'd find no more useful than first hand experience.  How many RPGs warn you about this shit before hand, and you go off and face it anyway?  I dunno about you, but the Desert Lord in Grandia 3 was warned about, I went off and fought it my first time anyway, and got my ass kicked.  It wasn't the game's warning that hinted "STAY AWAY FROM IT! IT WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!" but rather, the fact that I fought it and slaughtered my team effortlessly.  Basically, I get the feeling that most WOULD have fought a King Behemoth even if the game warned you about it, due to that Overconfident "I'm that awesome!" feeling many gamers have.
And its especially so in FF13, where there's no penalty for dying, so why not test your luck?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 09:48:15 PM by Meeplelard »
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3030 on: December 30, 2011, 09:56:08 PM »
My Forest example fails because the example shows exactly why it is bad?  The fuck?  Did you even like take in the whole thrust of the post?

The paradigm is completely shifted on you and there is nothing telling you that this is so.  Suddenly there is a big pallete swap of an enemy you have fought before.  Now you shouldn't fight it!  Now you can run away! Now the game didn't even say anything about it!

Now this AS A FIRST IMPRESSION is bad.  So what I am saying is that GOING OH MAN YOU TOTALLY SHOULD HAVE HANDLED THIS BY X Y OR Z to someone who is dealing with their FIRST IMPRESSION  who has had NO CHANCE TO LEARN THIS could have benefitted from the GAME GIVING YOU THE CORRECT CONTEXT.

Yes you don't need the game to tell you that you will have trouble fighting them.  But if the game gave you some fucking context then when it shifted off being on a rail where you have to or at least probably should fight all the enemies you see then it would be an improvement. 

Just because you don't need something doesn't mean it is bad design choice to have it.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3031 on: December 30, 2011, 10:35:10 PM »
Yeah, the way FF13 handles dying, complaining about being killed by a single, avoidable random is really weird. Have we really reached the point where we get offended by this? Not to mention you are warned, as soon as you get to Pulse, that there's some scary-as-shit wildlife here.

I actually thought FF13 handled it basically perfectly, because I know I was pumped when you fight King Behemoths and especially the Adamanchelid later in the main plot.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3032 on: December 31, 2011, 12:08:57 AM »
Yeah, the way FF13 handles dying, complaining about being killed by a single, avoidable random is really weird.

This.  Really, I love it when games give you a preview of coming attractions, and it's hard to interpret the 30 seconds you waste getting your ass handed to you and then reappearing in the same place as anything but.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3033 on: December 31, 2011, 12:18:24 AM »

Quest items do *not* weigh anything.  So if you can't drop it, it's not hurting you.  Other than being in the way when you're scrolling through things.

Way for them to display weight!  Bloody hell, just means I'm way overstocked on potions and soul gems then.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3034 on: December 31, 2011, 12:29:41 AM »
Yeah, the way FF13 handles dying, complaining about being killed by a single, avoidable random is really weird. Have we really reached the point where we get offended by this? Not to mention you are warned, as soon as you get to Pulse, that there's some scary-as-shit wildlife here.

I actually thought FF13 handled it basically perfectly, because I know I was pumped when you fight King Behemoths and especially the Adamanchelid later in the main plot.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I've died probably 30-40 times so far, probably more, and I'm glad the retry thing is there to let you avoid fights like that. It isn't like it's the first time the game did something obnoxious and stupid and I'm sure it won't be the last.

A lot of my problems probably stemmed from being under-leveled and not remembering to switch to another leader who had more health than Hope did.

The pacing issues have been noted and that's pretty much my biggest problem with the whole thing, I think. The monsters themselves are surmountable or avoidable, it's just the sudden 180 in the way the game handles the storytelling combined with the monsters that I think raised my eyebrow.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3035 on: December 31, 2011, 12:57:19 AM »
I never grinded in FF13 and never had many issues. I mean yeah i died but nothing that wasn't  either avoidable or beatable.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3036 on: December 31, 2011, 07:31:39 AM »
Skyrim:  1000/1000.  Complete, or as complete as this game gets.  My last achievement was Master Criminal, and I did it with themes relating to each Hold.

Minor Skyrim spoilers if you care:

Code: [Select]
Whiterun:  Home of the werewolves.  So I turned into one and feasted on the corpse of the guy who stands in the plaza and preaches all day.

Falkreath:  Famous for their graveyard.  So I summoned a dead warrior from Sovngarde and reanimated the corpses of townsfolk I killed to fight for me.

Markarth:  General mayhem in the Dwarven Museum.

Dawnstar:  New home of the Dark Brotherhood.  So assassinating time!

Riften:  Home of the Thieves Guild.  I pickpocketed everyone in the Jarl's palace until I got caught, then assaulted a member of the Guild.

Winterhold:  Home of the mages.  My specialty.  Shinkuu Hadoken'd everyone with Lightning Storm.

Windhelm:  Awfully cold and dreary here.  So I froze a guy solid and then thawed him out with a flaming sword.

Morthal:  Terribly nondescript here.  So I livened things up with the Storm Call shout.  Which by the way is by far the best shout in the game in terms of usefulness and entertainment value.

Solitude.  My home city, so I got to do everything here.  Storm Call, corpse reanimation, had my husband fighting for me, and lots and lots of Lightning Storm.

Great game, had a lot of fun with it overall.  I think I see the main difference between JRPGs and WRPGs here.  A JRPG makes you play the game more than once to experience different story paths.  A WRPG lets you do everything at the same time.  I am a level 54 Werewolf/Archmage/Master Thief/Assassin/Thane/Legate/Dragonborn.  And probably a few more things I forgot.  Red Mage eat your heart out.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3037 on: December 31, 2011, 07:46:43 AM »

Great game, had a lot of fun with it overall.  I think I see the main difference between JRPGs and WRPGs here.  A JRPG makes you play the game more than once to experience different story paths.  A WRPG lets you do everything at the same time.

This is very wrong.  Very very very wrong.  You really shouldn't be making conclusions on the genre based on Oblivion/Skyrim, since they're almost not RPGs at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 07:49:04 AM by Rob the Stampede »

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3038 on: December 31, 2011, 02:27:29 PM »
Sonic Adventure 1: Beaten.

Game hasn't aged that well, as someone playing it for the first time now.  Its not horrible or anything, but I struggle to say its anything above average at this point.  It had a lot of cool new ideas for the series that clearly got fleshed out in later entries (Homing Attack and using that as a platform gimmick is a neat touch, and Sonic Colors at very least utilized this pretty well), and the multi character thing was done cool too.  That said, it really shows its age.  Bad camera angles, the fact that it starts at Auto Camera instead of Free really makes things annoying (and didn't know there was a Free Camera mode until late into Sonic's Chapters; allegedly the Dreamcast version didn't even have Free camera), atrocious voice acting (...which actually adds to some of the hilarious charm <.<), loose controls ("bad" is a bit much), some really wonky physics, etc.  Then again, it was the first 3D Sonic Game from my understanding, a launch Dreamcast title and all that, and it was an attempt to be the Mario 64 of the Sonic Franchise.

And honestly, Mario 64 doesn't seem like it'd hold up too well by today's standards either, but I wouldn't know, having not played any 3D Mario after Mario 64.


The character thing was neat barring one exception that I'll save for its own section.  Sonic was straight forward 3D platforming only with emphasis on speed, Tails had the cool flying gimmick to make you cheat stages, but at the same time stages were designed that you could still easily die.  Knuckles...ok, some of his OUt Of Stage stuff was dumb (mostly finding that freaking Silver Statue >_< ), but they were trying something different, and the character has a very "Free Range" feel about him.  Amy...uhh...ok, she's kind of meh, but tolerable.  E102 was brainless "Blow stuff...then blow it up again" with time limits...this was a god send after what I went through with the character I played before.


...Then we have Big the Cat.  Oh god what the fuck were they thinking with this character?  He's an original nobody (the other 4 animals all existed before this game, and E102 was basically there because "Token Eggman character, but we want him to be a good guy, so it can't be Eggman himself.") with one of the most generic designs ever (A FAT CAT! WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE), awful Voice Acting (and not mockably so.  Its just downright bad), pure comic relief WHO ISN'T FUNNY, and the single worst gameplay in the game by a long shot.

See, when I think "Sonic the Hedgehog", I think "Speedy Platforming."  All of the other characters sans Amy get this point across, and at least Amy gets the "Platforming" part down, and being chased, there's still some emphasis on speed, in a different way. Then we factor in how the minigames are basically Boarding (ie going down inclines REALLY FAST), Bumper Cars (ie smashing into things REALLY FAST) or Pinball (ie being launched at things REALLY FAST), and the game definitely remembers "SPEED IS IMPORTANT!"  Then we haev Big the Cat whose entire thing is FISHING!!! 
...you know, one of the slowest, most patient, most leisurely activities you can do?  The one where you don't control things entirely, but rather, your opponent (The fish) does?  This has got to be the single worst thing you can add into a Sonic game.  Its completely unfun, clashes with the rest of the game, and it has easily the worst controls of any level.  Oh yeah, the last level has a potential screw over point where if you drain the water, you could actually be completely unable to finish the level without restarting it entirely.  Given lack of visibility in Water, its very easy to miss that the frog is there.

There's seriously know excuse for Big's chapter.  If the idea was cool CONCEPTUALLY, and just failed at execution, I'd be more forgiving.  That happens all the time.  The fact that they put this in the game, however, means someone thought "hey, this is a great idea!" and went along with it, and didn't bother to think how it completely clashes with everything else in the game.  I can't stress how much worse Big's chapter was than everything else.


Before someone says "Meeple, you're a BoF fan! How can you hate fishing?"  I can show you differences:
1. BoF fishing 99% of the time is completely optional.  Only times its required are BoF1's P. Fish (BoF1 doesn't count as a minigame), Shisu in BoF3 (only once + however many times you fail...no one defends Shisu in BoF3), and one part in BoF4 which can be skipped if you do one of two other requirements (Fishing is most effecient method to continue plot, mind but some hate it, so the fact that there's alternatives is nice.)  Sonic Adventure has a WHOLE CHAPTER OF NOTHING BUT IT.
2. BoF2-4 fishing is a lot more consistent and controlled than Big's.  When a fish bites in BoF2, it bites.  When a fish nibbles in BoF4, you react and it bites!  IN BoF3...I think it worked like BoF2, but can't remember offhand.  Sonic Adventure?  The frog you need to catch can nibble at the bait for like 5 seconds, then release it.  You can't reel it in or anything because it hasn't actually bit the lure.  Yes, I know, REALISTIC!!!!!...
...but REALISTIC is exactly what games should stray away from in gameplay.   Especially in a game where a Fox can fly by spinning its tails around like a helicopter, or an Echidna can glide using its spines like a Hang-glider.
3.  No Camera Angle bullshit.  This cannot be stressed enough how much fuckery got me with Big's.

So yeah, fuck Big's Chapter.  If they really wanted to put it in the game, they should have made it an optional side chapter mini-game.  That would have been fine.  I'm sure some people actually liked it, and its the best of both worlds.  Having to play Big's to get to Perfect Chaos is just stupid on every level.


Speaking of Perfect Chaos, he was ok for a final boss, outside of the fact that in his 2nd form, his Danmaku fireball move, if it hits you once, seems to easily lock you into a bunch of hits indefinitely, because he spams it.  This is just poor design.  I know each hit is suppose drain your time due to Rings, but there's no reason you should be LOCKED making the move almost instant death.  That, and really, game?  After having a THEME SONG POWER UP moment in the first form, you throw generic "Kaiju on the Rampage!" style music for the 2nd form, when all that changes are some of his attacks?  The song in the first form wasn't amazing or anything, but it did sell the whole "FINAL BOSS!" thing.  The 2nd song is just "now we're boring."


So...yeah, game was alright outside of Big's Chapter, but nothing special.  I'll get around to playing Adventure 2 at some point.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3039 on: December 31, 2011, 04:22:20 PM »
I think I see the main difference between JRPGs and WRPGs here.  A JRPG makes you play the game more than once to experience different story paths.  A WRPG lets you do everything at the same time.

I dunno. A game can't really do the latter without giving the impression that your decisions don't really matter. Which may be the case in Skyrim, I couldn't really say yet since I'm busy with explorer mode.


Quest items do *not* weigh anything.  So if you can't drop it, it's not hurting you.  Other than being in the way when you're scrolling through things.

Way for them to display weight!  Bloody hell, just means I'm way overstocked on potions and soul gems then.

Yes. I just cleared out all my inventory to figure out where the extra weight was coming from (since evidently it wasn't plot items) and it turned out I was hauling around eighty pounds of healing supplies. This...is a bit more than I need for normal circumstances.

~

Skyrim: Warp to giant camp, watch mammoths fall from the sky. Skyrim can be a mite buggy at times. Although, all my alchemy/smithing materials disappearing I think was just the game being a dick. I had 'em all stored in barrels at the college, figured it'd be a safe place since I was told that was my room. I drop by to pick everything up and move it to the house I bought and nope, all vanished. Here have five carrots instead. fffft.

Anyway, guess I'll wrap up the Companions quest already. I'm assuming there's no real downside to lycanthropy since getting it is attached to a major quest and I get the impression the game isn't the sort to have you make choices with serious consequences.

Also apparently I'm the bear patrol now. When do I get my stealth bomber?

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3040 on: December 31, 2011, 05:42:19 PM »
Anyway, guess I'll wrap up the Companions quest already. I'm assuming there's no real downside to lycanthropy since getting it is attached to a major quest and I get the impression the game isn't the sort to have you make choices with serious consequences.

Only if you count losing the "Well Rested" bonus when you sleep in a bed as a serious downside.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3041 on: December 31, 2011, 05:46:01 PM »
Pfft, like I ever sleep. Glancing at the game stats, my PC is averaging about one hour of sleep per day.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3042 on: December 31, 2011, 06:58:59 PM »
Pfft, like I ever sleep. Glancing at the game stats, my PC is averaging about one hour of sleep per day.

I went over a hundred real-life hours without in-game sleeping.  Or something that makes sense.  I only know this because I had the Black Hand note in my inventory and that was practically one of the first quests I did.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3043 on: December 31, 2011, 07:42:22 PM »
Binding of Isaac: I finally got Satan's Room to show up! And I jumped into the pit to the next level on reflex. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Edit: It was a great run, too. Shoop Da Woop with the fast-charge bonus, 99 coins and 99 keys, +speed/power/range buffs. Lost focus after that moment of idiocy, though. At least I unlocked Cain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 07:52:03 PM by Shale »
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3044 on: December 31, 2011, 11:13:19 PM »

Great game, had a lot of fun with it overall.  I think I see the main difference between JRPGs and WRPGs here.  A JRPG makes you play the game more than once to experience different story paths.  A WRPG lets you do everything at the same time.

Chiming in on this too since I just played Legend of Mana, which uses the Skyrim-style "DO ALL THE STORYPATHS!" option, and Mass Effect (and probably all Bioware WRPGs, though I haven't played them -all-) which takes the "DO ALL THE REPLAYS!" option.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #3045 on: January 01, 2012, 02:00:19 AM »
Skyrim:  1000/1000.  Complete, or as complete as this game gets.  My last achievement was Master Criminal, and I did it with themes relating to each Hold.

Same, though Platinum and not nearly so exotic an endgame as yours.  Just some Hailing Sithis and things were done.