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Author Topic: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)  (Read 269101 times)

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2011, 02:45:15 AM »
Resonance of Fate: so my guns have four barrels each and seven scopes and I use two at once when I'm not bicycle kicking grenades at shit.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #351 on: February 03, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »
Quote
See, RPG players? Chrono Trigger is quite possibly the most revered game in the genre, and it doesn't need 50-odd hours and a stupid amounts of sidequests and time-wasters to be that way. Stop asking for shitty games and you'll actually see a game as good as this one more than once every couple years or so.

Quoted for so very much truth.

I'm not saying, per se, that there's anything wrong with long games, some games in particular-Such as, say, Morrowind style exploration games, or Xenogears with it's story that it wants to tell-are perfectly fine as longer games.

But stop shoehorning long into everything in a pitiful attempt to justify your price tags. No one gives a shit anyways, so long as the base game's good, and you're making the base games not good sometimes doing it. Ahem. Don't add sidequests that have little to no impact, sure, but that's secondary, they don't detract(This is why FFX is still okay.).

But try to avoid as much as possible adding filler areas, grind points, superfluous animations without a way to turn them off or speed them(Bonus negative if they're things like walking to an enemy before attacking once, normally, with a sword, and somehow take a lot of time.), loading times before moves(especially this, and hilariously this is fixable with animation skip), loading times before battle(Sometimes less fixable), retreading a single area constantly, and especially, especially, especially the pointless interlude. When you fetch quest for a fetch quest is when I start getting pissed. Fetch quests are okay. They are a foundation of RPGs to a degree, and in many cases your entire main quest is getting a mcguffin of some kind. Just try to keep it down to a feeling of doing something you need to do to get on your way, okay?

At least really bad examples of it aren't common. Still, sometimes they're glaringly big(Diamond/Pearl, Sonic Chronicles, Legend of Dragoon, WA1/3/ACF) and even the minor examples that make you see a three-five second animation every time you go to do something that you can't skip get old.

It doesn't ruin things. But it definitely detracts. As near as I can tell, it does even if you don't think it matters...try to think about how many times a game has felt "fluid" or "fast paced", or how many of your favorite games ever don't strongly justify their length, if they have it. Glancing at the games rated 10 in the RPG ratings list gives a pretty good idea here; Probably the slowest 10 game I see is Suikoden 3, and Suikoden 3 might arguably be an example of getting every single thing right *but* being fast paced.

(For reference to what I'm thinking here, I was thinking FF6 had a surprisingly fast battle system, so I tried to figure out why... and realized it was because it has single/few second animations...and you can queue up actions while those short animations are going off. Why is a...what, 17? year old game more streamlined than anything in ages?)

Yeah I like to rant about this what of it. >_> My default mode of playing RPGs is with four times frameskip on! I like 'em fast. <_<
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #352 on: February 03, 2011, 04:06:39 PM »
But stop shoehorning long into everything in a pitiful attempt to justify your price tags. No one gives a shit anyways, so long as the base game's good, and you're making the base games not good sometimes doing it.

Sadly people do give a shit, though. A lot of people complained about WA4 being too short, for example. I totally agree with you though.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #353 on: February 03, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »
Rephrase: There is a level beyond which no one really gives a shit. They'll complain if it's not as long as the game before it, say. But, at around 30-40 hours(Varies a bit) you're good. Even WRPGs, a genre known for much higher lengths than JRPGs, can get away with being 40 hours.

Before that it varies. But, length is generally secondary to quality.

If it wasn't, Xenogears would have vastly outsold PE. They came out around the same time! (Personally I also consider XG a lot higher quality. Not the point though.)
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #354 on: February 03, 2011, 09:32:38 PM »
Stone Cold Pimping Simulator 2.0 - Edgeworth continues to do his things.  I am honestly frustrated with the chain of logic sometimes.  It shits me having to make all the connections with 2 or 3 word pieces when some of them are things I just kind of assume are taken for granted, pretty much because they are blatantly stated in the dialogue.  It is vastly improved over the other game in the series I have played though (so it is going to spoil me when I play the copies of the others I have).  Also frustrating.  Pointing to the mannequin as the hiding spot in case 3.  There was just a ton dialogue about how they hid as the mannequin.  Then POINT OUT WHERE THEY HID.  Errrrrrrrrrr lost half my health bar going wtfwtfwtf I am supposed to work out where they hid instead of as the doll?!?!?!?  Also dude hits you on the left hand side of the head with a sword which has stains on the left hand side of it while the guy in the suit had something in his left hand here and we have proven that the suspect was left handed. SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE! Point out the contradiction!  Thanks guys.  I worked out that left is not right and this is the contradiction before you started dropping that kind of hint.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #355 on: February 03, 2011, 09:52:47 PM »
But stop shoehorning long into everything in a pitiful attempt to justify your price tags. No one gives a shit anyways, so long as the base game's good, and you're making the base games not good sometimes doing it.

Sadly people do give a shit, though. A lot of people complained about WA4 being too short, for example. I totally agree with you though.

I think this just gets to a point that I rememebr Tal and I ended up discussing about. If a game is good, it's replay value is naturally high. You won't need to drop 100 quests on it to make it good (see FFT/WA4). If a game sucks, who care about those extras? Replay value should not be about length for the sake of making you keep playing the game.

So yes, I would likely be in the same camp here as well. Quality games that are short >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shitty games that are long and terrible
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #356 on: February 03, 2011, 11:18:16 PM »
But try to avoid as much as possible adding filler areas, grind points, superfluous animations without a way to turn them off or speed them(Bonus negative if they're things like walking to an enemy before attacking once, normally, with a sword, and somehow take a lot of time.), loading times before moves(especially this, and hilariously this is fixable with animation skip), loading times before battle(Sometimes less fixable), retreading a single area constantly, and especially, especially, especially the pointless interlude. When you fetch quest for a fetch quest is when I start getting pissed. Fetch quests are okay. They are a foundation of RPGs to a degree, and in many cases your entire main quest is getting a mcguffin of some kind. Just try to keep it down to a feeling of doing something you need to do to get on your way, okay?

While there's a lot of DQ7 hate around here, what you mentioned here is exactly what it does right.  It's a 100-hours+ of actually doing stuff.  Battles are lightning-quick, with almost no animation at all.  Fetch quests are important to the central plot, not just time-wasters.  That's why the game feels so epic - you're completing a quest that's just so massive and isn't over in a cutscene or two.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #357 on: February 04, 2011, 12:38:58 AM »
Andy stat topic convinced me to drop everything and play around with Dragon Age: Origins.

It's good Bioware dialog and world-building. Meh gameplay. And argh, Silent Main. It offsets this with the ability to make all the PCs run around naked. Yes, I'm amused by this.

My biggest complaint are the menus. They tried to be streamlined, but they just feel very unintuitive and every time I have to equip my PCs or navigate a shop menu, I want to just turn the game off. RPG fail. I suppose they could be much worse, but my general feeling of DA:O so far has been "ugh, all this GAME getting in the way of my interactive storybook."

Also... holy crap, are all the dungeons going to be as long as the Brecilian Forest/Ruins?

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #358 on: February 04, 2011, 12:46:58 AM »
I disagree about DQ7 feeling epic cause of the quests.  A lot of them involved revisiting places you've already been, too, which undermines the overall flow.  Furthermore, the raw number of them didn't actually add to anything.  There's a point where it feels less like you're accomplishing something, and more like they actually are time wasters.  A bunch of those quests had almost no impact in the grand scheme of things, and then smoe of them felt just completely worthless from an RPG stand point.

I mean, why the fuck should I care about the personal life of two lovers who have this love triangle with this rich dude whose a total wimp?  That was like a good half hour of NOTHING but running around town, and talking to people until you get what you wanted, and it added nothing to the game other than being pointless.  It'd be one thing if the story arc there was actually interesting, but really it was a generic lovers quarrel.

DQ7 definitely fell into that range of "Too Much."   You can say they were necessary, but I fail to see why the game couldn't do the same thing with only half, and have the same effect.

Legend of Mana was very similar to Dragon Quest 7 in this regard...except it had 2 major advantages:

A. A lot of stuff was optional.  This made the game erally at your pace, and made it feel a lot less like it dragged.  Didn't want to do something?  You don't have too! 

B. Even with all quests done, the game is still notably shorter.  It can't be stressed enough; DQ7's quests weren't just numerous, they were individually long as well.  LoM, the quests don't atke much more than a half hour tops, barring the final dungeon ones of the 3 primary quests.  And there are quests that feel actually linked, so you do get a sense of accomplishment, not just "Ok, that's done, ONTO THE NEXT ONE!" with no end in sight.


If you're gonna argue about World Building as a central plot element...look at Terarnigma.  The GOOD part of that game's plot is Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, where you're literally rebuilding the world.  That lasts...what? 10 hours tops?  And its actually kind of fun (the game just kind of drops the ball ENTIRELY on this and becomes a complete boring plot game that leads into a MAJOR TRAIN WRECK then into a "Congrats for saving the world, NOW YOU DIE CAUSE OF A STUPID TECHNICALITY!  Wait, maybe you didn't die, CAUSE THIS PLOT POINT MAKES NO SENSE!") 

Again, there's no justification for DQ7's length.  If they wanted that many quests, shorten them then; length does not add to "epic" feel, half the time, it just makes you go "Man, I'm glad THAT'S done with."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 12:53:45 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #359 on: February 04, 2011, 04:09:55 AM »
Pokemon: Soul Silver- Finished the Uber E4. Easy as hell until Lance. Without Delibird Buff and Sweep Swampert. Got lucky in that Garchomp didn't use Roar. He ended up taking Altaria with him in Perish Song though, but Manectric ended up OHKOing Lance's his Gyrados.

As far as Legendary Catching, got Lugia, Articuno, Zapdos and Latios so far. After the whole Sapphire experience with it, I ended up just throwing the Master Ball at Latios. The shiny gerbils made the decision easy.

Speaking of shiny, need to get a Shiny Stone to upgrade my Shiny Roselia.

Dunno how I think about the game, really. I enjoyed it, originally thought of it as a 7/10, but looking over both lists, it ended up in the 6/10 camp. The retread of Kanto was nice, but neither side really did a lot and catching interesting pokemon happened more on the periphery (Pokewalker, mainly) than in the game itself until after the first E4 fight, which... not great. E4 without relying on legendary cheese was good though. Should do that more often!

Will train up to fight Red and get the rest of the legendaries/starters, but splitting time with Legaia 2 starting now.

Delibird is still your god.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #360 on: February 04, 2011, 04:45:31 AM »
Parasite Eve 2: So after doing Neo Ark, I wanted to go abck to Armory, made a wrong turn, ended up heading into a temporarypoint of no return and nearly swore cause I hadn't saved in a while...

Somehow muscled out against the boss, and am thankfully placed in a spot with infinite Hydra Ammo nearbye, so I think i SHOULD be good for at least a little while...just ugh to having to be put back into Neo Ark again.  I just want to restock on Ammo and maybe head back to Dryfield to by an awesome shotgun, is that so bad :(?
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #361 on: February 04, 2011, 07:46:52 AM »
I think this just gets to a point that I rememebr Tal and I ended up discussing about. If a game is good, it's replay value is naturally high.
...
So yes, I would likely be in the same camp here as well. Quality games that are short >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shitty games that are long and terrible

I kind of have to disagree with you here on the replayability.  Some game genres don't lend themselves to replayability and are amazing.  The number of times I have played Torment is due to how good it is, not because it is remotely replayable (ie one of the best games of all times is quite sufficient by itself on a single play through).  Less extreme, ToV is a very good game, replayable it is not really.

A good short game is better than a shitty long game, yes.  A good long game is better than a shitty short game as well.  A good game with low replayability is better than a shitty game with high expectations of replayability. 

So yeah good games are better than bad games.  Wheeeee.

Also Djinn, as I said, I cannot vouch for any value in Dragon Age on console.  Most things will be about as long as the Brecillian forest.  Note that the four places you do there is the majority of the main plot though.  Also they are deceptively long and feed you into doing optional side things a great deal when if you really want you can go very directly through the places.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #362 on: February 04, 2011, 09:09:45 AM »
My biggest complaint are the menus. They tried to be streamlined, but they just feel very unintuitive and every time I have to equip my PCs or navigate a shop menu, I want to just turn the game off. RPG fail.

Going to wager you're playing on a console. The menus are very very very bad on a console.

I would bemoan this more, but instead I will simply say that now you dumbass dickbags know how it feels to use an interface that is so poorly optimized for your platform's interface.

I am absolutely still mad about Fallout 3, thanks for asking.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 09:12:08 AM by Rob the Stampede »

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #363 on: February 05, 2011, 04:08:40 AM »
ME2: Everyone's loyalty is mine, and I got a quarian, sweet
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #364 on: February 05, 2011, 04:40:56 AM »
PE2: Finished, got best ending.

Game's too different to compare to the first one, but its alright I guess.  Nothing incredible, but didn't find it bad or anything.  Also has the most competent military in a game I've ever seen...despite being completely on YOUR side with no strings attached.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #365 on: February 05, 2011, 09:12:13 AM »
PE2: Finished, got best ending.

Game's too different to compare to the first one, but its alright I guess.  Nothing incredible, but didn't find it bad or anything.  Also has the most competent military in a game I've ever seen...despite being completely on YOUR side with no strings attached.

That last part really blew my mind. I waited the whole game for them to turn on me or turn retarded and neither happened.  Freaked me out so much I hid under my bed, because clearly I knew nothing.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #366 on: February 05, 2011, 10:31:46 PM »
Paper Mario: Beat chapter 5.

The jungle was kind of long winded, but not that bad. I liked the volcano.

I finally toped off BP and can now start upgrading HP and FP. Of course, the first HP upgrade I made after that was used to allow me to remove a HP+ badge. Still, I've only got one FP+ badge left equipped, and after that I have to increase HP or FP. I also got the Ultra Stone and then hit two upgrade blocks in the volcano. The first upgrade went to Bow and that worked out really well. The next upgrade went to Sushie since she has a water/ice attack in a fire dungeon.

The boss was beaten by Bow using Fan Smack until it dies and Mario mainly using Focus and Refresh. The second form looks like it could have been tricky had it lived longer. Bow can kill it in four turns meaning it only gets three turns and it has a "summon more guys" setup that requires more turns to work properly.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #367 on: February 06, 2011, 12:09:27 AM »
Pimping 101 with Miles Edgworth - Up to the Adventures of Young Elfboy and Ciato.  Ciato demands to be able to look into the mens bathroom through a window.  Then they interrogate Shale about his bathroom activities.
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #368 on: February 06, 2011, 12:18:49 AM »
Also they emotionally abuse Yoshi.

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Maybe.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #369 on: February 06, 2011, 01:37:28 AM »
Dissidia:  Finally cracked down and got 100% in everything...well, at least, in all Accomplishments and all Museum Stars.  Stupid Shade Impulse.

The only things not quite done are "Finish Time Attack Mode with everyone" which I don't feel like doing cause its annoying, and "Max out accessory slots for every character" which...maybe I'll do cause its not that hard, I guess.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #370 on: February 06, 2011, 01:56:00 AM »
I've been finishing up a few games so I can delete them to clear up hard drive space on my Xbox, so I did the speedrun of Monkey Island Special Edition and added another % of map completion to SotN. Also...

'Splosion Man: Beat the single player campaign after playing off again and on again for over a year. Have to agree with Yahzee on this one - the game would have been much better if it was 2/3 the length and the difficulty curve was more gradual. I have no idea how good the co-op is, but I'd give 5/10 to the single player, 6 if I was feeling generous that day. The presentation is charming, though.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #371 on: February 06, 2011, 04:25:27 AM »
Baldur's Gate 2 - A chinchilla.  Zeus would be so proud.

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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #372 on: February 06, 2011, 02:59:50 PM »
Darkstalkers Chronicle - The Chaos Tower (PSP)- Once upon a time some people at the DL told me I would like Darkstalkers. More recently a persistent little bird kept tempting me with it and filled me in on some details about the series with the main draw being that it had not one, not two but at least three CT baits with a cool and interesting vampire man to boot. This luring included details on and links to visual aids of said CT baits. How could I keep resisting? Resistance was futile. It helped that the game was ridiculously cheap from Amazon over here. I couldn't wait so I went with express delivery so I would have it for playing this weekend too >.> Got it yesterday.

So far I haven't really done anything with it yet regardless ... except mess around with Haisen-Ko, B.B Hood and Lilith in Training a bit. I have no idea what I'm doing though so I'm going to take Meeple's advice and start out for the game proper (arcade/tower) by trying Demetri instead even though he's fugly in this game <.< I might also use easy mode with this too just for starters until I get more used to things.

Out of the CT baits so far I think I like Haisen-Ko and Lilith best. Haisen-Ko is purple and pink and dinky with a massive chainsaw for overthetop awesme craziness and Lilith's kick attacks are cute <3 B.B Hood ... well she would only be for when if I was feeling really, really savage I think. That's just scary.  

On the otherhand Beautiful Memory and Appleforyou are kickass skill names >.> <.< >.> Oh, oh and the dog! =-(

« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 03:22:37 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #373 on: February 06, 2011, 04:55:43 PM »
Blazblue: Continuum Shift - got, played around with. Finished story mode 100% with Ragna, went through missions with a bunch of people, played arcade with Tsubaki. Leaning toward her and/or Lambda as mains, but it's early yet.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
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Re: Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)
« Reply #374 on: February 06, 2011, 05:43:30 PM »
XS3 - OH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....