Grefter Editorialythingstuffs, not all RPG related (I hate you)

[Grefter]

Quick and dirty copy paste of reply to Super in What are you Playing thread http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6222.msg151667.html#msg151667  Might expand and format into real post when I get home.


I maintain that it is all about how you balance it.  FFT has permadeath that is tuned in such a way that it only adds to the experience.  Loosening the restrictions on it is a bit more player friendly but honestly I didn't feel the impact where it was (TO PSP).  X-Com again handles it really well.

It CAN be a really terrible mechanic, but it is entirely down to the way it is implemented, not the core mechanic itself.  With Roguelikes the journey is a huge part of the experience.  Death does many things from being a learning experience to really bringing things down to luck with the randomised components of the game.  It acts as something of a showcase of skill also, see Jim being pretty happy with having beaten the game 4 times.  It inherently brings up the value on the Risk scale on Risk:Reward scales.

Mixed with the random components it is a huge part of providing replayability to veterans.

One of the things I have really come to appreciate in the modern resurgence of Roguelikes is the tendency to reward death and exploration.  It has become something of a trend to unlock new classes, new races, the chance to start off with an item on subsequent plays or presumably even whole new areas/quests (Haven't seen it directly but I expect it exists).

If it was a mechanic that performed no function at all or was implemented in a static game where there was no differentiation between multiple play throughs I would be right on board with you, but Permadeath in Roguelikes actually has always really had a function and definitely has an impact. 

Now if you were talking the completely devoid of function death we have in Platformers pretty much since the 16-Bit console generation then I would be right up there with you.  Lives and Continues have been pretty fucking worthless and bullshit in Mario games for a very long time.  They are plentiful enough to mean nothing, the games have save systems to make them even more meaningless.  The only thing they really serve a purpose for is throttling Score which is mostly not something people care about in your console platformer and can be entirely worked around (individual level score) or is straight up not even implemented in any meaningful way these days.

I can totally get disliking the mechanic, but thinking of it as having wasted your time and being a "bad" mechanic honestly means that traditional Roguelikes might not be for you.  It is really strongly placing the win condition being something you flag as happening in a single play through, something you touch on once and don't look back on.  Roguelikes really are the forefather to the Elder Scrollsish open world thing or Sandbox games, the point isn't to win, it is the journey itself.  Victory conditions are just to have an end point, not the direct purpose of the games themselves (see them being incredibly mechanics driven and plot light most of the time).  Also see other examples of variants on the genre that spin off in to having bottomless dungeon modes after you have reached the threshold of what they could do with plot or monster design (whatever the driving point for the "finish" is).

Kind of want to stop now to leave room for conversation (because 400 words is totes not overly responding)

[Captain K.]

There are right ways and wrong ways to do Permadeath.  Fire Emblem (talking about 7, never played the others) is the wrong way, you can lose an important character because an enemy hit his 3% critical chance and did triple his normal damage.  That's just random number screwing that you have no control over.  I see FE Awakenings gives you an option at the beginning of the game to turn permadeath on or off.

Main character dying = game over in Persona is handled better.  Yes it's harsh but generally preventable.  As you become more familiar with the game you learn what is capable of killing your main and can equip personas to account for it.

Roguelikes are technically the bad kind of permadeath, but that's kind of the point of them.  They wouldn't be Roguelikes without this mechanic.

[superaielman]

There is an ocean of difference between permadeath in say FFT or even FE  and permadeath in a rougelike.  If you get a valuable character turfed in say FFT, you reset or have a game over. The actual time you lose from it is minimal enough. FE is the same thing- and there are even points where it is benefical to let a PC die, rather than recruiting. Permadeath when used as a total wipe is something I find unacceptable. ToM has a lives system. I have lost two lives on the current playthrough. One was a random map encounter, but those guys are douches. Okay. The other was just fiddling in an area the plot told me to go and getting a L40 enemy from triggering things. / There is no skill or anything interesting in there, just memorizing certain things not to do for the next run of the game. It is the wrong type of challenge, as you are just avoiding certain events and playing the game in a cautious enough way so that enough high probability events roll in your favor so that you can win.



 Saga Frontier, Final Fantasy 13 and Defense Grid are all very difficult games by genre standards. SaGa will just sometimes drop monsters/situations that will kill you over and over and over, and it's not a big deal because you can save anywhere and quicksave anywhere. You go back to what killed you, work on strategy and tactics and get it done the right way. The more forgiving the game is about deaths/game overs, the tigther the challenge can be and the more it can throw at you without frustrating and turning players off entirely. Defense Grid is a tower defense game that lets you constantly load to checkpoints. Which is good, as having to 30 wave missions from start because of a rumbler or flyer stealing a single core would be frustrating beyond belief.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Fire Emblem permadeath is almost always preventable as well, Cappy. You just find the person who doesn't die to the crit or doesn't get critted and allow them to deal with it. Or snipe 'em down with ranged attacks (like, say, a person with a Killer weapon). This is why the Luck stat exists, so some people can deal with these low-but-existing crit chances.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Opposite opinion of Captain K here, of course. In Fire Emblem, that critical is something you can see coming and plan for, since enemy stats are completely transparent. You can either take out the critical person from range (if possible), or find someone with higher luck to reduce the chance (if it's 3%, this shouldn't be difficult), or use someone with high defence/res who will survive even if the 3x damage kicks in. Deaths in Fire Emblem are invariably the result of a player error, so the mechanic merely serves to create a feeling of tension of force the player to pay attention. XCOM uses a very similar approach. It's very slightly more RNG based (there are occasional things you can't plan for, such as poison inducing panic, inducing friendly fire) but for the most part, almost all deaths will be the result of a player error, and the mechanic encourages you not to make that error. In both cases errors aren't fatal since you get more PCs (unless you start losing, like, a dozen PCs or something, but then you really need to suck less). Both FE and XCOM would be worse games without the mechanic, in my opinion.

FFT/TO also do it fine for the most part. The revival thing is incredibly forgiving, and really only serves to give you a reason not to use people as forgettable cannon fodder, and adds some tension later in fights where you might otherwise be mopping up in a boring fashion. TO is more forgivable due to the three hearts thing, but on the other hand you can get some really haxy instant heart losses if you're pushed off a cliff (you learn to try very, very hard to never be in a position where this can happen, but on a few maps it's very hard to avoid) so it balances. Again I think the games are generally improved by this. Contrast Disgaea or Vandal Hearts or even XF where you can use all (or all but one) PC as cannon fodder and I think it compromises the strategic integrity of the games a bit.

Enemy criticals in SMT games which use a press turn-like system are unavoidable nonsense (you can neither predict them nor decide who eats them), on the other hand. One of the many reasons I thought P3 looked terrible: one of my experiences watching the game involved a player dominating a boss fight until he was hit by a critical out of nowhere which he had no way to predict or protect against so far as he was aware. There may be ways to avoid that situation but the player in question didn't know about them so they're certainly less transparent than FE/XCOM examples.

[Grefter]

See you are approaching roguelikes like defeating the final boss is the end goal.  That isn't really how Roguelikes function.  Roguelikes very specifically are about high risk/reward gameplay.  The next room could be incredibly lethal!  The next room could have an artifact in it!  It is very specifically a genre you aren't meant to beat all the time or even be able to reasonably beat all the time.  That is where I would define the gap between Roguelikes very specifically and the more broad Dungeon Crawl type genre, like Etrian Odyssey.

The thing you get from a death in a classic roguelike that doesn't have reward mechanisms for death is just straight up greater player knowledge.  When you get to the really abstracted ones like Nethack (or ADOM) it is taken to a very meta level at that point (like you see Sage talking commonly in chat) it is about weighing up the odds of the kinds of enemies that can spawn, the kind of treasure you could get etc.  That is intrinsically not the kind of knowledge you are going to realistically get through a single play through/life in a Roguelike.


It occurred to me today that very specifically the same kind of emotional response that Roguelikes generate is the closest thing I can think to in a strictly Single Player game as you get from competitive sports or gaming.  You don't expect to win Roguelikes.  Hell if you win Roguelikes 50% of the time (like the ratio you would expect to get in a balanced PVP game against a player of the same skill level) then you are doing really well.  Competitive players do play to win, but they don't play expecting to win all the time.  The same thing comes in Roguelikes.  You play them to play them and experience the journey.  When you win you win big.  When you lose you lose, so you get back in there.

The fans of the genre like the volatile environment and specifically BECAUSE it is Single Player it doesn't need to be fair.  There is of course varying degrees (ADOM to ToME and so on) and the great part of?  You can straight up strip that part out of the game and you are left with a more classic dungeon crawler (So the jump from ToME to Castle of the Winds).  You can have the Roguelike chic in something less punishing.

It is just a mechanic and it is a tool that you have to apply correctly.  Roguelikes DO apply it correctly for their target audience (which it seems you aren't).  There is still games in the genre for you (Do recommend donating to ToME!  Get that unlimited lives mode!  Have that gameplay you like without the Permadeath you hate!) hell if it specifically is the TIME investment you hate, there is a neat little game called Hack Slash Loot.  It is ultra short scenario Roguelikes that you can do in 10-30 minutes and can save anywhere (with permadeath), has all those death rewards I talked about before.

There is a whole ton of knobs to turn to get the mechanic right.  The comparison of FFT and TO isn't to say THESE DO IT RIGHT SO ROGUELIKES ARE FINE, it is entirely to say Permadeath has its place and to label it as a bad mechanic is short sighted.  It is the very same mechanic in play, it is just the circumstances that it is implemented.


In the very same way that you can remove it from Roguelikes (and other games that use it) you can add it to existing games to have an "expert" mode.  Diablo 2 and 3 do it as do many games in that click spammy dungeon crawly genre (Roguelike throwbacks obviously).  The new X-Com has the commonly implemented Iron Man Mode which is straight implementation of Roguelike style no hard saves full permadeath style in Strategy games (this is a common enough option in Western games that it is not really more than noteworthy).  Hell there is straight up Pokemon challenge that we all know by now that is built around it.

It is a mechanic that is easy to implement (even if it is entirely in the player's hands) and can be applied broadly across multiple genres.  While I will be the first to note that it reduces your target audience significantly when it is not optional, I find it hard to find something like that as "Bad".  It is a powerful design tool that in the wrong hands can be anything from nearly completely useless (which makes it incredibly frustrating when it DOES come in to play, which I will touch on in a second) to something that is incredibly frustrating and overly punishing.


Very specifically, it is the central mechanic of Roguelikes.  Much like Rhythm Game stuff is the central mechanic of Theatrhythm, just because it is something central to the design I find it hard to say it is a terrible mechanic even though it isn't something I enjoy.  Rhythm games work just fine, but I don't really want it in my RPG, so I don't play Theatrhythm.  It sure as shit seems to do a damned good job with it though.  Hating ADOM because it kills you is kind of missing the point of ADOM.  Hating Roguelikes because you don't like Permadeath to me sounds like you are pretty chill with Dungeon Crawlers.

Sometimes it is so intrinsic to the design of a game though that you can't rip it out unfortunately.  ADOM without Permadeath sounds like a special level of hell to me honestly (hour upon hour of save scumming to try to get anywhere?  That would be a very special experience...).  FTL is another example.  It is kind of sometimes using the Roguelike core mechanics of randomisation and permadeath and does it in an amazing way that is um not actually a Roguelike (it is like Roguelike with the dungeon crawl part stripped out instead of where a Dungeon crawl can be a Roguelike without permadeath stripped out).    It is a pretty special game and even with how much you dislike permadeath I still heartilly recommend it, you probably haven't played anything quite like it before.  FTL is incredibly emotive because it is so high risk and has that Permadeath.  Your choices have dire consequences and you really have this strange mixed feeling of progression and barely scraping by the entire time (you DO progress, you DO have the odds stacked against you).  Best of all each death does teach you something even if it is to maybe not fuck with Space Spiders.  Best of all it REALLY rewards exploration.  FTL is amazing and is definitely the game I would champion to someone who downright hates Permadeath (in that it is going to be outside your normal genre so you may have less baggage to go with the Permadeath).   

FTL is the epitome of Risk:Reward gameplay to me though.  The blows are somewhat lessened by the fact that death tends to be a slow drawn out affair and there will be runs where you pull through by the skin of your teeth and then get lucky and make a comeback to just barely scrape through to the last sector (where you get to pit whatever you have managed to scrape together against a final test).  It does it all through a sequence of short choices, pick between 3 or 4 places to visit until you get to the exit point (you know where to head) then pick which next sector to go to from 2 or 3.  Repeat for 9 sectors.  There is none of the standard roguelike turn based wandering around a map and a pretty neat space combat simulation in there as well (which gives you the skill check component the game has).  Hard saves would completely kill that feeling of adapting your strategy to what you have on hand.  I don't even come close to doing this great game justice when I try to describe it mechanically in its component pieces.


Those paragraphs went totally off the rails, but I really wanted to highlight that even after ranting about how it is a broadly applicable design element even still there is definitely games out there that have it as the KEY design point where it has informed the whole game and can't be stripped out without neutering the entire venture. 


Specifically where I think it is done pretty terribly is P3 and P4 main character death = Gameover.  Actually kind of the opposite of Elf's problem there though, specifically it is that when they stopped releasing what was essentially a beta version of P3 (I forget how the original handled saves honestly), the mechanic was pretty much worthless.  They implement it and then go completely out of their way to make it a non-issue after like the first dungeon trip in the game.  You get to make a hard save before each boss so it is pretty much just a random gameover condition, there is pretty close to 0 risk involved.  Not only that but the game showers you in things to neutralize your main character's death.  Party members will take a lethal blow for you once a fight when you get their social links rolling (which you WANT to do and is the fun part of the games and in P3 and P4 original they are at very achievable SLink ranks), you get 3 party members who will do that.  You get consumable items that will block ID automatically if you do get hit about half way through the game, so that kills the douchey volatile RNG ID skills (which are still dick moves to give to enemies really) but if you run out your party members will still eat them for you even if it was MT.   That is all without the fact that you can just equip the MC with incredibly defensive Persona's for bosses and the game actively pushes for you to sweep most random enemies in 1 round (and are rewarded for doing so).

P3 and 4 really aggressively go out of their way to build around avoiding this mechanic of killing the Main Character between directly intervening to prevent it and by pushing finding ways to bypass it with foreknowledge (either knowing what element bosses or enemies use or are weak to and exploiting that aggressively).  The only reason they seem to implement it at all is because Shin Megami Tensei has always had Main Character death = Game Over (back when its roots were in more punishing dungeon crawl inspired gameplay).  The games would only really benefit for just not having it their at all (along with direct controlling other characters which guts an aggravating part of the difficulty of the original P3 release). 

If you are going to have it there at least make it a realistic factor with some regularity instead of it being LOLRANDOMBECAUSe CRITZ.  FFT you honestly don't get THAT many resets because Ramza crystallized, but it is a present factor in every battle.  Persona 3/4 seems to aggressively go out of its way to make it not really a thing, so in the rare times it DOES come up it feels like a kick in the taint the same way it does when you get most or all of your party killed by Multi target Instand Death in a Dragon Quest game.

[superaielman]

I don't think you can divorce the time aspect of permadeath from the problems I have with in roguelikes. It is more than game overing like an FE game or TO, it is the removal of your entire file and starting over from scratch. You have to go through a lot of not challenging and uninteresting parts of the game to get back to where you died, adn that is bad design to me. It really stands out in the case of ToM, because so much energy and focus was put into making the entirely game tightly balanced and challenging.  Let me go back to what killed me and figure out what went wrong and go from there.  It is not the permadeath that specifically bothers me, but permadeath being a total loss. Even if Ramza crystalizes in FFT,  you just get a game over and a chance to redo the fight. It is something mechnically unique to roguelikes, and one reason I have no real interest in them.

[Grefter]

You can't totally drop that component, that is a big part of the risk:reward component of the game.  Rogue likes and most other games with permadeath are very high on the risk side of things.

What I think is out of balance for you there is the Reward isn't worth the risk.  You have the reward being beating the game or the encounter.  This is where I see roguelikes being more akin to competitive games than your single player stuff.  The reward isn't to win, the reward is to do as well as you can. 

Again I can totally see disliking disproportionate risk:reward paradigms, gods know you have sat through me ranting about them enough times when you are making highly random Low risk:High reward decisions for example (a pet hate as a habitual power gamer...).  It is especially hard a point of balance when your reward is nearly entirely player driven with something abstract like win conditions or whether a losing run was "worth" it.  The very act of playing a Roguelike is in itself a high risk choice since you have low odds of success and the reward component is entirely outside the bounds of the game itself.

Some of this comes with how tightly tuned roguelikes tend to be, you can realistically be put in an unwinable scenario (given your current equipment load out or your current build etc).  Permadeath has a function there of stripping out the ability for the player to get themselves stuck in a a no win scenario or prevents some less creative tactics working (if you respawn instead of loading saves then graveyard zerging is a very real possibility...).  Permadeath acts as a pacing mechanic and a skill check here.  Again it is a function that it is supposed to do and it is working.  I can see disliking it, but still disagree that any of that makes it "bad".  It is limiting your target market especially with how effective it is, but that is partly why it is a GOOD mechanic.

There should never be a boring easy part of a good roguelike that is a trudge to play through.  I would argue that if there is it means your Roguelike is too loosely tuned and you should think about converting it into a more straight dungeon crawl.  Drop the permadeath and let the player have their hard saves.  That tight balance you are talking about in ToME is exactly what you should be seeing in every roguelike and really is in the ones I mentioned, but the tuning may be on the harder side of the spectrum  (Other than Castle of the Winds that is because it is much more a straight forgiving dungeon crawl and that fact is why I recommend it to people that don't like Roguelikes).

I still argue that you can completely and totally work around even the Time factor (as if dying in a game and learning things is a "waste" if you enjoyed doing it) can be dealt with.  Two of the examples I quote both do a really good job with it, Hack Slash Loot very specifically is built to be such small content that death cost you a morning tea break at work if even that.  FTL takes an hour or two max to get to the end of and if you haven't learned something each run that gets you to Sector 9 for the first few times then you are far better at thinking through problems than I.  Even after the point of learning, FTL is tuned enough so that even getting there is still interesting.  Both games have some method of potentially rewarding incomplete runs also (HSL far more so than FTL though).

Deleting your save is soooooooo not unique to Roguelikes.   It is definitely where the mechanic comes from but many many other game types include Hardcore/Iron Man Mode these days.  I even saw an indie Platformer include it.  So a hard platformer that you have no extra lives in.  Like doing Contra and not just saying Konami code is for pussies but the 2 extra lives they gave you was too much.  Fallout Tactics did it, Temple of Elemental Evil did it if you want 2 examples of games that blur the line between strategy/RPG/dungeon crawlers.  It is a very Western thing, but it is definitely not unique to Roguelikes these days.



I do really want to address the part about not being able to redo fights over and over to learn fights separately.  That is really not the key kind of gameplay that Roguelikes in general promote.  They are very high on the thinking on your feet and making your decisions have a real weight and meaning to them.  If you reach a boss and he cock blocks you completely that is your chance to learn.  You earned that, now you had best be paying attention.  Just loading your save and flailing at them different ways is very counter to that core design component.  A common design point you will see is a cock block boss that punishes what is often an effective build to clear the rest of the dungeon, it forces the player to rethink their choices and maybe branch out a bit further (stretching themselves thinner and thus making the normal parts of the dungeon harder so they can more cleanly deal with the boss...).  Design like that all points to one thing, you aren't meant to beat the game that first try.  You are meant to learn progressively and choices you make at the earlier part of the game will eventually come to be influenced by things that are going to come up later in the game.

You need to play these games differently than you are used to, I think you will enjoy them a lot more if you stop approaching them like you would Tower Defense or a normal RPG.  These games will kill you and you should be treating them as such.  If you don't want to participate in that part of the learning process then thankfully these days you have a way to opt out.  Pretty much every Roguelike you are likely to run into these days has wikis that will do it for you, then you can just be left with the decision making skill component of the gameplay.

[superaielman]

One point before I start: Games with hardcore/iron man modes make that an optional challenge level. If people want to play that way, they are more than welcome to do so. It is the same reason that something as badly designed as Legend of Mana's no future mode is something that does not held against the game. It is strictly put into the game for players who are interested in that type of challenge. Flexible challenge levels are something that every RPG should have. If you're not going to totally railroad the player like FF13, give them the freedom to set and adjust how tough things are however they see fit.

There should never be a boring easy part of a good roguelike that is a trudge to play through.

The beginning sections (should be) much easier to work out; the challenge in those sections is the player getting used to the system and underastanding the mechanics.  Permadeath means going through sections you have already cleared and beaten. It is a waste of time to go through sections you have already cleared and solved again, just to get back to where you were. You can't claim a game is high on thinking on your feet, then admit there are situations where it is functionally impossible for the player to win. Learning to avoid opening a chest or fighting an enemy is not strategy or planning, it is just  memorization and knowing what to avoid. That type of puntive design is perfectly fine in FF13, but in a roguelike with permadeath?  No way. You have to accept the premise that the player getting killed *and starting over* due to things that are not remotely reasonable to know ahead of time is acceptable.

You need to play these games differently than you are used to, I think you will enjoy them a lot more if you stop approaching them like you would Tower Defense or a normal RPG.  These games will kill you and you should be treating them as such.  If you don't want to participate in that part of the learning process then thankfully these days you have a way to opt out.  Pretty much every Roguelike you are likely to run into these days has wikis that will do it for you, then you can just be left with the decision making skill component of the gameplay.

I have zero problems getting killed. I have a massive problem with getting killed and being forced to do tasks I have already cleared. Removing the trial and error part of the gameplay is not fun, and defeats the point of playing the game in the first place. There is a reason why finding the Nash Equalbrium (which is what those FAQs telling you exactly what the boss has/how to counter it) removes the entire point of having to play the game.

[Grefter]

One point before I start: Games with hardcore/iron man modes make that an optional challenge level. If people want to play that way, they are more than welcome to do so. It is the same reason that something as badly designed as Legend of Mana's no future mode is something that does not held against the game. It is strictly put into the game for players who are interested in that type of challenge. Flexible challenge levels are something that every RPG should have. If you're not going to totally railroad the player like FF13, give them the freedom to set and adjust how tough things are however they see fit.

This is again entirely about the target audience.  It being optional is a cool bonus not used by the wider audience.  If you make a game where it is forced you are designing for a smaller target audience, that doesn't mean it is bad design, it means it is limiting design.

That same line of logic is that because FF13 isn't Halo it is bad design to make JRPGs.  Halo has a broader target audience.

I am not arguing that you should like Roguelikes, I am arguing that Permadeath as a mechanic is not bad.  If you appreciate the existence of optional Iron Man mode then I don't understand at all saying Permadeath is "bad".  You are completely and totally within your rights to put your hand up as not being the target audience for the genre.  Whole swaths of the gaming public are not the target audience.

The beginning sections (should be) much easier to work out; the challenge in those sections is the player getting used to the system and underastanding the mechanics.  Permadeath means going through sections you have already cleared and beaten. It is a waste of time to go through sections you have already cleared and solved again, just to get back to where you were. You can't claim a game is high on thinking on your feet, then admit there are situations where it is functionally impossible for the player to win. Learning to avoid opening a chest or fighting an enemy is not strategy or planning, it is just  memorization and knowing what to avoid. That type of puntive design is perfectly fine in FF13, but in a roguelike with permadeath?  No way. You have to accept the premise that the player getting killed *and starting over* due to things that are not remotely reasonable to know ahead of time is acceptable.

The beginning being easier doesn't mean it has to be boring.  In all honesty the beginning should always be interesting in a Roguelike because it is the point that is going to inform the direction you will be taking a character.  What loot do you get?  Do you have something that is so strong you need to deviate from what your original character idea was?  If the start of the game is so consistently the same that you find it dull and boring then that sort of highlights why the genre trends towards more difficult and highly random beginnings.  They also tend to start hard because that is the mindset they teach you.  This game will kill you and it might not be fair.  I would argue having a more flat learning curve in a game with permadeath is a bigger disservice to the player than one that teaches you early that you are going to die.  A flatter learning curve is definitely going to help develop that boring early section you take issue with though because the star will be easier and boring.  More front loaded learning curve lets you tune the start much tighter.

I have zero problems getting killed. I have a massive problem with getting killed and being forced to do tasks I have already cleared. Removing the trial and error part of the gameplay is not fun, and defeats the point of playing the game in the first place. There is a reason why finding the Nash Equalbrium (which is what those FAQs telling you exactly what the boss has/how to counter it) removes the entire point of having to play the game.

That argument falls flat to me entirely.  There is more to even just the exploration of these games than just determining what Boss X does or effective ways to deal with creature Y in The Black Forest of Cakes.  The random element always presents an element of exploration.  Foreknowledge doesn't define your ability to react correctly when put in the position yourself.  Sure I may know I can roll Knight in Nethack and get Excalibur really easily by floor 3 if I reach I to pools of water.  That sets you up with a good chance of having an easier time with the rest of the game.  Going out and doing that and capitalizing on it is something else entirely.

It is like, is there no point in replaying a game just because you know how to beat it?  Is there similarly no point in playing something you have watched an LP of that you enjoyed?  Understanding and execution are two completely different things.  Removing one part of the gameplay doesn't invalidate the playing experience at all, it just means that player chose to play a different game than you seem to have wanted to.

Also it isn't the fact that you are going to die that you need to take the cost of death into account.  There is two bits of gameplay you will see far more frequently in Roguelikes than any other game I can think of.  Playing defensively and running away being an entirely valid choice (not mandated though).

[Grefter]

Edit - Work in progress, come back later.

Disc One
Prelude~ ~ Advertise I - Nice ambient track, throw in a bridge and extend for 2 minutes and this would be really good.
~ICARO AGAIN ~ Advertise II - This track is like a preview for this entire album compressed into 2 minutes.  It covers a lot of distance in that time.
Deep Meditation ~ Title - Menu music.  Good track to AFK to because that is what it is written for.
Old Smudged Map ~ Map of Europe - This would be a Chrono Cross track if it was set in Arabia instead of the Mediterranean.  I don't see the best track hype frankly (as someone that likes CC OST).  It is just more menu music, 30 seconds of substance.  It is a good 30 seconds!
Death is The Great Leveller ~ Tower of Atonement - Love the track title.  This will from now on be labeled LTTT because it is going to come up a lot.  Boom kettle drum.  Chimes.  High notes on Piano.  Dungeon track.  They are consistently good I think, but you know the style pretty quickly. Boowoopwoopwoop goes the synth.
Vicious 1915 ~ Battle in Europe - LTTT.  Yoshitaka Hirota Battle music!  Dissonance!  Break beats!  Driving bass line!  greftarmusikz.  It is far from his best but the OST is hitting its stride here.  More inspired than dungeon music. Uses some pretty standard electronic music tropes well.  There is an anthem followed by a drop at 1:57 which is fun.  Has a tendency to really show looping in context for long fights though.
Swoop! ~ Running Wild in Europe - too short like all Zerk tracks.  One of the few I think that is worse than the original.  When the original is bland it is hard to mix well though. Still appreciate heart pounding pace wall of bass tones.
Suffocation ~ Grim Atmosphere - I wish there was a dubstep mix I this.  It has the perfect tone to rip for a bass drop.  More dungeon music bwoooooooaaaaaaooooo + piano.
Flame of Strain to Blaze ~ Tension - holy shit yes.  This is what I am talking about.  That bass line.  Unrelenting.  One of the better put together battle tracks because the last 20 seconds or so works as an outro standalone or an anthem into a drop in game.  May be best put together track technically for what it is.  Don't like the title for reference.
In Darkness of a Labyrinth ~ Dungeon - I actually really dig this one.  No piano isn't the reason (I like it outside dungeon tracks!), but it helps it stand out.  It is a good use of standard horror bgm choices and is a soft enough touch to hit the right tone of SH2 "horror".  Good track.
Town of Twilight ~ European Town - this belongs in FF7 or 8 as a Cloud/Tifa or MWaMG/Ellone flashback.  It is a good track for what it is.  I mad that Town music is 5 minutes long when more interesting and looped combat tracks are like 2 minutes.  Motherfucking piano accordion bitches, you better bring it.
Memories of Melodies ~ Peace - this is a pretty laid back piece I don't have much to say about.  It is okay.  Blends guitar and piano well.
Dear, my Dressmaker ~ The Tailor - I love how upbeat this is.  It could be Persona shop music.
Grand Papillon!! ~ Pro-Wrestler - good in game.  Boring as fuck out of it.
Soul Comet ~ Spirit of The Wolf - Completely overwrought like all things Blanca related.  Suikoden war music.
Glint of Light (Orchestral Arrangement) ~ War of The Hungry Wolf - Back to Greftersongs.  Swap the usual range at the start of this one.  You high notes are the driving choice here and bass line is you melody.  It is good and constantly feels like it is building.  I wish it was a minute or two longer and would actually reach something though.  Song suffers for being built to loop.
OohLaLa! (Long Version) ~ The Beautiful Girl From Firenze - LTT.  This one has some pretty nice bits of instrumentation that might be missed without some bass that kicks.  It is a really busy song with some tight sampling with just tons of different instruments and the chanting. Not sure why this is the only character track to get long version.  I don't mind since its the best one.
The Real Intentions - Boring.
Glint of Light ~ Mid-Boss in Europe - this is a great track for in game combat music, it loops well and is oppressive as fuck.  I love every time it comes on in game.  Again with the bass line that won't quit and break beats.
Crack Your Body ~ Mid-Boss Running Wild in Europe - LTTT.Needs to be fleshed into a full song but I fucking love this.  Especially the part where it breaks down into an isolated version of the drum line.
Veronica Vera ~ Her Majesty, The Queen - Boring again.  Piano is good, just kind if saturated in it at the moment.
Call Back From Jesus -Mysterious Monastery- ~Underground Ruins - LTTT.  Chimes
Holly Mistletoe ~ Graveyard - Boring.
Take Off! ~ Airship -   A shame it doesn't go anywhere, but what is there is AMAZING.
Anastasia ~ The Imperial Princess's Anxiety - BOOOOOORING.  Track title incredibly misleading.  It is pretty great to go to sleep with.
Relaxation Mood ~ Relief - This is indeed what this track should be called.  Also could be FF8 track.
Anastasia -Going Her Way- ~ The Imperial Princess's Adventure - You know I think this is the one everyone is knee jerking to be worst song on the OST?  You would be wrong.  It is generic, but upbeat and not all that bad.  It would fit Grandia.  It isn't great, but its better than anything that has been boring so far.
Spiritualization ~ Holy Land of God - Not boring.  This is a good example of a mellow background track on this OST that actually has something to it unlike the others that have been slapped with Boring.
Sadness Mood - That sure is what this song is about.
Never Ending Sadness ~ A Lament - Same as above.  They are good at what they are, but they are no Aeris getting shived.
Defeat And Death ~ Game Over - This being a piano piece that drifts into static as it goes on is a pretty great effect for a song that no one has ever heard.
Rasputin ~ Mysterious Monk - A good piece for Rasputin.  It is boring.
Evil Gate Opener I ~ Arrival at The Stronghold I - All of these are one song.  This part is the worst and is an intro for a minute (should be about 35 seconds IMO).
Evil Gate Opener II ~ Arrival at The Stronghold II - This is the best part of the song.  It is fun as hell.  Hirota should cut loose with strings like the does when he plods along a Piano.
Evil Gate Opener III ~ Arrival at the Stronghold III - Ending of a song.  Good song.
Pulsation Fortress ~ Pulsating Stronghold - lol.
Strain ~ Assault - This is a good battle song with a mix of drum and bass and some chanting.  Respect.
Astaroth ~ Battle with The Fallen Angel -  This is okay, I dig the chanting etc, but I am kind of lukewarm on it really.  I don't think there is anything technically wrong with it.  I just don't think it goes very far and gets a full 4 and a half minutes to do its thing unlike most of the OST.
Crack Your Mind ~ The Fallen Angel Runs Wild - LTTT.  I dig the weirdness of this track and that it breaks down into waves of synth noise.  I don't really know if its great for Shadow Hearts though?

Disc Two
Grey Memories ~ Map of Japan - Boring.  Europe map music shits on this.
Rising Sun ~ Japanese Town - A pretty empty song.
Deep in Coma ~ Battle in Japan - More drums.  Loops well. 
Concon Ticktin Con Ticktin ~ Running Wild in Japan - AMAZING.  Crank the BPM  and you make Deep in Coma into a fantastic track.  It makes the breaks that much sharper.  The anthem all the better.  Whole thing just feels fucking tense as shit.  Also realyl dig the name.
Gathering God ~ Thrill - Alright this is used in comedy section music that sucks.  I get what they were going for, but its zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.  Needs more Kazoo for what they want.
Impatiently Mood - I have nothing to say.  There is literally nothing to say about this track.  It sure does exist.
Serious Mood ~ Unrest - SRS MOOD.
The Past ~ Personal History - This is good Piano noodling.  It gets a pass.  Also I think the first full length track that I think deserves the over 4 mins it gets.
Crisis - Yeah you know I like this one.  It has that drum line I like.  Piano is down nice and low and crazy mechanical for how fast it is.  Samples of machinery in use.  Cutting loose with strings.  Its a good track.
Hatred ~ Toudou Research Institute - Standard dungeon music tropes in play with cymbals and snare drum added.  Its okay.
Field of God-Dog ~ Village of The Dog God - 4 minutes of boring.  LEAST REPRESENTATIVE NAME.
Fountain of Saint Evel I ~ Spring of The Holy Demon I - I loooooove the effect of this.  They take a pretty natural sounding call and then distort it into something just not quite right.
Fountain of Saint Evel II ~ Spring of The Holy Demon II - Yep feel that drum.  The dirty as fuck snare (Or you know, just banging on an empty bin maybe) really gets me going.  I am also a sucker for just sliding down the frets as well for that stretchy unnatural strings sound.   I love the way it peters out and then comes back strong for it's in game loop and the way it gives the song an intimidating outro standalone.
Hardcore to The Brain ~ Mid-Boss in Japan - LTTT.  Actually has less pressure to it than the ending of the last track.  But as it builds to the whistle that is just slightly off beat.  Has the anthem it really just keeps going.  Wish it was longer.
Getting Nasty ~ Mid-Boss Runs Wild in Japan - Previous song is really just a prelude to this one though.  I fucking looooooooooove this Berserk track.  It is just unrelenting.  Even when it has a pause it is just to make the next part worse on you as a listener if you are trying to relax.  Why didn't they use that whistle though?
Faith or Fate ~ Kato - Kato.mp3 is Kato as fuck.  It is giving up distilled into music.  Pretty much music to shoot yourself in the head to.
Transience ~ The Miracle - Boring.
ALICE (Piano Arrangement) - The weakest Piano arrangement on the OST.  Its still really good.  Much better in context than standalone, the song is short and fades out.  You know, like Alice does in that scene.
Kallen - I love this track.  I dig Karen as a character though.  It really does convey that it is a love song.  The thing that you don't get in context in game until late is that it is more maternal than romantic. 
The Fate ~ Cluster Amaryllis - Yeah this is as god as everyone says it is.  It kicks all kinds of arse in game.
The 3 Karma ~ Decisive Battle - This on the other hand completely shits on the above.  Hands down the best thing the OST has to offer for things that aren't used in the closing cinematic.  More things could do with amazingly distorted radio shouts.  This song is fucking brilliant.
Come on ~ The Decisive Battle Runs Wild - Except of course the berserk track is superior in every way.  BPM through the roof.  The sample I love just abusing the play incessantly.  Gods I love everything about this.  The fact that they get 2 minutes out of it is also great.  Longest Berserk track by nearly double.  So great.
Result ~ Victory - Boring.  Brrring dong dong SQUEAK SQUEAK.
ICARO (Piano Arrangement) ~ Main Theme - Probably the song that proves I have a soul.
Love Moon Flower ~ Ending - If it wasn't Icaro it was this.  It is J-Poppy as fuck.  It doesn't matter.    It feels earnest.  It is so well written that literally doesn't matter if its completely full of shit.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I am surprised at just how many of these comments I disagree with. Not sure how much of this is focussing on in-game way more than in abstract (I haven't even listened to most of these outside the game), and how much is different taste.

Grefter I'll be looking forward to fashion reviews of the new PW game when you get around to that. We need to hear about how Edgeworth is still pimpin' in his 30's.

[Grefter]

Probably a mix of both.  My taste in music is quite pronounced and eclectic.  I have also consumed this album many times outside the game.