Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules  (Read 123946 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1325 on: December 04, 2012, 09:31:15 PM »
Alright, scratch my last gimmick. Cute but ineffective isn't as fun as hilarious potential.

By which I mean, I'm stealing the idea that Piggy had after his Vantage team was already in: Vantage + Shadow.

Vantage Sealstone:
Shadow (2.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Tidus (2.5)
Elincia (2.5)
Moulder (0.5)

General idea is that Shadow can smash things about with Interceptor if they're, y'know, any kind of physical. (As far as I know, at least. Might be wrong about that, but it's still hilariously awesome.) Elincia and Moulder are both capable healers and.. Elincia's a capable damage dealer too! Plus, evasion hype to go with counter hype! Ramza acts as yet another healer, while also getting reaction commands for more Vantage abuse. Tidus throws around some ridiculous speed shenanigans as well as eventually getting Caladbolg for absolutely ridiculous Vantage abuse.

Man, this team could be a total barrel of monkeys, though I'm not so sure what purpose Tidus serves there (E&C is floor 6 and while Haste/Hastega are really cool, not sure it serves the team especially well. I wouldn't allow Tidus to counter without the skills he needs to do it, and I doubt any other person would). I think, since you're in want of a MT healer and a second reviver, you could try to fit in a healer with some sort of counter skill (is there one?) to tighten up the design a bit further. Also, Interceptor is going to be -utterly hilarious- on early floors, that's four-digit damage off the bat.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Yoshiken

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1326 on: December 04, 2012, 09:49:51 PM »
Yeah, Interceptor early is hilariously colossal overkill. As for Tidus, well, it was mostly a choice between healers without counters or support that eventually gets counters. I felt like more gimmicky was more fun, although another healer with counters would be ideal. :P

Edit: Also, Slowga completely shreds some fights and is relatively early, IIRC? ;o
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 09:52:36 PM by Yoshiken »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1327 on: December 04, 2012, 11:38:49 PM »
Slowga is somewhere between Floor 4 and 5? Not too early, but solid enough. Also, Slowga depends on the speed spread in the enemy field in general.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1328 on: December 04, 2012, 11:41:03 PM »
I didn't think Interceptor worked on everyone, just Shadow.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1329 on: December 04, 2012, 11:49:40 PM »
It works just on Shadow, but Interceptor -counters- and they -hurt-. It's one hell of a "you really wanna try your luck?" button for the early game and fairly potent even late, and Vantage makes that quite abusable.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1330 on: December 04, 2012, 11:56:02 PM »
And you can always put Strago on your team to move Interceptor around with Rippler!

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1331 on: December 05, 2012, 12:15:21 AM »
Ooooh that's pretty hilarious.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Yoshiken

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1332 on: December 05, 2012, 08:51:57 AM »
..Haha. Would people even see that working? I seem to remember someone (SnowFire, I think?) saying a while back that they assumed moves worked as intended in some cases, such as FF6 Blind.
And Neph, it only counters moves aimed at Shadow, although I'm not entirely certain if it works on MT attacks. But otherwise, yeah, for F2, at least, Shadow can solo the entire floor if I take the physical one, haha.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1333 on: December 05, 2012, 09:51:27 AM »
Rippler does work in that way. However, doing so removes it from the previous user. So, you don't get to have a full Interceptor party, just to pass him around. May be relevant against physicals that OHKO Shadow (fairly typical, Shadow pdur is trash).
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1334 on: December 05, 2012, 03:55:48 PM »
Under most circumstances I see bugs being fixed in the DL but the Rippler one is funny enough that I might let it slide.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1335 on: December 05, 2012, 10:23:55 PM »
Good luck pulling that off.  Rippler targets one enemy.  The way you can trade Interceptor around is either:
* Fight an enemy who itself has Rippler, hope they Ripple Shadow, then Strago Ripples it back.
* Queue up a Rippler on Strago, then immediately cast "Confuse" on him to get some FF6 auto-retargeting action going.  Which might well target not Shadow.  And people generally ignore the short charge times in the Dungeon (if you don't, then you should hold FF6 chars to having to decide their action a bit in advance of it actually occurring).  I personally would be inclined to force it to be FF6-like Confuse to have this work (and no Celes on the team to learn it) - most games, if you have a queued action and you become Confused, will either have that last action complete as expected or will pick a new action at random.

What I mentioned, when it came up in testing, was that Rippler can't be used to rip off equipment-granted statuses I believe.  Surprising, but.  I fought the enemy who has Rippler a long time with Marvel Shoes on, and while I believe the enemy got the benefit of the Safe/Shell/Haste IIRC, it didn't remove the good statuses from the user.  (Matters vs. FFX-2 Yuna on Floor 8 and her auto-Safe/Shell.)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 10:46:34 PM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1336 on: December 05, 2012, 10:41:38 PM »
Oh -right-, some of Strago's spells -do- have hard-targetting shenanigans going!
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
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[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
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Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1337 on: December 05, 2012, 11:38:21 PM »
Now is probably a good time to announce this particularly relevant change:

Any character that joins later that the start of the game should be considered to join with the skillset and equipment from that point and scaled against other characters from that time period. In addition, their stats are locked to the earliest they join until they naturally would join, after which they will continue to gain strength as they would in-game. The exceptions to this rule are in cases such as Pokemon or Athos.

Notably, this means that Orlandu would have the Excalibur on Floor 1 and have his other equipment and scaled against the same equipment others would have at the time of his joining. He would gain nothing until Floor 6, the natural point in the game where he would join.

This also affects the other Suikoden mages, but to a lesser extent. Don't worry about downscaling anymore.

If there are any questions or if I made this unclear, please let me know.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1338 on: December 05, 2012, 11:45:20 PM »
Yay!
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1339 on: December 06, 2012, 12:15:04 AM »
In addition, I am going to bring the subject of removing Radiant Historia, both in terms of bosses and PCs from the Dungeon.

I personally feel like they do bring interesting things to the table, but opposition has been expressed in regards to their skillsets and what they actually can do vs. them being interesting.

I'd like to open the discussion on not just them, but anyone else in the Dungeon currently who may simply need either a removal or a rethinking.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1340 on: December 06, 2012, 01:29:47 AM »
I don't mind removing Radiant Historia except for Marco. The primary reason to remove it is that it has a very powerful mechanic that is useful on dungeon teams. Switch allows for turn-swapping, which is amazing in a team setting. The problem is that the PCs were not priced at the level of having this, and the interp split creates vastly diverging views that are hard to reconcile in a price.

Why keep Marco? Because turn-swapping/granting is his entire point for being in the dungeon. Besides having a nice support skillset in and of himself (rather important), he can grant turns. This was always his niche and was noted as such in his writeup. He was *underpriced*, this is true. 1.5 was way too low for that skillset. But he has been bumped up in price already (to 2.5) and is not interp-split ladden like Stocke and Raynie are. People have taken to calling turn-granting broken/cheating. It is indeed very powerful, but bear in mind that it is *NOT* like having a carbon copy of your best PC. The target of turn-swapping must a) be alive and not statused, b) Have resources to do what you want them to do despite having to double-use their skillset and c) receive that second turn at Marco's speed, not their own.

Honestly this is not more powerful than granting your entire team initiative, which a certain 2.0 can do...

So keep Marco and boot the rest. If people feel Marco is too powerful then he should be priced even higher, but honestly 2.5 should be about right.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1341 on: December 06, 2012, 01:37:16 AM »
Jane is also being heavily considered for removal.
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
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[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1342 on: December 06, 2012, 03:31:20 AM »
There are plenty of set decisions that are just made. Rather than remove RH, I would just say that they can't use Switch (unless you want to say they

The only reason I would say this is that Stocke fills a pretty useful niche in dungeon (Decently tanky person with early revival). When I saw him popping up on teams, I assumed that was the reason. Bosses don't innately have a problem (beyond the fact that they've been mostly curbstopped).
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1343 on: December 06, 2012, 04:05:17 AM »
Unless you want to say...?

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1344 on: December 06, 2012, 04:12:27 AM »
Oh, I meant to say that RH (or Stocke at least. Raynie is whatever) should be kept was that there was at least some niche it was filling. Just outlaw Switch.
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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1345 on: December 06, 2012, 05:40:22 AM »
Personally I feel the interp-split was never that heavy - as noted before, at least in CK's tourney voting, switch hype came up a fair amount - but sure, definitely just issue a ruling, one way or the other, since it's best to avoid such interp-splits.  I do think the cast is underpriced for Switch hype but such divergences in price aren't uncommon.  More to the point, I think Switch is cool and interesting, and letting it come play in the Dungeon is where you get to show it off far more than in a duel.  Slugfests might be easier to interpret but they're not as fun; weird swingy matches are neat as long as the interp is clear, and if Switch is allowed it's usually very clean to interpret.  (For example, my proposed team didn't have a single broken thing it could use Stocke's switch for, and could fall back on Stocke's own skillset quite a bit; sometimes it could get double-MT heals, sometimes it could get double-status healing, sometimes double-Elincia beats, sometimes Stocke can plain hit something or revive.)  Additionally, the most powerful use of Switch / Trans-Turn is to artificially speed someone slow-but-broken up, and since Aht wasn't in, that wasn't a problem.  Well.  Except for Speed?, Body Charge, or Jane.  As has come up with Pyro / Djinn.

I think this is just an overreaction to Djinn's team.  Yes, Djinn's team is "broken," but that's kind of half the point of the Dungeon - either come up with a cool theme team, or figure out some haxy combination of characters, or both.  Jane is far more the "problem" in Djinn's team, but there's so many horrible things that can be done with mass team initiative, I consider 3x VP2 Lenneth turns far from the worst potential.  (As for why Jane teams crashed and burned before, I think that was due to thinking of her as a one-trick pony who just did Follow Me + some plain bad luck.)

As for claims that a specific ruling on a per-character basis is unclean or inelegant or whatever, that happens all the time.  Look at FFX Rikku or FFX Yuna or whatever; these characters are insanely swingy if they don't have clarification on which "form" they're allowed, and it's not a big deal.  In fact there's the entire "Dungeon Stuff" wiki page with the rough guidelines for characters, many of which are set-in-stone for sanity's sake.  Explicitly setting rulings is a good thing, not a bad thing.  So yeah.  I personally would prefer to keep all the RH characters and cheerfully use them as enemies as well - just, well, don't use them on the MT floor of course.  (I also would prefer that the RH characters prices be hiked and Switch kept, or even for characters to be split a la Nall, but keeping Stocke & Raynie with a no-Switch clause would be fine as well.)

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1346 on: December 06, 2012, 05:57:30 AM »
For the record, I don't feel strongly on any issue except that I don't really like the idea of Switching/Turn Shifting/Trans-Turning. If anything, I would like to keep Stocke (and maybe Raynie) but probably not allow RH Switching and have them be priced accordingly.

I don't feel like this is a reaction to Djinn's team, but his was the first to really highlight my problems with the idea. I think any team with Jane, Sacred Slayer and Marco could get really far depending on who the other two people you brought were. The issue, really, isn't that those three are good, it's that they're incredibly boring and all do virtually the same thing.

I agree with you that Jane is much more of the problem than anything, which is why I am highly considering just removing her.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1347 on: December 06, 2012, 06:02:06 AM »
Unrelated, but a few changes:

Orlandu to 4.0
Lenneth to 3.5
Emily to 2.5
Eiko to 2.0
Strawman to 2.0
Lyn to 1.5
Gilder to 1.0
Marisa to 1.0

Removed Rufus
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 07:11:23 AM by Nephrite »

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1348 on: December 06, 2012, 06:18:03 AM »
Eiko to 2.5?!  She'll never be picked ever since she competes with Garnet at that level...  any particular reason why?  (Scrolled up IRC chat before it got disconnected, and think you mentioned the scaling ruling - the scaling ruling doesn't affect Eiko at all, she joins on like early Floor 3 anyway so at most it affects her F1 and F2, and if people denied her her starting spells on F1 & F2 then WTF.  Also, her odds of Phoenix are not as great as hyped, they're like a 25% chance of triggering if the party wiped I believe.)  Don't get me wrong, Eiko is one of the strongest 1.5 picks around and I can certainly see hiking her to 2.0 (where she won't be used much), but 2.5 is way overkill.

If Lyn is 1.5, Marisa should probably go to 1.0.  (Which is safe, I think.)

As noted, keeping Stocke & Raynie with a no-switch clause is fine by me, much as I like thinking about Switch.  (As is keeping Marco without one since as pointed out it's the whole point of the character, Sacred Slayer has been around forever without incident, etc.)  I personally think turn-shifting is fine though; it definitely is swingy and causes degenerate things, but Sealstones are even swingier and cause degenerate things, as are aftergame bonuses, so the Dungeon has swingy and degenerate things.  Best they be interesting swingy & degenerate things, not boring "and everyone dies."

I think Jane is interesting enough to keep, but just keep hiking that price.  Assuming Sucker is as good as MF hyped (see other thread, but I have a lot of respect when someone says "Yes I tested this in-game") I think Jane is entirely a fair pick at 3.5 points.  That should cut into her abusability a good deal.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:22:12 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1349 on: December 06, 2012, 06:38:01 AM »
I'd be fine with a No Switch clause for the RH-ers. Even Marco can be stuck with only Trans-Turn. I honestly had assumed this was the case when I first picked him.

I like Raynie because MP Charge is rare enough and she's a solid mage/status-slinger. The RHers having the moving commands to increase/decrease damage is also a neat trick that could be interesting and swingy in some battles, so they've got potential outside Turn Switching shenanigans. Not to mention that their Limit Breaks are "Enemy loses a turn!" without actually using up their own turns, which is pretty sweet for anyone using the VBL sealstone.

Sorry that my team is 'boring'... I would have picked Nils instead of Jane if you'd have put him in. I was just amused by the idea. Hell, I might have forgone Ivan and just literally had 4 Turn-granters and Lenneth for ultimate amusement. It would have probably crashed and burned faster, but I would have been amused.

On Jane: Yes, I'd support a price hike, but if she's going up to something ridiculous like 3.5, I'd at least like to see her get Finest Arts as a default equip, considering her unique mults as a claim on it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:40:11 AM by DjinnAndTonic »