Season 63 Rankings: Making the final cut

[Dhyerwolf]

Nitori at the least has started SN.

I'm really with OK here? The dragoon have different skillsets? Are Slice ((3): 72x3 = 216) and Charge ((3): 83*3 = 249) actually being seen as different skills?

For interest, even removing strengths/weaknesses, outlines of what they can basically do:

Danette:
60% Damage, 50% Ranged Damage for Counters, 20% Evade, 120% Speed
Buffs: Can Buff to 200% Speed (With Counters!), 44% Relative Evasion (Also nasty combo when evading and countering), or can buff to 1.1 PC HP Damage
Limit: Can add on an additional ~1.5 PC HP after 3-4 turns meaning that at that time she'll be doing 2 PC HP damage for several turns. Can her speed or evade buffing help her get a limit against some of the more brutal Heavies?

Galahad
Base Pdur: ~2.28 PC HP,
Buffs: Can combine buffs to get pdur up past 4.5 PC HP for several turns arguably while countering some of the time. A fun physical tank with who can take it to the next level.

Layna
~3 PC general durability including HP, defenses, and evasion, 85% Damage, 70% LR, with aspects of Danette's Speed and Damage Boosting Games. Danette on crack who can actually play in Godlike with that breakdown

Odie
95% Thunder Magic, 80% OPB Uncounterable Thunder Magic, ~75% PDur
Strategy versus Thunder Resisting Melee: Combining 25% Unavoidable (for Melee at least) MHP Damage+100% Poison+still throwing in counters

Vitali
2 PC MDur, 85% Pdur
If Vitali lives 3-4 turns, he will gain access to 4 turns of full healing that also basically lets him near null magic and boosts his Pdur
To get the 3-4 turns, he has to rely on a shot of normal full healing, counters and a defensive buff
Fun Light whose strategy is to try to outlast damage long enough to get a wicked healing+attack game going

Of course, throw in typing and they all become even more complex
Danette's Slight Weakness to Mages means that she has someone to try to use that evasion on
Galahad cuts a lot of physical damage types even further, making his physical tanking more absurd. Runs screaming from magic though!
Okay, Layna just basically stays badass
Odie gets even nastier against melee fighters, his Pdur against them ranging from about 1.05 PCPdur to 1.2 PDur...the damage 1.3 PC HP on average, meaning that Thunder halving means a full match instead of him auto blowing them to kingdom come. However, the rare ranged fighters now ruin his day
Vitali is in slightly more peril during physicals, but considering that sometimes he only had to last 2 turns and could full heal on one, this makes him quirker. Eats mages even more!

I dunno, these don't seem boring at all to me. Sure, they attack. They also buff, healer smash, and have unique typings that really no one else in the DL has. You have a range from very competitive Light to passable slugger Godlike. Most of them have some killer stat that stands out (Damage, Durability of all Sorts, Speed...etc). While I don't really want to say draw parallels to FE fighters, how are say...Marcia, Kieran, Sothe, and Sanaki more interesting?

[Hunter Sopko]

Since it's come up, here's some data for these two games.  Dated about one year ago.

Fire Emblem- xxii
Players- alanna, Gate, CK, Tal, OK, YOSHIKEEEEEN, Dude, Ciato, Elfboy, MEEPLE, Pyro, Eph, Nitori, Mage, Scar, Trancey, Rozalia, Excal, Neph, Djinn, Monkey, Super,
Whipping List-  Snow, Nama, Dhyer,  Soppy, Doma, Shale, Bard, Snowfire, Magic, Twil, Tonfa, Random, Sage, Andrew, CT,

You don't know me very well, do you?

You have about as much chance of getting me to play BtB again.

EDIT: More relevantly as well, putting these lists in context might help. Are you trying to show people interested enough in the DL to vote on them for ranking, or people interested enough to play them?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm counting stuff, which means from here on, please let me know of any edits you make, either in a new post or on IRC or whatever. Not doing this = I miss your edits, etc.

[superaielman]

CT hasn't played SN.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Are people still trying to allow SN characters to switch rows midbattle or did we get rid of that nonesense?

Just got back from a trip to see this discussion. Crazy. I really don't get what people are so weirded out about here? I think I was the only non-OK person to propose any unusual ideas about how SN could be viewed, but I have long since adopted Dhyer's view of the cast. And no one's proposing that we even rank the interp problems like Revya?

I don't get the arguments that the cast is 'uninteresting' when we're ranking yet another Fire Emblem... >.>;; Hell, I would say that SN is a better rank than FE10 on the basis that at least SN has a true speed stat.

[Cmdr_King]

You don't know me very well, do you?

You have about as much chance of getting me to play BtB again.

EDIT: More relevantly as well, putting these lists in context might help. Are you trying to show people interested enough in the DL to vote on them for ranking, or people interested enough to play them?

'whipping list' was just how I denoted non-players in my notes.  See also how some people's names are weird.

This list was from last year's playership drive, so basically it's 37 (I believe) people who took the time to rate how interested they were in playing a given game.  But since we were discussing how many players each had and who had played them, I just put out that data rather than the other data I took.  It's not a complete list of everyone in the DL, but it's a good percentage of them.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm counting stuff, which means from here on, please let me know of any edits you make, either in a new post or on IRC or whatever. Not doing this = I miss your edits, etc.

How long does this topic stay open?

If it just suddenly closes today, I'd at least like to hear from some of the nay-sayers earlier in the topic. Just to see if they've read/heard the arguments presented and if they still aren't convinced, that's fine. But I'd like to know that SN isn't getting discarded just because a few people who haven't played the game decided to make a snap judgment.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'd assume a week from the time it was created, so in ~4 days.

[superaielman]

Sorry, forgot to list that. The topic closes around the time we normally update the site, so 3.5-4 days

[superaielman]

If it just suddenly closes today, I'd at least like to hear from some of the nay-sayers earlier in the topic. Just to see if they've read/heard the arguments presented and if they still aren't convinced, that's fine. But I'd like to know that SN isn't getting discarded just because a few people who haven't played the game decided to make a snap judgment.

People who voted no on SN: 3 played, 4 haven't
People who voted yes on SN: 6 played, 3 haven't

Uh... huh.  Looks like a pretty even mix on people who said no.

[Pyro]

The games this time:

Fire Emblem 10
1. Played it, loved it, had Marcia's babies.
2. Rank it for sure.
3. Fire Emblem 10 has playership, enthusiasm, and easily the most extreme FEers we have even considered ranking. As well as the standard cast of interesting humans.

Soul Nomad
1. Played it, enjoyed it, Cried because we can't rank Gig.
2. Rank it.
3. Dhyer has convinced me that ranking Soul Nomad isn't that bad. It's a fun cast although I am worried a little bit about the general draw power.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Since I am bored, this is why we should rank Kieran.

1. Oscar is ranked and they are currently unable to fulfill their rivalry.
2. He was promoted to VICE-COMMANDER in FE10! He is totally a big deal in the Crimean knights.
3. He is very memorable due to his ridiculous personality and bouncing off of Marcia and Oscar well.
4. His art is pretty awesomely crazy looking in FE10. http://www.serenesforest.net/media/fe10illust/e/kieran_en.png, http://www.serenesforest.net/media/fe9illust/m/kieran.jpg
5. He is for realz an unpromoted axe Cavalier!
6. Really now, who can argue with an axe to the face?
7. He's a way better rank than Forde, goddammit.
8. He's Desmond but less horny.

Yeaaahh. Irrefutable evidence.

[074]

Fire Emblem 10:

Have not played.
Abstain on rank

Why: It's been described such that it at least has active skills on some characters--something no other FE seems to be able to boast, but I haven't played it, and have no Wii, so I can't claim an opinion

Abstain on all.


Soul Nomad

Played it, loved it.  Need to play it again at some point.  And maybe tackle Demon Path.
Yes, rank it.

Why: Dhyer kind of spells it out.  Characters have enough variability to them that they'd be interesting enough in a duel to me.  ...especially compared to a lot of FE duellers I can think of in Middle and Light.

Rank: Danette, Vitali, Galahad, Odie, Pinot(Joke Light), Agrippa, Juno, Grunzford, Tricia, Endorph, Layna, Reyva, Raksha
DNR: Demon Path PCs, Feinne, and the Normal Path final boss.

EDIT: Dhyer's topic sold me on a non-absorption form for Reyva, and the following posts convinced me to let Raksha in.

[Niu]

SN

YES
YES

Rank all normal path PCs and human size boss,  I shall vote yes on Levin.

EDIT: I change my mind. I shall support none Feinne world eaters on all account.
Only support Feinne if using her demon path form. If not, abstain.

The plot fusion final boss in the normal game can die.





Also yes to Thorndyke and Shauna as demon path PCs.

[Magic Fanatic]

The games this time:

Fire Emblem 10

1. No

2. No

3. I'm pretty sure we have about three games worth of characters already with the same moves, just with slightly different stats.  No point in making that four.


Soul Nomad

1. No

2. Yes

3. The system seems interesting, and if I could watch what kind of translation it makes into the DL, it may interest me enough to spend some of my limited budget on it to buy it, rather than just watching someone else play it and not quite being able to wrap my head about it.

[Talaysen]

The games this time:

Fire Emblem 10

1. No

2. No

3. I'm pretty sure we have about three games worth of characters already with the same moves, just with slightly different stats.  No point in making that four.

Fire Emblem 10:

Have not played.
Abstain on rank

Why: It's been described such that it at least has active skills on some characters--something no other FE seems to be able to boast, but I haven't played it, and have no Wii, so I can't claim an opinion

Abstain on all.

Just sayin'.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Dhyer sold me and I changed my mind (as frustrated as I am with certain other people in the topic). I support a small, controlled rank of the game. Danette, Levin, Odie, Juno, Grunzford, Thuris, Rashka are who I will yes. No to everyone else. Layna is an unmemorable PC, the angels barely have plot, can't really drum up excitement about Tricia or Vitali, and hell no to Gestahl who has less plot than fake Gestahl.

Also editted in a no for Dheggy.

[OblivionKnight]

Dhyer sold me and I changed my mind (as frustrated as I am with certain other people in the topic). I support a small, controlled rank of the game. Danette, Levin, Odie, Juno, Grunzford, Thuris, Rashka are who I will yes. No to everyone else. Layna is an unmemorable PC, the angels barely have plot, can't really drum up excitement about Tricia or Vitali, and hell no to Gestahl who has less plot than fake Gestahl.

Also editted in a no for Dheggy.

;_;

Sorry if I made you mad!

[VySaika]

FE10
Played it.
Rank it.

Soul Nomad
Played it.
Rank it. Monkey convinced me awhile ago it was just fine of a DL idea.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm in a generous mood.

Switching to abstain on Soul Nomad; you players can figure that one out. Keeping a "no" vote on Agrippa, Endorph, and Gestahl, though - blame certain other people~

Also switching to yes on Kieran.

[OblivionKnight]

I'm in a generous mood.

Switching to abstain on Soul Nomad; you players can figure that one out. Keeping a "no" vote on Agrippa, Endorph, and Gestahl, though - blame certain other people~

Also switching to yes on Kieran.

Hugs~

[Luther Lansfeld]

SN players:

Are the arguments against ranking Rashka plot-based or gameplay-based? Elfboy mentioned there was a boss that was siginficantly better/different in Demon Path but I didn't think it was him.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Okay, SN players, I want to see a discussion of the following as ranking ideas:

-Layna
-Tricia
-Vitali

As it stands these characters are not uniformly supported, and whether they get ranked or not technically depends on the votes of the folks who wanted to see the game ranked but abstained on individuals (this is Andy, Gate, Lance, Magic, and Pyro). If those people could listen to arguments made by SN players on those characters and weigh in that'd make me feel better.

[superaielman]

Layna's an Athos case- she joins late and is pretty damn good in the DL. 

Vitali has a ton of dialog/plot and Tricia has a fair bit. They're unique enough in the DL (Though neither are likely more than borderline middles), so don't see a reason to specifically oppose them. It isn't like we couldn't use good lights.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Vitali is a lot like OB cleric; will very rarely use his attack command in game if ever, and is substantially different in the DL than he in-game, which is why I voted no on him. He has a lot of plot, though, so you could argue him on that premise.

Tricia I think just poorly translates to the DL and is less plot-important. I could be argued yes here.

Layna on the other hand bothers me; maybe it's because I literally never used her and never saw a reason to, but she comes absurdly late when everything is already nicely set up. Maybe it is just my love for order or something. The character itself is relatively minor in plot IIRC, although she is around a bit? I can't recall; I don't find her memorable in the slightest.