Season 41, Week 3

[Ryogo]

Well, I didn't get to make many picks, given my limited knowledge. I recall making two.
I didn't realize there were all these stats involved in the battles at the time, I just went off the descriptions and what I knew each character could do. And who I think would win in a real fight.
Probably should put my reasoning behind it.


Godlike:

Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX)  -  It takes time for Yuna to call out those Aeons. I'm pretty sure she can't call them and fend off Kratos at the same time. She has her Guardians for a reason. I could guarantee she's not winning a straight up physical fight either.


Light:

Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)  -  Lani's just too quick, varied, and with too many magics for Cyan's type.

[Meeplelard]

For whatever its worth, you are allowed to change your vote after you do; if you're afraid it'll be viewed as "cheating" for voting more than once, just make a note in the comments section that you're simply changing your vote (believe it takes the last vote you made as the one you chose anyway.)

[superaielman]

Yep. Revoting's fine, I can just merge the votes at the end of the week.

[Ryogo]

Well, maybe I'll roll down to the stats pages and sift through the brain numbing numbers, and take a revote then. Or just keep it if I still feel the same. I'll let ya know.

[Ryogo]

I think I'm going to keep my votes the way they are. I'm pretty confused on Yuna's weapons though. She can add abilities to her Celestial weapon to gain Darktouch AND combine with 1 MP cost like everyone is mentioning? Celestial Weapons abilities are maxed out already, leaving no room for them to be modded. At least thats what I thought. If thats the case, she can't have both.

So.... If she takes Darktouch over 1 MP Cost, she'll run out of MP very quickly if she wants to stay alive. On the other hand, if she takes 1 MP Cost, she can heal repeatedly without worry, and grab her overdrive in no time. Is there a charge time for her summon? Like, attack free charge? If so, Kratos should have this in the bag. But since Yuna has won so many battles, I'm going to assume there isn't, or at least she can get attacked while summoning and still succeed. Sorry, my mind is on Star Ocean 3 mode, where if they hit you, your spell is broken.

Anyways. Even with summons and all, my vote is staying with Kratos.

And Lani. Cyan is just going to be axe fodder in my opinion.

[Dark Holy Elf]

There's no charge time at all on summoning, either before or after the actual summon occurs. In addition to this, Yuna is very fast, being just behind Rikku for the fastest PC in FFX. Unless you disallow summons entirely I am not really seeing how Kratos will win, since aeons have both huge damage (at the very least their overdrives would generally be viewed as knocking out most PCs in one hit, and common view has Anima dealing enough damage to KO a typical PC with just her physical) and a variety of status attacks (Anima's Pain inflicts Death, and she also has 100% Sleep/Silence/Darkness/Zombie attacks).

[Meeplelard]

I think you're confused about the Yuna arguments in general.

Pro Yuna Arguments: Yuna goes first, summons an Aeon, that's that.  Kratos can't slug through that many Meat shields (especially since they have a lot of damage too, Anima in particular) before going down first.

Pro Yuna Arguments #2: Some people don't allow Aeons normally.  However, they do allow Yuna to use Grand Summon and have an Aeon use an overdrive.  Kratos fails to kill Yuna's turtling strategy before she uses Grand Summon and kills him outright (as was noted, Aeon Overdrives do sick damage.)

Yuna Loses Argument: Aeons are not allowed at all, Grand Summon be damned, so Yuna can't really hurt Kratos (Holy, her single way of doing competent damage, is being nulled out here), and since Kratos can replenish TP by just attacking, he has limitless resources with his healing to counter Yuna's incredibly bad damage.  Eventually, Yuna runs out of MP, while Kratos does not, and thus, Kratos beats her that.  Dark Touch was just a funny point brought up as to show how sad of a fight it is should you see Kratos winning (since it means Kratos beats Yuna on 10% chance hits...)

So...the whole fight is an interp call on Aeons.  Far as I can tell, most people allow them, which is why Yuna respect is so high.

Summons, for the record, in FFX are instantaneous actions, and don't even use up the turn; Yuna summons, and the Aeon gets a turn instantly.  At the same time, Yuna can't be hurt by any damage while the Aeon is out; this is why I used the term "Meatshield" before.  The fact that Yuna has a bunch of them means you have to be really good at surviving to get through all of them and THEN take her out, or be faster than her and stop her before she gets a turn (be kill her outright, or use some sort of status like Sleep that prevents her from acting.  Some may argue Suikoden Silent Lake and ilk would be enough too.)

So...yeah, they have no charge time, and don't even take up Yuna's turn, and make her invincible to all attacks until the Aeon dies.  Hence the reason why the philosophy of "If Yuna gets a turn, she wins" exists; there isn't really any one in the DL who can beat her who lets her get a turn (on top of the fact that she's naturally fast too.)  Those who beat her are the likes of Sephiroth, Kefka, Tir McDohl, etc. who out speed her and can stop her from getting her game going on her first turn.

[Ryogo]

I know in the game it doesn't take a turn, but there was always the animation and such, which was what I was going off of, instead of basing it off of the pure turn system. I also assumed that Kratos would be smarter than the average enemy and try and go around the aeon.  And I couldn't find a speed rating for Kratos, so I just guessed he was faster having not seen the game in a little while. I never actually realize Yuna's speed was so high either :S

But if we're going by exactly how each ability would work in game....

In that sense, Kratos is effed then. But since I know it wont matter, I'll keep the faith and leave my vote on Kratos

[Monkeyfinger]

Yuna Loses Argument: Aeons are not allowed at all, Grand Summon be damned, so Yuna can't really hurt Kratos (Holy, her single way of doing competent damage, is being nulled out here), and since Kratos can replenish TP by just attacking, he has limitless resources with his healing to counter Yuna's incredibly bad damage.  Eventually, Yuna runs out of MP, while Kratos does not, and thus, Kratos beats her that.  Dark Touch was just a funny point brought up as to show how sad of a fight it is should you see Kratos winning (since it means Kratos beats Yuna on 10% chance hits...)

Yuna Loses Argument That Makes Sense: Tales fighters are faster than Yuna and FF10 evade is overrated.

there isn't really any one in the DL who can beat her who lets her get a turn

Myria would like a word with you.

[Meeplelard]

Ryogo: Vote however you like, though its encouraged you vote based on game play, no one is forcing you to vote a certain way, after all.

[SnowFire]

Things that beat all Yuna's summons: I may be funny on this, but considering the general propensity of bosses to blow away summons instantly that Meeplelard lists, I'm generally inclined to allow any major boss dispel effect to work fine on them.  Hence I voted Rhapthorne over Yuna (and would vote the same way if I gave Yuna full Aeons at any time), since he can Wave of Ice off Yuna's summons, letting them only have one turn.  (And he can get around Yuna's protect-turtling via getting the occasional triple turn thanks to random DQ8 turn order).  Also, arguably, if Yuna is stupid and summons them one at a time, and Anima/Magus/(Yojimbo?) are ignored, Yuri might be able to tank through the Aeons, using Energy Charge to finish off their last bit of health quickly and not letting them Overdrive.  Of course, Yuri loses anyway, because Yuna again turtles until Grand Summon, and wins that way again.

Ryogo: Holistic thinking in the DL is fine (I certainly allow Tales movement to mean many things), but Kratos case isn't helped by the fact that Sheena's summons generally go "pow" right away.  Now, you can ignore the thingies that Boss Sheena summons and just kill her, so your argument has some point, but...  even if after Yuna finishes summoning an aeon, if the Aeon goes into overdrive right away Kratos is still flattened.  So Yuna would just turtle until Grand Summon to defeat that anyway, even if you give her use of Aeons right off.

Or there's Monkeyfinger's argument, which is certainly fair enough.  I've long considered Tales spells slow and interruptable (Genis beating Thomas?  WTF?), but I suppose the flipside of that is that physical attacks should be quick.  Hmm.

[Dark Holy Elf]

the general propensity of bosses to blow away summons instantly

This is an ability possessed by only two bosses in the game: Seymour Natus and Seymour Flux. It's noteworthy that while endgame FFX bosses do tend to have Dispel (Yunalesca and Seymour Omnis, aka DL Seymour), said dispel does nothing special against aeons AND said bosses don't have any aeon-killing moves (although Yunalesca's skillset includes a few moves that just happen to trump aeons nicely in-game). I'd be reluctant to generalise a banish-type move to all dispel moves. On the other hand it would be reasonable to generalise it to other transformation-killers like... uh... Brahman's Revert! For when we NEVER RANK HIM EVER.

Kratos was, from the bits of ToS I played, notably slow for a Tales fighter, though. And there are only two PCs in the entire ToS cast relying on magic for offence, IIRC. I can't imagine he'd end up far above average, and beating #2 out of 7 in a non-trivial speed spread requires you to be pretty far above average.

Yuna destroys Yuri because Anima has Sleep Buster regardless. I can't see any good reason to ban Anima - it's completely unique and a noteworthy plot point that she gets it (if optional, but we allow optional things in the DL last I checked). I can see better arguments to ban the first five, honestly!

Anima also OHKOs Rhapthorne as far as I'm concerned, but YMMV with boss scaling, etc. Also given that Wave of Ice doesn't blow away Call Team, letting it blow away aeons seems extra baffling.

[Luther Lansfeld]

...Rhapthorne's Wave of Ice doesn't even hit the summons in his own game... saying that move in particular cancels shit is just mindblowing.

[SnowFire]

1. I ban Call Team anyway.  That's not a magical summon; Yuna's Aeons are magical.
2. Don't forget the Sanctuary Keeper's mine that also blows away Aeons.
3. I will freely admit I'm looking for damn near any reasonable excuse I can to gimp Yuna.  Yes, these are stretches, and if Yuna is clearly in the right I'll let her have it, but generally judgment calls don't go her way for me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2. Don't forget the Sanctuary Keeper's mine that also blows away Aeons.

Actually, that's immunity-piercing ID, which does exactly the same thing to PCs. (It's also Spectral Keeper, but that's a nitpick. Sanctuary Keeper is the one fought on the cliffs before Zanarkand, Spectral is the one in the dome itself right before Yunalesca.)

[Ultradude]

Kratos would also be faster than Presea, I'd imagine. She's pretty slow in general for a physical fighter, though the power and a bit of reach are what help make up for it.

I'd also like to look for excuses to nerf Yuna but I always feel guilty about it. I always try to avoid being harder on one character than another just because I like one character more. Of course, I think I'd end up allowing Call Team if I played DQ8, and I allow Yuna all of her plot Aeons and Anima (not sure on Magus Sisters and Yojimbo, and I never got 'em anyways). I take the dispelling of summons pretty literally; if there isn't any precedent for a spell being able to dismiss summons in the home game, then given that regular Dispel from bosses doesn't touch Aeons in FFX, I wouldn't allow the other dispels to either. That is, of course, just how I see it.

I also don't think I allow Kratos to run around the Aeons, given that trying to run around a big guy to get a little guy tends to just get you whacked in-game, unless you time some guarding and back-stepping to get around 'em. I'll give you that he's faster than spells (though I only give them a fraction of their in-game lag), but he's still only fifth in attack speed at best (ahead of Genis, Raine, and possibly Presea and Colette).

[Cmdr_King]

If I'm not mistaken, attack speed (assuming the mages are spellcasting, obviously) is along the lines of Sheena>Lloyd>Regal>Zelos=Kratos>Presea>>Colette>>Raine>Genis, although if you include running speed in that calculation as well Colette loses a bunch of her edge over the mages.  General point being that while Kratos isn't really slow, it's probably a stretch to say he's faster than Yuna.

Of course, the idea that an attack that consists of multiple, independently evade-checking blows is guaranteed to kill Yuna is pretty suspect anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

[Monkeyfinger]

ARPG attack combos are all or nothing. You miss the first hit and your entire chain is blown, or you connect with it, staggering the opponent and making it impossible for the opponent to dodge any of the folllowing hits.

When checking them vs. evade, they need to be treated as one single attack.

This, incidentally, is why I think the fighters are so fast. Since the success of the combo depends upon the opener, the opener is what I judge speed based off of, not the whole chain. Comparing an opening slash in ToS to a spell from the same game... well, I think you see how badly the spells get the short end of the stick there.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If it's as horrible as you're suggesting, would the mages just be better off using physicals on average?

[Monkeyfinger]

In abyss, maybe.

In Symphonia, as well as every star ocean game, the mages don't even have tech chains, just their basic physicals which barely register as damage.

[Meeplelard]

One of the things Monkey is totally discounting is how Mages don't care about range at all.

For example, yes, it takes time to cast the spell...but while they're charging, your fighters have to RUN UP to the enemy, then attack. So the spell often resolves a lot faster in practice than its speed vs. a basic combo would suggest.

Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again."  All things considered, it kind of offsets it.

The speed is being exaggerated too.  Yes, Mages are slower than fighters...but they aren't so slow to the point where they are Ghaleon level speed (Nor are Fighters suddenly on par with the likes of Alena for speed.)  Hold this against them, but don't go suddenly claiming Fighters are these super speedsters, cause that's not what is happening.

And combos aren't all or none; I've definitely seen on several occasions, in both Tales and Star Ocean games, where you hit with the first attack in the chain...and somewhere in the middle, some of the attacks get blocked, evaded, etc.
Not to mention "All or None" is wrong too; you can easily miss the first hit, but still follow up and succeed on the rest (this...isn't that uncommon a circumstance against fast enemies.)

Really feels like facts are being twisted to make Kratos seem like he has a better chance than he does.  ARPG combos aren't all or none...heck, the ACTUAL ATTACK isn't all or none.  I know I've definitely seen things like Reid's Omega Demon Chaos get several hits in, but others blocked (unless the enemy was actually in a defensive stance; you have to keep that in mind that in many Tales games, Evading = Auto Defend, in practice, so sometimes, what seems like blocking is actually the enemy jumping into a Defensive stance beforehand), or Fayt's Air Raid yield similar results...
And these series are pretty consistent on this as well, all the way back to the original Tales of Phantasia.  I'd be shocked if suddenly ToS was an exception among all this.

[Monkeyfinger]

For example, yes, it takes time to cast the spell...but while they're charging, your fighters have to RUN UP to the enemy, then attack.

You're really underestimating how easy it is to do that, at least to a mid/endgame spell, even if there's a full battlefield between the fighter and the mage - which, in the DL, there likely won't be even at the start of the fight since if ample distance is assumed, it leads to:

Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again."  All things considered, it kind of offsets it.

Kiting arguments, one of the big DL no-nos.

I know I've definitely seen things like Reid's Omega Demon Chaos get several hits in, but others blocked (unless the enemy was actually in a defensive stance; you have to keep that in mind that in many Tales games, Evading = Auto Defend, in practice, so sometimes, what seems like blocking is actually the enemy jumping into a Defensive stance beforehand), or Fayt's Air Raid yield similar results...

I haven't.

You vote based on your own anecdotal evidence, I'll do the same.

[Grefter]

Fun with Tales battle system.  Monkey is right, the running time in every single Tales game ever is negligible compared to high end summons. Edit - That was meant to be spells in general.

Other fun, enemies can block mid-combo I believe if they have enough time to get out of their being hit animation and return to a neutral position so that they block, much like most fighter games with neutral guard.  Slower combos are more likely to be blocked and broken mid combo (thinking... Omegal Seal maybe just as an example?).

Kiting arguments = looooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll MMO CHARACTERS FOR GODLIEK.

[Niu]

Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again."  All things considered, it kind of offsets it.

This usually not apply though, most Tales game ties mages on the spot during the spell animation. In ToS you need to have certain exsphere set up to allow movement during the animation. ToA.... I don't remember.

On whether does the all or none argument stand true, it goes game by game. ToE and SO2/3 are not. ToA is, and ToS I forgot.

[Cmdr_King]

I definitely recall Mithos (who has a ludicrously high block rate.) starting to block mid-combo on those occasions he didn't block from the start.  There may be some truth to the idea that it's rarer once they're spam-locked, or I could be wrong!  But if you want to test how ToS does it, Mithos is your guy.
(Incidentally, this is why I have any kind of respect for Mithos in the DL.)