Author Topic: Musing on CT character balance  (Read 5534 times)

Grefter

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 11:10:14 AM »
Clearly Elfboy is just hating on fights where Single Target is strong so he can antihype Ayla.  Ayla for Light coming up in soon DL seasons.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 11:25:35 AM »
Man Super Slash and Flea Plus can be one-rounded by a party that includes Marle AND Frog, so they don't really reward anything. The trio fight is better but still not great, although Beast Toss is probably the best thing you can do to it (should 2HKO Slash/Flea, with only a single counter, and killing one ends all threat the battle has), so you could interpret this as giving Robo and Ayla a small edge. Magus hilariously is the worst PC here, due to singletarget damage of fail (at least Marle and Frog have unites).

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 11:36:03 AM »
Man Super Slash and Flea Plus can be one-rounded by a party that includes Marle AND Frog, so they don't really reward anything.


They reward players who don't like Guns 'n Roses and Red Hot Chilli Peppers! </badumpissssssssssh>

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 08:39:07 PM »
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 09:41:30 PM »
Hey I added a brief one in the reply to Snow! I challenge you to claim that said "dungeon" deserves more. <.<

Also added the last two sidequests before the Black Omen. Lucca is kicking into high gear.

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2011, 02:03:26 PM »
Annnnnnnd Black Omen does just about what I remembered. They pretty much lul at Crono with the mass Lightning walling.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2011, 07:38:19 AM »
Final boss analyses posted! I'll maybe finish with some overall thoughts tomorrow, but yeah.

Well, I'll put this for right now. I think Ayla did pick up a lot after the Ocean Palace. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to call her cast MVP as so many do, looking over my notes, so I rescind my comments about thinking I may have overrated her. Instead, I think I may have overrated Robo a bit. But more on that tomorrow.

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2011, 10:54:36 AM »
I feel sad. =(
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Meeplelard

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2011, 11:32:28 PM »
I'm not completely sure I agree with the final assessment against Lavos, but whatever, you noted you were shakey in that regard, so I'll just shrug and move on.  Overall, good analyses, makes me want to do one.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 12:20:16 AM »
If you have any specific criticisms, please speak up as I am very open to the possibility that I may be overlooking or misweighting something!

Anyway, as promised, here's my general feeling about the characters overall!

Crono: Well, I think Cmdr said it best. The game goes out of its way to keep Crono useful while he's forced. Early on he's one of the best, if not outright best PC thanks to good stats, and a share of the best earlygame random-sweeper, Rocket Roll. He starts to fall off somewhat, but a couple of 65,000,000 BC dungeons really reward his lightning. Right up until the Ocean Palace the game seems to be trying to keep him relevant. Then he leaves, and when he comes back, he kinda lacks compelling reasons to be used. He's got a bit of every type of offence, so he's almost never the worst choice, but he lacks utility, his speed stops mattering, and his damage of both types is fairly outclassed. I sorta think he averages out to "okay", though depending on how you weight his performance while forced and his performance while optional this could fluctuate.

Marle: Once I got Haste I realised pretty quickly that this would make Marle pretty much the objective pick in every boss battle that didn't totally fail for HP (e.g. Lavos Spawn) until Haste Helms (which have their problems against Lavos anyway). She doesn't quite double party offence due to the turns that Haste requires to cast, but she's not terribly far from it, especially for battles which go longer... and also has a great performance boost to your healing/utility, something no other character really does to the same degree. So Marle's in-game use is pretty much "Haste/10"; she's rarely great for randoms (Ice Water spam in Magus' Castle aside) but her performance against bosses is great, so as long as you're running at least four PCs she should definitely be used.

Lucca: Straightforward enough. Lucca starts mediocre due to bad speed and some fire walling, but then getting magic and Taban gear makes her suddenly worth using, especially for Denadoro. After that she starts to fall off again. She goes through a pretty bad spell of techs (Napalm isn't great, Protect sucks) but then Fire 2 vaults her into having the best MT and she really takes off with Mega Bomb and Flare lategame. Just... by far the best PC against randoms in the last sections of the game, and pretty great against bosses too, between the high damage and MDef. So she's a project PC, but one for whom the payoff does feel worth it overall.

Frog: Sadly, if there's a real blip in my general feeling that "CT PC balance is good stuff", it's Frog. Okay, he has the decency to be excellent while forced (Ice Water is awesome) but from there on... there's just very little reason to use him. Other characters have better healing, his damage is bottom tier aside from Marle against bosses (and Marle more than makes up for this), and pretty poor against randoms too usually. Frog just struggles to ever find a niche. He's not so bad that you can't use him if you like him; in particular, he shares Crono's trait of never being walled tooo badly by anything (so his damage is at least consistently mediocre!). But honestly I can't see a good objective reason not to drop him after Magus' Castle and never sink another point of TP into him again. Oh well. :(

Robo: Robo's always really good at something. However, it's usually just one thing, and that one thing changes. Early on, Laser Spin and Rocket Roll are your best MT, and your best way of sweeping randoms. This gets obsoleted around Magus' Castle... but then he picks up Heal Beam, making him a very solid choice for bosses. That falls off towards the end of the game as you get Megalixirs, but he gets the Crisis Arm Uzzi Punch for the best ST damage in the game. So Robo always has -something-. The issue is he's not great against bosses early (worst ST magic damage) and not great against randoms mid-to-late (lack of good MT, speed kinda hurts a bit midgame). This is sorta why I think I overrated him. Being good (but not amazing) in one area of gameplay and mediocre in another doesn't actually add up to a super-high score. The one exception to this is once you hit Level 50, his damage just takes off to the point nobody can match, so that's probably why I remember being really impressed by him. He's still decent, but I can't say I really consider him in the running for MVP.

Ayla: Is Ayla said MVP? Hard to say. She's not perfect, of course - she spends much of the game getting walled by physical tanks and unable to target multiple enemies by herself (and lacking any outright MT dual techs at that). She also starts out behind on techs in general. She gets some ST smash that keeps her kinda okay, but it's not really enough. However, as soon as Crono leaves, she takes off. Her uses on the Blackbird are obvious, then her ST damage smashes Lavos Spawns, and from there on she's got great physical damage, double techs for MT if she needs it, and loads of stuff to steal which keeps her relevant even if Lucca is one-shotting things. The last few bosses all calling for ST or physical further helps. Just a great overall PC in the back end of the game... which is kinda surprising given how the endgame de-emphasises base speed. But then again, Ayla is part of the reason why this even happens. She did end up with the highest overall score, weighting all sections equally.

Magus: Magus is also very straightforward. Basically, he's a high-end random sweeper. Sure, Lucca eventually surpasses him due to Flare and negating his speed edge (plus any elements besides fire being superfluous late), but Magus is still consistently good at what he does after he joins. What he does not do well is damage bosses, for the most part. Dark Bomb isn't nearly as strong as I want it to be (animation hype goes >here<) and he can't use dual techs to increase his variety. He does end up with #2 magic damage by the end, though, which is something. Perhaps the bigger thing recommending him for bosses is that Magus is secretly the game's tank. With enough Def/HP to not fear physicals, loads of MDef, and the Nova Armour option should he opt for a Haste/Safe Helm, he's probably the hardest character to kill in boss fights for any given equip setup, and that is cool. I don't think it's really enough to have him see use against bosses, though, but it is something. Anyway, solid enough character to use, though if you're willing to put up with some somewhat inferior randomslaying for 2-3 dungeons, you can get by without missing him thereafter just fine.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 01:30:13 AM »
I do think Falcon Hit is worth noting for Ayla, cause from what I recall, it tends to hit an area that's rather large, thus makes up for her lack of MT to some degree, at least during the sections Crono is forced.  Maybe its just Mt. Woe is really supportive of those enemy formations though.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 03:47:08 AM »
Falcon Hit is strictly inferior to other options provided there's at least one enemy that isn't on a horizontal line (in which case it's tied). Lightning 2 + Laser Spin does enough damage to kill everything in the dungeon, as does Ice Water. Fire 2 and Ice 2 can even do this by themselves. There are lots of formations in Woe where not every enemy will be hit by Falcon Hit (almost every formation against 3+ enemies, for starters, but notably the Man Eater fights, who further punish combo attacks since confusing one person stops the entire attack). FH only seems especially valuable if you're at even lower levels than me and don't have L2s yet.

It owns Line Bomb at least! I never realised how bad this move was until this playthrough. Seriously, no damage bonus to Mega Bomb whatsoever? -_-

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2011, 08:39:57 PM »
Honestly, it feels like they just tried to be spiteful to Frog.
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Grefter

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2011, 09:00:00 PM »
Honestly if CT just called for MT healing more often and he had something that competed with Heal Beam he would be in much better standing, but would still be shit all over by Robo.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2011, 09:14:56 PM »
Well, Heal is good for Magus' Castle...or at least, Magus himself, a fight where you may actually NOT want Marle (thus won't have Aura Whirl), due to getting a 3rd weakness hitting capability (ideally through Lucca, for a number of reasons), so its handy for offsetting his MT counters there.  Otherwise, yeah, there's little reason to use him over Robo, at very least.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 12:12:24 AM »
Heal is better overall than Aura Whirl anyway. It actually has an outright better multiplier despite being MT and a single tech instead of a double tech! Granted, Aura (Whirl) still heals more than Heal because of Marle's higher magic stat... just not by nearly enough to justify the extra turn invested (it's about a third more). Aura Whirl/Beam are fine for earlygame when you have no other MT healing but any other form of MT healing obsoletes them more or less.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2011, 01:18:58 AM »
Well, I mostly remember that cause for the longest time when I was younger, I thought Heal and Heal Beam were STATUS healing spells cause CT decided to name its Status Healing item the SAME DAMN THING *Shakes fist*
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SageAcrin

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2011, 07:46:26 AM »
Pretty good assessment. Feels like some of it could go either way based on levels sometimes, but that's CT for you.

Generally there are a few things I find somewhat debatable.

Firstly, the few times I've used Robo more than average/shot for the Factory last, and as such had Shock for the Factory sidequest, I've found him to be stunningly solid there(Pretty comparable to your assessment of Magus, though obviously worse thanks to the speed issues.). I have absolutely no idea how to fairly rate this, though, or even where he falls even then. Regardless, it's fairly minor.

(You could make the same argument for Crono, but thanks to missing Death Peak's relatively high TP and Blackbird's Rubble-clones I've never actually had this happen without grinding that I can recall. At least, I assume that's why. Obviously Robo needs to be in the party quite a lot for this though.)

The other thing I find notable is that you essentially say "Marle's main uses for the Zeal chain are Haste and Double Charm" and rate her fourth, for the Zeal segment.

Double Charm's nice but it's one counter from Lavos Shell(Which will probably down someone, but on the other hand it's a fairly short battle.), and a few counters from Zeal(Which, when you aren't eating them at the same time, are actually not that threatening.). I can grant that.

However, when the rest is said and done, if you've gotten both Haste Helms(And you should; Zeal's big danger is her getting out of control, you want that speed over MDef, burning an item on a doubleturn is much preferable than trying to gauge exactly how much she's doing when.) the only person Haste works on is, er, one person which probably has the lowest damage output.

EG, her.

Now, I can see saying speed boost Marle is a better healer than Frog, but her damage is massively worse than Crono and Magus both(11 power Ice vs 25 power Dark Bomb or Confuse.) vs Zeal, so her damage output is by no means approaching theirs even while getting a fair deal of speed on them.

I agree with the Robo at #2 assessment, so I can see fielding her perhaps to Haste him, give the Helm to her, and net an overall better MDur...but realistically Magus can cast Magic Wall or a Barrier item can be used; if I'm recalling Robo's relative(bad) MDef right, a comparable result to him having an actual decent MDef helm. And I rarely recall the fight falling out of control at relatively normal levels so badly that you can justify needing both Shell effects and high MDef there.

The added issue I have is that the damage tends to be a combination of MT and ST that doesn't really reward her ST heals. If you try to focus on the people that got damaged more, other people go down as you get bad luck. Life 2 helps with that(And Lifeline is pretty okay for the entire fight.), but ultimately the times I've tried to rely on Marle for healing it's been a long game of catchup followed by me doing the thing my first instinct said was right. Namely, tossing a Lapis/Megalixer/Heal Beam/MT healing combo every so often instead of trying to constantly keep up with the damage with ST. This obviously is going to vary on levels, but it's my own experience with trying to do so.

As such I'm having a hard time justifying her over #6 mentally. Sadly I'm still thinking Frog's worse. Poor Frog.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2011, 08:24:00 AM »
Quote
Now, I can see saying speed boost Marle is a better healer than Frog, but her damage is massively worse than Crono and Magus both(11 power Ice vs 25 power Dark Bomb or Confuse.) vs Zeal, so her damage output is by no means approaching theirs even while getting a fair deal of speed on them.

Mmm, I don't think that's quite correct. Assuming specs on Ayla and an earring on Robo for your other two attackers, leaving Sun Shades for our theoretical third (and ignoring Lucca), and just plugging in the tabless L50 numbers (since I have them handy; they're only approximations!)

Robo's Uzzi Punch: ~3200
Ayla's Triple Kick: ~2900
Crono's Confuse: ~2000
Magus' Dark Bomb: ~1500
Marle and Ayla's Cube Toss: ~3900 (so ~1000 net for Marle's contribution)

Considering she has haste and Crono/Magus won't, she... actually ends up with only slightly worse offence than Crono (would be a tie, but Marle loses a turn casting Haste and may not always be able to help out with double techs). Granted, it depends on Charm's hit rate against the hands as to whether Twin Charm's counter avoidance pays off here. I dunno. She does actually beat Magus on offence here, but Magus does -much- better against Mammon Machine (unless of course we use Lucca in place of one of Ayla or Robo, then Marle's looking great there). So it... does basically depend on how good Twin Charm is overall, which relies on charm's hit rate which... I just don't know. And yet another variable: if you don't snag the second Haste Helm, Marle just -wins-.

But then the Marle/Ayla/Robo party I floated is rather terrible against Mammon whereas a party with Magus or Crono is certainly looking better. We can debate how much this MATTERS (Mammon isn't killing you unless something's seriously up with your levels/gear) but I've been consistently applying a standard of a party that ends fights more quickly being generally superior. So yeah, kinda thinking she may need to drop to 6, there.

Also, I do have to point out that I really don't think much of Marle's ST healing. You sorta put your finger on why; better MT options exist which are typically more efficient (give CT boss offence this much, it does tend to be MT pretty often). And by this point Full Tonics and Elixirs are everywhere, so Cure 2 just has no value whatsoever. Life 2/Life Line bring some pretty unique utility, Haste gets hyped every other entry in these analyses, but Marle's most obvious support spells are actually something I find quite lackluster. Honestly, if Marle didn't have Haste she'd be down there with Frog in the "clearly worse than everyone else" category (if possibly still a little better because Ice 2 > Water 2 and the revival tricks > Frog Squash in my books).

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2011, 08:43:51 AM »
Quote
if you don't snag the second Haste Helm, Marle just -wins-.

Yeah, I'll agree here. There's not really much of a debate for me.

This also varies a bit on how many Tabs you get, I think? Speed Tabbing both to 16 is what you assumed I think, which is fair(As, really, if you know you can steal them, you should.).

As to the healing...well, Marle's uses for healing are obviously pretty weak relatively, you covered why. I tend to forget Full Tonics somewhat for whatever reason(I think it's because I didn't use many items on early playthroughs, and by the time I did I knew of Lapis steals.), but otherwise yeah I agree. Life 2 is a pretty good spell(Heck, Life's okay, as it often saves the revived person from eating MT and dying, whereas a Revive does not IIRC.), Lifeline is good, she does tend to give you high MT healing multitechs, but overall it's just not a great set, yeah.

It's kinda depressing how much Marle would be served by learning Heal instead of Cure 2, thinking on it. Cure is pretty often close to full and two redundant skills in CT... Oh well, Frog needed something on Marle, even if it's on the weak side as edges go.
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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2011, 05:38:16 AM »
Hmm... would it be okay to port the main post and the quick evals on the PCs to the DLWiki?

If so, how do you want to be cited? "NEB"/NeoElfboy/"Elfboy"/Dark Holy Elf?

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Re: Musing on CT character balance
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2011, 05:39:49 AM »
Dark Holy Elf's my official forum name, so might as well go with that. And yeah, you're certainly more than welcome to put this up there.

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