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Author Topic: Musing over WA4 Balance  (Read 3424 times)

Tide

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Musing over WA4 Balance
« on: January 25, 2011, 05:06:35 AM »
[18:46:06] <+Tide> NEB's topic makes me want to do a rerun of WA4 and do that same analysis
[18:47:01] <+Elecman> Dooo it

So yeah. Plus I am due for my yearly WA4 replay (or has it been two years now). So now is a good time as any to be doing something like this if ever.

For those of you who haven't played Wild ARMS 4 before: 1) Shame on you 2) play it 3) See NEB's notes on his CT topic, replacing CT for WA4. The main differences are that WA4's cast size is smaller, and there is typically less argument over who is better. Raquel and Arnaud are typically regarded as tier above Jude and Yulie. However, even then the difference between Raq/Arn and Jude/Yulie isn't so apart that you can clearly say "Jude is the worst" or "Yulie is the worst". So this little playthrough/experiment/ranting will be my way of figuring for myself how the relative in-game tierness is like.

Similar to NEB, I don't hope to change people's opinion but if it does, hey, so much the better. And yes, reading is good. Feedback is also good. You are welcome to post your thoughts/agrees/disagrees with how the analysis ends up running. Now then some ground rules for this playthrough:

1) While I won't be doing a minimalist run, I will be doing a run where I fight "what is normal". So in other words, I won't sit around to grind for apples. However, I won't be Double Jump Acceleratoring my way through the game. The reason for this is because WA4 randoms have degrees of competency. It'll also replicate more of an original playthrough.

2) Class levels are a variable asset. Same with the HP/MP bar. I will note adjustments when I make them and what abilities I get. Same with equips and other things. This is important to highlight how a certain PC may become good at a point in time.

3) Unlike NEB, I won't be using stat up apples even if I get them.

4) I'll be doing the after-game (hopefully), which should stretch the game out from start to finish basically. So yes, we get to look at RAGU (I'll be using a 2nd playthrough game for this) and even arena battles.

5) Kills. I'll be distributing kills on a "first come first serve" basis. If Raquel will receive an extra 0.7x multiplier more often because she is killing more things, that's a notable advantage she has over say, Yulie. It makes little sense to take that advantage away from her since you just normally don't pass the multiplier around like that and certainly not reflective of a more average playthrough.

6) Oh goes without saying, but no ACF data. Not everyone has it. It's also more akin to a new game plus issue even if the advantages aren't overly large.

And with that...on with the show.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 05:12:30 AM by Tide »
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Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 06:27:59 AM »
CIEL SHELTER

The battles don't really begin until after I get Arnaud. So for the first bit of backtracking back to town, I only have Arnaud and Jude for the enemies. Although these are largely tutorial battles, Arnaud destroys Jude at the current moment against these randoms. Neither can OHKO, but Arnaud solidly 2HKOs without weakness. He OHKOs if hitting weakness. Meanwhile, Jude 3HKOs at best. Arnaud also starts 3 levels higher than Jude, giving him a negligble stat boost (no notable abilities). When the boss fight starts, Arnaud still has a decent edge against Jude at first. This is due to Jude not having Long Range and his originals being sealed off. Still when the soldiers do move in the roles reverse. Arnaud struggles to 3HKO occassionally with his magic, while Jude 2HKOs solidly. Let's not go into Arnaud's awesome accuracy because I'm pretty sure he missed everytime I used it as an attempt to conserve magic. Tony basically makes this go in favour for Jude unless you some how manage to bait Tony into standing on the Fire/Water HEX and moving Arnaud to the other (possible). Jude just has a fresh pool of MP, takes hits better, is faster and deals better damage without the set up. Overall, this is pretty even with Jude > Arnaud for Tony and Arnaud > Jude for the randoms, with Jude inching ahead (the randoms are largely non-threatening as the tiebreaker here).

1. Jude
2. Arnaud

FORSAKEN PATH
Yulie joins the team, but still no access to the CG graphs yet. Yulie doesn't contribute much, even though the first tutorial with her in it has the game screaming USE MATERIAL. Oh lack of FP, how you make this much more interesting. Instead, Arnaud's the bread maker here, getting the FPs via killing things with some minor gem use and Blast. The other enemies here are largely prey for Jude. Most of them hit defense, and on top of that, there is a flyer which he can also swat down. Most other things get blasted by Phantom Line. Arnaud takes second easily for being not made of a sheet of paper and offense worth noting when there is no FP.

1. Jude
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie


CULANE TEMPLE
Our first dungeon with all 4 PCs and the CG graph + Force abilities unlocked. So yeah, lots of things to play around. I set up Arnaud with Jump & Act for randoms since mobility is very important for him to get good damage from gems and Blast. Raq, likewise, invests in Move & Attack along with Obstacle Smash. Jude and Yulie don't have much important things to invest in so they just get Class levels. The enemies here are notable for being largely bait to almost everyone's key attacks. Yulie falls notably behind because she needs to utilize the gems Arnaud is making or get a turn with 25 FP. Surprisingly, Arnaud is probably the best character here for randoms followed by Jude. Raquel at this point can't use Yulie's FP Advantage for her Intrude chains, so if she has to move, she only has a ST killer damage, which Arnaud does with his gems anyway. Plus he's faster. She's better in a few select situations (enemies in her surrounding HEX), but Arnaud can snipe off the upcoming enemies or more dangerous enemies so it isn't as huge of an advantage. When the turn order is unfavourable to her, she can't even see a turn, which sucks. Jude and Arnaud are pretty even (Arnaud needs a little more set up + gem use, but Jude has some issues with a Masa Gnomes due to their ARM jamming property) but Arnaud likely inches out by a tiny bit.

As for the bosses, Trask kind of mocks Jude something fierce. He's clearly the worst person in that battle. Meanwhile, Arnaud and Yulie and Raquel all have solid attacking options, with Yulie being the best out of everyone due to her starting position. Fire Gems are in abundance too since there was a chest earlier that had 8x Fire gems. Arnaud can also get gems boosted but needs Jump & Act + 25 FP. He's probably second best, then followed by Raquel since she's losing on speed and the lack of FP preventing her from making it up with Intrude. She also deals less damage than Arnaud if his gems get boosted. Tony reverse the situation with Raquel > Jude > Arnaud > Yulie. Raquel hits harder, tanks hits better and all of sudden with extra soldiers, you're generating more FP for Raquel to fuel her Intrude chains. One rounding here we go! And of course, to get her the FP, Jude is capable of one shotting the Novice Troopers. Arnaud can throw in Slow Down to keep people alive, but his offense here isn't good since everything halves his elemental blasts and his physical still has massive accuracy issues. Yulie has trouble just staying alive.

1. Arnaud
2. Jude
3. Raquel
4. Yulie


CELESTI RUINS
Yulie gets Sanctify. Meanwhile, Arnaud goes back to using Jump & Act, since again, mobility is key. Jude gets Long Shot, which is always nice since the added range means he doesn't have to waste MP if he needs to target something that is a little farther away. I also get new weapons and armor. Jude goes for the defense since the next few bosses are heavily p.hysical focused. Yulie gets the defense one as well due to Yulie evade and her RES already being godlike. Arnaud and Raquel get the armor that focuses more on RES and evade. Finally, I drop an Alter Part into ATP, since uh...lol1.25 ACN.

The randoms here are a notable knotch above the one in Culane Temple. For starters, some of those monsters can't get OHKO'd by Raquel. She's off by this very tiny margin, but it matters a lot, especially with that FP deficiency still in play. Yulie's Sanctify also doesn't OHKO. No, the only person who has reliable OHKOs are Arnaud and his Blasts. Go figure. Still, the most important person in this area for randoms is probably Jude. Without the Masa Gnomes, he maintains those few advantages over Arnaud here without losing out too badly on offense. Arnaud is still stuck to ST, but again, snipering with him works. Raq still needs FP Advantage support from Yulie or some better accessories since half the battles end before she gets a turn. And Yulie is Yulie. It's bad when you can barely do anything once your turn arrives.

Bosses, Arnaud > Raquel > Yulie > Jude for Earthbound Dead. Earthbound Dead's Absorb MP is extremely nasty on Jude and can totally drain any and all good offense he has. Arnaud is very important because him casting Slow Down works as a counter to Earthbound Dead's own Slow Down somewhat. And you really don't want to get Slow Down'd at this point since it is just so brutal. Also, Earthbound Dead has a good chance of moving around the Water HEX, which means Arnaud gets boosted damage (becoming the best damage dealer) and his evade actually keeps him somewhat safer than Jude/Raquel. Bonus points if you can match your HP for Crisis Evade. Raq's offense is good, but she's really dependent on Earthbound Dead not casting Slow Down on her last attack. Otherwise...ew, 43 RFX Raquel. Yulie's offense and durability isn't good and could give Jude the advantage, but she has Protect. And Protecting Jude/Raquel just makes them absolute tanks here. So she wins out. Jeremy 1 does reverse the situations with Raquel being the most important, followed by Jude, then Yulie = Arnaud. Neither Yulie/Arnaud are great here. Arnaud has some good support options and offense, but it cuts into Raq's Intrude chains. So his offense lead isn't huge. Raq needs time to get a turn, but when she does she easily bulldozes past him. Intrude once again, being the absolute broken that it is at 25 FP and once FP gets gathered. Jude's notable for being the person who helps add the most FP. Plus he's very good bait here with Protect on him + Ley Boost to offset triple turns from Jeremy. So, Raquel > Jude > Arnaud = Yulie

Balance here is very even overall. Counting the ranks each PC scored, Raq, Arnaud and Jude all very close to each other. Raquel barely inches out over Arnaud and Jude, but it is notably close. I'll call it even between all three, or at least between Arnaud and Raq, since even at his worst here, Arnaud isn't dead last in any situation. Yulie's notably terrible at this point though.

1t. Arnaud
1t. Raquel
3. Jude
4. Yulie


GREAT STAIRWAY
Yulie finally reaches level 9, which means at the cost of all other abilities, I can get FP Advantage. This is actually a very worthwhile tradeoff as much of Yulie's early skillset is sorta unimpressive (Revive/Sanctify). How I treat that for rankings...well it'll matter more for shorter fights obviously. Meanwhile, Raquel and Arnaud don't pick up anything new since they picked up their awesome early skills largely. I do skimp on picking up Obstacle Smash since it just not that useful. Jude meanwhile gets nothing. Joint Struggle is just too impractical to set up in a random battle.

Most of the monsters are here are largely fodder although a few spoilers stand out. Raquel has trouble with the Pordages. Even though they don't really attack, they steal items, which are annoying. Jude can take them down rather easily and Arnaud can swat them out of the air with his physical. The other two must use gems, which Raquel herself normally doesn't generate. The Pricklys spoil Jude somewhat, but they have terrible magic defense. So once again gems to the rescue. Arnaud isn't spoiled by anything here so I guess he's the overall winner. Yulie is still struggling again although this isn't really surprising. FP Advantage doesn't do much right now just largely because the enemies are fairly easy to destroy I suppose.

1. Arnaud
2. Raquel (tie break on enemey threat level)
3. Jude
4. Yulie


WHITE ORPHANAGE
The randoms here get a noticable step up again, and the spoiling potential rises further more. In particular, Arnaud hates Iron Maidens. They're extremely accurate and Executioner hurts like hell. It deals nearly 75% PCHP to him in a single hit. He has to take them out first with Freeze gems/Water Blast, but even then its ST and these things show up in groups of three. Iron Maidens can also jam ARMS which makes Jude hate them equally. Meanwhile the slug enemies stop Raquel dead since not even she can plow through it with her physicals. And if we're talking about gems, Jude gets the job done the best here simply because he can Mystic and OHKO. Empusa's are also in this place and they too have the ARM jamming property. The least threatening enemy are probably the Blue Books, which Arnaud and Yulie basically kind of mock. Hard to place a definitive winner, but I'll say that Raquel probably has the overall best performance against everything. No weapon jamming or taking massive amounts of damage is always good. Arnaud and Jude probably tie. Yulie doesn't do much unless she gets a turn on a Leypoint. Then she wins forever. Is that worth something over Arnaud/Jude? Hm...probably not.

Bosses! Miscreation is wrecked more or less horribly by Arnaud, who sets up the team for a good defense/offensive positioning. Yes, it matters this much. It makes it easy to defend everybody with 1 Protect, and Jude gets Joint Struggle off doing nearly 4k damage, which is higher than Raquel's strikes (plus he's faster!). Oh and he can cast Slow Down off of that same turn. Raquel dishes out the remainder of the offense when she gets the chance. Overall, everyone does something. I'll reckon the Joint Struggle is probably the least important here, just because Miscreation's Stone Bullets hurt so bad, Protect is almost a necessity when grouping everyone together. Plus Yulie tanks those like a champ when they occur. Arnaud > Raquel > Yulie > Jude. Jeremy 2 is similar in the same respect. Arnaud still helps the team group, but since Raquel starts over on the opposite side of Jude, and Jeremy just loves rushing down to the centre, it is harder for her to get within the same HEX. She still deals the most damage, and as such as is probably the most important person here. Yulie's Protect is not as important - casting it really just helps her out instead since Arnaud could double as an item healer if needed. Raquel > Arnaud = Jude > Yulie

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Jude
4. Yulie


AERIAL FORTRESS EUALIA
Not much in terms of randoms since so much of it is action segments. There's a fixed fight with some soldiers, where Yulie > Jude > Arnaud > Raquel in a pretty clear cut fashion. Lack of speed sinks Raquel in that pretty bad. Incubator, Arnaud is once again, the man for setting offense and defense up. This time he Jumps to the centre and similarly casting Slow Down. Instantly gives Jude 5000 damage or so and stops Incubator from dealing serious offense. Yulie can throw up Protect and Raquel usually just ends up mopping things down. Of course, FP Advantage is needed for this. Scythe on the other hand is weird since so much of it depends on how badly his evasion kicks in. In general though, Arnaud > Jude > Raquel > Yulie. Arnaud can win that battle without threat to himself as Scythe's damage is unimpressive (especially after Slow Down) and he can deal solid damage back with Wind elemental Blasts. Jude can Auto-win if there is a human shield in the centre. Raquel has offense, but may bite it to Suction (completely dependent on does Scythe evade at a cruicial moment). Yulie cannot do much without breaking boxes which is bad since Scythe can move and then get more damage. Well she can Protect to stop Jude/Arnaud/Raquel from taking damage I guess. Raquel's Poison bite is also largely useless due to 5% damage being terrible, even if Scythe is on a dodging streak.

1. Arnaud
2. Jude
3. Raquel
4. Yulie


WUNDERWALTRUM
Vaccumons are bad. They have no offense, but they can Eject you back to the start of the dungeon, so they should be killed first for entirely different reasons. Unfortunately, Arnaud is bad against these due to elemental halving. Jude also has issues since there are Critters across various battles and they can jam his ARM. Instead, we get Raquel. The only issue is getting her a turn, which is sometimes a bigger problem then anticipated. Critters themselves are best taken care of by Arnaud. Just Jump to the most threatening one/grouped together bunch and use a gem and watch them explode. Raquel is fine at handling them too but speed suffers here. She does however, get a chance to learn Red Zone, which means if they hit hard enough, she auto wins. Yulie still auto wins when she stands on an elemental HEX with 25 FP and this time, it is enough to beat Jude since there are so many Critters and Jude's offense at this point is slowly descending into mediocre with Phantom Line.

The big cheese herself is similar in both battles, big difference being Yulie learning FP Advantage and Turn Shift in the 2nd one, making her probably more important than Raquel as a result. In fact, I wager, Raquel is probably the worst person in the Belial fights just because of lack of speed + Distortion being a massive pain in the rear. In terms of damage, she loses to Jude when he gets Joint Struggle going, which isn't hard either thanks to Arnaud being able to chain move the team with Jump. Jump really shows its colours in the second fight, where the first Jump gets Jude into prime position of launching massive Joint Struggles, lets Arnaud and Yulie get ready to smack her with gems and introduces a new line to Belial's algorithm to use her terribad basic physical.

Another dungeon where three people are relatively close together. I'm ranking Yulie/Jude/Raquel with Yulie being up slightly ahead since Belial is really one of the harder fights in the game. But FP Advantage + Turn Shift just gives you so much control over that fight. Jude and Raquel both have their good points (Jude is better against Belial where Joint Struggle set ups are more practical) and Raquel is better against the randoms so effectively tie score here.

1. Arnaud
2. Yulie
3t. Jude
3t. Raquel


SEA OF TREES
Short and simple pecking order of Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude. Phantom Line is falling noticably behind now and Sextons have the Hard attribute, which just hurts Jude even further. Jude losing his potential to OHKO is really starting to hurt him. On the plus side? He now has Item Steal. Raquel is the best person here since she's developing more into the physical powerhouse now and despite lack of speed still existing, with Jude's offense dropping and Yulie now getting Turn Shift and FP Advantage, she's starting to see turns. And well, we know what happens when Raquel gets turns. Arnaud remains dominant otherwise by still being able to effectively snipe off some key targets like the damn toads or Sextons with good gem use and Jump, preventing people from sustaining too much damage. He doesn't have the battle-winning ability if given a turn like Raq does though.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude


CALUCION PASS
I sell off 4 Gella Cards to raise 6000 Gella so I can keep everyone's equipment up to date. Jude is now going MDEF Armor over the DEF armor since the bosses upcoming use magic attacks and he already explodes when looked at by those. Arnaud and Raquel maintain MDEF Armors since it's the best type for both. Yulie gets the DEF Armor. Yulie also equips a shiny new Silver Sun, raising her HP to around 2200 or so. This is around the same tier as Raquel when she gets weighted down by ability purchases. So basically Yulie went from game worst to just bad for HP. Still an improvement.

I don't manage to Steal much with Jude although I do get some Potion Berries. The rest of the randoms here are largely trivial for Arnaud and Raquel. Jude is notably suffering since not only are enemies armored so his offense gets halved, but his gems don't deal much damage either, so he's in a pretty bad spot. Well he still has stealing I guess. The Orcs are around the only time when his offense doesn't suck hardcore, but they seem to be pretty rare. On another note, Yulie will most likley not be last from this point forth due to Turn Shift. In the event where her turn is a dead turn, she can simply pass the turn off to the next person. As a result, she can function as a less powerful Replay or Mime, and even if she can't be useful that turn, someone else can. And their failure to do much isn't reflective of her position. Between Raquel and Arnaud...well Arnaud gets his turns earlier so snipe, snipe, snipe. Sometimes he gets 2 before Raquel gets one, so double sniping. Awesome.

1. Arnaud
2. Raquel
3. Yulie
4. Jude


PALAPATA PASSAGE
I grab most of the treasures I'm here. Most notable is the Fatal Stinger, which I can later synth into a Mythral Edge. The randoms here absolutely hate Arnaud. This is by far his worst performance so far and it is very notable since just about every enemy can spoil him bad. Miserys have Confusion. Due to how WA4 Confusion works, if it hits him, his evade is dead and he's pretty much DOA by the time his turn comes around. The Spartois are accurate, which is also bad for him. And the Efreets have Magic Blocker, which means he has to use Gems (so less power even if he could Blast otherwise). Just about every enemy also halves elemental damage except for Garms. In fact, Garms are the only enemies he can handle effectively, but so can everyone else. Even when he can hit the undead enemies' vulnerable points (Fire), he still can't OHKO; he's off by a very tiny margin, but yeah. Wow. It doesn't make up for how well he does against Grabboid. As for everyone else, Yulie's Sanctify has gained notable power at this point, and she's able to kill the undead much better than Jude or Arnaud. Raquel is Raquel, so she's still awesome when she gets a turn. Due to Arnaud kinda failing and Jude's offense sort of in the gutter, she's very likely to get those. Jude himself isn't terrible against any of the enemies. In fact, Phantom Line is able to OHKO Miserys and Spartois. He does however run a risk of running out of MP, and when he does, he's no better than Arnaud against them. Well, at least he has physical durability.

Grabboid himself isn't notably threatening when you're not in a time crunch. Illusion does make Arnaud have the most notable offense, dealing 4x damage off Vortex gems without worry about accuracy. And again, opening Jump to get people together along with Slow Down or Illusion. Illusion lets him now do this with greater liberty to protect Yulie. Raquel then has the next best damage and she can move out of Illusion Hexes to attack. I reckon Arnaud is a little better, just because that Jump sets up Yulie for also gem use and Jude can now Joint Struggle for greater damage. Yulie's decent here thanks to Grabboid's weakness and Earth magic attacks, making her an absolute tank once Protect is cast. She just shrugs off the counters. And if Arnaud threw in Illusion earlier, even she can dodge the physicals too. She ends up better than Jude as Jude's only contribution is Joint Struggle, which needs set up and may prevent Raquel from moving around a bit more freely.

Boss Kresnik is boss Kresnik. So uh...yeah

1. Raquel
2. Yulie
3. Jude
4. Arnaud


NEVE'D ARGENTO
Well Arnaud is now back to being fairly solid but still has some share of faults. However, this isn't necessary just him. Angels in this part of the world map are absolute terrors. They have accurate physicals and a solid magic back up. As a result, Jude doesn't like them either. Neither does Raquel since they fly and oh dear lord does she not like that flyer penalty. So who takes care of them best? Usually, it is Jude. They seem to prefer their physicals if they can use it. Plus he gets a flyer bonus here, so Jude can effectively KO with a basic physical. Most of the other enemies here are otherwise unremarkable. The Flaeretys have Hydro pressure, which can certainly cause death on an unlucky draw. Yulie's MDEF is therefore notable for that. However, they're not durable and everyone can OHKO these things with a fairly safe margin. Overall, a pretty balanced area it seems with no clear cut winner. Jude may win the toss up as the result.

1. Jude
2t. Arnaud
2t. Raquel
2t. Yulie


CERULEAN TUNNEL
This is a weird place. Again, the enemies are set up so that some of them spoil certain characters so it's hard to call who is dominating. Arnaud hates dealing with Marids, who have Confusion. There is a Clear Chime here that he can use, but while he may not like confusion, the person who you never want Confused is Raquel (hi there massive OHKOing machine). So yes, he can circumvent it, but it may not be to the party's overall advantage. Raquel gets spoiled by Ameobas who have the soft attribute. Luckily, she can draw on the gems that Arnaud and Yulie made and can still Intrude effectively that way. Jude is just kinda mediocre overall. No OHKOs, and Item Steal hasn't really paying off. But at least he's fast. The other enemy of note are Mad Anglers. These things have a lot of offense and are very tanky. They can take a Raquel physical and still be decently off, so you have to Intrude to finish them. Alternatively, you can have Arnaud cast Fire Blasts on them and OHKO with a weakness. He occassionally misses and requires the Marcus Garb (also found here) to secure the kill. Still, it's notable in that he's the only person who can lay a claim to this. Between the PCs, it's really a matter of which enemies are the worst to encounter and off hand, I'll say the Marids are worse and place Raquel just above Arnaud. Arnaud doesn't have a MT way to take care of Ameobas, and their main status (POIZN) is just not as threatening as Confusion when they hit. Yulie retains third in the midst of all of this due to Turn Shift and FP Advantage.

Then we get Krakken and Hugo. Krakken is notably tanky. I want to emphasize this since this beast can eat 5-6 Raquel physicals. So unless you saved up a massive Intrude string, don't expect to 1 round him. Jude once again is terrible here. Krakken's physical having an Isolate effect really hurts him since he can't set up Joint Struggle effectively. This makes Jude's best offense a mix between his physical or Phantom Line, both of which are not outdamaging Raq or Arnaud's contribution. Yulie herself mainly uses Turn Shift and nothing but to effectively give her many turns to Arnaud and Jude for offense. Arnaud with gems and the Marcus Garb can deal a fairly solid amount of damage. That with Slow Down and good MDEF would probably make him the leader, but that ITE physical is not his friend. The Isolate effect hurts him too since it may push him away from a Leypoint to utilize boosted gems. This leaves Raquel as being the most uneffected (which is true). She still doesn't like Hydro Pressures but having the best offense + being not effected by Isolate sounds like a clear winner here. Hugo is a mixed effort, but Yulie is probably last in this since her durability is just so bad here. Even when Hugo uses that Magic Bow, it still high 3HKOs her notably (borderline 2HKO almost). Arnaud being able to bring control to the battle is second only to Raquel's offense in bringing Hugo down in record time. Clear ranking order here of Raquel > Arnaud > Jude > Yulie.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude


AUTUMN RIVER
There aren't too many notable enemies here. In fact, aside from the frog enemies which are a fairly rare encounter (20% or so), most of them are just pushovers. As a result it's not really worth evaluating each character's worth. However, the Evil Deads are extremely vulnerable to Sanctify, so Yulie is better on offense than usual. Hurray!



MIM'KRILU SKYWAY
Remember the Angels back in Neve'd Argento? They're more powerful cousins are here. The Archangles still have the same high accuracy, flyer and magic combo, making them one of the nastier enemies here. Jude remains the best at taking care of them with Arnaud being a close second. Raquel has massive accuracy issues due to that flyer penalty. The Fairylights are fairly nonthreatening if alone. The problem is, they usually come in packs. And if they spam Hyperion Blaster continuously, it gets messy quick. Oh and they have Magic Blocker and are fairly evasive too, which makes Arnaud pretty bad against them. Raquel meanwhile handles them and is probably the best too since there's a good chance several of them will group together, letting one Intrude swing build enough FP for another. Finally, we also have Oses. To the surprise of no one, Jude really doesn't fair well here since his magic damage is terrible. Raquel isn't much better, but at least she can OHKO occassionally. A fairly close race overall. I haven't mentioned Yulie much, and that's because she doesn't really excel against any particular enemy. She has her typical strengths and can take out Oses too, so I guess that makes her Arnaud with some bonus benefits. Hmm...tiebreak on threat level would probably be Jude > Raquel > Yulie > Arnaud.

This dungeon is also notable for several powerups: Witch Badge, Macha Brand and Elder Record. Expect to see everyone diverge out more in the upcoming two dungeons.

As for bosses, Spriggan has a simple pecking order as well. Raquel > Jude > Yulie > Arnaud. Arnaud needs 5 turns to kill his mini-Spriggan fight. Raquel meanwhile takes 2 and Jude takes 3. This means by the time he reaches Yulie, both Jude and Raquel would've gotten a head start in CT and possible a few turns. Since everyone starts where Yulie is, Jude can get some pretty strong Joint Struggles off against the bosses support. Raquel meanwhile now has a massive offense boost thanks to the Macha Brand. And she crits more likely too. With Red Zone, this time around, I killed Spriggan before Arnaud even *entered* the fight. Yulie doesn't have any offense for the bosses, by Turn Shifting + Protect lets her cover herself, Jude and Raquel well enough so they can get turns relatively unharmed. The dolls vary slightly. I'm not sure whether to hold them against Red Zone here since I have to stress just how it is possible to let them smack Raquel right into Red Zone range. And when that happens, it's a gg. On the other hand, with the battles I fought, even twinking the CG gauge for pure MP, Raquel still can't reach Red Zone from one Banned Spell?! Considering that into the picture, and Arnaud easily leads here since he can Jump to move the team immediately out of the deadly centre HEX and can give himself and Yulie better offensive options too. Jude still has Joint Struggle so his offense is still pretty notable as long as Arnaud does the moving around. Raquel leads damage now fairly easily and is just slightly behind Jude. Still with Intrude, she more than makes up for it and is likely to take care of the dolls barring boosting your EXP and Gella gains. Arnaud > Raquel > Jude > Yulie.

1. Raquel
2. Jude
3. Yulie
4. Arnaud


DESOLATE RAILWAY
Oh boy. The randoms here are absolute assholes. Lots of physical offense and if Yulie starts in the centre HEX (1/7 chance), she is almost guaranteed to be dead. The main enemy of issue are the Jack-o-Laturns. These things have Confuse and fire magic that HURTS when it hits. Oh and if confuse hits, remember your evasion is dead in the water. So um...that + enemies with nasty physical damage = no. Thankfully, you have *2* characters that can take care of them. Raquel loses to Arnaud in speed, but Arnaud doesn't have multiple strikes that Raquel does with Intrude. It's pretty even since sniping one that gets an upcoming turn can prevent you from a nasty situation. The other members of the peanut gallery are: Mercurius and Gremlin. Gremlins are highly evasive, have an evade buff and are ARM jammers. They're pretty nasty, but they get OHKO'd by pretty much every sans Yulie (who needs Material). So in the grand scheme of things, they're only a problem if you let the battle carry out too long. Mercurius are like Empusa's but without ARM jamming. They also have a Wind Magic attack but seem to greatly favour their physicals. Superconductive Gimlet in particular is very strong and you never want to get hit by it. The weakness lets again, Arnaud and Raquel take care of them pretty easily. Jude sorta struggles, but can manage with Phantom Line and as long as his ARM doesn't jam. The scrub enemies are the Mollusk Hares which basically explode if you use gems and hit their weakness. Think Arnaud = Raquel > Jude > Yulie. Yulie exploding here due to the randoms with powerful physical offense really sucks.

1t. Arnaud
1t. Raquel
3. Jude
4. Yulie


ETEMANANKI
Lots and lots of battles due to the dungeon's length. The most annoying enemy of the set here are the Jammer Imps. As their name implies, they basically just love to screw over your options. From Misery to FP Buster along with being ARM jammers. They suck. A lot. Raquel and Arnaud are both solid against them with the same issue again being speed vs. ability to hit more than one when FP is available. Due to FP Buster, both characters can be without their tools, in which case, Raquel usually does better since she doesn't have to be on a specific HEX or right beside them in order to score the KO. Kefa's have powerful physicals along with the Hard attribute and an elemental weakness. More bait for Arnaud and Raquel. Jude, meanwhile, hates life that the only monster he's relatively decent here against are the Calenos. They birds fly and spew status and steal items. Direct damage? None what-so-ever. On the other hand, if he steals a Tiny Flower off of them, well, he would easily be the most important person by far. But the rareness of the steal along with their speed and likelihood of escaping battles makes this unlikely. Raquel can handle these with gems although the flyer penalty kinda wrecks her day with Intrude (she basically needs to spend two turns now to have an effective KO). Arnaud handles these well enough. Mus also ruin Jude's day. Raquel is happy her magic score doesn't suck and again, can occassionally score that OHKO. Arnaud and Yulie of course don't have problems here. Nybasses are the scrub enemies since they are relatively slow and are extremely frail to the point where Yulie and Arnaud can OHKO with their physicals. They actually have Reflect, but the craptastic physical durability makes this not matter. They do a lot of damage if you give them turns to attack though. Usually they just spend it casting 5% regeneration in WA4. YESZ. My kneejerk is to say Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude despite Raquel not fairing as well against Calenos. Probably not very surprising.

Guardian Chimera is a bit of a no-contest as Raquel clearly dominates. The biggest issue usually against him in solos is that the other characters don't necessarily have the offense to beat out his 10% healing due to speed. Raquel though, instantly fixes that and basically mocks him every turn he decides not to use his powerful Material summons. Between Jude and Arnaud, Arnaud gives you more control over the battle while Jude has more offensive input now thanks to allies powering up Joint Struggle. The control is usually more preferable since Illusioning Guardian Chimera and Slowing him down give you big advantages. On the off chance you have Reinforce, cast it on yourself and watch yourself mass build FP with Turn Shift to powerup Raquel's Intrude. Raquel > Arnaud = Yulie > Jude here. As for Enil...um. Scrub bosses are inherently hard to evaluate, but if we consider how to keep allies from dying while killing Enil into the equation, than Jude is usually the best due to his opening move just being a huge "Fuck You" to Enil. Hurray all the clones are gone! You are now dead! Otherwise, Yulie and Arnaud have some tools to handle this one with Isolate/Replace. But really, even if Jude 'wins' it's not a huge victory by any means.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude


SILVER STAR EXPRESS
The soldiers are actually fairly resilient and each one of them kinda has some tricks making each of these kinda like miniature boss fights. For the most part, Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie >= Jude. Raquel's offense is obviously a winner since she kills everything sans Dreadnaughts in one hit. Dreadnaughts also counter any attack with Misery and guess who really isn't effected by it. Hint: It is not mages or Jude. After Raquel, Arnaud has some tricks with movement to get the team into better attacking positions, usually setting up Jude for a Joint Struggle and occassionally OHKOing enemies himself with a Hi-Break. This lets him beat both Jude and Yulie who have very specialized contributions. Yulie's main contribution aside from FP Advantage and Turn Shift is also Material. There are times when it's more efficient to let Yulie just MT kill weakened soldiers from Arnaud and Jude as Raquel's turn or follow up turn is just too slow. She can also use gems, but at this point Arnaud also has a +45 MAG aside from his natural lead so she can't reach anywhere near close to his level of damage. Jude has Phantom Line and Joint Struggle to keep up. Joint Struggle is very specialized since it requires a grouping. But it's definitely powerful enough to keep him on par with Yulie. Jude's big worry though is MP. It may honestly be worthwhile just to give the Elder Record to him so he doesn't run out. There are also random enemies called Bullseye. Everyone laughs at them, but Jude needs to get Short Circuit in order to OHKO, so I guess that makes him the weakest since nobody else needs to go out and purchase additional skills >_>.

Tank Vehicle is a bit of a joke, but Arnaud > Raquel > Jude > Yulie. Yulie again is way too damn frail being nearly borderline OHKO'd. Arnaud auto-wins when he gets a turn AND keeps the team safe. Doesn't get much better than that. Raquel finishes the fight faster than Jude and also keeps herself safer since she can further invest in Blocker along with better evade. Simple. Balgaine, however, is more difficult to rank in that again, everyone has some good contributing factors. Arnaud has the last several Hi-Breaks he can break out for around 7000 damage and brings the team closer so Jude can use Joint Struggle for around 7000 damage as well. Yulie has Quicken and Turn Shift which means if you got Assault Buster with Jude, he can further power that up too for shits and giggles. It deals around 15600 damage so it's fairly nasty. Raquel is Raquel. The main issue for these tricks? You need FP. So FP Advantage shines even more than usual and Arnaud's Reinforce is a nice back up. Baron of Gore's a funky trick but since WA4 buffs are pretty awesome (especially in the right situations), Balgaine can't really stop you from powering right through him. Kneejerk Arnaud > Yulie > Raquel = Jude, although its pretty close here altogether. One could argue Yulie > Arnaud if Arnaud runs out of Hi-Gems, but I've never had this issue before. You have 8 of them and if you give Arnaud a strong MAG set up, he'll likely OHKO the soldiers in the gauntlet. And you shouldn't have to spend more than 1 per battle and sometimes you don't even need to use one since a normal game gives you more freedom to rely on weaker gems as well as Yulie and Raquel turns.  

1. Arnaud
2. Raquel
3. Yulie
4. Jude


ABANDONED VILLAGE
No Yulie, but this area is fairly small. The nastiest enemies are the Moles and their damn Stone Bullets. I've been knicked more than once by them and actually lost *3* times at the Breakpoint due to some bad positioning. Raquel handles most enemies easily and has even some play to her strengths here since she's also capable of resisting Cremation. Jude struggles notably because of lack of consistent OHKOs and things to steal. Arnaud joins Jude near this camp, as his gems and regular blasts are now starting to lose steam. Without FP, the entire team starts finding it harder to get going. Arnaud loses set ups with better gem damage, Raquel loses some of the fuel for her Intrude chains -> Win. Raquel still has a clear win though as she suddenly also gets more crucial turns without Arnaud's sniping and the team missing one overall memeber. Of course, this also leads to more harrowing situations since I can't snipe some nastier enemies, proving once and for all that the balance in WA4 may be closer knit then you think.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Jude


GARRA DE LEON
This is a long dungeon, but the enemies remain largely the same. The regular soldiers are all OHKO bait for Raquel. Arnaud buys Hi-Blasts and manages to join Raquel and actually fares better against one particular enemy: The Militiaman. Hi-Blasts just doesn't trigger Defender, which lets Arnaud take care of them AND additional enemies in the HEX in one fell swoop. He does have some MP issues though if you start spamming it, so he needs the Elder Record. Outside of that, Raquel is also the more durable PC here for once due to cross attack. Cross attack causes all surrounding sodliers to attack with a physical if possible. While Arnaud's evade is godly, it can't beat Raquel having better raw defense AND occassionally countering, splattering everyone inside that HEX from the cross attack in one strike. Kresnik is around for the first portion, but he doesn't perform notably well compared to Arnaud and Raquel. He does sport some shiny OHKOs against the soldiers, but he's also fairly ST oriented. He trades off the MT Material and FP advantage for better physical durability and physical damage. Is it a winning trade? Well considering that I keep Yulie safe enough as is, losing the opportunity to instant win when you start on elemental HEX is a tough loss. Plus, do you really need another PC who's good at physical tanking? Funny that, since usually people complain that they rather take Kresnik over Yulie. He's still however, better than Jude because Jude for the first half of the dungeon cannot OHKO anything. Most of his turns are dead turns, and without Arnaud helping him group allies, Joint Struggle is just too weak and Phantom Line is long past obsolete. Once Yulie finally rejoins, then we can add the Alter Part and Dragon Fossil to his ARM. NOW he has a decent chance of OHKOing most soldiers except for the Militiaman. Yulie has the same advantages that she normally brings, but cross attack is a notable threat to her. Later portions of this dungeon features machines. But they're similar to the regular soldiers anyway, aside from the fact that they hit harder. I'm pretty certain these versions don't even resist any elements, which is of course, terrible.

Half the bosses in this long dungeon are terrible jokes (Tony 3, Augst 1/2) so no comment on them. Of the ones worth nothing, Prototype Gear has Arnaud > Raquel > Yulie > Jude. Prototype Gear's physical if you didn't know has two hits. This makes it such that, not even Raquel can take these for a long time and everyone is consistantly at risk. Arnaud however, can bring the battle down under control and he and Raquel can probably just finish it by themselves from there. Due to this, Raquel is also more durable and has more damage, but can't prevent Prototype Gear's offense from simply escalating to the point that the fight may result in a loss. Why? Because Prototype Gear is durable enough to take a few hits. Yeah, he's nasty. Between Yulie and Jude, both are pretty bad here, but Yulie at least can throw in positive support to make the fight easier. Jude deals damage but Joint Struggle is a no go due to the Line fire ID. So he has to rely on the weaker Short Circuit, which just isn't good enough considering he too gets 2HKO'd easily. Super Soldier has Raquel > Yulie > Arnaud > Jude. Jude is once again, the weakest link as for some reason this time around, he can't OHKO the spellcaster, which just basically ruins what he can do. He's also likely to die from the opening two Blasts. On the other hand, Raquel can (even if you are not looking for it) enter Red Zone from it and proceed to more or less clean house. She doesn't even need Healing at this point due to Dragon Edge. Yulie tanks the Blasts better than Arnaud due to them being the corresponding element + better MDEF and she can provide the better support as a result for once. Arnaud's not bad, but as Super Soldier starts far away, Illusion is of limited use. His best bet is still Slow Down but it just loses so much steam if Raquel gets a Red Zone going, and even when she doesn't, it just doesn't end up doing much here.

Overall...Hm. Raquel >= Arnaud > Yulie > Jude. Kresnik is somewhere between Yulie and Jude I suppose. Raquel and Arnaud are very close with both of them being noticeably important in one boss and can OHKO most randoms. Raquel has to her a slight of advantage of not needing to worry too much about MP and being able to occassionally counter and splatter the soldiers' obnoxious cross attack.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Kresnik
5. Jude


DRAGON FOSSIL MINE
Enemies are notably more difficult than those back in Garra De Leon. They hit harder, have nastier status and more offensive options. Regardless, Raquel shows no mercy in slowing down. Effectively being able to OHKO most enemies here with ease while everyone else does some struggling. Yulie is also worth noting here on offense for once. I was actually wishing for Yulie turns because of Hi-Sanctify. Hi-Sanctify rapes much of the enemies here as many of them are undead. And it costs less MP than Hi-Blasts, and hits hard enough to OHKO. Arnaud has some notable issue. Helter Skelters are the upgraded forms of Spartois, meaning they have accurate physicals here. They also pack Blast so Jude also no-likey. Worse for both, neither of them can OHKO effectively. Arnaud can still KO most of the field with Hi-Blast, but the undead enemies halve everything that isn't non-elemental or fire. He also doesn't have as much liberty in throwing Hi-Gems around since those only spawn at a 50% rate and he's the only producer of them. This results in some MP issues in this field map, although he still manages. Jude is good against one particular monster, but it is worth mentioning. Armordrakes can take 2 Raquel hits. They also hit hard and otherwise can only be OHKO'd by Arnaud via Hi-Blast on opposing elemental HEXes. Jude is actually relatively solid against them if you have Assault Buster. They start with RFX Up unfortunately, but it costs less MP to Dispel -> Assault Buster than trying to set up all the pieces right for Arnaud to OHKO or Raquel to have enough FP. Overall, a fairly balanced area although some PCs are better than others.

1. Raquel
2. Yulie
3. Arnaud
4. Jude


VALLEY OF OBLIVION
Stop by Frontier Halim first and get the second half of the huge power boost: Tiny Flower. I equip this on Raquel for pretty obvious reasons. I buy a Titanium Edge for Arnaud so I can craft a weapon later, but for the most part, I save as much Gella as I can since there's another store very shortly.

The actual dungeon itself features mostly fodder type enemies. Except one (gee this is a recurring trend). Bruisers are notable durable for randoms. They're significantly difficult for Arnaud or Jude to KO. I'm not sure if it's because they have very good MDEF in Arnaud's case, but it does give Raquel a significantly leg up on both of them. There's also more birdies who steal items. These evolved cousins are by far the worst with Misery and Sleep. Raquel is actually hurt by Misery since it stops her from Intrude, move and then using a Break gem. So she's usually unable to KO these. Jude and Arnaud have their physicals so they don't care. Baphomets are basically upgraded Nybasses. So they have absolutely horrible physical defense and just about everything takes them out sans a Yulie physical. Speaking of Yulie, Material starts showing problems in that it has some problems scoring consistent OHKOs against some of the enemies here (Trolls/Bruisers). Trolls are...trolls. They do nothing but move back and forth and counterattack when struck. They also have constant regeneration. Raquel however, openly mocks them by being able to OHKO them with relatively. Arnaud can too with the right gem or Blast. Jude struggles here. There's supposedly a 5th random here (an undead horserider) but I didn't see it this time. To Jude's credit? Item Steal finally pays off and he manages to snag a second Tiny Flower. This creates more options and boss smashing. See below.

As for bosses, Arnaud wins on both. Superior movement abilities to the rescue! Grouping everyone together just once again boosts overall team offense/defense options. :) takes a lot of damage from the Hi-Vortexes found at the beginning of the dungeon and some Joint Struggle from Jude. Raquel's slow speed even when Tiny Flower'd is a hinderance since each delay means :) can spawn more explosive clones. Yulie does get Jude set up with Gather though so hm...Arnaud > Yulie > Jude > Raquel here. Goldrake...well thanks to his starting position + Exploit Weakness, Arnaud can effectively OHKO it with one Hi-Vortex. On the off chance he cannot, you can also Tiny Flower Yulie and she can follow up Vortex to win. I'm not sure who is notably worse here, but my kneejerk is Raquel doesn't fare too well compared to everyone else since once Goldrake flies, her offense just sinks down the gutter. Whereas, Jude and Arnaud still have good options and Yulie still has support. Arnaud > Jude = Yulie > Raquel.

Hard ranking here. Arnaud clearly rules on the bosses here. Meanwhile, Raquel has a fairly easy time with most of the randoms except for one or two but they're largely non-issues. Jude however, finally pays dividends with that extra Tiny Flower steal. I wager the rank works something like: Raquel > Jude = Arnaud > Yulie. Raquel's dominance in the bosses would probably be more notable without the extra Tiny Flower. Likewise, Arnaud wouldn't rule so much face without a second Tiny Flower'd teammate. Still, he does fare overall better on the randoms then Jude, so it probably evens out.

1. Raquel
2t. Arnaud
2t. Jude
4. Yulie


BLUE AMITY BEACH
Another big boost right after Valley of Oblivion. The workshop is open, which means a bunch of forging gets done. Most importantly, I turn several of my normal gems into Hi-Gems, giving Arnaud more cannon weapons in randoms. I further craft a Gold Sun for Yulie, effectively pumping her HP to around Arnaud level. Finally, I forge a Mithral Edge for Arnaud, which is significantly stronger than his best storebought. It's similar to the Aglaia in strength, although worse of course due to no MAG boost. I further get more abilities with Raquel now picking up Exploit Weakness, Jude picking up Assault Buster and Yulie picking up Conserve MP.

Anyway, Arnaud is easily the winner here, after a somewhat disappointing performance earlier. Of all the monsters in this field, Arnaud handles them the best. The most obnoxious enemies by far are Loup-Garous. These things have *massive* amounts of evade and start with EVA Up. This results in Raquel and Jude both struggling to get damage off on them. I've seen Raquel miss an entire 3 hit swing. On the other hand, Arnaud's Hi Blast mocks puny evasion and can easily taken them out. They can also drain MP, but Arnaud would still be the winner because he has gems to fall back on now that the Halim Workshop is available. His game best MAG easily lets him deal the most damage with those compared to anyone else using them. The Skyfish here as their namesake may suggest are flyers. Raquel basically dislikes them with a passion and requires Exploit Weakness to score KOs on them consistently. Jude gets a flyer bonus and Arnaud has no accuracy penalty *and* two weakness to play off of. So yeah, they both handle that fine. Heck, so does Yulie, although she needs Hi-gems for it. Sea Bishops are pretty slow but they hit really hard. Arnaud walls them the best with his evade and Resist Water. Nobody else has a claim to this. Sea Urchins are the last enemy in the area, but they're pretty scrubby. They stop Jude but are basically FP fodder for Raquel. Yulie's loss of consistent KOs with material continues to kick in, usually being just a bit short on some key enemies (Sea Bishops/Loup Garous)

1. Arnaud
2. Raquel
3. Yulie
4. Jude


PORT ROSALIA, TAKE II
Raquel loads up on class levels and even barring the fact that both Arnaud and Jude got turns, it is still far more efficient to just let Raquel waste Jeremy OHKO speedrun style. I'm not sure how well Jude necessarily fares normally, but Raquel > Arnaud > Jude > Yulie is probably my kneejerk for both fights. Yulie has an actual risk of dying before Raquel gets her turn even when Tiny Flower'd. Assuming you want to drag this out longer (Gella Card/Lucky Card) then Arnaud > Raquel > Jude > Yulie since Arnaud will be able to guarantee everyone's safety while still being able to contribute offensively. Jeremy is just so frail that the offense lead that Raquel has if you're not going for pure efficiency doesn't end up mattering. Illusion Jeremy and he kinda fails bad if you wall him with the right characters in front. Mmm...I'll call it a tie here.

1t. Arnaud
1t. Raquel
3. Jude
4. Yulie
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 08:30:40 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 01:10:12 AM »
Man, earlygame Yulie was really that bad? I must've gotten lucky with her starting on Ley points because she ended up smashing randoms for me most of the early game (as soon as FP advantage showed up anyway)

Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 04:27:03 AM »
Early game Yulie being terrible actually isn't that surprising >_>. She's dependent on the starting in elemental HEX, and early on she doesn't even have 25 FP. If the battles not set up that way, her offense is bad since she can't move and attack like Arnaud and Raquel can. Her gems don't hit as hard as Arnaud and Arnaud sometimes just barely OHKOs. And her physical is bad and starting physical durability is even worse. So yeah, this shouldn't be that much of a shocker.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
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Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 01:16:44 AM »
Separated to make Readability easier (since the other post is already a huge glob of text). Played more today, got to the second portion of Illsveil Prison. Thoughts...

FALLEN BRIDGE
No Apeman Vargon encounters, but I do run into a few Melcholms. How nice of the game to do that *after* the last major weapon/armor upgrade. This area is notable for several enemies that have the Energy Buster ability. This resets you current accumulated EXP count on the current level back to 0. So yeah, these enemies need to die quickly. We also have Stingrays, which possess Slow Down and Fiends who are generally nasty. The funny thing is, as nasty as Fiends are, they are not first on the priority ladder for enemies that need to die. That belongs to Flatworms who have the already noted Energy Buster as well as Magic Drain. The best character for this job is usually Arnaud, but Raquel can work as a substitute with Exploit Weakness. It does cut into Intrude turns, unless she doesn't need to move, but for the most part she's decent against them. In fact, everyone sans Jude is usually able to destroy one with proper gems. Stingrays are pretty nasty, with a combination of magic and are flyers. The annoying thing about these is that they don't have a weakness. So Raquel doesn't fare too well (as expected). Giving her an extra hit on her weapon here is really beneficial since the game will make an extra check on hit which maximizes the chances of at least 1 hit connecting. That will usually be enough to kill one when it occurs. On the other hand, Jude manages to struggle against the own enemies he is supposed to be good at. He can't OHKO them either, which is hilariously sad when Arnaud of all people ends up being the PC best equipped to take them out. Even assuming you don't have that Mithral Edge, he still has Hi-Blast as a fallback. Fiends have Agony Effect and Hypno Attacks. They also halve all elements, which puts a dent in Material --> Win strategies and have Magic Blocker like their lesser cousins. Non-surprisingly, Raquel makes up for the two enemies that attempt to spoil her and is the best person against Fiends with Arnaud behind her thanks to the Mithral Edge upgrade, giving him a much more potent physical attack. Jude and Yulie are tied here (...). Arachnids are the last enemy in the area but are usually scrubs. The only person who struggles to kill them in a hit is Jude thanks to them having the hard attribute. Otherwise, the elemental weakness lets everyone else just wipe them out when needed.  

I should note one other thing. I swapped the Tiny Flowers around just so I could give an accurate assessment, and Jude/Yulie really cannot use them as well as Arnaud/Raquel (surprise!). Both Yulie and Jude's issue is that even with the Tiny Flower equipped, they struggle to KO enemies. Yulie's Material even when under detonation, can't OHKO fiends for example and her physical is only better during that single turn to knock them out. Jude just has issues all around here and needs the Detonation boost PLUS Flyer bonus to OHKO Stingrays. And they are the only enemy he can OHKO! So yeah, that further hurts their overall worth especially later down the remaining two dungeons as not being able to use a Tiny Flower well < being able to use one and either bring the battle under control or finish it immediately. Jude is probably the worst user as Yulie in the next dungeon is able to bring her Material into clear OHKO territory with the boost. Jude cannot claim this as Phantom Line still struggles, his physical is no better and the only MT attack he has are gems. Derp.

1. Arnaud
2. Raquel
3. Yulie
4. Jude


ITEM HUNTING
I spend some time hunting items for a Prism Staff and other goodies just so I can have one on hand for Raquel if and when it calls for it. Item hunting kinda reverses the importance of roles as Jude becomes the most important for obvious reasons - he's the only person who can steal! After that, Arnaud maintains his second place position as his ability to kill things remains unchanged and he has additional utility spells such as Slow Down, Isolate, Illusion and Shut Out. Yulie takes third, as although Material is weakened when hunting for items, she still has Turn Shift and Quicken. Raquel, is of course, last as the only thing she can do is eliminate enemies we do not care about. Pretty much what you would expect. How much weight you put on this really depends on whether or not you think an average player will go out and get some additional items before the last stretch of the game.

1. Jude
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Raquel


Dievas Airport
More soldiers! These one are of course the strongest ones in the game. The deadliest of all soldiers here are enemies called Brandishers. They have Blocker and powerful magic with Blast. Raquel's Intrude again loses some value as you cannot Intrude and attack Brandishers without worry since Blocker can trigger. You have to use her skills here instead. Arnaud has his Blasts and gems for the situation so he's usually better as a result. It is however a very minor win for the drifter in chaps as Raquel is vastly superior against everything else. She OHKOs all the other soldiers with ease, and while Arnaud still has his sniping game, Raquel can also take over that role now with a Tiny Flower. In the worst case scenario of Intrude being able to give Raquel only two swings, she still wins as she can snipe twice as many HEXes as he can. Arnaud can claim some additional condolence in the fact that his Hi-Blast will also not trigger Defender from the Vanguards, giving him HEX clearing abilities against them more often. Misery2s are also fairly nasty since they can also drain magic. Yulie ends ups being superior to Arnaud as Arnaud will struggle to OHKO, but Hi-Sanctify won't and costs a measly 6 MP compared to the 24 MP of Hi-Blast. Yulie also gains back some momentum with her Material to clearly put her in front of Jude as it is capable of killing most of the soldiers without trouble - only Combat Sorcerers and Vanguards (under Guard) can take a hit from it. Arnaud usually still wins though as his speed (doubly so now with the Tiny Flower) lets him bring the situation under control faster and he's able to buy her those turns more effectively by taking out something that could otherwise threaten her. Not to mention even with the extra 500 HP, Arnaud is usually still more durable sans magic attacks. Jude flutters in last place struggling to find ways to KO anything at all. Most of his turns are dead turns and the only thing he can usually end up stealing are healing items. Short Circuit struggles to OHKO Regulated Gears, which is just pathetic.


Jude can however claim merits to being the best PC against Gawn. Taking 0 damage + being the fastest = cookies. Raquel is next, followed by Yulie, with Arnaud in last. You never want to use a Jude turn to MT heal since that gets rid of Tiny Flower's boost. As a result, Yulie's Material is the best there is. Arnaud is pretty useless here as he takes a lot of damage from Gawn's counters (nearly 1000!) and his other abilities are useless/ Reinforce's FP is not needed since the counters cancel out Intrude turns. No need for additional damage and debuffers don't work. Jump just gets you killed faster. For the Jane Does, Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude. Typical pecking order. On one hand, you may want them to group together so Raquel can uber smash their faces in faster. On the other hand, they get more powerful attacks and no Full Carrot means no giving Raquel full metre to kill so she usually falls short even if you let them group. Arnaud's Shut Out, therefore becomes more important, since he can segregate only 1 Jane Doe to be kept separate, and you can kill the two others at the same time. He still has his otherwise awesome utility spells and Slow Down + Illusion just totally wrecks their day. Yulie brings some additional offense here with Hi-Sanctify. Notable as she can outdamage Arnaud as the Jane Does can halve all elements. Jude can't find a niche here, being unable to deal good damage or utility. His best action is Mystic - Lucky Card. Many of his turns are just otherwise dead. I do wonder if Silver Launcher would've helped here, but it having a massive MP cost is still prohibitive.

Overall, Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude. Jude's positioning is obvious. And Raquel leads in bosses as well as randoms so hers is also fairly obvious. Arnaud and Yulie are closer together, but Arnaud's better performance against randoms and not being useless against Jane Does saves him from otherwise a tie score with Yulie. His performance against Gawn is bad, but it's a very different fight and Yulie herself isn't exactly stellar there either.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude


ILLSVEIL PT.1
Jude finally gains his 6th Alter Part. Aaaaaaaaaand he can't upgrade it until you kill Farmel. Joy. If you wait till the next save point like me, then he has to wait through the entire Part 1 before getting the upgrade. Jesus WA4, give him a break. Raquel does notably better against one enemy than everyone else: Tactical Gears. These enemies have Auto Guard and will occassionally halve damage you deal to them. However, Raquel's offense at this point is far ahead, she just kinda lulz and kills them anyway. Arnaud can do it with proper leypoint set ups, but that's a lot more effort than hitting attack with Raq. The other enemies do try to be spoilery and they work to some extent. Entomas are the flyers in the dungeon and yes, Raquel has her usual problems here. She banks on relying 1 hit to go through and even then, it's a chore. She can however, laugh at Jude as he still fails to OHKO with flyer bonus. He has to get the 6th Alter Part upgraded before he FINALLY manages to score KOs. God damn, that is terrible. Arnaud maintains the edge against these thanks to his magic and not receiving accuracy penalties. Al Ghebars and Venus' have Blocker, so both Jude and Raquel will need their physical techs to have guaranteed KOs against them. Well, guaranteed for Raquel. Jude still struggles without Joint Struggle or the expensive Silver Launcher. Blocker doesn't stop Arnaud/Yulie with gems or Blasts/Material though. Speaking of Material, Yulie struggles to OHKO these guys, although she's off by maybe 1-2%, so most follow ups will kill (usually gems). Disasters are fairly nasty with MT 2HKO abilities on Jude/Raquel. Both Raquel and Arnaud do fairly well here I think. Arnaud benefits more from that Tiny Flower though, as it puts his Hi-Blasts and occasionally, even his physical, into clear KO territory. So in a straight up comparison, he would be slightly worse as Raq doesn't need it and she would still be in OHKO territorty (albeit, at the cost of worse durability against its big MT moves). Jude...well, you should know by now. Caltikis are the scrub enemies, and no one really cares about them. Myrmidons are fast and damaging but have bad durability overall, so everyone (yes, even Jude) manages to KO them. Mmm..overall, Arnaud is probably slightly better (no weaknesses against anything), but not by a huge margin. The ability to safely OHKO Disaster and Tactical Gears is definitely important. Call it a tie.

As for bosses, Farmel is Farmel and is the weird ass spoiler boss that she is. Arnaud > everyone else because otherwise she either counters with Replace or sits there under Darkness Stance. Whatever. I'm willing to toss her out like Augst. The other boss (the one that matters) is Reclaimer Dragon and well, Arnaud = Raquel > Jude > Yulie. Arnaud can Jump, cast Illusion and basically bait it away from its much more annoying and deadlier Slumber Fog. Slumber Fog is BAD news when it hits, so baiting it into using an attack, powerful as it is, but with a huge accuracy penalty that will likely never hit = awesome. Raquel carries on in offense and doesn't need to hamstring herself or everyone else's position to do it. Arnaud can deal equal damage if he manages to snag the Water HEX and keep Reclaimer on the Fire HEX. But doing so means no baiting, and that may be far more important here. Also more set up, but then again, he has Shut Out to make this strategy possible. Jude can serve as the decoy here as well, but he's worse off since Reclaimer's Rushing Beat hits extremely hard and is ITD. Without Arnaud's evade, Jude is usually in danger of being 2HKO'd himself. On the off chance everyone is in position his damage of course, improves so that's a bonus. Yulie's notably worse here as she can't do the baiting herself and if Arnaud does the baiting, he puts her right in front of Reclaimer too. She doesn't have his evade so there's an actual risk of her getting mauled (although Illusion usually solves it). On offense, she still isn't that good even with Hi-Freeze gems here. So her turns are sometimes dead too, but at least she can Turn Shift it off. So, she's not completely useless here.

1t. Arnaud
1t. Raquel
3. Yulie
4. Jude


ILLSVEIL PT. 2
The first part of this second half has just Jude and Kresnik. Non-surprisingly, the entire dungeon is pretty much catered to Kresnik. From Apoptosis to flying enemies in Entomas as well as the FP Advantage + his FP doubling armor, he clearly owns Jude for this portion. When the team finally gets back together, most of the monsters here are still similar to part 1...with one major change. A monster called Dinosauria exists in the depths of Illsveil part 2. And oh boy. They're like pseudo bosses more or less. Not quite super monster level like Ape Man Vargon, but you don't take these things likely as they hit really hard. And they appear often enough that it matters here. Hilariously enough, the one ability I've sort of ragged on finally makes its way to make me eat my words - these things are vulnerable to POIZN. Hellooooooooo POIZN bite. You have alternatives such as Turasque tusks, but those are fairly rare and you only have 2 from what the game gives you. As a result, you are much more likely to use Poison Bite. It further helps out that Raquel resists fire to wall cremation and her raw physical defense is very important here as these things have a fairly decent hit rate. So her durability is unmatched as well as having the best offensive tool. Arnaud is once again, right behind her with Illusion and Slow Down to bring things down to more controllable levels. At least before you let POIZN finish the job or to have someone kill it for the multiplier. Despite getting Kresnik's skillset, Jude doesn't improve much over the course of part 2. Probably because there are so few randoms and he doesn't do well against Dinosaurias anyway since they have lots of defense and can take multiple Apoptosis.

Bosses! Cyanoides still has Kresnik ruling face. Adrenaline Rush to wall and then spam Lock-On Apoptosis for 10k damage each time. Jude helps out with Gadget Crush and as silly as it sounds, Finest Arts. There's also Silver Launcher but his MP is not going to last through the fight. Cyanoides is only threatening if he manages to get the Water HEX, and most of the time he prefers sitting there and spamming Hydro Pressure anyway. Erython...Arnaud = Raquel > Yulie. Arnaud deals more damage but puts himself at greater risk to do so. Yulie doesn't do anything offensively that out-damages the other two. Lambda is weird since it really depends on what Blue Destiny does. Most of the time though, your highest damage dealer with the most turns is going to be the one that matters most. So Arnaud gets the nod as he can trap Lambda, throw Illusion to screw around with his aim, slow him down and set up very powerful Hi-Blasts with opposing elemental HEXes. Raquel gets the nod next, but is much more dependent on FP than Arnaud. Arnaud uses 1 Jump where as Raquel may need more than 1 Intrude depending on Blue Destiny. Of course, she also has the ability to OHKO Lambda, so that's worth points here too. Yulie is slightly better than Jude in that her support is just overall more valuable (Quicken!). Jude again, flounders around. if you set him up with a Tiny Flower, he can pull the speed run strat, run in front of Lambda and distract him so Raq has free shots, but uh yeah. A more traditional view of the fight see him unable to do much. And even with the speed run strat, he's not the one that's actually ending the fight. So Arnaud = Raquel > Yulie > Jude feels right.

1. Raquel (wins on randoms)
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude


DIVINE WEAPON
The final fight doesn't change much. I do a few things though. First, I give Raquel the Goat Doll and Prism Staff. This gives her Auto-Life and an instant turn when she dies along with 25 FP. In other words, Raquel dying = massive massive pain. Further adding to that, this set up means if I get MT wiped, I can come back and try to salvage it. There is a cost, which is some of Raquel's offensive power as she can't use a Cat's Paw. But this is small price to pay given how Divine Weapon can pull some asshole moves such as Power up -> Arch Smasher. Yulie maintains a hold on the Gold Sun and receives Raquel's Tiny Flower so she can get support out quicker. Arnaud keeps his old accessories but has the Aglaia now, giving him effectively +55 MAG. Jude receives the Cat's Paw and holds on to Ryan's Shield for Auto-Guards to boost his tankishness. It doesn't do much all together, but better than nothing.

First portion of the fight sees Arnaud being critical as he can remove both devices with a Water Hi-Blast. Jude then gets his turns and he can now pull off Apoptosis without being stopped by the Devices for lots of damage. Yulie gives Jude that extra support. 2nd fight, Divine Weapon triggers Raquel's combo by being a little too cheeky with Claymore. Yes, this combo kinda of ruins that move if he wants to spam it. So Raquel gets off a massive 4 turns and takes off at least 75% in one go. Arnaud casts the last Water Hi-Blast to win due to starting positions. 3rd fight, Jude dies to an Arch Smasher thanks to his crappy MDEF. He also fails to OHKO the Silver Devices which I expected him to with Apoptosis. Raquel handles that, but the reduced offense means she 2HKOs. So Jude's attack was not in vain. Afterwards, a bunch of Intrude attacks + a Water Hi-Blasts finish this. Arnaud casts Reinforce to build up 100 FP and Yulie uses Protect somewhere down the line for some turtling.

Overall, this fight see everyone capable of doing something. Raquel is too slow in the first fight, but can easily sub in for Jude, so he's probably still the weakest overall. Not being able to OHKO the Silver Devices of course is also a problem since it forces Raquel to use extra FP to kill them. Between Raquel and Arnaud, Raquel still grabs the win as the Goat Doll/Prism Staff combo is just super useful in this situation where you can wipe from an unlucky series of dodges or AI choices. It gives you a second wind and Raquel still maintains her offense. It's reduced a bit so she's no longer the best damage dealer. But she still retains all her other good points and with FP, does catch up rather easily. Arnaud is still second here as his opening moves as well as damage from leypoint set ups are just too good. Reinforce further helps in the final phase. Yulie has a few side contributions and Protect is a great move at the end when you need the plot KO. Turn Shifting to gather FP is further great in the first two fights and still good in the third fight when you're aiming for the plot KO. Jude muddles around, but manages to pull his weight somewhat. Without Apoptosis he would be deadlast by a mile. With...still last, but the gap is closer at least.

1. Raquel
2. Arnaud
3. Yulie
4. Jude
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 05:19:51 AM by Tide »
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Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 05:52:45 AM »
WRAP UP: THOUGHTS

This playthrough and analysis does shed some light on a few things. First, Yulie is a lot more valuable than what most people would initially think. FP Advantage is just such an awesome skill since it gives Arnaud and Raquel better openings. Turn Shift also guarantees that even when she has dead turns, she can pass them off to someone else. And for a good portion of the game, this guarantees that it will be passed to almost someone more useful. It also helps that there are a few times when she does significantly contribute more than Turn Shift and FP Advantage. Hi Sanctify is great the few times it comes to play. Protect and Quicken are also always good for support. I can probably safely say that Yulie is more important than Jude, although this is only true after a certain point. Jude suffers from the Jeigan syndrome. He starts off well enough, but the further the game progresses, the worse he gets. The Shapeshifter is just so terrible. It's further emphasized when he cannot kill flyers even after a flyer bonus. Yeah, he has Item Steal, but the pay off you get off of it takes some time and he is just otherwise very unimpressive at points. The times when he is good, he requires good positioning which he alone cannot accomplish and relies a lot on Arnaud and Yulie to help him out.

Between Arnaud and Raquel, it's still close but the play and analysis again, provides a new outlook on it. First, Arnaud performs better early on compared to Raquel. Before Yulie gets FP Advantage and before Raquel gets the late game accessories, Arnaud has early game wins and mid-game they share the number 1 spot a fair even number of times. Late game after Frontier Halim, Raquel just picks up to the point where Arnaud cannot really catch up. The times that he does the enemies have to be significantly stacked against her (see Fallen Bridge) and they may be only for field maps and not full dungeons. Arnaud's wins are also not by huge margins. Arnaud does have a few points where he's underperforming, but so does Raquel. I would think these cancel out. It's probably more important to note that Raquel is never third or worse after a certain point outside of Item Hunting. This is probably when I argue she starts picking up steam. What we get is then for all 4 character is this:

Jude: If represented with a graph, would have a high starting point, but it gradually sinks lower and lower until it is below everyone else's performance and then flat lines more or less. Does better at that point in non-combat related tasks.

Yulie: Starts off at a really low point in the graph, then rises upwards until a certain point and flat lines. Horrible early game performance, but settles nicely into her niche after gaining some skills and better accessories.

Arnaud - Performs more or less relatively consistently. Never really gets terrible (although has a few down points). Always great and can serve a variety of purposes as needed. His graph would be more or less a straight line at a high point with a few points where the line dips downwards.

Raquel - Doesn't start off as great, but once she picks up steam, steamrolls more or less everything. One dimensional though so not good at tasks that don't require the offense. Starts off somewhere in the middle but has a quadratic growth line after a certain point so no other character reaches that level of performance.

Actual rankings, I feel Raquel and Arnaud are equivalent in performance. At the very least, their difference in scores shouldn't be more than 1 point. They are just in a completely separate tier than the other two. Yulie should definitely be higher than Jude. Jude is probably the lowest tier character but isn't even terrible terrible then.


And with that, this topic comes to a close. I hope you've enjoyed reading it. It was fun while it lasted. If there is demand, I will do the after game. Although I feel it will probably just emphasize Raquel's performance at that point. Good night.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 06:54:18 AM »
Good stuff, I enjoyed the read~

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 06:28:11 AM »
Ragu analysis now. >:(

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 02:52:29 PM »
Interesting; I think you have a higher opinion of Arnaud and a lower opinion of Yulie than I do.  (But I have this thing against using consumables my first time through a game, so I never did the whole gem thing with Arnaud, and valued Yulie's healing probably more than I should).

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 03:47:59 PM »
NEB: Thanks. I got the idea from you anyway, so I'm glad you enjoyed reading it.

Djinn: Is that a request for the aftergame? I may consider it. Just that the topic is kinda of dead and doesn't seem to be generating much interest overall.

MC: Yeah, I can definitely see that. If you are stingy on consumable, it will end up hurting Arnaud a lot more offense since he really is the best user of gems thanks to Jump and Act. I should note though, both Yulie and Raquel are likely to feel the hit as well. In Yulie's case, it hurts her offense even more than it already does and leaves her largely with Material as offense (and her physical. But...>_>). Raquel's is more specialized in that she would have tougher times against flyers and soft attribute enemies who resist physical damage by a whopping 90%. You can likely still Intrude and hope for that 1 hit to pass (or with soft enemies, maybe a crit) but she runs a higher chance of being unable to kill them, which *should* boost up Arnaud's worth IMO (he's good against both enemy types). But losing OHKOs occassionally on otherwise neutral enemies has a much larger impact overall.

I used a Healing very few times over the course of this playthrough. Yulie's healing only became relevant towards the end when she finally learnt Healing Plus. Then she is without the doubt the best healer in the game. Before hand, outside of durability issues, I still didn't use her turns for healing either because she wasn't fast enough or I could end most battles before Healing became an issue. The person who often needed to be Revived most was Yulie herself >_> (although even this count was low. Like 3 times over the course of the game?). Mm...if you place Yulie's factor of 'I win' when she starts on an elemental HEX for the first 3/4 of the game as more valuable then she'll likely gain a few ranks above Arnaud especially if you restrict the usage of consumables overall.
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 04:11:29 PM »
I'm definitely interested, just bad at commenting overall. Would love to see Ragu-type analysis.

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 08:58:18 PM »
Mm...if you place Yulie's factor of 'I win' when she starts on an elemental HEX for the first 3/4 of the game as more valuable

Yeah, I certainly do take that into account when looking at her.  And sometimes when she doesn't start on an elemental hex, her first turn is moving to an elemental hex, and if the battle isn't over/she ins't dead by her second turn, summon smash.

I dunno; if I were told I had to replace one of Arnaud or Raquael with another copy of Jude, I'd definitely replace Arnaud.  If I were told I had to replace one of Arnaud or Yulie with another copy of Jude...that's a tough call.  Yulie's probably better at fast fights like randoms; Arnaud's probably better against bosses.

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 11:30:27 PM »
Quote
Yeah, I certainly do take that into account when looking at her.  And sometimes when she doesn't start on an elemental hex, her first turn is moving to an elemental hex, and if the battle isn't over/she ins't dead by her second turn, summon smash.

Oh certainly, I agree there. The main issue I have is mostly addressed - I find that getting Yulie that extra turn without her dying or the battle ending to be pretty slim. Considering that Raquel's turn is usually right after her and Arnaud is 1.26x faster than she is, if she doesn't start on an elemental HEX, most of the time, Raquel can just Intrude away and wipe the other enemies out. Other times, Arnaud would've gotten two turns before hand and he can Jump and attack, meaning he clears 2 HEXes. To me, Yulie needs to start on an elemental HEX relatively early in the turn order to boot for it to matter. Otherwise, her moving and then holding 25 FP for her to Material the map is just too slow. There are of course, those fights where even if it was better, she has to live through until her next turn and well, Arnaud and Raquel are usually the best at keeping her alive then. So they still get bonus points there for me. I do consider it (you'll notice her typically beating Jude even before Jude kinda crashes), but yeah, I don't consider it in as great value.

Quote
I dunno; if I were told I had to replace one of Arnaud or Raquael with another copy of Jude, I'd definitely replace Arnaud.  If I were told I had to replace one of Arnaud or Yulie with another copy of Jude...that's a tough call.  Yulie's probably better at fast fights like randoms; Arnaud's probably better against bosses.

Hmm, maybe it's a playstyle thing. I would replace Arnaud/Raquel depending on the situation. There are some fights where Arnaud's Jump and occassionally combined with Yulie is just too powerful and awesome that I think I would be willing to give up Raquel (Incubator). Flip side of this is also true. There are some fights where I rather replace Arnaud (see Gawn). In the second case, I would typically replace Yulie more often. Although like all things in WA4, would depend on the situation. The thing with Arnaud in randoms is, while he may not be able to outright win it for you, he can eliminate dangerous targets that could cause very bad things to happen (Hi Jack-O-Laturns). That to me is worth just as much as a full wipe of enemies on screen. If the enemies left are a whole bunch of Pordages who can't directly damage you, I would generally not reward Material as much there (if any, at all).
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 08:41:34 AM »
299 Views means someone is reading.  You have played WA4 enough that no one really feels overly much need to argue otherwise with you, the cast is smaller and the balance issues are a bit more clear cut honestly.  I wouldn't hold CT topic attention against this one.
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 02:36:29 PM »
299 Views means someone is reading.  You have played WA4 enough that no one really feels overly much need to argue otherwise with you, the cast is smaller and the balance issues are a bit more clear cut honestly.  I wouldn't hold CT topic attention against this one.

It's also probably relevant that you don't get a party choice in WA4.  And there are fewer cases of complete nonlinearity like "oh, if I take two otherwise useless characters, they can dual-tech and be awesome."

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 03:38:00 PM »
I fear arguing with the Tide. He is scawy.
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 09:32:08 PM »
I'm kind of wondering why he is using Apoptosis on bosses instead of Assault Buster.

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2011, 04:08:58 PM »
Oh, I almost never used consumables either. That may be way I also think Raq is the best.
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2011, 05:32:20 PM »
I think Tide should post moar =D
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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2011, 09:01:17 PM »
For the record, I am doing the after game it seems like since a few people have expressed interest. I'm just getting ready for that and basically grindan for some equipment.

Grefter/MC: *nods*. Well I was expecting that it wouldn't generate as much attention. Just that for a good long while there were basically four posts, 3 of which were mine so it just seemed like there really wasn't much discussion. Viewcount was also lower in my initial checks. Not making a big deal out of it, but it's good to know people have been following along.

Ciato: My WA4-fu is no match for your FE10-fu. I am not scawy at all :(

Rob: If you're referring to Dinosaurias, my only excuse is that I had a brainfart. I thought their evade was actually really high, which would make AB suitably weak, but it turns out their evade is merely average. Defense could screw around with this since they have good DEF and RES values (not to mention RFX). But they're certainly durable enough for you to set up ABs. Hm...that may push him about to the same worth as Arnaud against them. Although I'll need actual field data. If you're referring to Hauser, Apoptosis is better in the first fight because you don't need to set it up in order to win quickly (2 shots of Apoptosis + 1 Hi Blast is enough) where as in the third fight, Apoptosis' range is better than Assault Buster's. More range is good so I can knock out the Silver Devices earlier. I can Assault Buster later I guess, but it then requires setting up on another HEX and I don't really know if that's worth it. You need a plot KO later, so if you set up, you have to move everyone back again (Gather works too) and then Dispel it so Hauser can't get the benefits of the boosts. The game also gives you a full metre which just screams INTRUDE ME PLEASE. Lambda's not really worth setting it up on since it typically ends quick. Plus Blue Destiny can block it. The other fight looking on it that may be improved with Assault Buster are Jane Does. They're slow enough that it's possible to set up Quicken/Hyper and have Jude boost Assault Buster with Rapid Attacks for OHKOs. This would improve him, probably to at least a tie with Yulie. His performance in randoms is still lacking.

I wouldn't use Assault Buster on randoms since it is hilariously, too slow to set up, costs more MP and doesn't have line fire. Although this doesn't seem to be the point you want to address, thought I would bring it up to anyone else wondering why I dont' use it on randoms know why.

On consumables:
I didn't really start using gems a lot until around the third playthrough or so when I realized that they were basically sitting in the inventory and not doing much. It was also around this time I was doing some testing with Leypoints and found the quirks for them. Admittedly, this makes gems a lot more attractive to use as an offensive option. It just turns out Arnaud is really good with them since Jump & Act let's him set it up so he can almost always do 2x the damage with them (plus he has game best MAG). You should be willing to use gems because they are otherwise not doing anything worthwhile. You can sell them, but they give out pretty pitiable amounts of Gella. So you're almost always better off just spending it on offense. This doesn't necessary make Arnaud better than Raquel (again, I wager their performance is probably equivalent for the main game), but it does add a new dimension to his role and keeps his offense running better for a longer period.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2011, 11:00:44 PM »
Rob: If you're referring to Dinosaurias, my only excuse is that I had a brainfart. I thought their evade was actually really high, which would make AB suitably weak, but it turns out their evade is merely average. Defense could screw around with this since they have good DEF and RES values (not to mention RFX). But they're certainly durable enough for you to set up ABs. Hm...that may push him about to the same worth as Arnaud against them. Although I'll need actual field data. If you're referring to Hauser, Apoptosis is better in the first fight because you don't need to set it up in order to win quickly (2 shots of Apoptosis + 1 Hi Blast is enough) where as in the third fight, Apoptosis' range is better than Assault Buster's. More range is good so I can knock out the Silver Devices earlier. I can Assault Buster later I guess, but it then requires setting up on another HEX and I don't really know if that's worth it. You need a plot KO later, so if you set up, you have to move everyone back again (Gather works too) and then Dispel it so Hauser can't get the benefits of the boosts. The game also gives you a full metre which just screams INTRUDE ME PLEASE. Lambda's not really worth setting it up on since it typically ends quick. Plus Blue Destiny can block it. The other fight looking on it that may be improved with Assault Buster are Jane Does. They're slow enough that it's possible to set up Quicken/Hyper and have Jude boost Assault Buster with Rapid Attacks for OHKOs. This would improve him, probably to at least a tie with Yulie. His performance in randoms is still lacking.

I wouldn't use Assault Buster on randoms since it is hilariously, too slow to set up, costs more MP and doesn't have line fire. Although this doesn't seem to be the point you want to address, thought I would bring it up to anyone else wondering why I dont' use it on randoms know why.

Well, even before that. I make it a point to spend levels to get it early. Like that dungeon after Halim, usually. Then you use it to fucking wreck shop.

Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 07:49:42 AM »
So yes, I spent the last few days finding items. I have all the PCs extra equips and namely, their DL equips. This what I will probably be using for most of these fights. Sapphire Drake/Black Box/Micht may demand heavier duty. Ragu obviously does without saying. So just as a refresher, this means Jude has the Ignia Guard, Arnaud has the Aglaia and the Duke Garb, Yulie has the Angel's Hoop and the Sapphire Ring, Raquel has the Princess Saber and the Lone Wolf. And the first place we are off to - the arena. I need to get the 7th Alter Part for Jude anyway.

Screams of the Sacrificed:
There's a total of 30 fights. A few of these are actual solo battles. A few of these are gimmick battles that basically rely on one character to do the work. For example, there's a fight that is staged on Item Steal. You have to Steal the item and use it in order to win. I'll be skipping all of these for evaluation because the winner is going to be obvious.


Two powers clash - One Survives: Raquel > everyone else. It didn't matter that Jude got the Tiny Flower/Full Carrot combo to come off. This enemy's magic is strong enough that it puts nearly everyone in critical, except Yulie. Of course, Raquel enters Red Zone and well...gg.

Seeds of Sickness infect the earth: The enemies here fly and they have auto-guard. So they are guaranteed to pretty much stick around and try to get damage on you. Luckily, Arnaud still OHKOs with Hi-Vortex or Wind Hi-Blasts. So he easily wins. Despite twinking for extra hits, Raquel obviously has some hit issues. She can use gems to deal damage, but she's no longer in the lead here. Yulie's Material is also solid, but doesn't equate to a win when it happens. Jude's uh...kinda not really well off since his damage here is still pretty bad. Arnaud > Yulie > Raquel > Jude probably sounds right.

Poison Gas engulfs the battlefield: One giant enemy. I actually set up Assault Buster but this thing has way too much defense for it to matter. As a result, the winner was pretty obvious. Poison does cut into Intrude somewhat, but Raquel is doing 20-25k each hit so even if you take it slow and heal up, she still wins here. Raquel > everyone else.

Fear's New Name: Agony Effect: Insane fight number 1. Also probably the hardest fight in the area by far. This fight is hard. Hard hard hard hard. It makes some of the super bosses tame. There's 12 of them and when they die, they have an extremely powerful magic counter. You can't kill 4 of them at once because 4 high powered Agony Effects thrown at your team = instant gg. Oh, and they have powerful physicals AND focus fire. So you can get attacked up to 12 times in one turn if your positioning sucks. Now given what I just wrote, it's no surprise you NEED Arnaud for this fight. Isolate is the only way to get good positions and thinning and if you don't have that...uh...I really really doubt this fight is doable. Not only that, but Shut Out lets you segregate enemies into specific formations as needed. Since Arnaud's offense is unneeded here, I swap the Duke Garb back to the Wizard Garb for +10 Evade. Jude once again, is the decoy of kings. He sits in a HEX and defends for dear life, with Shield Guard reducing most of his damage down to 0. With that keeping the enemies occupied, all Arnaud needs to find is an opening to keep himself relatively safe, throw in Isolates and then have Raquel take care of it. Unfortunately, the counter is strong enough to OHKO Raquel. Jude to the rescue again! Since he's getting attacked so many times, Jude ends up often countering at least once before Arnaud's next turn, generating a massive amounts of FP (remember, he has Heat Up now too) so Arnaud can chain multiple Jumps to heal and Revive. It took a few tries and a lucky Agony Effect Redirect to prevent myself form being splattered (it hit a defending Jude who had full health) but yeah, I got it to work. You'll notice I didn't mention Yulie. This is because Yulie spent around 90% of the fight dead. Arnaud > Jude > Raquel > Yulie.

Mechanized Terror: Pretty much a scrub fight. Which of course means Raquel > everyone else here. Tiny Flower'd Raquel is a thing.

Unstoppable Magic: Mage Fox has some nasty spells, but the fight is often over before it goes anywhere. Raquel > Arnaud = Yulie > Jude. Jude aside from being frail can't amount much of an offense before Raquel gets around and smashes Mage Fox in the face. Arnaud and Yulie are around equal for controlling the fight and speeding it up.

Twisted martial artist of the Abyss: Um...the good news is, this thing is all physical so, Illusion = awesome. The bad news is, this thing hits really fucking hard. Yulie is once again, near useless since she can't remain alive even with Illusion in effect. Jude has some issues damaging it, but can do some tanking, although I wouldn't rely on it thanks to ITD. Between Arnaud and Raquel, Arnaud is more important because Illusion lets him and Raquel have a much safer chance of dodging those powerful counters. Raquel's offense is good, but getting killed after attacking thanks to the counter doesn't help. Arnaud can use non-elemental Hi-Blasts here for chipping even if it's not that great. Arnaud > Raquel > Jude > Yulie.

Rise of the armored fighter: Haha. This thing also packs insane physical damage. The difference? It uses Hyper to do it. Also, he can hit any HEX. Once again, Arnaud is pretty important with Dispel, Illusion and Slow Down to help stop the rampage. Oh he has Hyper too so Raquel can near OHKO it. Yulie's Protect as a result is almost useless, but Quicken serves to help speed Arnaud up so you can bring the fight down to a more reasonable pace. Jude's offense here is still terrible. However, he works as a second decoy and can also help to keep Raquel safe if Defender does kick in. So while his contribution is less, he's not useless here. At worst, he can roadblock Doomsday from hitting the mages with his corpse. Mm...is Raquel more important than Arnaud? Tough call. Arnaud would have some issues on damage as Doomsday is resistant to all elements, but not even Raquel can take a Hyper'd physical from it. So you really do want Illusion sticking around. And having Slow Down of course so he's not being a OHKOing machine off 250% average speed. Arnaud > Raquel > Yulie > Jude

Live through the Merciless brawl: Um...insane fight number 2 here with the entire party at level 55ish. First problem? They hit really fucking hard. Not even Raquel can take many hits here. Second problem? They have this really annoying passive ability called Backlash. It randomly kicks in when they block an attack and the damage that attack would've dealt gets reflected to the entire HEX. As a result, there's no way to have good offense since you can blow an entire Intrude chain and deal 0 damage if backlash kicks in. This fight though is more of an endurance test. They don't always block and when they don't, your attack still goes through. Of course for all the times when they do block, you still want to do some damage. So...hello POIZN Bite. I also need someway to control the damage. Which means of course, Arnaud is great here. The problem? The ST thing seriously bites. Arnaud's not fast enough to toss in 3 Illusions before things go out of control. This as a result makes Jude super important. He can actually stand in the middle HEX and Defend to complete draw away nearly all attention while taking negligible damage unless Bad News wants to use his ITD attack. So for much of this fight his role was decoy. Arnaud then does the work by using Extend to keep debuffers as well as the team's own buffers alive, throwing Illusion and Slow Down in the early parts. Yulie's Quicken is notably important to keep the pace. But Illusion is really the winner here. Arnaud never got hit after Illusion was thrown, and Raquel was hardly hit after. Once things sorta calm down, Raquel can come in, attack and get revived if needed. Offhand, sort of hard to put down who is more important here. I really don't want to imagine doing this without Arnaud because jesus is the physical offense insane here that you really want Illusion. On the other hand, without Raquel's offense this fight takes a really long time to win. It's essentially turtling until POIZN kicks in while Jude defends for dear life otherwise. Yulie's good for Quicken and MT healing and that may be it, but it's important enough. Mmm...Arnaud > Yulie > Raquel = Jude probably. Jude can probably tie with Raquel here thanks to being an awesome decoy even if he can't win the fight as efficiently.


Today is a good day to die: Insane fight number 3. So first thing you should know. 7th Moon is a MT OHKO without Protect. So yeah, I think Yulie wins because you are not winning it at this level without her. After Yulie is probably Arnaud because Angolmolis has QUICKEN. You really do not want or need him to be even faster. Arnaud has Slow Down and Dispel, both of which work. Plus he speeds up the fight immensely with Hyper. Raquel boots the offense into the equation. Jude has nothing here, but works as a back up healer since Yulie will be busy with Protect and her own Quickens. So he's still not terrible by any means. Yulie > Arnaud > Raquel > Jude

Overall wins:
Jude: 0
Arnaud: 5
Yulie: 1
Raquel: 4

Doing this with higher levels probably makes more of the wins to Raquel because the need to control the fight is much less important than. As is, Arnaud inches out (or ties if you consider the Agony Effect battle to be a gimmick) thanks to having a bit more utility. Raquel's offense is still unmatched, and Yulie is important in the last fight of the arena. Jude has his moments but doesn't lead anywhere. I wager if you could end fights even quicker, than Raquel's worth would shoot up much higher.

Next time: Super bosses.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 05:19:30 AM »
Super bosses - The Journey:
Actual Write up later, tentative rankings/reasonings for now.

Omen Fish: The first of the evil gauntlet of doom is Omen Fish. This is non-surprisingly, a Raquel win. Not only does she win offense, but on the off chance you get a MT wipe from ID, Raquel can singlehandedly try and bring the team back up thanks to Goat Doll. Yes, she is a juggernaut here. Hydro Pressure is somewhat scary, but if Raquel gets a turn or two, it's usually not enough to matter. The only time you have to be worried is if he's on a Water/Fire HEX for the boost. Arnaud is normally better than Yulie, but she brings to the table something he can't do to tie the score. Again, if you get unlucky and meet a near wipe to ID, Yulie can actually have a chance at saving you since Crisis Speed will go off and you'll get massive number of turns with Quicken to do all the buffing you need before revival. The best Arnaud can do is Revive Fruit for 75-80% MHP. Otherwise, Arnaud typically wins due to better offense than Yulie (carries some risk) and his support skillset is still rocking here. Jude can't do much and is clearly dead last. Raquel > Arnaud = Yulie > Jude

Malak Blaze Toad: Also obvious. So Arnaud and Yulie have this problem of bad starting position. Raquel doesn't, resists fire and is otherwise durable and packs the best offensive output. She also doesn't care much about Confusion actually hitting (would miss Intrude turns though) so she's easily the best Malak slayer. Both Arnaud and Yulie have the issue of being OHKO'd, but Arnaud has slightly better support. Unique enough to this battle, he can make Confusion (if you're not protected) less troublesome by casting Shut Out on yourself. Doing so prevents your allies from walking into range to slaughter you and further prevents you from moving around when you don't want to. Otherwise, he and Yulie both have good enough support to help out, although Arnaud brings an extra bonus in that he can deal the killing blow at 40000 HP or so thanks to Exploit Weakness with a Water Hi-Blast. Jude struggles to break defense, needs support for Assault Buster and is otherwise best still as a decoy. That's something, but clearly worse than everyone else. Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude

Biber Zher: What flies, is a super boss, but still manages to get 2HKO'd? Biber Zher. Arnaud mocks this battle something fierce, since if there's an Earth HEX on the field, Biber Zher never really gets going. Sure, he has status, but you can block Sleep/Death with the Fish Badge on at least one PC. And that just makes Biber Zher fail. Arnaud then has Illusion to spoil Biber Zher's only other offense. That...is impressive and makes him first easily. Jude is also pretty cool here thanks to Biber Zher's limited direct offense. He's very tanky here, and the speed lets him help out with the status the quickest if it becomes an issue. Biber Zher also has a notable vulnerability to HP-1 too. So, yeah, Jude also has actual offense! Raquel gets spoiled and the tricks run into the status (Venomous Gas spoils Red Zone/Goat Doll something fierce). Looking at it again, she's probably last here, since outside of good defense, she struggles to do much else. Yulie is very frail (whoo all physical boss), but can also HP-1 it for giggles, and that may honestly be enough. Arnaud > Jude > Yulie > Raquel

Charybidis: This battle is all about how quickly you can win. Charybidis' main reward is the ton of money he holds. The fight itself is never really threatening since he needs 2 turns to unload the damage and the overkill is meaningless. Naturally, Raquel with Tiny Flower/Goat Doll/Cat's Paw here demolishes the fight in record time. He even starts in the centre too, so Raq is pretty much ensured the FP. After that, nobody else is really impressive, but Arnaud can help Raquel speed up the fight with Hyper and Slow Down. Yulie has Quicken. Jude has nothing. So pretty simple pecking order of Raquel > Arnaud > Yulie > Jude.

Pr0n Mags: Hay guize, Jude wins one. Yes, Jude gets a fight where he *finally* shines. The pr0n mags are pretty susceptible to HP-1 (75% chance). So guess what? Mystic --> Unholy Berry pretty much wears the lot of them down, making this fight pathetic. As a further bonus, even if no one else is alive, Jude can still finish the job somewhat but thinning out ranks with Circular Volley. Clearlyt his best performance in a while. Surprisingly, nobody else other than Jude really catches up. Raquel comes the closest as she also has pseudo MT here, which is worthwhile as a clean up after Jude if you set her up for it. She also has OHKO level damage if standing on the Fire HEX and the books are stupid enough to fly into range. Pass that, each of these magazines have at least 45000 HP, which means you often need 3 regular strikes and for once, Intrude is just somehow too slow here. Yulie beats Arnaud because while both need the Fire HEX to do awesome things (MT fire attack vs OHKO to single HEX), Yulie has Replace. No need to screw around with luck here and Isolate. Just Replace and wait for the next turn. It also helps Raquel and Arnaud get into position too so yeah. Arnaud has OHKO level damage on the Fire HEX, but doesn't thin them out fast enough and the lack of MT sinks him in this one. Jude > Raquel > Yulie > Arnaud

Wyvern: Meet Wyvern. He has 2 things that pretty much guarantee you want Arnaud: Hyper and Quicken. Unless you have Arnaud, once he does that, it's pretty much over. With Arnaud, you have some choices between Illusion/Slow Down to counter those two spells, or just flat out Dispel it. Oh, this isn't getting to how Wyvern's only any HEX target attack is Cremation and Arnaud can easily wall it with Frey/Chick Badge/standing on Fire HEX. Yeah, something tells me he wins this one even if his damage is nowhere near as impressive. Raquel and Yulie are around the same. Yulie tends to have better durability at the start due to her godly MDEF. And if you keep away, she will continue to be an actual durable healer here which keeps the other two alive. Of course, if Wyvern gets close, this doesn't apply. In fact, it goes 180 and she pretty much becomes a liability since she fails to dodge even after Illusion. Lack of offense doesn't help. All Raquel has here is offense and if Wyvern enters flying mode, her turns are pretty much DOA. There's of course no denying, she's still your most damaging PC. One Intrude chain when he's on land pretty much wins head and miles above everyone else. It is however a notable blip in her game, one which Arnaud doesn't have issues with at the very least. Jude tries to help, but his offense is somewhat shoddy and that atrocious MDEF isn't helping out at a range. Up close, he still can't do much and around all he can try is help keep Yulie safe with Defender if Wyvern runs too close. Arnaud > Yulie = Raquel > Jude

Buckbaird: No surprises here. Buckbaird lives and dies by line fire attacks. If you give him the chance, he will use Hyperion Blaster and pretty much rip anyone to shreds. The only PC who can guarantee your safety AND instantly gg this? Arnaud. Initiative set up, wait for turn, Jump, cast Shut Out. Yeah. Even if it takes Arnaud much longer to win, he's never actually threatened. And he keeps everyone alive this way too. Between Raquel and Yulie, Raq comes out ahead due to damage and Goat Doll tricks. If you do get caught by Hyperion Blaster and die, Goat Doll/Prism Staff here can bring you back and you can revive/heal others to try and climb back out of hole. Or even just use two turns for massive offense. Oh speaking of, Buckbaird stands beside a Water HEX, which if Raquel gets a hold of, means she's pumping out 42000 damage a turn. Buckbaird can ruin this with COUNTER REPLACE, but once again, Arnaud to the rescue. Yulie has her typical tricks + FP Advantage being super important here, granting her the win easily over Jude. Jude can uh...Provoke it and make it use physicals. That's better than line fire Hyperion Blaster. Unfortunately, Funny Pose is ST and requires the target directly in front. Derp. Arnaud > Raquel > Yulie > Jude

Sapphire Drake: The first of the real deals. Sapphire Drake packs status, defense and offense. No tricks this time, just a straightforward but difficult slugfest. Raquel likes this. And with little doubt, she is pretty much the best PC here. No flight mode to screw with her HIT, no initiative 95% PCHP damage or anything of that sort. Arnaud takes second since he still has Hyper. If nothing else, Arnaud can help make this faster by helping Raquel out. Oh and although Sapphire Drake has Misery, Arnaud has Illusion/Reinforce. So if you give Raquel a Heart Leaf, she can continue to build massive amounts of FP for Intrude without worry. Better support skill set here. There is one trick worth mentioning that may bring Yulie up here. It hinges upon Replace swapping positions with Sapphire Drake. One of his most powerful attacks is a buffed up Stone Bullet. It OHKOs Jude/Raquel and brings Arnaud down to 20%. With Replace? No one cares anymore except maybe Jude. Much much more managable. She doesn't win this though as Arnaud *can* use Isolate to accomplish the same goal, although of course, his is up to chance a lot more. Otherwise, Quicken and Protect along with the before mentioned trick push Yulie easily above Jude. Jude doesn't have much to do, but his speed helps out by allowing him to heal Misery'd HEXes. And since so many of his turns are likely dead turns, this actually gives him a reasonable degree of use on his turns. Raquel > Arnaud >= Yulie > Jude

Michlantecuhtli: Oh yay! Another gimmick battle. This time? Auto Guard and status. In particular, Raquel is notably worse here since she *must* use a Fish Badge. Otherwise, Petrify spoils Intrude and Micht is a little too durable to die before Petrify kicks in. No one really cares about Disease either other than Raquel since it spoils the Goat Doll tricks she can otherwise use. Arnaud does end up leading the pack as a result as that Petrify physical is actually scary. With Shutout, the only thing you have to worry about are Cremation and Hydro Pressure, the latter which Arnaud resists. So if you Shut Out, he's pretty limited in what to hurt you with. Yulie helps out with Protect. This then leads to Arnaud and Yulie being pretty much immune as long as the buffs/debuffs are up and they can slowly chip away. Yes, Yulie has offense here thanks to Micht being undead. Hello, Hi-Sanctify! Of course, Auto Guard means you'll likely see a lot of counters, but since Yulie can Absorb and Arnaud can keep Micht away, this fight is pretty much harmless with just those two. Raquel does speed it up, but has issues since Auto-Guard just makes it so much harder to bring Micht down and he's just more than happy to lob spells and status, which can easily ruin her day. Arnaud/Yulie get further brownie points for being able to help her out with Hyper/Illusion/Quicken/Protect, which keeps them ahead. Jude meanwhile is dead last here and this time notable so, since the only status he can help cure is Stone and it requires Raquel to not take an Intrude turn. Arnaud > Yulie > Raquel > Jude

Black Box: Aside from the frustration of finding all 177 chests in WA4, Black Box has to be one of the hardest to plan for as well. The big issue in Black Box's fight is that the HEX grid is randomized. What this means is that the most valuable person/most damaging person may not necessarily be the same all the time. There are 4 main scenarios: The Fire HEX is adjacent to Black Box, the Fire HEX is not adjacent to Black Box, Black Box is on the Fire HEX, and finally, there is no Fire HEX.

Scenario 1 - Raquel carries the best damage (whee Fire Dragon Edge)
Scenario 2 - Arnaud carries the best damage
Scenario 3 - Arnaud wants Yulie to help him so he can get the best damage. Otherwise, Raquel leads
Scenario 4 - Arnaud has the best damage, but is dependent on the Water HEX's positioning.

Does this make Arnaud the forerunner as the MVP? Yes and no. Raquel has a clear win in scenario 1 for certain. However, in the other scenarios, if Raquel can Intrude for even one turn, she can tie or beat Arnaud for damage. It doesn't help Arnaud that in scenario 3, he wants Yulie to lend a hand. Yet, Arnaud has other things than offense as a fallback. Most notably, Slow Down/Illusion are pretty important. Black Box likes casting Hyper, and since Magic Hand is ITD, you pretty much have to evade it as 5400 damage is enough to OHKO anyone. Slow Down of course, keeps his offense in check. Raquel is further hurt by Agony Effect counters which puts a cramp on Intrude chains since she has to heal. Oh and Black Box also has some evasion. It's not Ragu's godly evasion, but Raq is missing some hits occassionally from her swings, which means Dragon Edge isn't 100% reliable here either. Eh, call it a tie. Maybe with Arnaud leading out on top here. Yulie has Protect, which keeps the Agony Effect attacks in general more managable. And of course, Quicken. Nevermind her offense is in the gutter, that alone is enough here to beat Jude since she can keep your best two cannons alive. Jude is last, but again, not totally useless. The issue with Jude is that he also doesn't like Agony Effect counters. And unlike Raquel, he can't spend an extra turn healing himself after taking a hit that rips off 75+% of his HP. Also, Black Box's defense is high and his speed equally so, meaning Jude's best damage is often Short Circuiting for a piddly 6000 damage or so. At least he's quick though, so it adds up. Arnaud >= Raquel > Yulie > Jude

RAGU O' RAGLA (No Sheriff Stars):
And so this is it. The last analysis. The big one. The spaghetti death monster. Who wins here really is dependent on one question: Do you care about "legit" wins, or is a win a win to you.

If you only need to win, Arnaud beats everyone else. This stems from a couple of things, but largely due to Isolate. The only other way to attempt to move other people into HEXes quickly is with this spell and speed is the key in this fight for any strategy. It further helps Arnaud here that he has the best offense out of everyone once the bug is set up. After Arnaud, it's a little more foggy, because no one else has anything similar to Isolate. Jude however, would be second here as he can use an initiative set up to get a turn quickly and run to either the HEX on the far left or the centre HEX. The centre HEX in particular is very important because if Ragu holds this HEX, you have to use Isolate otherwise the Ragu bug won't trigger. So, Jude's ability to get enough speed to capture one of those vital HEXes without need Arnaud to Isolate him is definitely worth something. Jude also has ranged offense, even if it's not good or reliable in this scenario - he's either using Finest Arts (twinked for it) or Silver Launcher. He can survive an Agony Effect counter here, so he probably has the second best offense as well. Between Yulie and Raquel, Yulie has ranged offense, but one is suicidal (Sacrifice) and the other is extremely slow (Material). Still better than Raquel who has no ranged offense whatsoever. On the other hand, Raquel set up with her best equipment (and no Red Zone loop set up) is still likely to get her turn before Yulie because if Ragu attacks her and Arnaud, she's likely to enter into Red Zone and can waltz into the upper left corner HEX/centre HEX. Then with Jude's turn, you capture the remaining HEX and pretty much have the trap up and ready. Call it a tie. Arnaud > Jude > Yulie = Raquel

On the other hand, if you are hardcore and want to win legit, then Raquel is easily the winner. Two reasons: 1) She can survive OTD OPB, which means you always have a second wind to attempt to win it. 2) She has easily party best offense and keeps the party safe with Red Zone. I can't stress point number two enough. You never want Ragu to take a free turn because he can wipe you out anytime he wants with OTD. And without Red Zone repeatedly triggering so you can get more Raquel turns/healing/dealing damage there's a pretty good chance you're going to wipe before getting anywhere. After Raquel, everyone else has something unique, so the order isn't clear here either. Arnaud brings debuffs to the table. In fact, he is the only person who can debuff. The issue is, Ragu is so fast, 20 actions tend to pass stupidly quick. More importantly though, Arnaud has Reinforce and Hyper. Both are good skills to carry to help buff Raquel. More importantly, he has Extend to keep buffers/debuffers alive, which is very valuable when turns go super quickly. His durability here is sadly meaningless because lolOTD. Jude can Mystic Great Apples which adds every stat boost in the book and then some, including ones that you normally don't have access to (Hit UP, Evade UP for example). Very useful since needing Yulie to painstakingly cast each buff one by one is just something you cannot afford ever in this fight. After that, Jude doesn't have much else, but Great Apples are so good here, it's worth noting. I guess twinking out Finest Arts is worth something, but that's seriously chancey and Raquel can do something similar. Yulie's buffers are a little too slow as mentioned, but she has one thing the other two do not: Tank OTD if you are absolutely desperate. It requires some stupidly buffed set up and HP twinking (2/3 Chick Badges + Gold Sun + Fire HEX + Defending) but she can do it. Can you come back from it afterwards? Possibly. You can't Material to revive everyone since you're on the Fire HEX, but Crisis Speed would go off and if you used a Great Apple or casted Quicken, you'll likely be 300-400% average speed yourself. Other than that, Turn Shift is always good to have since it can pass off a vital turn to Raquel or Arnaud here and they can use it for offense/support respectively. Is that enough to beat Jude though? Mmm...maybe not. The issue with defending aginst OTD is its inefficiency and requires you to be looking for it. The fact that Yulie pretty much has no offense here probably puts her last. Although if you don't see Great Apples as reasonable, Jude's main selling point is lost. However, this is Ragu, who is pretty much "anything goes" in my book. Raquel > Arnaud > Jude >= Yulie.

And that's it! The last analysis post in this topic. Hope you all enjoyed the ride. Post game/overall massive evaluations possibly later.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:29:21 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Re: Musing over WA4 Balance
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 02:53:42 AM »
I am still reading this <3 Good work Tide. Nice to see Yulie's still making a stance and not giving up the ghost to Jude, even getting a couple of second places. Also wow look at Arnaud go ;o
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"