Season 63 Rankings: Making the final cut

[Dhyerwolf]

The semi-strong internal is nice, but now that writeups aren't as big an issue, don't help as much as general playership.

No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO (X100,000).

I can't stress this strongly enough, but writeups are a serious, serious issue. Only a small number of people grab them, and even then we often see delays of 2-3 weeks getting out week 1. While the work load is less, the level of work input has plummeted even compared to work load. I might be doing more writeups now that when there were twice as many writeups. Anything that has any boon in writeups shouldn't be ignored.

I also have to second OK that this argument that SN PCs up for ranking don't have stand out stats or abilities compared to generics. For example, Odie versus the generic version:

HP: 365 vs 195!!
Effective Damage: 332 vs 155!! (That 155 is the second highest generic damage).

I'm not sure how much better than double HP and effective damage the PCs have to be to stand out. The raw HP gain is of course even high for the special PCs, but the effective damage is really in line. OB generics reach higher damage than SN and SN Special's reach higher than OBs! I'll admit I don't remember OB well, but if anything I'd imagine the general absurd of SN Special PCs way overshadows OB.

Interest in casts can of course be subjective, but Tricia has a weakness that I don't believe a single ranked dueller has? Odie's is shared by approximately 5 duellers? And this is on top of quirky buffs and such limit smashing? I can't really see calling the cast all that dull (And if so...they kind of have everything that FE casts have, so it would kind of be really odd in conjunction).

Allowing row switching is highly, highly rare, and shouldn't be a point against the game. Super's argument of the typing being really complex is the best argument I've heard in terms of translation, although it's based so notably on a rock-paper-scissors system (And also fairly intuitive if you read any fantasy!) that kind of makes it easier.

[superaielman]

I *strongly* second Dhyer about writeups being a problem. Want to help? Great! You don't even have to do it during week 1-2 (though that is super helpful). Grab some writeups and do them now. Like with bios, we can have them done ahead of time.

at least has a lot of characters are different than normal classes (and I don't think the ones who aren't should be ranked)

In fairness, we've definitely gone in the in the other direction as far as ranking there goes (FE games, etc).

Row switching is pretty DL irrelevant, I don't think anyone really allows that.

---

Trying to articulate the general 'blah' to this game in the DL is something people are struggling with. It's a niche title with some mechanics (The alignment system is the big one here) that aren't DL friendly. It's also a generic only cast (Souped up ones ala OB, granted). The main character isn't rankable, the game's most memorable character isn't rankable. It's pretty much a slugging cast across the board. There's no real fatal problems with it, but feels largely unappealling unless you're a fan or really like the characters fighting style. I love SN, but I get a giant sense of blah from it as a DL game.

[VySaika]

Dhyer/Super/Etc: Just a random note on Writeups here. I know I haven't been grabbing many lately, largely due to having other writing projects to think about. Any time but the last week of a month, feel free to poke me in chat and go "Gate, do X writeup".

Will get to actual ranking stuff later, has no brain at the moment.

[SnowFire]

Dhyer, we can both be right.  Writeups aren't as big an issue any more, yet they're still an issue.  These are compatible statements.  However, if we ranked FE10, DHE already voluntereed to writeup the cast, and if DQV or FF13 were ranked, then yes, I would volunteer to help write up the cast there, too.

[OblivionKnight]

Trying to articulate the general 'blah' to this game in the DL is something people are struggling with. It's a niche title with some mechanics (The alignment system is the big one here) that aren't DL friendly. It's also a generic only cast (Souped up ones ala OB, granted). The main character isn't rankable, the game's most memorable character isn't rankable. It's pretty much a slugging cast across the board. There's no real fatal problems with it, but feels largely unappealling unless you're a fan or really like the characters fighting style. I love SN, but I get a giant sense of blah from it as a DL game.

Just to keep commenting on things to keep this topic alive and people reading it:

1) Alignment system?  I assume you mean Ogre Battle here, and not Soul Nomad - Soul Nomad's alignment system only applies to endings, and is more comparable to Star Ocean's than anything (use more people in combination attacks with Revya, their relationship metre goes up).

2) Generic-only cast?  In terms of character worth I assume you don't mean.  I don't agree with that.  Unlike other casts of generic characters (again, you may have a different definition of generic than I do), these people have skillsets and relatively big stat differences, even compared to their generic counterparts.  Much different than say, Fire Emblem or Ogre Battle, or even Disgaea.

3) I don't agree, but I do see the point about Revya not being rankable.  I'm fine with her not getting ranked, but other portions of the game getting in - I just don't see her as unrankable.

4) Who is the game's most memorable character?  Odie and Raksha are probably the most memorable to me, and they're perfectly rankable.  I assume you mean Levin?  Well...he is rankable, no matter how you interpret it (either rank him or Raksha, or you could argue to rank both - I'd rank just Raksha, but your mileage may vary here - either way, a component of him is rankable, and arguably the most memorable part - the boss form).

5) Far less of Soul Nomad is a "slugging" cast compared to a lot of other things.  Fire Emblem is all "slugging".  Disgaea's cast is the same thing.  Ogre Battle's is the same thing.  Let's talk skillsets:

Revya - High damage ranged attack, plus stat boosting
Agrippa - Stat boosting and healing
Danette - Stat boosting
Galahad - Stat boosting
Grunzford - Healing + stat boosting + Don't Move Status (hey, a FFT thing!)
Odie - Damage + poison + field effects

And all these stat boosting characters play to their strengths - Danette's is focused on her speed and evasion (80% ACT boost!) while Galahad's is focused on defenses (60% DEF boost!).  And the bosses are different too! 

Shauna - Evades until she kills with her special
Cuthbert - Heals and uses a draining damage attack
Thuris - Fast summoning mixed with poison
Feinne - Depending on the turn, is either Godlike or Light; healers have an advantage vs. her, while usual blitzers don't!

The cast as a whole is very interesting, and far more than "just sluggers".  Fire Emblem, Disgaea, and Ogre Battle are far more "slugging" games - Soul Nomad characters are far more interesting to fight with.

[Meeplelard]

FE10:
Played it, rank it.  Elfboy's list looks fine, for all that I'd like to see Dheggy in, hard to justify him objectively.

SN:
Haven't played it, don't rank it.  Yeah, I agree on what has been said, not much to add.

[Tide]

Fire Emblem 10:
Have you played this game? - Yep
Rank it? - Yes

Rank: Micaiah, Sothe, Nailah, Cain, Elincia, Sanaki, Oliver, Zelgius, Sephiran
Abstain on: Ashera, Izuka, Lekain
No: Everyone else.

Why or why not? - Don't see a reason not to. At the very least like NEB was saying, it legitimizes some FE9 PC forms (Elincia, Tibarn, Naesala). I don't support a huge ranking though.

Soul Nomad:
Have you played this game? No
Rank it? - Abstain
Why or Why not? - I haven't played it, so I can't put an honest opinion on whether or not it is a good or bad rank. If we do rank it, the interp issues can probably be worked around, but it sounds like the game has some other issues based on what people have been saying (boring duellers?).

PS to OK: I am in for ranking Starcraft! Then we can also rank Doom and get JOHN STALVERN the Space Marine ranked!

[Luther Lansfeld]

4) Who is the game's most memorable character?  Odie and Raksha are probably the most memorable to me, and they're perfectly rankable.  I assume you mean Levin?  Well...he is rankable, no matter how you interpret it (either rank him or Raksha, or you could argue to rank both - I'd rank just Raksha, but your mileage may vary here - either way, a component of him is rankable, and arguably the most memorable part - the boss form).

Gig~

[OblivionKnight]

4) Who is the game's most memorable character?  Odie and Raksha are probably the most memorable to me, and they're perfectly rankable.  I assume you mean Levin?  Well...he is rankable, no matter how you interpret it (either rank him or Raksha, or you could argue to rank both - I'd rank just Raksha, but your mileage may vary here - either way, a component of him is rankable, and arguably the most memorable part - the boss form).

Gig~

Well, yes. 

But Super's comment of the most memorable character not being rankable being a detriment to the game is like saying Atelier Iris is unrankable because Veola has no battle form.  >_>

[Luther Lansfeld]

4) Who is the game's most memorable character?  Odie and Raksha are probably the most memorable to me, and they're perfectly rankable.  I assume you mean Levin?  Well...he is rankable, no matter how you interpret it (either rank him or Raksha, or you could argue to rank both - I'd rank just Raksha, but your mileage may vary here - either way, a component of him is rankable, and arguably the most memorable part - the boss form).

Gig~

Well, yes.  

But Super's comment of the most memorable character not being rankable being a detriment to the game is like saying Atelier Iris is unrankable because Veola has no battle form.  >_>

He's not saying it's unrankable because of it. He is merely pointing out that having the game's most popular character not rankable is a bit of a bummer for it ranking-wise.

[Lance]

Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
1. No
2. Yes
Rank: Micaiah, Sothe, Zelgius, Elincia, Sanaki, Sephiran, Kurthnaga, Ilyana, Gatrie, Shinon, Kieran, Marcia, Astrid, Lethe, Bastian, Lucia, Geoffrey, Oliver
Abstain on everyone else

Soul Nomad
1. No
2. Yes
Abstain on individual rankings.

[superaielman]

1.Attack alignment system. The strength/weakness one.

2. Generic as in classes. They're just improved versions of the normal thing. This doesn't bother me too much at this point, but it is something people mind.

3. Revya not being rankable is pretty universally agreed upon.

4. Gig

5. FE and OB are pretty straight ahead slugging casts, though both have some things going for it in that regard. (OB's got some fairly interesting tanks/lights, FE is FE). SN boils down in a similar way, though it has things going for it.

I'm not sure how much I agree with all of it besides 1, but it's enough to make me really not thrilled about it as a DL idea.

[Dhyerwolf]

We should then punish most other games for not even having a character as fun as Gig in the first place to debate!

OK, don't forget to add in Suikofighters,  and even SO 2, a good number of Tales games, the Chrono Cross...etc to your pure slugging list.

SN brings a lot of advantages in terms of translation that I don't think other games brings. The second you get the PCs, you are getting exactly they can do at max and you are getting them quite early. Just thinking of how ToV was up last round, and you have characters there that you have to jump through hoops to get their DL potential. That SN PCs come so out of the box but still have all those quirks I think is a big advantage. No need to worry about levels, getting last second mega potential alteration skills,  sidequests that may be not so straightforward...etc.

I'd also note that they've never really seemed to have trouble on board tournaments translating; That's actually gone pretty smoothly. Not really sure why it would be different than the DL. For people saying it just doesn't translate, we why did you think did okay on the board but isn't DL suitable? Actually, a lot better than OB in that regards; OB's ranking is like...all optional PCs, that I missed...every single one of the first time through the game. SN's is all forced, and 6 of 7 of the best ranking tier have all joined very well before endgame.

As to Super's 5 just posted, the first is the one is the only really strong reason and even then the alignments follow an easy pattern (Grunzford, Tricia, Vitali and Layna all have some interesting tanking games; So do Pinot, Danette and Agrippa if you extend that to evasion tanking). You see it so much in game and the rest is so straighforward that it just kind of seems like something picked up naturally. Not all facets of course, but Tricia is designed to destroy mages and you learn quickly to keep her far from fighters. Melee hates mages, mages hate ranged and healers.

[Dhyerwolf]

And right, writeups are worse than before. We never had delays before over writeups. Now they are commonplace. We never had 2-3 weeks go by with only one person posting writeups. That is now commonplace. Look at the writer breakdown and perhaps more importantly, the writer turnaround. Notably worse than it ever was before. Especially note season 62, right after the writeup level plummeted. Yes, there are half as many writeups, but the level of contribution has dropped more than that.

[OblivionKnight]

1.Attack alignment system. The strength/weakness one.

2. Generic as in classes. They're just improved versions of the normal thing. This doesn't bother me too much at this point, but it is something people mind.

5. FE and OB are pretty straight ahead slugging casts, though both have some things going for it in that regard. (OB's got some fairly interesting tanks/lights, FE is FE). SN boils down in a similar way, though it has things going for it.

I'm not sure how much I agree with all of it besides 1, but it's enough to make me really not thrilled about it as a DL idea.

1) Not much different than the Fire Emblem weapon triangle.  While more impactful, it's pretty basic (hey, I deal bonus damage to ARCHERS...that's pretty easy to view!).

2) Not completely sure what you're trying to say here.  It's a very similar thing with other games I've mentioned.  It happens with a lot of games with classes - I will probably butcher the FFT here, but isn't Agrias a Knight with some extra skills?  I'd argue that they're a bit more unique than just upgraded class units, but I understand the point you're trying to make.

5) Don't understand your comment here.  What are you saying here?  Seems similar to what I previously said.  Strikes me as saying that SN...has an advantage over those.

[superaielman]

FE triangle is extremely simplistic and easy to understand, SN's system is a good deal more complicated. (Agrias has a completely different skillset than a Knight.)


None of these are a big deal by themselves or even combined, but it is enough to make people leery of it. I'd like to see some of the other people besides ciato who said no speak up to see what they think.

[AndrewRogue]

FE10

No
Yes
Abstain on individuals

SN
No
Yes
Abstain on individuals

[Nephrite]

Yes to everything.

[Fudozukushi]

FE10

No
Abstain


SN
Yes
Yes

Rank: Danette, Vitali, Levin, Juno, Grunzford, Galahad, Odie, Tricia, Kanan(interesting moveset) Thuris, Raksha, Dio(has a decor which sets all attack matches to Neutral) Layna, Gesthal

No: Revya(too strong), Feinne(plot boss), Shauna(dull, relies entirely on limit to deal damage), Cuthbert(utterly hilarious in a duel but just not enough screentime to warrant) Agrippa(joining is completely random and has no effect on the plot), Pinot(Same as Agrippa but worse) Endorph(one fight, splitpath otherwise which is a pain to get.  Has fair enough plot though, sorta...), Drazil(plot boss with completely bizarre scaling)

[OblivionKnight]

FE triangle is extremely simplistic and easy to understand, SN's system is a good deal more complicated. (Agrias has a completely different skillset than a Knight.)


None of these are a big deal by themselves or even combined, but it is enough to make people leery of it. I'd like to see some of the other people besides ciato who said no speak up to see what they think.

I see your points, but...I am still failing to see how the game doesn't fit the typical categories we set out for ranking (plus other reasons).

1) Not Enough Voters: The only solid reason I can see here...and...uh...I don't think it has as much an impact as people say.  Find me the randomized, placebo-controlled studies saying that this will have an effect on votership now (when the majority is a small core), and then we'll go from there.  At worst, this reasoning makes a smaller rank a better idea than no rank - there's clearly a demand for the game to be ranked.

2) Too Hard to Compare to RPG Characters: Nope.  Pretty easy - it's like OB and Disgaea, which are already ranked and can easily be compared.

3) Not Interesting Combat-Wise: Nope.  Noted this already, so no further elaboration.

4) Not Interesting Character-Wise: HAH.  No.  

5) Main Character Not Rankable: Arguable again whether Revya is or not.  However, this shouldn't be an impact to the game's success or rankability - we didn't rank Minato (and the game has not done badly at all) or Ryu the Fifth (and this hasn't changed outcomes at all that I can tell)

6) Match-Up Typing Confusion: Not seeing the impact of this.  We have plenty of characters ranked that have weapons that give a bonus vs., say, humans or beasts (Tales), and that's not been confusing.  Hell, the Final Fantasy 6 Man Eater hits a broader category of humans than most would assume, but this hasn't came up often (granted, the practical effect is relatively minimal as a whole, from what I know).  While some of the typings may be a bit weird to interpret (plants?  bards?)...it's not like there isn't A) a precedent and B) some common sense that can be applied.  What is the Silver element of Skies of Arcadia?  What do people take the "Flying" type for in Pokemon?  What the hell was up with SaGa Frontier in general (prior to having NEB make some notes on it) and the way things worked?  There are plenty of things that have come up in the past that are similar, and those things work out.  It's not impacted any of these games that I know of in terms of performance.  How difficult would it be to imply that Danette having a bonus vs. Plants and Dogs in-game applies to the DL (woohoo she kills Connie and Exdeath - that's kind of cool!)?  This is kind of the interesting stuff (like elemental weaknesses) people seem to like that's fairly easy to view.

7) PCs Effectively Generics: Again, no.  There are definite defining stat differences and skillset differences.  I've seen people say that Ogre Battle does this better...how?  How?  I can't fathom it.

This is what I've seen people say, particularly those who haven't played the game.  Not to pick on NEB, but his list is the best one I've seen overall for these comments from people who haven't played the game:

"Niche PS2 game, boring in the DL, has some interp issues at worst (see what Tal just said) and is a series of poor translations at worst. OB comparisons don't help since I don't really consider OB to be a particularly great ranking success, and SN seems to lack what little that has made OB a salvageable idea (i.e. certain PCs with standout stats a la OB dragoons, decent external playership)."

Maybe I'm missing something, but these points have been addressed.  If it's all on external playership (fine, though I don't agree there - I expect the game's got better playership than I think people expect, though I can't find anything to back this up...also, isn't external a minor point anymore?  The game has a desire to be ranked, and has support, and...if we're focusing mostly on a core cadre of players/voters, SN is great), then I can see that - but it's the other reasons people cite (or don't cite) I'm not sure about.  

It's not boring in the DL, it's popular, the interpretation issues aren't a problem, the translation is good and easily understandable, the translations into the DL are not confusing, the PCs are standout...not sure if I'm missing anything here or not, but I can't see what the big, big hold-up issue is.  I'd appreciate it if someone could enlighten me.

[Luther Lansfeld]

You can't "fathom" that Ogre Battle PCs are actually different than their generic counterparts unlike SN PCs? The dragoons have a different skillset  So does Tris and Debonair. C'mon, man.

It's a popular DL idea? Among who? Some of the game's biggest fans are the ones rallying against it, so obviously it's doing something wrong. (I think this is a circular argument because if you ignore the people who played it who don't want it ranked then it is a popular idea!)

The not-interesting combat wise thing is where I have a major hangup. They have higher stats than generics!!! is not interesting. I didn't even remember the weakness hitting stuff! Most of the characters just hit things and have these very minor quirks otherwise. Are you trying to say this is interesting?

Go to Board 8 and places like that and you will see a subsample of people who are interested in tournament-type stuff and RPGs and very few of them have played SN. I do agree that this is a minor point, though. I don't think SN is what I would define as 'great' internally, though, but acceptable. I would really quite like numbers on this before I say anything though. Supa?

[superaielman]

It's pretty good but not outstanding? This topic gives a pretty good thumbnail of how of playership is with the game.

[Fudozukushi]

I didn't even remember the weakness hitting stuff! Most of the characters just hit things and have these very minor quirks otherwise. Are you trying to say this is interesting?

Complaining about this when a Fire Emblem is also being ranked screams double standard to me.

[OblivionKnight]

You can't "fathom" that Ogre Battle PCs are actually different than their generic counterparts unlike SN PCs? The dragoons have a different skillset  So does Tris and Debonair. C'mon, man.

Remind me how they are that different.  Unless I am completely missing something...isn't it the same thing?  I can't "fathom" that OB PCs, whom have different "skillsets" based on rows, are less like their generic counterparts than SN PCs, who also have different "skillsets" based on rows as well as active field tactic abilities to use.  The SN characters have some stuff in common with the generics, true, but also stuff that stands out including higher stats (which is an argument for the OB characters more than the SN characters in terms of generics - that their stats stand out more compared to the generics than the equivalent SN characters do)  Am I mis-remembering OB?  Please correct me if I am missing something there.  Unless we're talking about the names of the attacks here, in which case I don't know how that plays a role.  Levin is different than the Baredknuckle class - different stat growth, different field tactics - yes the regular attacks are the same names and similar animations, but...is that what you're talking about?  There's clearly differences that standout (hell, some characters are unique classes!  Danette effectively is!), just like OB - I can't "fathom" how SN PCs are not different from their generic counterparts when they clearly are.    

It's a popular DL idea? Among who? Some of the game's biggest fans are the ones rallying against it, so obviously it's doing something wrong. (I think this is a circular argument because if you ignore the people who played it who don't want it ranked then it is a popular idea!)

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4526.0.html .  Previous ranking season had it at 3rd most suggestions, 1 behind FE10.  Think the season before had it too.  The discussion topics all had good support for it.  The game is well-liked in general (popular meaning this, not so much popular DL-idea, although it has those merits too).  Yes, some of the fans rally against it, but that is different than what was said in the past, and I'm not too clear on why.

The not-interesting combat wise thing is where I have a major hangup. They have higher stats than generics!!! is not interesting. I didn't even remember the weakness hitting stuff! Most of the characters just hit things and have these very minor quirks otherwise. Are you trying to say this is interesting?

They have, as I've mentioned before, skillsets (unless you don't allow the field tactics or +/- system, in which case, yes, they are basically hitting things while waiting for their limits...which is just like FF8!  And that strikes me as artificially limiting the cast for no good reason, honestly).  Yes, they hit things and that's it - so does FE10.  And FE9.  And OB.  They have higher stats than generics yes!  They have the weakness hitting stuff!  We may have two different definitions of interesting here, then.  I think th ey're more interesting than OB or FE7/8 characters most definitely.  I find the bosses especially interesting - Shauna and Kanan in particular are based around odd quirks that we don't see often, and don't just hit things to death.

Go to Board 8 and places like that and you will see a subsample of people who are interested in tournament-type stuff and RPGs and very few of them have played SN. I do agree that this is a minor point, though. I don't think SN is what I would define as 'great' internally, though, but acceptable. I would really quite like numbers on this before I say anything though. Supa?

See the link I posted.  Had a good player set, although that is a few seasons outdated.  I just can't understand where things fell apart, or if everyone's mentality just switched completely then.  *shrugs*  

[Cmdr_King]

Since it's come up, here's some data for these two games.  Dated about one year ago.

Fire Emblem- xxii
Players- alanna, Gate, CK, Tal, OK, YOSHIKEEEEEN, Dude, Ciato, Elfboy, MEEPLE, Pyro, Eph, Nitori, Mage, Scar, Trancey, Rozalia, Excal, Neph, Djinn, Monkey, Super,
Whipping List-  Snow, Nama, Dhyer,  Soppy, Doma, Shale, Bard, Snowfire, Magic, Twil, Tonfa, Random, Sage, Andrew, CT,

Soul Nomad- xxi
DNRs- ii
Players- Monkey, Djinn, Gate, Snow, CK, Nama, Tal, Dhyer, OK, Super, Dude, Bard, Ciato, Pyro, Eph, Mage, Scar, Trancey, tonfa, Sage, Excal,
Whipping List- Alanna, Yoshi, Soppy, Doma, Shale, Elfboy, MEEPLE, Snowfire, Nitori, Magic, Twil, Random, Rozalia, Andrew, CT, Neph,

So in terms of players and the like, both are fairly even among people interested enough to vote in a topic about a year ago.  At a glance, I don't think anyone I polled has played either game since then except maybe CT picking up FE10?  Not sure.