Register

Author Topic: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)  (Read 27798 times)

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2011, 09:40:58 PM »
It is mostly just I don't respect bosses that only have damage that doesn't really kill outright in a game where you have initiative healing.  Considering you have Dragon Ryu and Puka soaking damage the only people truely threatened are Nina and Deis.

Of course mileage varies between me who never runs from encounters and you who have done it as a LLG >_>

Edit - Thinking more about Second Wind, I totally get where you are coming from, I do kind of talk about it with regards to Jade, but yeah I just don't think it is enough.  It is used way more than it should.  Sara not having it is a nice touch, but nearly every other boss uses it.  If it was used about a third of the time I think it would have a much stronger impact.

That said I did think of something that uses the exact same mechanic and does it far worse.  Ultimecia's form chaining with dialogue is completely and totally obscene and really annoying.  Just straight up frustrating as a player.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:21:23 PM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 03:28:51 AM »
Dragon Ryu doesn't sponge magic damage (no mdef or hp boost), and you lack initiative MT healing. I actually think Jade's ability to wear you down with Chill and rain is more dangerous than BoltX, though the latter certainly is kinda eye-opening and rude. Zog... does depend how much he uses Char and Gale, though, since his backup moves kinda suck.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 08:39:03 AM »
Jade gets the job done with Chill and Rain, you don't have full healing, but you (probably? I don't think you do for Zog) have CuraX which is 250 MT Healing, it isn't enough to full heal, but one every couple of turns but it is enough to bump you up enough that the fight is very manageable at least on paper.  It HAS been like a decade since I have played, most of this is just on paper here.  End game Nina has enough for some 15 shots of this, drop one every 2 turns and you are going for 30 turns.  Halve that to get through the dungeon (generous) and I think that is still enough time to take down Jade.  Especially if you have done any hunting for White Antlers for AP restoration.

Ryu doesn't have Puka level damage, but he tanks well enough that most of these last few bosses damage is 3HKO territory, so outside of ID or BoltX he isn't in much danger.

ANYWAY I am just working on paper and I do level more than you do on average in these games, so my memories are old and likely fairly different.  Mostly just trying to justify my stance, not prove you wrong because you ARE right.

Will edit in a post.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 08:40:35 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Dhyerwolf

  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 08:42:12 AM »
I don't know what level Nina gets CuraX, but...I was about level 29 with her against Jade. Yeaaaaah. I could imagine that level wise it would be beyond that.
...into the nightfall.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 09:38:03 AM »
Um okay I won't edit in something.  Meeple lists Nina in the stat topic as level 46 so no idea what the go there is.  I am pretty sure I had CuraX on her, but again I level a lot in games and I played this a long time ago when I was even more prone to do so.  She learns it at level 37.  It is worth noting that Nina levels very fast.  She and Deis are in the 40s where everyone else is low to mid 30s in the stat topic.   No idea what the go here is.

POST TIEM


Blue Mercenary - No Image, why is this even on Suikosource?

Bob

Okay so this is a pretty sweet outfit.  I am not sure how anyone can get close tho this.  I can't really talk about the shoes, but pants are amazing.  Topless and ripped I guess if you have it then you should flaunt it.  Does Suikoden have Jamaica?  I don't even know, but Bob has a pretty awesome Rasta look going for him.  I just can't knock it, I am honestly a fan of the Rastafari movement after all.  It is a bit out there at times, but it really has its heart in the right spot.  The dreadlocks just totally work here.  They are pretty feral in reality, but if you work on it they can look awesome.  But oh what is this, Bob has two pieces art to discuss here.

Werewolf Bob looks exactly the same as human Bob right down to the dreadlocks and THAT my friends is completely and totally awesome.  We have a Rasta werewolf rocking crazy dreads, crazy awesome tasseled vest and those shoes.  The pants are still amazing.  There isn't really much to say but Bob beats out all other Suikoden 2 characters on a lines to awesomeness ratio.  He says next to nothing and then just rocks your face like Teen Wolf starring a young Bob Marley instead of Michael J Fox.

Slide your rump.  Just for a minute let's all do the bump, bump, bump.


Bolgan

Okay Bolgan, I can respect that you like are comfortable with your body, that is cool.  I can get behind that.  Big dudges don't really need to be massively ashamed.  Man I can even get why you shave with wearing those ill advised suspenders.  I mean don't get me wrong dude, it is creepy as fuck.  Couldn't you just like do the chest hair?  You go way beyond that and shave your under arms as well.  And your legs as well.  Just what the hell man.  But whatever, a man will go a long way for his poor choices in fashion which just happen to be suspenders that are actually chains to keep up his skirt.  Okay I can deal with that.  Even the bracelet things that are pushing this a little overly close to slave role play territory.  I will give you that, it is okay if that is your thing.  I am a pretty open dude, I can accept that people are into this kind of thing.  I mean I can even accept that this skirt is a bit on the short size for a guy as big as you.  That is cool, whatever man, easy access when you have to do your thing.  That is fine, I know how it is you just got to be prepped and ready in a heartbeat when you are into this slave gig openly in your every day life.  You never know when it might be time to find a wall to assume the position against and bear down ready for the punishment you love.  All that aside I can deal with.  But a cyan skirt with brown shoes?  You sir are a fucking monster.

Bonaparte - No image

Bora Atkins - No image

Boris Wizen

Okay I know we aren't up to R yet, but I have to say, this family set the standard for good dress in Suikoden.  The son does not disappoint.  Ignore the fact that it is a 6 foot tall dog guy.  Those boots are amazing.  Not Fuck Me Pumps or some other fucked up shit, those are just awesome awesome riding boots.  With matching green trousers tucked in the tops and Boris rocking an awesomely well fit for comfort green jacket.  This is how you dress people, none of this colour vomit all over the place shit.  Simple consistent colours.  Black and Green topped off nearly perfectly with the pale blue kerchief at the neck.  A wonderful collar, worn and buttoned high.  Fantastic white hemming on the collor and where the coat joins and on the cuff with and all on black trim.  Just fantastic, really really great.  Even the rolled back cuffs are great stuff.  It is simplicity done nearly to perfection.  I love this outfit.  The whole dog's head thing just is completely weird looking, it is like a really well done photoshop.  Great fashion regardless.  10/10 would look at it again.  The real crime here is that it is so hard to actually see this character in game.

Borus Redrum

Check me out, I am a knight dude.  I think I have already covered the Zexan Knight armour before and how well it works, if I haven't I will do it another time for someone who is infinitely less mockable than Borus and his stupid face and his even more stupid hair.  Seriously dude, your body is facing stage left, your head is pointing stage right and you are looking out the corner of your eye to stage left.  Just turn your head.  You will look twice as smart, mostly because you will no longer resemble a slow child trying to look inside his own ear.  Also you are way to serious and your eyebrows constantly being raised make me want to burn down a village, kill children and lie about it.  Fucking douchebag.  Also what the fuck is up with that goddamned hair dude.  You must have to gel that shit like nobodies business and then it looks like you are trying to make it looks like your hair is a tide coming in.  It comes up over from the back and then comes down to cover your eyes in an emo fringe, but is gelled back up to a curl sweeping over your right eye.  Going back to where it coms up and over on your left hand side though you have it parted slightly and then have the bits thare aren't swooping over into your proto emo fringe jut outwardly at all angles.  Then the back of your stupid haircut is all swept back.

Oh alright I just realised why you are standing and looking in that weird way.  Because the left hand side of that hair cut must look fucking amazingly stupid with all that hair combed over the front with all that stuff from the right hand side all combed back.  God you are such an amazingly douchey poser Borus.  Go back to your stylist, give him another blowjob WITHOUT using teeth this time and maybe you will get away with something as tame and stupid as Leo.

NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2011, 02:18:44 PM »
Boz Wilde

Okay clothign wise there isn't much to talk about here, this is a pretty classic standard sort of look.  I don't know why there is purple in there, but otherwise this outfit works.  Boz has so many other things to talk about.  First of all is the amazing haircut.  It is punk at the front and party at the back.  Some kind of a cross between a mohawke and a mullet.  This is quite possibly the most Japan stuck in the 80s thing ever, the only thing that could make it more so is if Boz had a leather jacket with rivets in it.  The hair is amazing and words cannot really sufficiently explain the phenomenon that is Boz' hair.  The next thing we need to ntoe is that Boz is built like a complete and total tank.  His hair is deceptive with his height, but look at the width of those sholdres or just compare how wide aprat those legs are splayed.  Did you notice it?  Boz is about half as wide as he is tall.  Now assuming Boz is a short man that is still pretty damned amazing breadth.  It is no real wonder Boz got so far in the military.  He is practically a portable wall.

In praise of Boz though I have to note that he shares a last name with the great Oscar, there is no way that this is by chance.  Clearly Boz is some kind of physical embodiment of all the amazing manliness that Oscar Wilde was imbued with.

Brandeau

Whoops, I am sorry, I accidentally found an Alice Cooper fan art piece.  Oh?  This is an actual Suikoden character?  What was he from?  Suikoden 4?  Oh okay.  He has the Rune of Punishment.  Well I guess that is fitting enough for Alice Cooper.  For an outfit?  Well yeah Alice Cooper is fucking awesome, so if you have that skiny wirey dude look then you can totally rock it.  A loose coat is sthe way to do it.  Nice boots and well fitting trousers are definitely the way to round it out.  The unlaced tops on the trousers also works great for it.  Sword at your side and fist raised in the air mid head bang is pretty awesome.  It is like he has just sung the opening to "Feed My Frankenstein" which is just awesome.

He isn't evil, he's just good looking.

Branky

Next contest in the boy or girl competition.  Branky is apparently male, but the purple eyelid that screams eyeshadow and the bottom of the puppet looking like a dress is just totally throwing.  As is the pierced ear and the choker.  I am not entirely sure it is actually just a wolf puppet or the possiblity that Mel's psyche so fucked up that her puppet is a cross dressing furry.

Brec

NOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I CAN'T UNSEE IT.  WHAT THE FUCK WHAT THE FUCK WHAT THE WHY IS THIS THERE GODDAMMIT SUIKODEN 4.  Okay.  Okay keep it together.  The outfit.  We can talk about the outfit.  He needs new shoes.  His toes poke through each one.  His pants are patched the schweinhund.  His shirt also badly needs replacing since it isn't covering all of his torso and we can see his snail trail.  ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff okay the beard needs trimming as well, he looks after it enough to have gathered it into individual parts with beads.  The red woolen cap is kind of there.  Why is he wearing leanther wrist guards.

Okay so Suikoden 4 full on has a dude with both his hands down his pants having a fiddle.  I didn't even remember this character existed.  I wish I didn't know it existed now.  Because I have to share the joys of this lets cover how he joins the party.
How to Recruit: Joins with Jango.

Oh okay that isn't so bad.  Lets check with Jango.

How to Recruit: After naming your army and ship and after acquiring 51 Stars of Destiny, return to your room.

Okay so the creepy pirate dude who has art of him having a wank is just waiting for Lazlo in his room.  Lazlo the one that looks like a teen prostitute (more on that later).  Man this got really dark really quick.  I was hoping to do these things for a laugh.  Then I am confronted with things like this.  I kind of just want to curl up into a ball and die right about now.

Bright

He is naked.  Zebra print naked dragons are so last season.

Brown - No image

Busk - No image, but they have 3 paragraphs on him over at Suikosource.

Butz - No image

Byakuren

Is also naked.  Alright not really something that I can talk about the fashion for, but I really like this character design.  The patterns on the snake are pretty neat.  Completely and totally unable to happen naturally forming of course, but neat nevertheless.

One thing that thoroughly confuses me about this thing though.  It is a White Snake.  It has a horn which I wasn't aware that snakes could have.  Ignoring that though, I don't understand the fins or those huge feelers, they must get in the way.  If they are there in the way all the time then how exactly is Byakuren meant to slide it in?

Just strage and confusing.  Also very naked.

That is B done!  Two letters done in a month!  At this rate it will only take me another year to do this whole thing.  I really probably should do these more often if I want to finish them.  I do want to do serious articles with some more frequency, doing these constantly feels like a cop out, but such is life.

Some filler jokes and rambling in here just to make the 1000 words, but didn't want to start C in this post.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 02:54:29 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »
True story, I reset my game because I thought it was glitched when I got to Mote.

Sierra

  • N I G H T M A R E E Y E S
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5135
  • Go get dead, angel face
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2011, 08:49:24 PM »
At $5 an installment it can be forgiven for a fair bit I find personally.

Edit - Glad someone else has given it a look though.

Idly noting for anyone remotely interested that it is $2.50 a piece on Steam right now. So yeah.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2011, 02:46:55 AM »
Caesar Silverburg

Why good sir you do look like a a mix between a young man about to go hit the club trying to pick up and a guerilla commander.  The colour choices are a bit all over the places with the greens, the red with the whit and black, but it works, they are nice earth tones and everything is broken up so it is in its own space rather than being a jumbled mess.  I don't necessarilly dig the colour scheme or the outfit in general, but it is one that works pretty well for the you good sir.

I suppose I should clarify that first sentence a bit.  The jeans and the open jacket with the styled hair absolutely screams younger gentleman on the prowl.  especially with the tope of the shirt looking like a dress shirt and the bottom like the tails of an untucked dress shirt.  It is a look that works.  The Guerilla Commander thing is the jacket again.  It is big, well cut and solid looking.  The jeans also play into this a bit, but the combat boots are the real thing that set it off.  The shirt also plays into it, the bottoms of it and the horizontal striping along the top with how loose it is makes it resemble a kevlar vest.  It is a fairly evocative outfit.

I think it really works for Caesar's place in the story and his age.  Maybe not the character super well, but the age and the kind of war he fights in it is pretty good.  So overall I approve I guess.

Camille

That is just terrible.  A black... one piece top?  Fuck I don't even know what to call this horrible stripper shit, I am man of class and leisure.  I am gladit tightly hugs your crotch and appears to barely be thick enough to cover you properly.  I am scared to even ask if that think has a closed seam down the sides or if it is just a hoop of cloth with a hole for your neck.  Anyway, I am glad the need to go into battle with some semblance of protection.  You have covered your vulnerable knees, shoulers and hands quite well.  You appear to go to the same hair stylist as Apple in her early years.  You chose poorly.  There is something else we really need to get out of the way up front.  Purple gloves are a big no.  Especially with gold trim or bronze or whatever the fuck that is meant to be.  You are wearing black and red.  Purple should not been in the equation here.  Also what the fuck s with the red ribbon everywhere.  You don't need it as a belt, that top isn't going to fall off any time soon unless the double sided tape you are clearly using wears out.  If that happens then that belt isn't going to do you any damned good.  Then again, I guess that is probably the point.  The armour plated heels adds to the warrior prostitute look you have going.  As is the garter on your left leg.  I really wish that wasn't there, now I have to talk about how stupid it is.  Actually I don't think I will.  Your outfit is stupid.  Your haircut is even worse and that smug look in your face means you need to be dumped headfirst down a well.  Also what the fuck is with that gold choker?  Get the fuck out of my sight.

Camus

What the shit did I just finish telling that last thing?  You are wearing black and red.  Don't bring purple into this.  Okay, ignoring the purple cape (which should be a red to match with some black trime and an emblem.  Probably a few inches longer as well.) the rest of the outfit is fairly workable.  Shoulderpads are a bit much (are those actually pauldrons on a dress uniform?), but otherwise, it is a fairly decent military dress uniform.  I don't envy the poor made that has to iron that shirt, assuming those pleats are intentional not just an ironing failure.  I like the boots, I like the gloves, the extra stuff worn over the shirt are a bit much but otherwise it works.  Fix up the cloak and drop the pauldrons and you almost havea nice outfit there.  You do have quite the striking pose there so extra mark fors for effort, but we aren't really doing a photo shoot here.

Carrie

Well okay, I have no idea who you are.  Suikoden Tactics characters are at least subdued.  They don't stand out but they aren't horrible.  Nice functional outfit you have there.  The messenger bag works really well for you, I would keep it.  You have bangs but aren't worth of linking to the song, we save that for the good ones.  I am not sure if it is a trick of the scan of the artwork or not but the blending of the purples and blue on this outfit is actually pretty awesome so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this.  I like it.  It is simple but functional outfit, the world needs more of that.   Sensible shoes as well, I can respect that.  Keep it up whoever the hell you are.

Oh you are from Suikoden 4 as well?  Wow, I really have not got a clue who you are.

Cathari

Um you wearth a cloak pretty well?  Nice boots as well.  Your gun is sticking out though so that kind of defeats the point of hiding it under a huge cloak.

I am a bit freaked out here that you can't see anything underneath the cloak other than the shoes.  I can't help but think that she is running around naked underneath it just so that she can flash unsuspecting old men.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:08:02 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2011, 06:14:43 AM »
Big post been incoming.  Was bigger than I expected it to be.  This is the one that puts me over the month long mark and yeah a few days after.  Was fun.  Will keep doing stuff since I have Suikoden to finish up which will take forever, but still.  Here is a thing.



Enemy AI, Why I stopped worrying and learned to love the RNG

Constructing a well made piece of AI either for an enemy or for uncontrolled party members has got to be a daunting prospect.  It is certainly a piece of scripting well beyond my meager skills in that area.  So as is a bit of a theme here, how does it effect the player?  Lets talk about a few basic kinds of AI.  Dumb party AI, smart party AI, stupid to average enemy AI and smart enemy AI.  Also we might touch on just straight up Randomised enemy turns.

Dopey Party AI

Not particularly well constructed party AI is very frustrating for players.  The definitive example that floats around seems to be Dragon Quest 4, it was the last game in the series to play with completely uncontrollable party members.  You were in control of whoever the main character for a given chapter was and when everyone was in the party the AI would take over everyone but the lead for you.  Now following on a series that originally was a single player character controlled game it makes a fair bit of sense, to a modern player it is a fairly dramatic shift from the norm though.  Some modern games have done this also, Persona 3 for example which will come up in the next example, but Dragon Quest 4 is going to be our shining example of why bad party member AI can make for incredibly frustrating gameplay (I am sure I will win an award for stating the patently obvious with this paragraph).  Some games have barely competent AI that will just scrape by like Star Ocean 2, where it can cast attack spells over and over no problem but couldn't time a healing spell to saves itself and has no qualms whatsoever about spamming elements that the enemies absorb.  That is dumb, but at least it is competent enough to get by.  Dragon Quest 4 makes it a habit to have your healer spend MP trying to cast Instant Death spells against the final boss.  The rift between semi competent AI and terrible AI is astounding there.  It really doesn't help that one is able to be fine tuned (You can manually turn off the ability to fast Fire spells in the Fire dungeon in Star Ocean), Dragon Quest 4 is bad enough to the point where the only way people really seem to have had a truely positive play through of the game is if they owned a Game Genie and could put in the code to control the whole party (or they played it on an emulator).  I know first hand that it is more than possible to play through games on the caliber of Star Ocean 2 without fussing with the AI that much to have to control their every action.  My understanding is that the way to play the original was to pretty much not trust the AI to do much of anything useful and if it did something smart then it was a bonus.  It wasn't that it was completely random.  It was just that it was dumb as a sack of bricks and you have so little say over what to do.  This unsuprisingly makes for a pretty terrible play experience.  It isn't to say the original was an unplayable mess that no one liked, just that given control of the characters directly in a Turn Based game massively improved it to the point where you can kind of understand why the series is such a long standing staple of the genre.  So yeah, pro tip: If your game is turn based and you have written an imcompetent AI then make it optional.  You will alienate less people.  This is your obvious statement of the day.

That isn't to say there isn't a place for party AI that is dumb.  As long as it is entirely optional then it honestly isn't a problem.  Suikoden has amazingly terrible AI that all it does is basic attacks.  It doesn't even prioritise who attacks what particularly well (there is some of that though), but auto-battle there is a godsend when going through old areas or just plain in areas that are stupidly easy like Suikoden games tend to be at times.  So feel free to keep writing basic dumb scripting, just apply it where it is useful.

Another one that springs to mind with varying success is one we will touch on more with enemy AI, but there is even optional modes for some characters where you forfeit control of the character to the whims of the Random number generator.  Final Fantasy 6 is the one that comes to mind most prominently, of which there is three character choices that have the player forfeit control of the character and leaves actions squarely in the hands of weighted randomised actions.  It is certainly not a method I personally prefer, but it is in game with varying degrees of success from terrible to middling to quite potentially game breaking (from my understanding Umaro, Mog's Dances and then the top end broken that is Gau's Rage options in that order).  Not really an option that I personally like to use (much like self inflicted Berserk in some games), but it is an interesting trade off of power vs control that is nice to see experimented with.  I can't really say much on the success of it, since it is so varied in game.  It is a path I tend not to take when offered, I like control.  An interesting option regardless.

Smart Party AI - Vote 1 for 2012

There has actually been a few noteworthy games to come out in the last 5 years that use AI controlled party members, Persona 3 is definitely the first one that comes to mind as being fairly noteworthy for it.  You have some degree of control over what sorts of things the characters will try to do and they seem to generally actually stick to it.  They will capitalise on elemental weakness, which is an important element of the battle system as it ties up the enemy turns and exposes their weak point so that you can dispatch them easilly.  It isn't always perfect, there is times where they should use Multiple Target weakness spells to tie up more than one enemy that they do not, but generally they are reliable enough to get you through the game.  The main is still sort of dragging them through the game, but you can at least rely on them a pinch to not try status on status immune targets for example.  On the third iteration of the game in as many years they let the player control the party members and it made the game far easier.  I haven't heard as strong a response from Persona 3 Portable as the other two releases, but that is what you are going to get with three releases of the same game in three years.  I can't say first hand whether it improves the game exceptionally, but I know I did read complaints that it made the game way easier (shock), but this is also from people that played each release of the game that came out in three years, so I do question the rigor of taking statements like that at face value.  Regardless, so you can still make a game these days with uncontrolled party members and get away with it.  Persona 3 is something of a cult game, generally well accepted by wider audiences and it goes completely counter to what I say above about bad AI.  I honestly can't tell you what else Persona 3 brought to the table that made it so acceptable, I wasn't part of that wider audience that it appealed to (because I hate fun as discussed previously).  Regardless of what it brought to the table though, the AI controlled party members in a Turn Based game clearly wasn't a complete and total turn off for everyone and I understand that it isn't a complete and total abject failure. 

Another game that it has come up in is lately is of course Final Fantasy 13, the game that not only has AI controlled party members, but lets the player have the game automatically select attack options for them on the one character they do control.  The auto-select and team mates will automatically target weakness as well.  If you set the AI characters to status moves they will use only the ones that the enemy is vulnerable to or at least stop trying once they are immune.  That leaves it so the player only is required to interfere during a critical moment or to change paradigm.  Otherwise player involvment is just rubber stamping whatever the best attack is.  Press X to let the AI win this war for you.  I will let up on Final Fantasy 13 one day, but for now it is a shining example of well done AI pushing the boundaries past the point that I consider acceptable.  The game is real time and the AI certainly helps keep the flow of battle nice and consistent, but it is not a net positive effect on the game.  That such a hands off approach is not only a good idea, but already optimal irks me as to why this is even a game.  It is a sequence of boring combat sequences chained together with boring combat sequences with even less interaction, in that you can't skip the alleged gameplay sequences like you can the plot ones.  I can't really fault the AI for this, it is will constructed and functions at a fairly high level of AI.  I certainly do blame the design choices that lead to such an AI system being required to keep the game flowing at the already amazingly slow snails pace that it does (see statements about how it gets good at Chapter 10 of 13).  So smart AI isn't always goign to make an action based system amazing.  It is entirely at the whims of the rest of the gameplay. 

So there are times where a good strong AI can make or break a game, but I would definitely say with some confidence that good AI isn't going to save a game.  This puts it in something of direct competition with some of the polish I was talking about in World Building.  World Building is far from integral to making a good game, but it can save a bad game from the trash heap of obscurity.  Having a strong AI though, if it is necessary is something that you absolutely must invest a great deal of time into.  I don't think it is necessarilly a bad thing to create a system that is entirely reliant on the AI being in direct control of characters, but it is definitely a restriction in design that I wouldn't want to put a great deal of confidence into for an untested programmer or designer.  So just something I would hope that companies are aware of, just how much this effects player experience in the game.  This is yet another situation where Persona 3 kind of breaks all my rules though.  It is a system that quite clearly does not need the party AI.  It is something that I would argue would be vastly improved without it, but in spite of this it apparently works quite well for enough people to make it the successful game that it is.  To be honest I am still absolutely in awe of it and the whole phenomenon.

One interesting little option that is kind of rare but neat is a smart (Or at least competent) AI that is entirely optional.  The game that springs to mind the most here is Final Fantasy Tactics.  Now I know long time players will have some horror stories where it does the dumbest thing on the planet, it is after all the enemy AI functionality, but the fact of the matter is that it is competent enough to beat itself at its own game.  Final Fantasy Tactics has a complete enough AI system that there is challenges that have been done entirely utilising the AI system.  You utilise some generalised commands (heal, attack, that kind of thing) and the AI will buff itself and allies up, work as a team and is fully capable of beating most of the missions as far as I am aware (I think you have to manually move units onto specific square to open Sluice gates or something on a map?  My familiarity with it is limited).  It is a case where it doesn't really bring anything to the table, but it wasn't something custom created for the party either.  It is little more than a neat addition, but it is a fun option to have and one that I thought was noteworthy while on the topic.

Dumb enemy AI

Dumb enemy AI is fairly common, it works, it gets results, doesn't challenge players to an astounding degree.  It makes mistakes and is easier to write.  Most of the time you won't really notice it other than to go "Hahaha that was dumb let me put this pike up your anus now ok?".  The place where amazingly simple AI stands out the most to me is SRPGs.  Now this is far from the only example I will note here, but one that has a fair bit of play and is definitely in the limelight is Disgaea.  Enemies in this game are dumb as a sack of bricks.  They will group up so you can AoE them down like nobodies business.  They will all charge in and berserker rush you at a hold point to be crushed.  There is no long term planning, very little buffing once a target is in range.  All there is to it is KILL KILL KILL.  It is amazingly exploitable when you know what you are doing.  At a basic level though?  It is functional.  It gets the job done. The enemy doesn't just sit there and let you punch it in the face.  It is responsive and does something.  Dumb AI isn't necessarilly a game ender.  It can go a long way to making the game boring, certainly, but this is mostly about a level of difficulty when it comes to enemy AI.  It may give you moments of disdain from the players at times, but it isn't going to be hugely impacting on the experience for the player unless they were expecting the AI to be something amazing.  So protip, if your AI is dumb and all you have done was add ways for them to jump out of cover then you should be fine.  This again isn't really a flaw in having bad AI so much as marketting handling customer expectations, which is a huge part of the customer experience.  This might tie back into my preference for a game to be easy over a game being soul crushingly hard (Challenge is good, unreasonable challenge is bad), but generally speaking for me bad AI isn't completely detrimental to a play experience for me.  It may however just be the part of me that does enjoy the power fantasy in some games (see Grandia 2 article).

Another example of what I am going to lump into dumb AI is unresponsive, but highly scripted enemies.  Final Fantasy 6 is going to be my go to AI here since it has a big audience and a decent hacking community as well, so the knowledge of the scripting in this game is fairly indepth and easy to track down at a high level.  Enemies in this game are completely and totally unresponsive.  They will sit there and do their own thing unless explicity coded to counter things.  You can note this by things like the lack of offensive dispels and whatnot.  How much harder would Magimaster be if he would counter your Life 3 with a dispel?  Sure you could still beat him through many other methods, but it would keep you on your toes.  Same goes for almost everything in the game and Haste.  This is fine and perfectly functional, Final Fantasy 6 is balanced for it.  For newer players the game is still interesting and even difficult, for advanced players it opens up all kinds of interesting pathways of abusing the game to completely dismantle it.  It makes for a diverse set of options and is a big part in helping the longevity of the game.  It is a good way to put a deceptively complex enemy AI into a limited space.  At its clockwork it is dumb as a sack of rocks, but it works really well here.  I list it as dumb because it honestly is and it doesn't take a great deal of scratching beneath the surface to expose how simple it is at heart.  There is an effectiveness in its simplicity which has some added benefits as well, not only did it take up much less space, but it makes for a very malleable set of code.  Easy to implement on each enemy and allowing for greater diversity in enemy tactics.  On top of that it has certainly done no harm in helping to support the modding community that Final Fantasy 6 has.  Not necessarilly a revenue generating component on the last part, but it does help to keep the game relevant and is a small win for the brand.

So dumb AI seems to be good to me, at least for enemies.  It doesn't add a great deal to the game unless you have chosen a design model that fits for it, but enemy AI is certainly less a hindrance to game quality like it can be for allies.  For the majority of games it is certainly the more prominent one as well, so it is less impacting, but higher prevalence. 

Smart enemy AI

I suppose I should really take the time out to justify by what I mean by Smart and Dumb AI, especially for the enemies.  Since I went and praised Final Fantasy 6 for being stupid, I think it really deserves qualifying.  What I am looking for in the AI is not responding directly to moves the player has done, but responding to the environment or things that could be incoming.  It isn't Dumb as in it is bad.  It is just fixed in the way it handles situations.  That is something to not be daunted by.  Dumb simple solutions are often a good one.  Complex important things are prone to break more easilly.

Smart enemy AI is a bit more on the rare side, so I am going to be restricted a bit in this.  I will be reusing one I noted earlier in Finaly Fantasy Tactics.  The AI certainly isn't up to snuff here to compete directly with a human, enemies tend to be working with some kind of advantage (Normally positioning I would argue), but the enemies are quite capable of functioning as a unit, using buffs (I believe they do this as a priority even).  They will break your equipment if possible even if they could just directly attack you (net greater benefit of breaking a bow early over attacking an Archer directly for example).  They will heal and even revive party members with some modicum of intelligence.  There is always something left open for a player to exploit.  It is smart enough to stand up as a challenge and varied enough given Final Fantasy Tactic's class variety to keep what is basically the same level of competence in the AI different throughout the whole game.  This makes for a fairly interesting argument, the AI in Final Fantasy Tactics though.  Is it to smart for its own good?  I think it likes to hit a happy medium where for new players it is a challenge and on replays the variety it brings still keeps it fresh.  It takes a fairly experienced player with an analytical mind to really start to peel down the layers of the AI and just blatantly abuse it.  Chapter 1 might be a bit much for new players I would argue, the AI has more in its toolbox than a new player does and starts with all the normal advantages.  Get a player rolling with some skills and more to pick from than Attack, Tackle, Throw Stone and Potion and it picks up fairly fast.  Honestly this was the first example and the only one I thought of for a while and I think it is a pretty good balancing act that it plays.

The next example is one that is pretty close to my heart, I love this game.  It honestly has a fairly smart reactive AI when you dig into it.  Sadly it is also a fairly negative attribute all truth be told.  Baldur's Gate 2, it is a great game.  It is clunky these days with its approximation of the AD&D ruleset jammed into a real time environment and pausing.  The AI on the other hand is reactive.  It is chock full of scripted sequences it runs through first, but it does respond to the environment.  The classic scenario is the facepalm worthy Time Stop to pause time so they can cast a long spell uninterrupted, Gate to summon a demon.  Then after Time Stop has worn off the demon attacks them because they haven't protected themselves from evil.  The summoned Demon is the nearest target and the highest priority because it will completely rape the mage's face like a Sand demon through balsa wood.  Mages are really the only point that the AI gets this chance to shine since everyone else is mostly just responding to whoever shot them in the face or punching things.  That or just plain old pathfinding which none of the other games here really have had a chance to touch on, but something that needs to be able to be done reactively, therefore kind of inherently fits into what I have lumped together as Smart AI, but I wouldn't list it as the primary reason.  Also the pathfinding is more than terrible though, so lets not use that as an example.  The AI does fairly simple things like it will dispel illusion or protection spells if it has relevant dispel moves memorised, it will use Instant Death spells that automatically work on summons.  The down side is that it is about as far from perfect as you can get, it has big gaping holes that are open for abuse.  It is really telling I think that the mods that make the game challenging and most fun pretty much dump the AI and rely much more on hard scripting of do this move, then this move, counter this with this.  Just like Final Fantasy 6 did above.  These tend to be more polished than the original boss fights in the game.  Not necessarilly more fun to be honest, but they do give you a good challenge for the experienced player.  Do I think the smarter AI specifically helps the game?  Not necessarilly, it is part of the strange charm it has to it, but it doesn't make the game great.  It is other areas of the game that really tend to bring in the fans.  Honestly I do feel the game doesn't suffer overly much for having the big gaping holes in the AI, but at times it does feel like the AI is just spamming things at random.

You might note that the only games in this section are ones that have to handle not just responding to moves, but movement in an environment as well.  This honestly makes sense, the more you need to interact with the more likely you are going to have to write a responsive AI to deal with that, so it makes sense to build on more like it.  This isn't really praising or damning the usage of this.  It is just a question of the situation that you need to use it.  For most RPGs though when you are just working on the level of abstraction where you don't have an environment and just have 4 dudes in a row beating up on 6 enemies jumbled around the screen then you don't have to have a reactive AI, you can just do it based on hard counters or scripted sequences of attacks.  It is really a question of working with whatever tool best fits the scenario.  That is to say, in most cases enemy AI doesn't need this level of depth for an RPG.  Party AI differs greatly, it does need to be fairly complex if it is forced on you.  If it is entirely optional it can be as unresponsive as you want it to be, but it's usage will tend to be fairly marginalised if so.

Random turns, how do they work?

There is really one other way to handle enemy turns, you can just straight up have their turns be randomised.  You see this fairly commonly in early RPGs, but it still gets used these days.  Good example is the likes of Dragon Quest which I think of the ones I have played has leveraged it best in Dragon Quest 8.  I say this uses it best as this is a game where the randomised movesets actually work fairly well into forcing you to change your tactics.  The really notable enemies in the game have diverse skillsets cpaable of chipping away at you with multitarget damage or punish with strong single target if you are lapse at healing.  The best of the game even introduce Dispel which while a bit infuriating as a player, is certainly effective at forcing you to change tactics.  You don't know if you are going to have to rebuff next turn or not, so do you buff or don't you?  When your healer is one of your primary buffers as well there is some interesting choices that you have to make and unlike a scripted AI you do have to weigh up your options as to what is incoming next turn.  This works really well here.  It requires a carefully put together skillset to work, but in this case the implementation of it is entirely on the boss designer, rather than leaving some of it the hands of a scripter as well.  The overhead for implementation is even less than that of scripted AI.  It makes it easier to balance and places most of the onus on the design rather than later in the picture, which means it is something that can have been mapped out early in development, but thankfully it isn't exactly a basic design principle for the specific moveset, so as long as you aren't talking about scrapping randomised turns late in the project you are left with a fairly malleable combat system, can swap moves in and out and tweak them as desired, rather than having to remake a script just for a change of boss design.  It is the simplest of the models looked at here, but it is still to this day fairly effective.  I am glad it isn't used everywhere  like it was back in the day, but I am pleased to see people still utilising it.

Dragon Quest 8 though, what makes it work so well?  The things that I think work best in it that honestly it escalates.  Most of the game you don't have to deal with Dispels, then in the last quarter plenty of bosses have it, you have a balancing act between limited resources, rebuffing and the potential to deal with a spike in incoming damage higher than the average.  It is a mix of good skillset diversity with multiple turns that enemies get.  To offset double acting feeling cheap the game likes to throw you a bone and the enemies occasionally have a move in the repetoire that does nothing at all.  You always have a risk of higher than average damage, but if you take every turn assuming that the worst moves are used then you are going to run yourself out of resources fairly quickly.  It makes the game an interesting balancing act.  It also really does need to be emphasised that the game really does easy you into aspects of the battle system fairly smoothly.  That isn't to say that the game starts off easy, the first two bosses are probably the harshest because you have a small party and the only thing in your skillset is pretty much heal and attack.  The game doesn't hold back on the damage during these parts, but it also doesn't throw Tension building dispel maniacs at you the moment you get your hands on Angelo.  It is a well balanced fine line that I remember disliking at the end of the game when I played it, but upon reflection it is pretty well balanced line that it walks.  Not every boss spams dispels in the last quarter of the game.  The ones that don't tend to be notoriously easy.  It gives you a nice reflection on how far the system has come, a game that actually the frame of reference to have that kind of perspective is fairly rare.  I really do appreciate a chance to see randomised turns handled with as much care and precision as this.

That isn't to say randomised enemy turns is flawless, there is certainly plenty of ways you can improve it.  Weighted chances are always a good thing, Breath of Fire 1 does that, with certain moves being used at higher ratios than others, that goes a long way to helping players deal with the incoming damage, but still keeping them wary.  Keep your boss fights short though and there is a chance that they will just never see a specific move that you have at a low rate because of how dangerous it is.  Another fun thing to do is bring in some scripting and have multiple actions, but have each action only capable of pulling from a smaller pool of moves than all the ones you want to use in a fight.  It can help restrict the damage incoming or stop using specific moves together.  This can be really fun when there is some overlap in the movesets and with differing speeds that moves come out.  A small bit, but it helps mix it up.  There is still certainly ways you can completely and totally screw up randomised turns, screwing up your weightings or just having terrible movesets will go there.  So even though I don't have a "bad" example for this one, don't take it that this is my preferred method.  I think bad examples of this are not overly hard to find if you have a visit from RPGs of Christmas Past.  I really just wanted to highlight that this still happens and it is still worthy of a place in the market.

A conclusive statement of nothing.

So that covers a whole pile of stuff there.  I don't really think there is one way to do this stuff.  It is refreshing to see all these kinds of things done when used properly.  My personal preference does honestly trend to the fairly late 90s pairing of controlled party in a turn based system, so no real party AI there mixed with low fi scripted combat.  That is just my preference though, I do enjoy a well put together reactive AI sometimes as long as the game calls for it.  Well that is a lie, I do enjoy games with a reponsive AI that makes bad decisions all over the shop even more, but that is just where I get my enjoment from gaming.  For party AI, if I can't be in control of it, I am happier if it isn't spammy and stupid.  I don't need it to play the game flawlessly, I just need it to be competent at what it does so I don't have to micromanage it endlessly . Nothing frustrates me more than a game where you can't directly control all actions at the same time, but need to be constantly directing things.  Big offender here for me is Tales games on harder modes.  It is trying to be an action game, but you end up spending far to much time dicking around in menus for its own good.  Totally kills the flow if you aren't abusively good at the real time combat.

My personal tastes aside though, I think there is a lot out there in the genre that has promise.  When your base principles are still being effectively applied and competing with emerging new techniques there is a lot of room for growth.  So AI is one area that I actually look forward to seeing how it develops in the genre in the next few years.

I don't know how to end this article.  So this sentence will do.


Edit - This one took it out of me.  Taking the weekend off I think.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 04:42:38 PM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2011, 04:52:59 AM »
Cecile

Okay so I feel weird talking about the clothing of a little girl like this, but I can deal.  The knee socks and the tartan skirt are cute.  That isn't much of a secret that Cecile is on the adorable side of Suikoden fashion .  Other than the fact that she is begging to to lose a leg without them being protected or to lose an eye with that visor perpetually being up the armour is generally fairly functional.  Not sure why there is a belt though.  It accessorizes pretty well, but she doesn't have a sword, so it isn't a swordbelt.  It isn't keeping together the breastplate because that isn't how breastplates function.  It isn't exactly holding up any clothing, not the most clashing or non-functional accessorizing we have seen so far.  The bangle is actually nice, fitting and not quite as out of place as the belt.  Now on to my favourite part of the whole thing is the shoes (you will see how often I start there), those are some seriously impressive shit kickers she is rocking there.  Heavens help the poor bastard she is finishing off during clean up with a good curb stomp.  I don't quite get now well you could walk in them, but whatever.  I think the back needs to be a bit higher, but it might just be obscured by the socks or the perspective.

There isn't to much to see here, it is cute and completely ridiculous but a lot can be forgiven here.

Cedric

Okay Cedric freaks me out a little.  He has the whole sports uniform of a high school student thing going on there with the shorts, the stripe topped sports socks and the running shoes.  Then you get to the top half and it is like a dress uniform with long sleaves and a vest.  So you have a pretty crazy clashing uniform thing going on.  Then you take that whole uniform and make it as if you are trying to recreate these uniforms with materials available in the 1700s.  the pants are belted far lower than shorts really would be.  The socks look like they are hand dyed or just plain had the stripes painted on to the material after the fact.  The two tone running shoes look like they are clogs.  The collar on the top appears to either be on the vest or it is a seperate piece, noting that the long sleeve shirt is not a button down shirt, so unless it is a long sleeved polo shirt (which is a 20th Century piece of fashion) then the collar isn't part of the shirt. 

None of that is what freaks me out though.  The fingerless gloves are just totally out of place.  They also don't freak me out.  He kind of has a whole street urchin look going for him in spite of the weird shit.  That is cool and fits the character.

The thing that freaks me out is that he has a collar.  We will touch on bondage collars in Suikoden 4 at a later date, but on a Teenager with a very young teen look going it freaks me the fuck out.

I suppose at least it is less prominent than other bondage slaves from the game.

Chaco

Chaco's head is oddly shaped.  He needs to wash his hair.  There really isn't much to say other than he is hideous and needs to die in a fire.

Also 1980 called and they want you and your shirt torn off to be a wife beater and those torn off shorts back.  Mike Haggar also wanted to let you know that you are wearing that suspender over the wrong shoulder and that real men wear a lifting belt.

Chadli

Okay there really isn't much to say here, the outfit is boring and functional.  Take a look at the art without reading anything else though and try to guess the job this guy has.  Note the full apron, the leather gloves, the sensible enclosed shoes and long sleeve shirt and pants.  Ignore the stupid helmet, it is stupid.  He is pretty well protected.

So here is what the guy's job is.  He is the Item shop owner.  He is dressed like a fucking blacksmith and what he does is sell you medicine.  Do you trust this dude's medicine?  Gloves are good!  I can respect the gloves, that is a good practice in a dispensary.  The big leather apron seems a bit over the top though.

Now remember the stupid helmet?  Either this guy has a serious with high shelves, is a little slow or has some serious worries about the products he is selling.  None of these are things I particularly trust in someone that is going to be selling you the things that keep you alive.

Not to mention he appears to be shoving both hands into that front pouch which is far to small for both his hands be required to get something out and is poorly placed to rest your hands in.  It is quite well placed just over where he has easy access to his junk if he is going pocket mining though.  None of which helps me with this trust issue I have.

I am never buying medicine in Suikoden 4 again.  Also we should address the thigns on the Suikosource page which talk about the helmet.  Apparently he wears it as a fashion accessory.  Someone needs to start reading these entries and take some fucking notes then.

Champo

This is a pretty cool outfit I guess.  It is sensible other than the orange and green, but the black white and green work pretty well.  I can live with a cat not having a good scope on colours.  I would also comment on how low riding the pants are, but fucked if I know shit about humanoid cat anatomy.  If they are in proportion with their arms like a human ar then he is wearing them about 2 inches to low, but who the fuck can work this shit out.  So Nekobolds are down compared to the regular Kobolds at this point.  However we should note that the trans-humans are beating the shit out of the humans so far in a ratio of batshit crazy:sensible:AWESOME clothing per capita.

NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2011, 05:14:13 AM »
Chadli's helmet. How can you insult someone for their love of fine helmets?

Even in his description:
He fulfills his dream in life by saving up money from his successful shop, to buy a new helmet, surely one of life-changing magnificence.

Life-changing magnificence!

This is a man who knows how to be happy.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2011, 05:16:30 AM »
He can be happy eating paste and I will still make fun of him.

People have fun wearing leg warmers, hair bands and having a mullet.  That doesn't make the 80s anything but a fashion disaster.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2011, 05:35:21 AM »
A helmet is not eating paste. A tasteful helmet can be fashionable. His particular helmet could even be fashionable (with a completely different everything else to go with it, including probably a career change).

The fact that he is dedicated to the cause of accessorizing with a helmet means it could totally work. I posit that the helmet is fabulous and it's the rest of the outfit that lets him down.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2011, 01:34:25 PM »
It could be a fashion accessory.  I also might not be fat and just be big boned. 

I am still going to be sticking with his parents made him wear it so he doesn't hurt himself when he is having a fit because someone made fun of him for his cat's breath smelling like cat food.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2011, 02:23:40 PM »
You'll just never understand the LIFE-CHANGING MAGNIFICENCE of Chadli's Helmet.

Anthony Edward Stark

  • Is that... Alcohol?
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4347
    • View Profile
    • Modern Drunkard Magazine
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2011, 09:53:01 AM »
Something I noticed in mouse-over:

Why is the link for Caesar a YouTube video?

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2011, 11:08:06 AM »
A very good question.  I think there was a joke that was using that.  Or maybe I was just spamming chat with nonsense while working on it.

Fixed now.  For reference it is stupid stupid shit that is being replaced.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2011, 05:10:19 AM »
Just want to comment on the AI thing...in a bit of a semantic way.

For the Dumb vs. Smart AI thing, at least on enemies, could a better terminology be like Simple vs. Complicated?  Or perhaps, Fixed vs. Dynamic?

I don't think its fair to call it "Dumb" for all that I understand where you're coming from, mostly cause "Dumb" has a negative connotation (for all that you explained you did not mean to imply it in a truly negative sense), but I do believe there are better ways to explain it.  Fixed vs. Dynamic, for example, neither gives off a genuine connotation of one being superior to the other, just a case of "one is constant, the other changes based on whatever"
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2011, 10:40:47 AM »
Edit - Oh yeah been not responding to Meeple until I had something to post.  Of course the terms aren't fair.  I am not fair.  It is like I picked the terms to deliberately be aggressive.  I write like I do because it is fun to fuck with expectations.

Chandler

First up lets just get the obvious out of the way; this is terrible.  The colour pallete is shockingly stupid and the dude looks ridiculous.  I really want to get that out of the way because there is way more important things to talk about here.  Keep in mind that this is a piece of Suikoden 1 art as I say this.  The individual pieces of this outfit all have potential.  Well maybe not the sandals, they are pretty gross.  I suppose they could work with the pants if you were going for an art student from California look or something.  You wouldn't be though because those are disgusting sandals.  That isn't even mentioning that he is wearing gloves and sandals at the same time.  I have no idea what is going on there.  Alright, the shoulder pads are beyond retarded as well.  I don't even know what the deal is, I think it is a cry for help.  Sadly you won't get any good sir as all your peers are in the grip of very similar fashion disasters.  

Back on topic though, I dig the pants and the jacket together.  It is a nice laid back look.  The shirt doesn't go with them.  The shirt and the jacket work together quite well though, they needa full length set of pants, especially if you are going to be wearing gloves.  The fez and monocle don't really fit with anything else, but make up for a profile that I would love to see in an espionage film set in British India, I think that would be quite fabulous.  It isn't a great deal of praise, but for something so hideous I really do feel compelled to note the parts that make this up aren't really the problem here, it is the way they are put together and the fact that he is wearing a bright red turtleneck.  Also of course you might have missed it with it being so gray and thin, but if you watch the edge of it you must also note cool popped collar bro.

Chapman

Holy shit that is one scary midget.  Dude is pretty scary buff for a little man.  Looks like he is wearing a pair of full sized shorts as calf length pants, that has to be thrifty that.  Don't need custom fitted pants doing that.  The reason he is so scary though is that surly look on his face.  That and the bright purple steel capped and heeled shit kickers.  That is not a boot you want to be on the business end of.  This midget is not impressed with you and your smarmy smart comments about fashion ladies and gentleman.  He dares you to find something wrong with shorts and a wifebeater with a ripped body.  Well I guess we have to talk about the mullet now if that is the case.  

You brought it on yourself sir with that pissy scowl on your face and your sullen straw chewing mouth.  You do have to give some credit to how proudly displayed the mullet is, there is no hiding it here.  It is straight up MULLET REPRESENT territory here with it ponytailed and worn over the shoulder.  I especially adore the teased fringe to make it stand up.  This is a midget that is dedicated to his simple look.  Sadly there is no helping a mullet.  The bright purple hair tie to match your fabulous shit kickers is certainly doing you no favours either.  This is a look you might have been able to pull off 27 years ago, sadly it doesn't pull any weight these days.  Shave the head and get some real decent steel caps going and you have a pretty hard look going though.

Charlemagne

Good gods man, Benny Andersson isn't even dead, you could have waited another 20 years before robbing his wardrobe. Those huge flowing sheer sleeves, the big gaping V Neck on the shirt, the tight tight pants and the crazy huge platform shoes are scary as all fuck.  Not to mention the broad belt and the shoulder length blode hair.  It really is a shame he has brown eyes otherwise he would be the Aryan Disco Ideal.  

I have to really note, this dude's nose really is pretty ugly.  It might just be the shading on it, I really don't know.  It is just creepy, like he has been putting it somehwere he shouldn't have before a dude wiped properly.  The way he is holding his fingers as if to sniff them and revel in the filth of his depraved activities really doesn't help.  I just don't even know.  I mean I commonly say I don't know what is going on in Suikoden 4 shots.  In this case I just plain don't want to know.

On to things I do like though, I totally dig the colouring and material of the shirt.  On a girl about 5 years younger it would be pretty nice.  Same goes for the pants really.  Actually can we swap this guys clothes for one of the Karyan women's?  Winning trade I think, not that I am super into that kind of thing, but I am more into it than I am this dude in that outfit.

Also it might just be because he is directly after a midget, but dude looks crazy tall (ignoring the platforms as well).  That sword is wayyyyy to short for him, it looks like a toy in his hands, as does the sheath.  Maybe if he didn't hold the hilt that close to the cross guard it might look a bit less weird, but I can't really say for sure.

Chief of Dwarf Village

Whoa crazy rapist face on this one.  He looks like he is hiding in some bushes having one off the wrist while looking at an under 18s all girls softball match.  The unkempt hair helping to form a rapist beard really isn't helping.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 10:45:25 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2011, 03:09:10 PM »
Sporadic update gooooooooooooooo


Chief of Elf Village

Okay so right on the tail of the last creepy rapist face we have another one.  It isn't quite as bad because his eyes aren't glowing with his lust for your nether regions covered in scars and bleeding from fresh wounds.  Ohwever we do have to deal with creepy midget proportions and pansy gay elf booties.  No it doesn't help that he is a pansy gay elf.  Not only that but we have a horrible colour scheme choice here with white robes, brown trousers topped off with a green and orange tunic.  Just plain dreadful.  The green sweatband just adds to the 80s and rapist look.

Chiepoo

Chiepoo actually brings something interesting to the table.  We have a Nekobold who almost dresses in a decent getup.  The loafers would almost work with the outfit if he had socks on and they also didn't incorporate what can only be described as clown like construction.  The rest of the clothing we are kind of in a situation as we do with the pimping Kobolds.  It is a nice outfit, it needs a real tie instead of a bowtie, but this is a nice outfit for a merchant type.  It is very middle class.  I like it.  The BAM there is a cat head on top and a tail.  This is fine I guess since we are talking about clothing not animals, but I can't help but comment because goddamn.

Back on topic though, I dig the vest and the slacks.  To top it all off the grey pants, black vest with the mustard dress shirt actually work pretty well here, noting the black and grey shoes and how important it is to accessorize as always.   Scrapping the bowtie for a grey tie would really round the whole thing out quite well with his build.

Childerich

Hi there, my name is Childerich and I want you to take me completely and totally seriously as a threat and as a human being.  So I will rock out in my padded armour and cover it with a pink tunic and strap knives to my arms so that it is impossible for me to go to the bathroom.  Oh you can't help but laugh in amazement at my outfit?  You think I should accessorize?  Okay I will invest in some pretty pink greaves and get some bronze trim!  Take me seriously now why don't you!  Oh fuck you man.  You can totally see me rocking my SICK six pack beneath a tunic worn over the top of padded armour.  The human body TOTALLY works like that bro.  You wouldn't understand.  I have to rock a sweet sixpack like this to draw attention away from the fact that my tunic has a boob window in it.  I SWEAR TO GODS THAT I TOTALLY DIDN'T STEAL THIS FROM CHUN LI'S WARDROBE BRO STOP LAUGHING.

QUEENS KNIGHT CHILDERICH NOW BITCHES TAKE ME SERIOUS NOW.  Okay, so ignor the boob window on the new outfit.  I can totally justify that this time, you can see my armour underneath it.  What do you mean my sweet knife arms still look stupid? They are fully wicked to the max dude.  And check out these sweet pants.  I love the way they are so loose and baggy.  It makes me look all mature and shit.  Especially with the sweet knife arms dude.  It doesn't at all make it look like I found my dad's armour and put it on and the bracers and pants were just 6 sizes bigger than my puny frame.  Also do you love the wicked tat?  The one on my face bro.  It is like full on tribal shit right there.  You can take me serious now.  Yeah that is right, with my serious grin and my look at you out the corner of my eye look that doesn't at all look like I am trying to hide the fact that I wet my pants.

Cool popped collar bro.

Chisato

I dig the peasant dress on this one.  I think it is a weakness though.  It is bright and colourful, especially with the top and the ... shit I don't even know what to call it.  On a dude I would pretend that it is a Cumberbund and call it that (it wouldn't be though on a dude even), but whatever.  It is a nice outfit.  It is varied and a good use of diverse colours.  It is both bright and dark, but the key factor here is that it either blends well or is contrasting colours where you need/want highlights.  It is a good outfit overall with a holy shit huge collar.  Like wow, with the jacket open like that the collar reaches out to her shoulders.  That is crazy.  I love the shoes.  Sensible flat heel shoes are fucking hot as fuck.  Seriously, that is how you look good ladies, by being comfortable.  Sure she still looks like she is about to fall over, but at least it is because she is uncoordinated rather than the fact that she is trying to keep balance from 4 square cms being her only connection with the ground.  Before I get completely off topic, I also dig the haircut.  It is a bit old fashioned, but it works with the look and has to be way more practical than some of the other haircuts we have seen.

That vacant endless stare scares me more than a little though.  She looks like a puppet, more a marionette than one of her own though.  That would explain the feet I guess. 
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2011, 01:46:35 PM »
Some Douchebag talking about Mainstream game that is SO AWESOME EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY IT

So hey, you may have heard that Rockstar put out another game.  Yeah it pretty much plays like the others.  You drive around a bit.  There is some shooting.  There is a bunch of missions to do.  Pile of collectibles all over the city.  It is your standard Rockstar game right?

Short answer is, no.  This game is something else.  There is plenty of impressive technology on display here that is fairly neat and shiny, but is not the source of the thing that brings this game above and beyond the standard piece of spectacle, it is how the technology is leveraged that is truely exciting.  The techology that is being used here is facial expression modelling, not exactly amazing or new in and of itself.  It is also not the first game that had a huge portion of hype built around it (see Ocarina of Time and the strange dissonance between marketting at the time and why some people are about to buy it for the third time).   This whole game is essentially focused around leveraging the facial expressions of professional actors hired for the roles during the gameplay.

How exactly do you go about making a game about the strange protusions of ones head that makes up the face?  That is a good question sir, but don't lump us all in the same boat as your freakish self.  One thing to note is that this isn't about lip synching like has had a lot of praise for its improvements in this generation of engine.  This is the animation of the entire face.  We are looking at the movement of the eyes, the twisting and shape of the lips and mouth.  How people sit idle as well as in full animation while talking.  This is far beyond most of what we have seen in even the most well animated games this generation.  You will not be staring at a hundred faces going through the same motions here.  You will see some similar gestures across characters, but from what I can tell the actual facial animations do vary from actor to actor (deeeeefinitely not something to take on more than face value though, it could be a frequency bias thing here).

As for the game itself and how it utilises such a specific piece of technology?  Well the meat and potatoes of the game comes not in the shooting and driving, but in dialogue between characters.  A decent portion of the game and the most important component of the game centres around dialogues between characters.  It is not limited just to the cutscenes though, of which there is a great deal with a good fun script and some great character acting putting the power of the facial animations to good use.  A big part of the game comes in from player driven dialogues as you interact with witnesses and suspects.  You will query back and forth between topics with people and need to determine whether people are lying or not, but even more delightfully, whether or not they are partially obscuring the truth from people.  You get by doing this entirely on body language, which is where my praise for the facial animation comes in.  It isn't a black and white obvious thing based on a key few animations for whether someone is lying or not, you need to take into account the context of what they are doing. A few stereotype pieces of pop psychology will get you far though, staring straight on for truth, looking up and to the left/off to the left for a probable lie or just looking all over the place if they are flighty.  These only get you so far though, you could be talking about an uncomfortable topic or the person might be only partially lying, this is where a thorough investigation helps a great deal.

So you have the basis for a pretty fun game there.  You wander around and find evidence and then cross examine people and generally have a fun story.  Sounds familiar.



Hahaha I kid of course.  This game is totally not a Phoenix Wright knock off.  This game has far more direct overt violence.  Also about half way through I don't think we have actually convicted anyone that has actually directly lead to an execution.  Also characters in this get laid nowhere near as much. They are generally better dressed though.  Well other than Douchecoat.



Douchecoat is a total douche, just as a bit of an FYI.

So we have a fun take on an old genre that is seeing something of a cult resurgence on consoles, point and click adventure.  There is some shooting and driving stuff in there as well.  You can entirely skip them if you want when you fail a couple of times.  It is pretty nice.  The game knows what it does best and that isn't driving and shooting.  It knows why you have been playing for the last 4 hours and is happy to let you keep doing it.

There is still more that makes this stand out than it being a more American version of Phoenix Wright that is played straight as a 1940s police procedural.  Have I mentioned that the plot is actually pretty good?  Well yeah it is.  The writing is pretty solid.  There is some stereotypes in here, but they aren't over the top pastiche like we normally see from Rockstar.  They play these very straight, they are much more archetypical than just being straight stereotypes.  There is some depth here.  Before I go completely losing my point though there is more to it.

Where the bulk of the game is the walking and talking aspect, this game takes it to a step beyond Phoenix Wright.  The game won't hold your hand through it all.  You need to walk through this yourself.  You choose when to move on with questioning and when to stop searching for evidence.  The best part though, is that the game will let you fail and there is direct consequences to failure.  You can't just ask the same question again and present the right piece of evidence or respond differently.  You will have failed to take that route.  The game will keep rolling along.  There is normally multiple paths to various pieces of evidence, but the more you have the better your case will be and the easier it will be for the player to draw the correct conclusions.  Did you arrest the right person?  Well there should be evidence to say so.  This is great though, the story and gameplay is far more emergent than anything in the genre that I can name since Blade Runner (a touch obscure, but that game is from the FMV heyday of 1997).  This is marvelous, a game that punishes failure is something rare these days, but a game that both punishes and almost completely absorbs failure while not absolving the player of these failures?  That is something nearly unheard of in this generation of games.  Still, this is not what is making the game so amazing, though it is certainly a start.  The game is well designed and well polished.  It knows what it does well and best of all goes out of its way to leverage what it does well.


This is not to misrepresent the game though.  There is audio cues for when you have exhausted all investigation options and located all the evidence in a crime scene.  Generally from what I have seen is worth exhausting your interrogation options (unless you are missing a piece of evidence from other testimony, you can't press a witness on the same point again for example.  This plays back into punishing failure).  I am pretty sure you can actually screw up a case so badly that you can actually game over if there isn't enough evidence to arrest someone, but I haven't seen it yet (something to check out though). Also worth noting again, we are talking about each of these chances of making mistakes having context sensitive responses and reactions within the case, unique responses from the actors and the whole deal here.  The amount of scripting and recording that goes into the whole game is truely mind boggling.

One other neat thing is that the game grades you after each mission.  I have heard of people restarting missions because they weren't happy with their overall ranking.  You lose rating for things like property damage or um running over pedestrians and so on.  So we finally have a Rockstar game where not running over grannies is a good thing, for those that were after that.  You can even replay missions whenever you want.  You know what I like about this thoughthough?  As far as I can tell this grading means nothing at all.  It is an entirely arbitrary marking scale.  My absolute favourite part?  It will have far less impact on the player than just straight up convicting a guy on evidence that is shakey, or just plain screwing up.  It only adds to the humanising elements.

Still we haven't touched on why I think this game is so important and amazing.  It is all in there though for what makes it worth playing at some point if only to note the design decisions and being able to join the greater discourse about the game.

The thing that is so important about this game?  We have a game that is finally about people.  It isn't about conflict or violence or a war or a cause or anything at all.  It is a game that is about people.  Reading people, understanding people.  Finding motivations behind what people have done or why they haven't done anything.  It is really great.  We have a mainstream AAA title in 2011 that the goal is not to kill everyone.  There is (Sadly honestly) missions that do pan out like that, but the vast majority of the game is about talking to people and listening to what they have to say.

This might be me talking as a psychology student, but I love that there is a game that is essentially a crash course in Interpersonal Communication.  It is truely amazing to see something like this not only coming out, but being kind of a big deal in the broader market, coming from a huge studio and having a sky high budget.  We have the company that is most notorious for its dehumanising games and over the top stereotype pastiches that are all about desensitisation to violence and so on stepping back and having one of their studios put out what is probably the most humanist game with a budget that big I have ever seen. 


What we are dealing with here may have elements in other niche genres, I am sure there is some level of this in the Visual Novel market for example, but what we are seeing here is on a completely different level.  Fully animated characters, responsive emergent fully voice acted scripting is something that a Visual Novel really can't produce on the budget and limitations of some of the tropes of the genre.  The content is adult and intelligent as well which is a serious plus (something Visual Novels also have a passing reputation for sometimes), but we are again dealing with a budget you could not sink into that kind of storytelling and get away with it.

This bears repeating refined down to simple statements in all caps.  So I will do that on the next line down.

WE HAVE AN ADULT GAME MADE BY ADULTS THAT IS FOR ADULTS.  THERE IS NO GRIMDARK.  THERE IS NO LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR TAKEN.  THIS GAME MAKES YOU THINK.  IT ISN'T TOWER OF HANOI REPEATED INFINITELY AS PUZZLES.  THIS GAME IS DIFFERENT, YOU WILL NOT HAVE PLAYED MUCH LIKE IT BEFORE.

People generally seem to be accepting it with open arms, which I think is quite nice.  There is detractors, but that isn't a bad thing either.  I don't think that this is a game that everyone is going to love.  Nor do I think it is a game that everyone is going to come away from thinking the game itself is amazing.  What I do think though is that it is great game to have discussion about.  Is this necessarilly where we want gaming to go?  I don't think I want everything to be like this.  I do want to see more of this in the mainstream though.  We could really move on to have something of an adventure game renaissance if things like this take off (dependent on how affordable the tech is...).  I want to be able to engage in discourse about it with others.  I am saying nothing much new about this here on the internet, but damn I wanted to say it.

So.  Anyway.  L.A. Noire is a game.  You should check it out sometime.  It does some stuff pretty well.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2011, 07:27:20 AM »
Will there be more Fashionista Grefter on Suikoden soon?

Alternately, WILD ARMS Fashionista?! (At least there's fewer characters!)

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2011, 07:21:49 AM »
In an attempt to do concise reviews I am going to do some in Haiku

Brink

This game is so shit
That it will kill your mother
With French Space AIDs.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2011, 03:20:12 AM »
Bastion
Oh Lord, Oh my Lord
Then I scream "The Plot, The Plot!"
Shiny guns for all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 03:26:00 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.