Author Topic: Season 41, Week 3  (Read 14315 times)

Meeplelard

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2008, 05:26:27 AM »
Yeah, lots of games distinguish evading and missing.

BoF4, comes to mind, where miss via Evading says "Parry" and for missing via accuracy (see Ershin's physical, many of Ursula's attacks, Risky Shot/Blow, etc.) it  says "Miss."

BoF3, it says "Miss" for both instances, and at first, I was going to correct Elfboy...until I remembered that I THINK Evading shows the character strafe a little to the the side, while Missing, they're stationary.

FFT (mostly applies to stuff like Breaks which aren't 100% Base accuracy), I believe it Evading it says "Guard" combined with showing a shield or them strafing to the side a bit (holding their arms up), or blocking with their weapon, whatever, while Miss it just says "Miss" (whether there's animation involved or not, wanna say it depends on the attack.)

Or what about ARPGs, where misses can just be totally out of bad aiming, and evading happens if you do connect, but the enemy actually manages to avoid?

The point is, bad Accuracy is different from Good Evasion.  They yield the same result (attack doesn't connect), sure...
But well, lets look at an example!

In the case of, say, 50% accuracy, the attack will only hit 50% of the time.  Unless you find a rare case  where a game actually has NEGATIVE EVADE (FE4 anyone <.<?), that 50% accuracy can never hit more than one out of every 2 shots.  Even if it ignores Evade, its still got a cap of 50% accuracy (Barring weird quirks of the system like Zodiac Affinities or Weapon Triangle Advantage that can alter rates one way or another, for entirely different reasons).  See FFT Snipe where it ignores Evasion, but it has a base accuracy that is significantly below 100%.  No matter HOW bad at evasion you are, these attacks can only hit 50% of the time, regardless.
By your logic, a character with "Below Average Evade" is suddenly allowing this attack to do something that it normally shouldn't, that being have a higher Hit Rate than is actually possible by the attacks distinctions, just cause the enemy has "below average evade" which in his OWN HOME GAME translates to a value well above 0?

Now, other side of the coin...
Say you have 50% evasion.  Lets assume this is actually 50%, and not a weird FE style subtraction evasion which requires scaling (hence why FE is taken against hit rates above 100, etc.)  So if someone has "average" accuracy which is 100% vs. 0% evasion, lets say (what many people claim is "average"; this is purely for sake of argument, mind, not saying I personally believe this), that attack will miss 50% of the time.
*HOWEVER*, lets say they come up against someone whose average effective accuracy is 150%.  This means that this 50% evasion is suddenly 25% in practice due to 50% of 150% is still 75%.

Which is to say nothing of 200% accuracy which completely overwhelms that 50%.

Now, yes, there are evade rates that ignore accuracy.  FF6's Interceptor comes to mind; he's a flat out 50% chance to block any SUCCESSFUL physical dealt to Shadow.  Even if the move IGNORES EVADE, if its a certain kind of attack (basically Fight/Battle commands and Specials), Interceptor has a flat out 50% chance to block it.
However, these moves are no different than moves that Ignore Evade but have below 100% accuracy like FFT's Snipe.

Ignoring those exceptions, in any event, do you see the difference?
In the case of 50% evasion, it *CAN* be overwhelmed, and made to look worse than it really is, if you have good accuracy.  If nothing else, refer to FFX.  Wakka has no problems hitting those pesky evasive fliers that other characters struggle to hit. These enemies have great evasion, but despite this, cause Wakka's accuracy is so high, he can overcome it and still hit them with no problem.

Bad Accuracy, meanwhile, cannot overcome bad evasion.  Momo's 70% accuracy in game stands out and she never hits anything more than 70% of the time on average.  Even enemies with absolutely no evade, she'll still miss.  The only way to get that 70% Accuracy higher is to either use moves like Shadow Walk which insure that the attack will hit, or give her accuracy boosters like the Artemis Cap.  Either way, Momo's accuracy caps at 70%, and it cannot be increased higher than 70% based on what she's targeting alone (barring very bizarre circumstances, like as I notd before, FE4 PCs who can actually have negative evade.)


So yeah, while the result might be the same, and the two are often related, there's a difference between Evading and Missing, and as such, we can derive that there's a huge difference between 100% Accuracy and 0% Evasion, in that the former insures you'll always hit, while the latter means the enemy gets no hit penalties against you.

Its a similar line of thought as how 0 Defense =/= 0 Defense.  Phantasy Star 4 enemies, for example, have such horrid defense that Profound Darkness' "low" defense score of 0 goes completely unnoticed, and is "low" in a pure numerical sense, when in practice, it means a whole extra like 2% more damage.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
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SnowFire

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2008, 06:01:28 AM »
Random point of order on Kratos vs. Yuna.  To get the Kratos hype train started...  if for some reason you completely ban Aeons for Yuna, Kratos actually wins this, on second thought.  As pointed out, he nulls Holy, so that leaves Yuna's mighty physical.  The thing is, ToS characters regenerate TP by beating other characters up.  So even a Blind Kratos going up against a Protected, Shelled Yuna will still easily generate enough TP to endlessly heal, and even if he could never kill her, he'd do far more damage in an infinite match and probably get a decision in his favor.  But...  it won't be an infinite match, because despite having 1 MP costs, Yuna will eventually, very slowly, run out of MP.  Kratos will get enough hits in to force her to occasionally heal (No hyping SOS Regen or Pray, please, if Kratos gets lucky and hits with everything, that will easily overwhelm a good 20-40% of Yuna's life at least, which is more than enough to break the Regen and Pray).  Eventually, Yuna will be out of MP and stuck with Pray, and eventually Kratos will get lucky enough to smash her through the Blind.  It'll be a slooooooooow fight because Kratos will spend a lot of time not using his special moves and merely recuperating TP, but he'll win.

As for me, I don't allow Yunas Aeons straight up, but I do allow her her Overdrives (it'd be weird and unfair not to let her have them), so, um, she heals until Overdrive and then Bahamut flattens Kratos.  But still!

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2008, 06:15:01 AM »
Yuna has a Darktouch weapon, which means Kratos will hit 10% of the time. An important detail for breaking down the epic, here.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2008, 06:35:14 AM »
Just curious about your view, Snowfire.  I'm not trying to challenge it, just wondering one thing...

You say you allow Overdrives for Yuna.  Now, do you allow the Aeon to stay out after the use of their Overdrive via Grand Summon, or do you assume the Aeon disappears (lets just say there's a hidden Seymour in the background casting Banish as a response to any Aeon Action right after they go) immediately after the overdrive?
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2008, 07:29:11 AM »
FE7 average damage was taken against 10 defense enemies, the ave. res/def for FE PCs is 14.5. 
This mean the average FE fight does 19.2 damage to 45HP in their cast.  See how nice and pretty FE works, average FE fighter 2.5HKOs another average FE fighter, which it about right.
However, for most games we have to scale.  Say FF6.  If we took literal killpoint of 2500HP then LOLOL Terra now has 4x PC damage.  So we take average damage and say 2.5x that is PC level kill.  (3800 ave. damage = 9500 kill = Terra slightly OHKOs with 9999.)

So if we scale most games damage based on the average in game, why not do that with FE evade?  Average evade in game is 59.4%, but the average PC in game also has more than 100% hit, meaning this evade can't be taken literally, unless we want a cast of heavy/godlikes.  This will make sense soon.

We scale most games based on interactions between PCs and enemies, not between PC vs PC. PC vs Enemy happens in game, while PC vs PC generally doesn't unless a PC is charmed or confused. And if you come up with average evasion being 31% for FE 8, this method in fact increases evasion because the practical evasion average is 27%.

Now, evasion is a valid form of durability to me...with the cavaet that the evasion is above average. Certainly matters for people who are going to be evading 50% of the time. For someone who has 10% more evasion that normal, it might come up in long drawn out matches, but not in a normal 3 turn match. But if you are calling evasion a form of durability, then aren't PC durabilities suppose to average out to be equal to one another?

I am cognizant that Tia can not evade in game, but I also believe that she can not miss. I don't feel like just because a game has no evade stat (a DL relevant one anyways, since capsules can apparentally), I'm not going to say someone like Estella has a perfect hit rate against them. To me, they fall as average (Similar to FFT characters having average defense). I see the difference, but I'm not going to say that someone who has a practical hit rate of 50% in game when there is no Momo-like cap gets to hit something 100% of the time if they come from a game where evasion mostly doesn't exist. I still don't see how pure stat based evasion should be separated from defense. It works like durability, as defense does. Like defense, it isn't the numerical existence of the stat that makes it useful, but rather having that number be larger than the number of fellowcast mates. 20% evasion isn't a good thing if the practical effect is you get hit 10% more than average. If there was a status attack with a base of 100%, and the average check reduced to 70%, but one character had a check that only reduced it to 80%, they wouldn't be considered status resistance. What makes evasion different?

On the 20% average game, that wouldn't sound unlike Piastol Mdef hype to me.

PC Kratos vs Aeonless Yuna=No one ever wins. However, Kratos is able to survive on the magic of 1% Regen, and at least is making damage stick more often which I suppose would make him more of the Jogurt in the Jogurt vs Shiho clause. Thank god Yuna has summons! I won't say that too often DL wise.
...into the nightfall.

Grefter

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2008, 11:10:53 AM »
I am going to say it again.

MEGA MAN PLOT.

This argument is fruitless.
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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2008, 12:19:22 PM »
Quote
By your logic, a character with "Below Average Evade" is suddenly allowing this attack to do something that it normally shouldn't, that being have a higher Hit Rate than is actually possible by the attacks distinctions, just cause the enemy has "below average evade" which in his OWN HOME GAME translates to a value well above 0?

No different from an attack doing more damage than it ever could in-game because the enemy has defense that is worse than anything in the home game. Consider Lilka's physical against an enemy with 0 WA2 defense (highest in her home game) and a naked FF6 character. Alternatively consider a status spell that has a %hit-rate that is higher than the DL than in-game against an FEer with horrendous Res, or FFTer with high Faith. Or LoL2 character with low Charisma.

And with that LilkaxTerra image, we return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 12:22:32 PM by Cryo »

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2008, 12:24:04 PM »
Godlike:

Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX): Goes first, OHKOs. Yuna has a huge arsenal of stuff that would shut down or outright splatter Kratos if she ever got a turn, but her evade *cough* isn't good enough to buy her one.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)

Heavy:

Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)

Middle:

Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)

Light:

Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)

Twilkitri

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2008, 12:34:31 PM »
Godlike:

Ted (S1) vs Jade (BoF1)

Middle:

Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)

Light:

Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)

superaielman

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2008, 02:29:56 PM »
I am going to say it again.

MEGA MAN PLOT.

This argument is fruitless.

Then don't post. It's a perfectly valid debate and it doesn't need this kind of response.
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Grefter

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2008, 02:38:50 PM »
Fine fine, it is just all old debates that have been rehashed each time Suikoden 3 comes up is all.  Edit - Just as a focal point for massive difference in evasion scaling.
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SnowFire

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2008, 06:44:08 PM »
Yuna has a Darktouch weapon, which means Kratos will hit 10% of the time. An important detail for breaking down the epic, here.

Well, Yuna damage is still mock-worthy, so worst comes to worst, Kratos just goes for the draw in the infinite fight.  He can still hit often enough to heal off Yuna's staff thwacks, I'm sure.  Kratos doesn't even have to "play it safe" since once someone's hit by the first few blows, I'd say that they're generally stunned and won't be missed again even by a blind character once Kratos starts actually spending MP to use moves.  So it's not like he has to invest his MP into a combo only to have it completely miss.

Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first.  Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2008, 07:09:55 PM »
Quote
Certainly matters for people who are going to be evading 50% of the time. For someone who has 10% more evasion that normal, it might come up in long drawn out matches, but not in a normal 3 turn match.

And therein lies the problem. If evade is equal to defence to you, you certainly don't seem to be treating it that way. After all, it needs to be hugely above average to apparently do anything in an average match. Whereas even slightly above average defence seems capable of mattering. More on that later.

Quote
But if you are calling evasion a form of durability

Let's just be clear, for DL purposes: I'm not, you are.

Quote
I am cognizant that Tia can not evade in game, but I also believe that she can not miss.

You're arguing she has an ITE physical? I'd disagree. Even if I didn't suspect there was some counterexample (being confused and attacking an evasive capsule? Some obscure enemy with evade I'm forgetting?), it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume basic physicals to be ITE without solid proof.

If she's not facing much evasion, it's because the enemies she faces lack the skill to do so.

Quote
If there was a status attack with a base of 100%, and the average check reduced to 70%, but one character had a check that only reduced it to 80%, they wouldn't be considered status resistance.

Actually, Suikoden 5 monsters generally aren't seen as weak to status just because all the humans can reduce it by 50%.


In-game example for why your scaling method spits all over evade (in addition to its intuition problems!)

Okay, I'm going to use two FE8 PCs, Vanessa (37 HP, 14 def, 80 avoid) and Kyle (52 HP, 18 def, 52 avoid). If we take a Silver weapon random with 33 attack and 100 hit, we get:

-Vanessa has a 8% chance to be hit for (barely) 2HKO damage. On average, she needs to be hit 25 times to be killed.
-Kyle has a 46% chance to be hit for 4HKO damage. On average, he needs to be hit 8-9 times to be killed.

Okay, let's pull out hypothetical physical boss (the game lacks one anywhere near endgame, so we will BS one) with 125 hit and 38 attack.

-Vanessa gets hit 40% of the time for 2HKO damage. On average, 5 hits to die.
-Kyle gets hit 85% of the time for 3HKO damage. On average, 3.5 hits to die.

Yet, in Dhyer-land, high evade doesn't get much respect at all for some reason. Since now Vanessa is only 28% above average evade, which to you seems to translate to "won't kick in on the first two turns" which is to say, if Vanessa is being 2HKOed it doesn't even matter. So what on earth is going on? Why is a character who, if evade is a form of durability, is clearly and provably DURABLE, getting two-shotted by average damage in the DL?

There are probably ways to correct this within your views, but I haven't seen you taking the steps towards them, which makes me suspect you are just out to nerf evade, rather than represent it fairly.

On the other hand, my view makes perfect sense. Kyle only evades 15% of the time, and the way I factor in evade this isn't a factor in fast matches, so this below average dodger gets no hype. He might evade in a longer match, but this is reasonable - anyone following my logic will nod, and say "Well yeah, Kyle's not a great evader, but he did do it sometimes, so it makes sense that it might happen once or twice over an unusually long match". Whereas the Vanessas who did survive by evading in-game can do it in the DL too, to some extent... unless they run into ITE (something they didn't even have to put up with in-game!). Seems entirely fair, reflective of in-game, and intuitive to me.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 07:16:40 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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superaielman

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2008, 07:51:31 PM »
Quote
You're arguing she has an ITE physical? I'd disagree. Even if I didn't suspect there was some counterexample (being confused and attacking an evasive capsule? Some obscure enemy with evade I'm forgetting?), it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume basic physicals to be ITE without solid proof.

If she's not facing much evasion, it's because the enemies she faces lack the skill to do so.

Pretty much. (Though I'm pretty sure that IP's ignore evade, I'm not 100% on this)


Quote
Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first.  Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.

There shouldn't be much in Godlike that outright survives an Aeon overdrive, even ignoring Anima/Magus Three.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 07:58:22 PM by superaielman »
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2008, 08:02:23 PM »
In Dhyer-land, Vanessa has 41% evasion, so she does in fact evade on turn 2.

And it's true that 10% evasion will have less on an effect than defense cutting damage 10% in the DL, as 10% evasion would need bad damage to come into play. It likely lags until 25% evasion. That could be chalked to the innate risk of depending on evading damage instead of lowering, but it's something to think on. I will admit, I have previously toyed with the idea of turning into another form of division defense. Blar, I guess the balance is that the character who evades 10% less than normal generally doesn't translate into taking 10% more damage in the DL either. So...guess that's kind of the flip. Characters will evasion very close to the average see it generally having a small effect.

The S5 scenario would work if all the humans innately halved status compared to monsters, as opposed to with an equip (Or alternately, the status checked Mdef!). If it checked MDef, someone with 80 MDef wouldn't be hit by the status all that time, but they'd still be hit with it more often than normal.

And no, I don't think Tia's physical is ITE. But if she can't evade in game, seems like she also can't miss. ITE? Inherently more accurate than characters from basically all other games where evasion exists? Wouldn't those be the correlary to having worse evasion compared to someone from a game where evasion exists but the character is bad at it?

To me, Tia misses against decent evasion just like
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BaconForTheSoul

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2008, 08:39:52 PM »
Code: [Select]
There shouldn't be much in Godlike that outright survives an Aeon overdrive, even ignoring Anima/Magus Three.
End game Yuna's Aeons don't quite smash everything in Godlike.
Shiva drops down a bit over 2.3X PCHP.  Someone who laughs at ice still takes 2.2x PCHP from Valefor.  If for some reason you don't allow those to break damage limits then Bahamut only does 1.3x PCHP.  These are good numbers obviously, but a lot of Godlike survives this.

The problem being that even if they survive, they have to have healing AND damage along with this durability to survive.  If Yuna got one Overdrive then she'll obviously get another.  Going by Snow's view... I can't think of anyone that will let Yuna live to see an OD, kill the Aeon, and somehow comeback and win the match.

Meeplelard

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2008, 10:09:07 PM »
Quote
Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first.  Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.

Ok, was just curious.  Its true that most Aeons do probably die after an Overdrive due to massive lag (though, from what I remember, they're massive tanks so they might survive anyway?) though, not a given, so helps me understand your votes some or something.
(mostly just nice to know where other people stand on votes so if you want to shoot your mouth off, you're not accidentally assuming they allow something they don't <_< )

And...I believe Valefor would be the best for a one shot.  Its got a hidden feature which jacks its evade against melee, and then Sonic Wings can be spammed against things not immune to it due to being a delay effect attack with quick recharge.

EDIT: For the record, anyone who allows Celestials for FFX and does *NOT* allow at very least Valefor to BDL is crazy, given Aeon's breaking the Damage Limit is directly related to celestials (heck, IIRC, it only needs the Crest release, not the Sigil)...well, at very least, Valefor, given that one is related to the Nirvana.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 10:13:43 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

BaconForTheSoul

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2008, 10:21:00 PM »
Right Meep, the thing is that someone who is more harsh on Yuna's Aeon views might also be more harsh on equipment.  Let's be honest, the Celestial weapons, although attainable, are oftentimes postgame.  I still don't think I've ever completed Lulu's, although that's as much due to customization ownage as anything else.

I obviously allow the Celestials, although I'm pretty liberal on equipment/spells in general, but I could definately understand if someone didn't allow them.  In this case Bahamut now has Yuna's best OD damage.  1.3x PCHP isn't bad, but it sure as hell isn't Valefor/Shiva.  Unless you think that Shiva could evade hype, get a turn, and heal herself, or that Valefor could evade hype, live, and sonic wing spam.

On that note... you're not even forced to Overdrive when you Grand Summon are you... unless my memory is way off.  Snow, would you allow Yuna to Grand Summon an Aeon and then simply fight with it, saving the overdrive for when it'd kill?

Meeplelard

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2008, 10:32:49 PM »
Grand Summon is purely summoning the Aeon with an extra Overdrive Gauge, yeah (in that if you use the Overdrive, the Aeon's gauge goes back to whatever it was before Grand Summon, which means you can fire off 2 Overdrives at once); forget if you can build up your normal Ovedrive while Grand Summon Overdrive is still intact though.

Either way, yeah, nothing forces you to use the Grand Summon damage, just often its a good idea in game since Bosses start pulling these anti Aeon tricks (Seymour's Banish, Yunalesca's Curse/Osmose/Absorb nonsense, Shrine Keepers stupid mines that you normally can walk away from but Aeons cannot given how they appear in the battle, etc.) so you want the most bang out of your Aeon's lone turn on bosses.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

SnowFire

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2008, 11:14:06 PM »
As Super notes, most of the time a Yuna Overdrive = splat, so there's no reason not to run out and do it right away, and in the rare times it isn't, there's often an incentive to shoot it off right away anyway.  And even if the Aeon dies, well, Yuna can start her healing game again and heal into an Overdrive.  I certainly think an OD will level PC Kratos, and boss Kratos probably doesn't null Holy.

As for Chapin's question if anyone in Godlike can survive the first Aeon to win the match...  it'd probably have to do with slow and/or triggered MP busting.  Maybe Albedo's XS1 form?  Yuna Holies him, he beats her up, she heals into an overdrive, the overdrive knocks Albedo to below 50% health, Albedo zaps Yuna's MP, Albedo proceeds to win.  Of course, this assumes that Albedo in fact survives the Overdrive +1-3 Holies.  I kinda doubt it, but it's plausible.

BaconForTheSoul

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2008, 02:19:33 AM »
Hadn't thought of a triggered MP busting... Albedo could do it given the HP.  Mind you Holy/Valefor is 3x PC damage and there is no way that Albedo survives that unless you have some crazy nice scaling.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2008, 08:39:31 AM »
Just a note, Anima and the fat magus sister are the only Aeons who are "crazy tanks". The rest of 'em are average to below average at taking hits. Shiva's evade is pretty good though.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2008, 04:20:35 PM »
Where on earth do you get that idea?

Bahamut:
HP 5413
DEF 85
MDEF 84

Ifrit:
HP 3822
DEF 91
MDEF 62
etc.

Average HP is 3563, average defences are in the low 30's (don't have it written down). Bahamut is an excellent tank, and every single aeon is above average at durability except possibly Valefor (who is an improved Lulu, durability-wise). Granted, I won't argue that any of the first four or Yojimbo are "crazy tanks", but Bahamut kinda is. (And for the record, Sandy is notably tankier than Anima, and Mindy is comparable.)

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VySaika

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2008, 08:54:10 PM »
Considering he also sees Kratos as faster then Yuna, it would seem Monkey has some odd views of FFX in general.
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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 41, Week 3
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2008, 11:04:25 PM »
Yuna's fast (like 120%), but not enough to keep up with Kratos.

The "odd" part of my view is that I see Tales physical combos as really speedy and Tales spells as really, REALLY slow. Same for star ocean games.