Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124107 times)

Nephrite · « **Reply #1050 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »

It's a good question but ultimately one that tends to be up to the voter. For me, I'd definitely say Ashera breaks average speed tiebreaks due to unlimited range... I think I'd have to lean against Snow breaking average because of charge times in FF13, although if he's only getting one skill off then it might come out faster.

I tend to lean towards the "good" team breaking average against the bad team though, especially in Floor 7 cases where the same PC is being used.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1051 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:55:03 AM »

What Jo'ou said, tiebreaking average speed is a mess. As messy as it is, it's probably even worse when according to Some Arbitrary Set of Stats character X is 1.01 average speed, but changing a few assumptions / different level-ups / etc. obviously can change it to below average speed, or notably faster, or whatever. (The SH3 Gilbert case, but also say FF6 Celes.) I for one am totally willing to fudge that a bit, and generally would see the PC team winning the tiebreaks short of good reason to go against. (Sadly, Rena is one of them - I'd see her as a tad slow, at least when she's casting. Fists of fury stunlock Rena is a tad fast of course.)

Definitely not behind Ashera winning tiebreak hype though, would agree with dude and have her *lose* tiebreaks. You go first and can easily walk up to her and smack her since you start close enough. (Sure, I'd give say Limstella initiative because she's got long-range and you can't get to her in one turn without getting zapped, but that's not the case for Ashera.) Not sure I agree on Snow either... his "charge times" are just the initiative bar filling up which is the same for everyone. (To the extent that FF13 turn rates differ, it's in whether the enemy is 'tied up' or not by getting hit, so theoretically Commando / Ravager are a bit fast, everything else is a bit slow. Okay and ATB-charge abilities like Lifesiphon or the Axis Blade firing off, but that shouldn't be in the speed average.) There's some mild wackiness for, say, what happens when Vanille is status spamming... it's reasonable to say that if a status is turn 1 but only hits on the 5th shot, that's happening at ~.90 speed roughly, while a status that hits the first attempt is really happening at 1.10, but that's too much of a headache.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1052 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:15:34 AM »

Ashera not having movement would be a very good case for her to lose tiebreaks for me unless it's simply not possible to get into range of attacking her without being attacked before. Even then, she'd lose more tiebreaks than she'd win for me, I figure.

hinode · « **Reply #1053 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:36:17 AM »

Ashera would lose average speed tiebreaks to me on the basis that she's an enemy unit in a game where PCs get to move first in a turn.

That said, if you're going to use her range to hype her winning tiebreaks, you'd better not let her get the benefit of range 1 damage figures on turn 1, since like Snow mentioned she literally has 0 move.

superaielman · « **Reply #1054 on:** July 29, 2012, 04:58:32 PM »

to dude:

For a defensive team, you were awfully frail once Worker went down. I think Ramza can either be set up for offense or support, not both. Though... even a defense up tanked out defense splitting ubersquire would have had serious issues with the fight in floor 7 that killed you. That was evil.

dude789 · « **Reply #1055 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:02:29 PM »

Yeah, speaking of that fight, is it staying? A lot of people have mentioned it being evil and Ashera, Chaos, Gilbert pump out something like 3x PCHP in a very tight speed range.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1056 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:44:50 PM »

It has been changed to Ashera, Chaos and Profound Darkness.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1057 on:** August 05, 2012, 11:57:37 PM »

Profound Darkness+Chaos? Are you -serious-? That's MT overkill within a comparably tight speed range. Profound Darkness should -never- be paired with anyone with MT below floor 8.

EDIT: Gilbert is honestly less evil, since at least you can blitz the fuck out of him.

dude789 · « **Reply #1058 on:** August 06, 2012, 12:48:05 AM »

PD is more managable if she starts in her first form which doesn't have MT damage and the speed curve is less tight than it was with Gilbert and Chaos.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1059 on:** August 06, 2012, 01:07:51 AM »

I'm not so sure. The problem with PD being there is that she's an insanely durable body to add up pressure at OHKO-level offense while Ashera and Chaos spam stuff. To me, the bigger problem is -Chaos-, he of the MT immunity-ignoring ID spam, whose durability problems take specific exploits, along with someone else with durability gimmicks and MT damage. Honestly, I just think Ashera+Chaos should -not- be paired together at floor 7 - it'd be a better idea to pair Ashera or Chaos with PCs rather than other bosses if Neph -must- put them together.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1060 on:** August 06, 2012, 01:18:55 AM »

I'm not really sure it's that big an issue. PD only has ST damage in her first form... I feel like it isn't that big of a deal, really.

For reference, I wanted the gimmick of the fight to be "Order and Chaos," so if just Ashera and Chaos is enough then that's fine... and yes, PD was assumed to be in the first form and formchain through the fight.

EDIT: I could also do "Light and Dark," but that always struck me as really boring.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1061 on:** August 06, 2012, 01:35:29 AM »

Oh, it's only PD's first form? If it's not the full chain, then it's not too big a deal.

dude789 · « **Reply #1062 on:** August 06, 2012, 02:32:31 AM »

How about swapping out Chaos for Lufia 2 Amon? It keeps the order/chaos theme and he has enough damage that between Ashera, PD, and Amon they can put a lot of pressure on teams without having stupid amounts of MT damage.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1063 on:** August 06, 2012, 03:15:24 AM »

I would be fine with that too.

And Snow I meant "PD who starts in Form 1," not "Only is Form 1."

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #1064 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:14:12 PM »

Maybe it's just a faulty link, but the link to the list of Dungeon Picks is showing the old list, before a bunch of changes were made.

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants

Nephrite · « **Reply #1065 on:** August 07, 2012, 05:53:09 PM »

The wiki was reverted to an older version. I will fix it right... now. There you go.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1066 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:25:05 PM »

Updating Team:

Ivan (2.5)
Scarecrow (2.5)
Mesarthim (2.5)
Zemeckis/Hydra (2) (Firefly, I guess)
Riddel (1.5)

I think my theme is "have elemental weakness"? Let's see if it can make it past Floor 1! I've got a good mix of speedy and average. Lots of status and revival, though somewhat limited healing. Not much durability, so we'll see how Firefly works? I have some decent options with how to build my team with Ivan and Riddel, so that could be fun. No outstanding lynchpin players and I'm not using anything particularly tricky with mechanics like Delta Shield or Silent Lake or Spell-Binding Eye like I usually gravitate to. Just going for balance and some status-whoring.

Can Riddel use "Consumable Elements" (Items)?

superaielman · « **Reply #1067 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:28:53 PM »

Does that team have any revival?

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1068 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

Mesarthim starts with it. Ivan and Riddel get it easily enough depending on Djinni/Element choice.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1069 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:40:00 PM »

I suppose Riddel could use the consumable elements.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1070 on:** August 08, 2012, 05:06:22 AM »

Yuri2 (3.5), Strawman (2.5), Cecil (2), Zemeckis/Hydra(2)[Firefly], Serge (1)

New Team, based on the same ideas as the old one, only less terrible. Maybe.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1071 on:** August 08, 2012, 07:52:48 AM »

Since apparently Seifer has raised eyebrows (Although.. I think he's still probably fine if he gets a "please talk with Neph before using BC / Speed?" note), maybe use an FF8 character whose Limit isn't MT? There will still be cheesing when teams can set up a guaranteed Limit then watch as some slow tanky boss gets owned, but that's probably safer than MT destruction, and plays better with speed-boosting.

I'd tentatively suggest a hacked Edea - her limit is actually one of the weaker ones (only 2.60 PCHP or so, a few bosses can actually survive it), it's ST, and she's below average speed. (And verify that yes, assuming the team can chip down Edea themselves if they want to is priced into the score.) To add some spice, allow some junctions for her - say Elemental Attack, Status Attack, and Status Defense. Makes her a bit less swingy since even without setting up a limit, she can still attack for a 100% chance of Sleep / Petrify / Instant Death / etc.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1072 on:** August 08, 2012, 02:40:28 PM »

My problem with the Seifer limit abuse thing actually I'll fully admit to be entirely irrational (it's actually not even strikingly overpowered or anything). It's less because it's cheesy and OP and more because it's slightly dumb in a strategic sense along with getting into the compound issues of FF8+temp (and now that I'm not seething bitterness over it, I'll consider the strategy, sure. Come to think of it, Seifer borders on 0.5 -without- it). The BC juggling issue was the bigger problem there to me, I feel. >_>

superaielman · « **Reply #1073 on:** August 08, 2012, 02:41:23 PM »

Ramza could always status Seifer to make the limit more likely!!

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1074 on:** August 08, 2012, 02:42:13 PM »

Blind hype in the dungeon. This is acceptable.

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Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124107 times)