Playin' any games today, Flying Nun? (WGAYP - 2011 Edition)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Disgaea 4: According to the guide, I am but a few maps from completing the main story. The cast has really gelled now and I dig the dynamic. Individually, none of them are very solid, but Valvatorez and Fenrich have great chemistry, and the other 4 make a great rabble when they gossip and/or get excited about story events as if these things don't actually concern them.

Was particularly pleased with the whole 'classic monster movie' theme that Dis4 is focused around - in a world where Zombies are normal denizens, the only proper way to imitate a cheesy zombie movie was to create the A-Virus! Don't let any idiots bite you, idiocy is contagious.

The serious plot doesn't really exist much, but there's a few solid character subplot moments. Also, I like the usual Disgaea-style paradigm-switching. A common theme in games these days is that "Humans are Our Own Worst Enemy"... and the Disgaea viewpoint of that is "That's terrible, won't SOMEBODY think of the Demons!? It's THEIR job to be Our Worst Enemy, now all these demons are unemployed and there's overpopulation and Prinny pollution and shit."

I will echo previous thoughts on the plot though, everything plot-related after "Val takes over the Netherworld" is -really- rough around the edges, though there's a few awesome jokes in there at least.

Although I don't really like the sardine joke. But it -is- pretty amusing that all of the Episode Previews devolve into a lecture on sardines. I'm honestly quite impressed that there's so much sardine trivia in the first place.

Character thoughts:
Valvatorez: Solid main, far more engaging than any of the previous Disgaea mains, though I liked La Pucelle's Prier and Soul Nomad's Gig better. Except for the way that they beat the sardine gag into the ground, he pulls double duty as an awesome serious and humorous character. His hyper-seriousness manages to work as comedy gold when the others play along, though he can get a little dry during the serious scenes. I honestly think that's more a weakness of the overall plot, as his serious scenes of his character subplot are quite engaging.

Fenrich: Great snarker, and the primary reason why the rest of the cast works. Also gets lots of gay jokes with Val, and it's obvious that N1 had fun with those and used it to poke fun at yaoi fangirls, which is always a worthy cause.

Axel: Not quite as much fun as in Dis2 PSP's Axel mode, but his chapter 6 appearance really made it work. Very humorous, but nothing serious at all to temper it, so sometimes his jokes fell flat.

Fuka: Prinny Newsie Cap! Rides on that for a good half of the game to me. Once Desco joins, she starts working the "LOL 9th Grade Girls are shallow and stupid" parody and getting ridiculed more, which worked for her. Her serious plot wasn't really ever addressed in a serious way, which actually has me feeling really sorry for her, but I suspect that they'll get to it in the ending sequences.

Desco: Really cute character, thought she'd be annoying, but I'll be honest, the 4th-wall-breaking Final Boss jokes -still- crack me up. Probably more than they should, so I'm admitting my bias here.

Emizel: Weak link of the cast. Tends to handle all the necessary 'character development' bits so that the better characters can act awesome. Has a few amusing things happen -to- him, but he's just okay on his own.

Angel of Avarice: Pretty much a one-shot gag character. She plays her gag straight, but it's the other PCs' reactions to it that make it work. Has serious plot! I like her more than Emizel at least.

Villain cast: Gag villains were AWESOME, fake villains were decent, real(?) villain is painful to watch (pretty much the one good thing Dis3 had going for it). Still have a chapter left, so I'll reserve judgment here for now.

Gameplay: I want to talk about this, but I'm tired of typing! More next time after I've beaten the game and done the GRIND for the Post-game content. This time around, you actually get a "True Ending" for doing all of the Post-game content so there's some more motivation there to get it done quickly. Highlights: DAMAGE PROJECTIONS are win, Grinding is still complex but more streamlined than Dis3's, Story/Generic PCs getting more unique is awesome, The Cam-Pain HQ board is really freakin' fun. Storymap GeoBlock Puzzles are generally good, though random-map ones are bullshit. Heart Cannon is broken, but Broken is why I love Disgaea-style Grinding. Currently level 300ish. (And yes, that's waaaay overlevelled for the final chapters.)

[Shale]

You can cover up a lot more when you can imagine lines being read however you want. When you have someone else telling you that, yes, "My name is Lightning and I can only destroy but your name is Hope so you give us hope" is to be taken 100% seriously, no doubt about it, it goes beyond normal bad to a very special bad.

Please please please tell me you're paraphrasing that.

[Luther Lansfeld]

FF13 - Not very far, but Snow makes me laugh. He's such a big dork (I do have a bias toward really dorky characters like that).

I would rather like to get out of Chapter 2 though. Definitely feels like one of those games that you'd keep a save file when the gameplay actually starts.

[Meeplelard]

You can cover up a lot more when you can imagine lines being read however you want. When you have someone else telling you that, yes, "My name is Lightning and I can only destroy but your name is Hope so you give us hope" is to be taken 100% seriously, no doubt about it, it goes beyond normal bad to a very special bad.

Please please please tell me you're paraphrasing that.

She does make analogies regarding the two of their names like that, but pretty sure they're in two totally separate scenes.  The Lightning thing is where she reflects on her past and what changing her name to Lightning (its not her birth given name, but one she took on after a point in her life.  Game states this in her bio, so not a spoiler), and just what kind of implications it means.  The Hope thing, she uses that as a means to inspire him and talk him out of a depressing state he's in.

Could be wrong, but pretty sure those two scenes are isolated.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

She puts them together in the Odin scene. Would you prefer I used "MOMS ARE TOUGH" as my example?

[Yoshiken]

I don't think Wakka actually believes him so much as, being the nice guy he is, wants to believe him, but knows too well that Tidus can't possibly be who he says he is. 

Also, worth noting that from my experience barring a few specific fans, Lulu and Kimhari are generally regarded as the two weakest characters in FF10 for a reason, so you singling them out...well <_<

Wakka quite clearly does believe him, though. At worst, he is at least completely ignorant of a faith that he is otherwise completely devoted too at this point. I can't really see any justification in his character for fully accepting what he perceives to be a joke about his faith unless he doesn't think it's a joke.
And yeah, they're the weakest two playables, at least. In a cast of seven (plus a villain), having 2-3 very weak characters (and then the villain) isn't really a good move. Half the cast is awful? Wow.

Yeah, I'm really not seeing this "Final Fantasy is below average for RPGs in general at characters/storyline" argument but to each their own. (Actually the only series which I think decisively beats it is Suikoden, but a few others are roughly on its level, and then you have the Grandias, Fire Emblems, and Tales of the world which are clearly worse, to say nothing of the RPGs which don't even really try at them in the first place such as Pokemon and most 8/16-bit RPGs.)

I'd personally say FFs are about average, actually. Nothing terrible, but nothing amazing. (I'd say better examples are easily available in Persona (and most SMTs for storyline, at least), Mana Khemia, Suikos, Shadow Hearts, FE8-10, BoF...) That said, I think FF8 does relatively okay on character, except for a few weak links. (The weakest links just unfortunately happen to be the main two characters.) I'd say FFIX does amazingly, FFVI has some real highlights (and a few weak characters is less of an issue in a larger cast) and FFIV even has its moments. (And I'm sure FFV/FFT are good from what I've heard, although I've not played FFV and barely played FFT.) I also give FFX less credit since it comes later, so should really be avoiding the mistakes of previous instalments, not expanding on them. >.>
(As it goes, I know I'm different to most in liking FFIX, but even seeing the flaws there, I don't see how those same flaws then get completely ignored in FFX. It does pretty much everything FFIX does badly, and then triples those problems.)

And with regards to what Rob said, I stopped playing FFs once FFXII was the most abysmal piece of shit I ever had the misfortune to buy (and I've got the Elektra film on DVD), and everything I've heard about FFXIII has made me want to hate it. So, I'm pretty much counting FFXI as the end of the series or something. >.>

I'm totally agreeing on the VA thing too. FFX's VAing is horrible, and it really hurts the quality of the game, to the point that I wish it had none. And, now that I think about it, I can't think of a game that has VAing outside of major scenes that I've actually enjoyed the plot/characterisation of. (The most I can think of is Mana Khemia, where I spent most of my time skipping lines.)

Idly, I'm really interested in keeping this debate going, since it highlights the supposedly good elements I should be looking out for. As I said, this review was meant to show me what I missed in FFX, since I thought it was a pretty bad game compared to others in the series. (For reference, I'd say: FF9 > FF6 > FF7 >>> FF4 > FF8 > FFX-2 >>> FFX > FF1 > FF2 > FF3DS > FF12.)

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Are you limiting it to just jRPGs? Cause I can think of a ton of examples but they all don't have to jump through translation and localization hoops on top of dealing with corporate control being in a totally different cultural sphere.

[Yoshiken]

Oh, I've just more experience with jRPGs. I've not played anywhere near enough wRPGs to judge that side of things, but they always seem to be more about characterisation and less about (RPG) gameplay from what I've seen.

[Sierra]

El Cid: So was the bit with Ulysse satisfying?

They did a very good job characterizing him, but that's not really a surprise at this point. There is a palpable air of weariness, despair, and suppressed rage about him that suffuses the entire expansion. I almost feel it was too easy to talk him down at the end, though. It's hard to believably write someone changing their mind about something that drastic and even Obsidian's not always up to the task. Going back to fiddle with the dialogue tree, there's apparently several things that can shut him out of all rational conversation, but they're pretty easily recognizable as such. I guess it's possible to have missed the things you need to know to change his mind.

Curiously, the Courier Duster (unique apparel) you get after finishing it adopted the NCR symbol for me (evidently this varies in accordance with whichever of the four endings you're in line for). Actually, most of the conversations with Ulysses seemed to assume I'd sided with the NCR, despite the fact that for all the expansions I ran off a save just before dealing with Benny wherein I hadn't formally sided with anyone. Proooobably based on the fact that over the course of the game I helped out a lot of individual NCR citizens (because their government regularly wasn't in a position to do anything for them) and Legion was kill on sight. Whatever, I'm obliged to finish out the other endings wearing Ulysses's duster anyway.

Randomly: what the heck is up with the locked doors in the Temple? I can't see any way to get in there. Ulysses doesn't have a key and they're not pickable. The possibility of missing out on loot that I have no need of, so bothersome.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I found that Ulysses, when we finally met, was kind of a deconstruction of what we heard second-hand as well as the PC. No matter what path you take, he follows you on it and he learned all the wrong lessons in doing so.

[Fenrir]

That's good to know. I'll definitely pick the last pieces of DLC in the next few months.

Infinite Undiscovery: Bunch of achievements.
I spent a lot of time getting Capell's optional skills, and they both suck. Oh well.
Enemies are starting to become ridiculous (Those crossbows!!) so I started giving Capell some steroids. He has 50 000 max HPs now, he can have 72000 with the materials I currently have, but I'm waiting some more.

The giant turtle was completely ridiculous. The DEF stat is completely useless against 20 000 damage.
Fortunately, it had a 2.5 weakness to earth.
I gave Capell water immunity, earth weapon and 30% more earth damage, he could 7HKO the boss with Grinn Valesti. Strafe around him, Grinn Valesti, GTFO to heal because Capell has almost no HPs left at this point. With water immunity the boss could only deal damage at very close range, so that was that.

It's funny how the "unseeing" status work. Since your character can't focus, you can't target enemies, so it's a bit like manual mode. This makes the game so much better. Unfortunately, this is only a bad status that wears off after a while.

[Niu]

Fenrich: Great snarker, and the primary reason why the rest of the cast works. Also gets lots of gay jokes with Val, and it's obvious that N1 had fun with those and used it to poke fun at yaoi fangirls, which is always a worthy cause.

If at the misfortune pf Emizel you mean. The yaoi fangirlism of the entire female cast only continues to expand none stop. By the time of DLC content, Emizel has been, ironically, traumatized to the point he swore not to marry a woman.

[Fudozukushi]

Record of Agarest War Zero, where the effort is just like Who's Line points just not as valuable.

When last we left off, the second left flank fell to the Galfrost's 4th cavalry assault.  We recouped the 83rd anti-infantry wing to delay them despite being ill-equipped.  We bought the time we needed with lives, but were able to prep the 12th Dragoons and 19th Anti-Cavalry to press them back.  Without their primary cavalry force, Galfrost's forces were thrown into disarray and we broke through the front.  But Altioch would have none of this, and sent their dragon-riders and Black Knights to counter.  Crashing through friend and foe alike, the Altioch troopers completely butchered the front lines.

Wait, no, I killed some stupid wanker.  Dang.  The above was gibberish and made more sense.  So, more generic fights and we're then fighting off against Good-NPC-gone-EVIL!  Who's such a joke at this point that I kill him on the first turn with nothing but normal attacks.  Yippie.  Afterwards we kill him!  Or seal him or something because it's kinda inconsistent.  And then the path splits.  Seeking loot, I go and grab the northern stuff, then I head to the western stuff without saving because the enemies are scrubs.  So of course I run into the one enemy here who isn't a scrub.  A recolor of those stupid dragon kids who were with the golem assholes, I gleefully smile as I notice his utter ass of 20,000 HP(Leon and Gallioss have more then that!) accompanied by scrub allies.  So of course the thing again as the 25% haha-no-hit-for-you willpowers and outspeeds and outdamages me so badly on the first turn that it kills off Leon and Eugene.  Then I notice it's level 90.  Fun!  So, despite that setback, it gave me enough SP to launch three, well actually two since it'll probably absorb Alice's light, EX Skills.  Minmel's of course somehow does in the ballpark of 40,000 damage because why not.  And then I get a 900% bonus because the thing was so high level!  Yay!

So, terrible and useless loot gathered, to the next Event fight!  Against the Good-NPC-made-evil-that-had-a-unique-sprite-that-became-gneric-but-was-actually-unique-again.  So, this time he has the back-up of a gernic evil sprite guy of the same class who's not named and is thus a joke.  And once again I kill the Good-NPC on the first turn and play cleanup on Turn 2.  Also the Good/Evil-NPC has less Hit then leon has Avoid.  Swanky!  Had.  This time the party lets him survive for whatever reason!  Maybe because his reasoning was so dumb?  Yes, I'll go with that and... why is there no Event marker?  Nothing on the worlp map either.  Oh, it's like that forest and the new path opens a path to.... that stupid fort that ended the first generation.  Huh.

Another Battle Series!  Our first fight is against Mila, who suddenly feels like being evil and wants to kill Minmel.  Wait, before that actually, it seems Alice's Father is alive and well after all!  And has been fighting with the Big Bad Bad Guy this whole.... time.  Like, it has to have been at least a month in-game by now.  Yowza.  Anyway!  The fight!  Utterly ruins my formation so badly it's hilarious!  Also is a joke since I still have levels on her and her dark-mist help!  They-despite being 25%-no-hit-assholes are nothing and frankly she isn't much either.  I basically dick around but manage to kill her with little effort.

So PLOT!  Mila decides to self-destruct and take all of us with her!  Minmel wants to stop her by sacrificing herself!  Leon wants to stay to also sacrifice himself because they're connected!  Everyone else wants to stay because I'm on the TRUE END and thus the power of friendship reigns!  And thus did Mila not-explode but die anyway.  Except she really didn't die and just fused back into Minmel or something.  But she mentions she'll see Minmel in hell for some reason.

And then the Big Bad shows up and taunts us like he's a threat or something or that we've actually met him before.  He's so not a threat that I piss away the first 3 turns in the fight doing nothing but healing and reviving(I forgot that it was a battle series so half my guys were low health) and still managed to Overkill his useless ass from Full HP.  And I get the Funky Chicken as my reward.

Oh yeah he had two minions that died but who cares.

So since I can't ever have a victory, he's not actually beaten!  So Minmel summons Mila from inside her and kills him.  Then Leon stabs him.  Then he's not actually dead because he has PLOT ITEM!

And then the High God of Light thinks looking down on the planet is a good idea and powers up the forces of Light or some crap and Alice's Dad lives!

And then the game ends.

Yes, really, it ends there with the Forces of Darkness beat into a retreat but not actually dead and the Characters themselves actually say that is' not over except the game ends anyway because this is a prequel.

And the Plot Sword gets renamed to Oathsworn.

But that's not all!  Since I unlocked the glorious TRUE END!  I can go to the bonus dungeon!  Told by the oracle-chick who actually isn't in the second generation at all.  To get there I have to fight five battles and--haha no, I'm done. 

Or am I?

[Niu]

Fudo, hopefully your goal with this game is completely fill out the item list, instead of just simply beating the Boundary Space.

[Fudozukushi]

Fudo, hopefully your goal with this game is completely fill out the item list, instead of just simply beating the Boundary Space.

As long as there's no missable shit from bosses or New Game+ only stuff it's possible.

[Clear Tranquil]

FFX ... Auron is good, Yuna is good, Wakka is good, Tidus ... grows up and matures over the course of the game, he really develops/grows up/etc a lot so he isn't bad per say. As noted/pointed out by others Lulu and Kimahri are the weakest links (but as I also mentioned Lulu is still more well done/fleshed out/developed than some might think which is more than can be said of some of her stereotype/counter parts in other FFs for example VIII's Quistis - I would definitely say there is more to the former than the latter yeah) (Kimahri also > Quina)

FFIX Vivi, Zidane and Garnet are good, Freya and Amarant are the weakest links, Steiner is ok but he doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, Eiko is also ok and perhaps the fourth most plot/story relevant /important of the core cast after Vivi, Zidane and Garnet but that might just be CT bias talking  I would also argue that again she is one of the more well done/fleshed out/developed examples of her particular stereotypes/FF counter parts but yeah biased. Even if we count Eiko that still leaves three characters who really aren't that important on the whole/the grand scheme and who could be removed or changed without it really effecting things all too much.

As for FFVIII Yoshi ... well the thing there is that Squall and Rinoa actually -exist- which is more than can be said of the rest of the core playable cast who basically stop existing/cease to matter for all intents and purposes after a certain stage. I might not particularly like Squall and Rinoa much as many don't but I can acknowledge that they are still the most fleshed out/developed of FFVIII's core cast for whatever that's worth. They are constantly in the limelight, hogging the screentime, they practically always exist and make sure we never forget about it. People actually -care- about them, sure the caring for the most part might be in a negative way of the has people frothing at the mouth in rage variety but the fact that they are able to effect people to such an extent emotionally means that in terms of strong/remarkable characters whom people are actually able to remember probably means they are successful and the best/strongest of FFVIII's core cast in that sense. Well ... and Squall/Rinoa being the only real stand out members of FFVIII's cast, the only ones who exist and actually still matter for all intents and purposes, the game's main story/plot, character interaction, development/growth etc ... really speaks volumes for the overall quality of the game itself I think. Considering Squall/Rinoas fleshing out/development/growth isn't exactly well done either compared to other games ... but at least it still exists

At the very least FFX definitely deserves to be above X-2 I think (unless it's a personal choice of battle system >>> all/something like that there~ )

[Luther Lansfeld]

I don't think Wakka actually believes him so much as, being the nice guy he is, wants to believe him, but knows too well that Tidus can't possibly be who he says he is. 

Also, worth noting that from my experience barring a few specific fans, Lulu and Kimhari are generally regarded as the two weakest characters in FF10 for a reason, so you singling them out...well <_<

Wakka quite clearly does believe him, though. At worst, he is at least completely ignorant of a faith that he is otherwise completely devoted too at this point. I can't really see any justification in his character for fully accepting what he perceives to be a joke about his faith unless he doesn't think it's a joke.
And yeah, they're the weakest two playables, at least. In a cast of seven (plus a villain), having 2-3 very weak characters (and then the villain) isn't really a good move. Half the cast is awful? Wow.

Yeah, I'm really not seeing this "Final Fantasy is below average for RPGs in general at characters/storyline" argument but to each their own. (Actually the only series which I think decisively beats it is Suikoden, but a few others are roughly on its level, and then you have the Grandias, Fire Emblems, and Tales of the world which are clearly worse, to say nothing of the RPGs which don't even really try at them in the first place such as Pokemon and most 8/16-bit RPGs.)

I'd personally say FFs are about average, actually. Nothing terrible, but nothing amazing. (I'd say better examples are easily available in Persona (and most SMTs for storyline, at least), Mana Khemia, Suikos, Shadow Hearts, FE8-10, BoF...) That said, I think FF8 does relatively okay on character, except for a few weak links. (The weakest links just unfortunately happen to be the main two characters.) I'd say FFIX does amazingly, FFVI has some real highlights (and a few weak characters is less of an issue in a larger cast) and FFIV even has its moments. (And I'm sure FFV/FFT are good from what I've heard, although I've not played FFV and barely played FFT.) I also give FFX less credit since it comes later, so should really be avoiding the mistakes of previous instalments, not expanding on them. >.>
(As it goes, I know I'm different to most in liking FFIX, but even seeing the flaws there, I don't see how those same flaws then get completely ignored in FFX. It does pretty much everything FFIX does badly, and then triples those problems.

Since these two games are its logical contemporaries, I am going to inquire about FF8 and FF9. I think liking MK's plot better than FF is just something I totally disagree with since I thought the game barely had a plot (and its women are atrocious PC-wise), and as much as I like a couple of games in the Breath of Fire series, I've never thought of them as being plot strong.

For FF8, what characters do you like? Most of the PCs barely have screentime in the way FF8 is written, and the two characters with all the screentime is Squall and Rinoa. Do you think Irvine is a good character? Why?

FF9 has characters like Eiko and Amarant, who fit into the same complaints you have about Lulu and Kimahri. Eiko is a child who doesn't act anything like a child! And I'm not even sure why Amarant exists in the story other than to be Zidane's shounen rival or something. I also feel like Freya is roughly on terms with Lulu in terms of characterization; someone with a smidgen of plot but not too much depth (also is a grrrl or something). I'm going to put forward the argument that those three characters roughly cancel out Lulu/Kim (I don't really agree with this, I think Amarant is horrible instead of boring, but we'll just say this, also sorry CT for Eiko hate! Oh and Quina is just thrown in the trash.)

Do you think Vivi is better than Auron? Zidane or Tidus? Garnet or Yuna? Steiner or Wakka?

If you would actually quantify what the heck you are talking about maybe arguing with you about this would be easier.

[Meeplelard]

How does one put FFX-2 above FFX in character work?  FFX characters develop, have strong identifiable personalities, etc.  FFX-2 characters do not.  Rikku is just a hyperactive character with voice acting, Yuna is but a shade of her FFX self who has some major out of character moments (no, "Tidus rubbed off on her!" is not an excuse.  If it was, we'd have seen more of that in FFX; Tidus helped broaden Yuna's viewpoint of life and removed her from the "Yay Yevon!" view point), and Paine is just Female Squall.  She doesn't develop, has no real connections with characters, just exists to foil Rikku in the grand scheme of things.

And yes, Rikku was in character based off of FFX, I won't deny...the difference is, how she was handled.  FFX, Tidus and Wakka compliment Rikku nicely, there's actual chemistry there.   She doesn't have this with Yuna or Paine, which alone turns someone whose fun into someone whose annoying.

And no one in the FFX-2 cast is remotely comparable to Auron.  Not saying Auron is the GREATEST THING EVER, but he's one of the stronger characters (developmentally speaking) in FFX.  Yes, there's Leblanc for NPCs, but they're pretty much just a one joke wonder running gag. 



And yeah, agreeing with CT on FF8.  Squall and Rinoa are the only characters with a remote sense of development, be it good or bad.  Quistis stops having ANY character work once you get out of Balamb Garden, Selphie's entire characterization is just "I'm on sugar!"  The Trabia Garden thing SHOULD have been a moment to actually develop her and show off a more serious, calm side that's internal, but instead we get treated with the Orphanage.  Irvine..."SNIPERS ARE A LONELY LIFE!" and then...uhh...what's he do after that?  Oh right, PROVOKED THE ORPHANAGE SCENE!!!  Zell has an identifiable personality, but geez if he's not meaningless.  The Balamb sequence could have been a moment to show Zell's truly heroic, good qualities rather than the Hot Tempered blow hard, but instead, he's just forced there for the sake of consistency with plot ("Hey, this is my town, I want to make sure my folks are alright!")

The thing that FFX has going for it that FF8 doesn't either?  Its love story actually kicks off early and progresses throughout.  Say what you will about how good/bad it is, this is far superior to FF8's where Squall is doing his best to ignore Rinoa the ENTIRE GAME, even to the point of wanting to leave her for dead (not cause he hates her, but because there's far more pressing matters.  This was actually a commendable leader decision seeing as THEY WERE FIGHTING A WAR.  His friends just were being idealistic fuck-tards who were all "YOU MUST SAVE RINOA! SHE'S ONE OF US!"), and then EVERYTHING regarding Squall's development is THROWN AWAY for an out of character shift into "Rinoa's Love Sick Puppy" and she's unconscious for the majority of Disc 3, and some of the scenarios are ridiculous (RINOA IN SPACE!)
Now look at FFX.  Yuna and Tidus hit it off almost immediately, and the game even shows the "love at first sight" thing with a tease line of "Hey, don't go getting any funny ideas, ya?" "No promises there big guy...but what if she comes onto me."   At first, yeah, its more "Tidus is impressed by Yuna's talents, and wants to meet this hyped summoner", and Yuna is more intrigued by the Jecht factor, but...its clearly going into something stronger.  When we hit the Make Out scene, there has been a lot of POSITIVE interaction between the two, such that when Tidus abruptly kisses her, she's fully willing to reciprocate because its what she wants as much as he does. 

Furthermore, FFX doesn't take back seat to its Love Story, but is complimented by it.  The game still stays on its main path, and the lovers are more just part of what goes on.  Contrast this to FF8 where 75% of Disc 3 is "WE MUST SAVE RINOA!!!"  That's literally it.  This is not an exaggeration; the reason they go to Esthar is get Rinoa out of her coma.  The reason they go into Space is to get Rinoa out of her coma.  The reason Squall jumps out of the escape capsule like a moron?  Rinoa.  Reason they break into a high security prison of sorts meant to hold a Sorceress?  Rinoa.  The game does hurl a big lunar crisis at them, but in the end, until you actually get into Lunatic Pandora, just about everything is "Rinoa. Rinoa. Rinoa. Rinoa!"  Yes, FFX has a lot of "Yuna. Yuna. Yuna. Yuna." but unlike Rinoa, Yuna is INTEGRAL TO THEIR SUCCESS.  She's the Summoner, she's the key element.  Rinoa is completely meaningless as a plot device in that regard until late Disc 3 where she's revealed to be a Sorceress.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Meeple, are you disrespecting Leblanc? The backrub scene is truly a pinnacle in RPG writing.

[Meeplelard]

Meeple, are you disrespecting Leblanc? The backrub scene is truly a pinnacle in RPG writing.

I see your Backrub scene and raise you a laughing scene?

[jsh357]

100% agreement with Meeple on FFX's love story.  I hear Tidus & Yuna's romance disregarded as random all the time and just can't see what people are talking about.  Possibly Zidane/Garnet aside it's the most believable romance in the series and serves to make the ending of the game even more tragic.  Even otherwise horrible moments like the laughing scene are somewhat made up for because they contribute to this plot thread in ways that don't interrupt the epic. 

[Nephrite]

I watched someone play through all of FFX-2 recently and can definitely say while on the surface, Yuna, Rikku and Paine don't seem to have a lot of depth to them, if you pay a lot of attention during the story scenes (and completely ignore Brother...) they're actually incredibly deep and I don't feel that saying Yuna's actions are "out of character" are correct at all. I also think saying "FFX-2 characters do not have strong identifiable personalities" an untrue statement, though I have a funny feeling arguing about that is a waste of time.

It's very clear that after the events of FFX, she had the weight of the people of Spira on her shoulders because she was expected to stand up and be some sort of beacon for where the people were to go. She didn't want that kind of responsibility, so she tried to pull herself out of the limelight. Of course, she was more or less forced back into it, but she eventually decides to do things her own way and not just get led by what her faith or the people's faith feel she should do.

Why am I typing anything up about FFX-2? Oh well.

[Grefter]

Joe Jones - You Talk Too Much.

[Meeplelard]

I replayed the game recently myself, Neph, and I whole heartedly disagree.

Here's the thing...Rikku has no depth.  You cannot argue this.  Her ENTIRE character is just being a hyperactive girl who never evolves beyond that.  She never actually does anything noteworthy for plot, she's just...there, and meant to contrast Paine.  There's nothing.  Right there, that's 1/3rd of the characters done.

Paine isn't deep at all.  Yes, there's the backstory stuff, but that does nothing for her.  She has a moment of reflection, but she's the same character from start to finish.  She doesn't actually change, we don't actually get any real insight for her beyond "tragic event of 2 years ago", and there's nothing.  You can say "She's deep cause she has some emotional moments cause the music and voice acting says so!" but in truth, these moments do nothing for her.  I see nothing in her as far as genuine sense of character work at all.  I guess she's equivalent to an FF5 character in an era where that's no longer remotely viable; you can't get away with some back story and a personality.  Can you seriously say that's on the same level as someone like Auron whom we see his entire past (the relevant parts anyway), he actually carries a significant aspect of the team, etc.?
Heck, even Lulu, which most in this topic agree is one of the weaker characters in FFX, exhibits more than Paine.  She has all the same stuff, and we get a good deal more insight on her character (see her talk with Tidus in Guadosalam.)


So that leaves Yuna.  What's the depth in Yuna's character?  No, she's not trying to "get out of the limelight" like you claim.  Difference between "get out of Limelight" and sort of just ride it out, which is what she did in the latter.  She took her celebrity status as something of what she was, and Lulu reinforced this by saying "You are Yuna, the High Summoner that defeated Sin.  Do no forget this, and remember, people will try to use this part of you", but she didn't try to shrug off responsibilities.  She's constantly reminded of this, so its kind of impossible for her to do that, and Yuna's not someone whose in denial to think she can do that.
Branching from that...where's her depth?  Her entire character is actually running around on this small chance of Hope that her lover could be alive.  As it progresses, it...sort of drops this point entirely, going into "oh, it wasn't him, but some ass prick who looks like him and loved a different summoner 1000 years ago", and now we're just "Save the World!" again.  The "I think your plan sucks!" is out of character, mostly cause Yuna would not say that.

Its like how when Linkara went out of his way to say Dona Troy, under no circumstance, would use the term "Retarded", let alone play off it with "Re-Todded" in countdown.  I can't see Yuna being pushed to say "your plan sucks."  Oh, but its great cause she shot down a plan that was similar to what she went through, so its forgivable, right?  Not really.  And thing is, Yuna acts kind of like a subtle bitch at other parts of the game, which is further out of character. 

I don't see this "a lot of depth' thing.   It feels strongly like "Search hard enough for something, you will find it" literary part.  Yuna comes closest, and even then, there's not much.  Yuna's character is summed up as "I want to see if my boyfriend is still alive, but I still want to help bring peace to Spira!"  That's the extent of her character.  They don't actually build upon those factors much either, but rather, more just constantly remind you of them.  Compare this to FFX where Yuna's on a mission and consistently moving forward, and her mission keeps getting challenged along the way, and we see her overcome them and become stronger (or alternatively, are indicators of her strength) as she goes on.  THAT's how you reinforce a character point.  Its not just going "I want to see you!" every few scenes, but actually establishing just how strong the character's resolve is.  I felt no actual growth in Yuna in FFX-2, where as there's a good deal of it in FFX.

[Nephrite]

I see. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree since I see a lot more depth than you want to claim. Of course, since you're so sure you're right, there's no point in me arguing with you!