New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[ThePiggyman]

I'll go ahead and throw out that I'm not opposed to Reset being allowed in the dungeon. It could be a lot of fun to see the quirky things that come out of it, and like Neph said, if it does turn out to be too powerful, it'll be addressed then. =)

Also on an unrelated note, with Gilder being lowered in cost to 1.0, I'm thinking that using Aika and Gilder together, so they can pool their SP, could be pretty cool. Being able to use Aura of Denial right when you get it makes Gilder a lot more valuable, and it makes things like Gunsligner, Quika and Increm a lot more likely to occur. Although, admittedly, if you're doing any of that, it means you aren't using Delta Shield, so that might not end up being THAT useful. At worst, it'll help with the Different Strokes floor!

Also, edited my team a little!

Ramza (3.0)
Aika (2.5)
Shadow (2.5) w/ MT sealstone
Sharanda (2.0)
Bowser (1.0)

Quick recap; idea is basically MT Inviz Edge + Delta Shield makes the team incredibly annoying to kill. FFT Chemist was a good idea, but it just had too little damage for my liking. Opted instead for Ramza, who can heal w/ items, and he can still dish out some decent damage. Sharanda perfectly fits the idea of the team; solid damage, decent healing and revival, all with items. Only thing I'm not sure about is my 1.0. I went for Bowser, because I figured someone who can inflict status might be a good idea, and Terrorize will definitely help my team with its damage problems. But I'm not 100% convinced he's the best pick. Thoughts?

[Pyro]

Terrorize is decent status and not often immuned. It's just *slow* off of Bowser which can be a problem. Your team is more about setting up followed by beatdowns though.

Does anyone know how good Sharanda's damage really IS with items?

[ThePiggyman]

Terrorize is decent status and not often immuned. It's just *slow* off of Bowser which can be a problem. Your team is more about setting up followed by beatdowns though.

Does anyone know how good Sharanda's damage really IS with items?

Early on, Shana using items is the most damaging thing you've got. There's like, three "tiers" of items. Single-target, weak multi-target, and strong multi-target. The ST items are stronger than the weak MT items, and the strong MT items are about on par with the ST items. The ST items and the weak MT items are all store-bought throughout the game, whereas the stronger MT items are never store-bought.

On the earlier floors (Floor 1-3), I'd peg ST items as doing as much as 0.6 PCHP, with the weak MT items probably closer to 0.45~ or so. As you progress, and you start leveling up your additions, items start to give way to additions in terms of damage. Later on, when Albert, Rose and Haschel start really dishing out big damage with their additions (Floor 4-5), ST items probably drop back down to the 0.4~ damage range, and maybe more like 0.3~ with the weak MT items. By Floor 5, you start having access to the strong MT items, so the MT damage becomes closer to the ST damage.

I don't know if Sharanda still has Psyche Bomb X (if she goes, it would be on Floor 6), but when she gets that, it's probably like, MT 0.7~ PCHP in damage. It's really strong. Actually, if I was to make a list of when items become store-bought, I think it'd look like this.

Floor 1 - Healing Potion (ST, 50% healing), Angel's Prayer (ST, 50% revival), Body Purifier (ST, heals physical status), Mind Purifier (ST, heals mental status), Burnout (ST Fire item), Spark Net (ST Thunder item), Spear Frost (ST Water item), Meteor Fall (MT Earth item), Dancing Ray (MT Light item)
Floor 2 - Sun Rhapsody (ST, full MP healing), Dark Mist (ST Darkness item), Fatal Blizzard (MT Water item), Spinning Gale (ST Wind item), Gushing Magma (MT Fire item), Thunderbolt (MT Thunder item)
Floor 3 - Healing Breeze (MT, 50% healing), Pellet (ST Earth item), Trans Light (ST Light item), Black Rain (MT Darkness item), Rave Twister (MT Wind item)
Floor 4 - Healing Fog (ST, 100% healing), Depetrifier (ST Petrify healing),
Floor 5 - Panic Bell (ST, Confusion), Stunning Hammer (ST, Paralysis), Poison Needle (ST, Poison), Midnight Terror (ST, Fear)
Floor 6 - Psyche Bomb X

Healing Rains (MT, 100% healing) and Spirit Potions (100 SP added) are never store-bought.

[Nephrite]

I believe I removed Psyche Bomb X because it was a little too good for what you'd get with her.

[ThePiggyman]

I believe I removed Psyche Bomb X because it was a little too good for what you'd get with her.

Gotcha. So yeah, take away Psyche Bomb X, and that is more or less when Sharanda should gets her items.

There's also two more items I didn't list that are store-bought; Attack Balls and Recovery Balls, which randomly use any attack item and recovery item, respectively. Due to their random nature, I figure it wouldn't be all that important to list them. It's worth nothing that Attack Balls can yield the stronger MT items, and Recovery Balls can yield Healing Rains, the MT 100% healing item. However, I wouldn't count on those, haha.

[DjinnAndTonic]

IIRC, LoD has a tiny inventory, which made it hard to stockpile lots of items, which was the main reason why Psyche Bomb X was nixed - it's better than everything and is reusable for forever and ever, thus undermining the "drawback" of items. I can't recall how large the inventory actually was or if similar items stacked, but I remember never having enough items when I played the game.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The inventory had like 16-32 slots if I'm not mistaken. Yes, it was very limiting and yes, it was very cumbersome.

[Dark Holy Elf]

32 slots (equipment doesn't count towards this). It actually works well in-game since items are strong and inexpensive so inventory is the way the game limits their power. In the dungeon I don't think 32 would be much of a limit, but you might scale it down because dungeon has fewer battles than in-game.

[Nephrite]

Made a few more changes:

Jessica to 3.0
Toadstool to 2.5
Momo to 2.5
Chris to 2.0
Edgar to 2.0
Rosa+Rydia to 2.0
Ninja to 1.5
Gastly changed to Gengar
Angela to 1.0
Jude to 1.0
Beecham to .5
Emma to .5

Removed Luneth
Removed Palom & Porom
Removed Rose (I can hear CT crying from here)

[dude789]

If Jessica's being moved to a 3.0, then Ryu2 should definitely follow her. Ryu2's shot of damage is better, but Jessica's way better at everything else.

[Pyro]

Jess is faster and has a good skillset  Has anyone ever used Ryu2 successfully (actually gotten to G Drgn and won a floor?)

[Nephrite]

If Jessica's being moved to a 3.0, then Ryu2 should definitely follow her. Ryu2's shot of damage is better, but Jessica's way better at everything else.

Done.

[dude789]

This is a bit of a selfish request, but would it be possible to cut down on the number of Xenosaga 2 bosses in the dungeon? It feels like they're used disproportionately frequently and I don't think the number of people who can vote on them is that high especially since their mechanics can get somewhat complex. 

[Nephrite]

That is not a selfish request, but I think Orgulla is the only one that I happen to use. If there are any other ones I'll remove them.

I can change Virgil for something else, although he's XS3.

[Pyro]

How does this team sound?

Orlandu (4.0):[MT Sealstone]
Sharanda (2.0):
Chris Lightfellow (2.0):
FFT Chemist (2.0):
Raja (1.0):

The idea being... I'm not really sure. honestly. Problem is a lack of magic damage, but Sharanda can spam some items/magic with Chemist's MP restoration. Maybe I'll think about it. The real *core* idea is Orlandu with the MT sealstone because holy shit.

[DjinnAndTonic]

It also looks like a Silent Lake team!

Chris only has one shot of SL on floor one, and she doesn't get multiple castings until like... Floor 4? But MP restoration should fix that, so Raja's not a bad choice at all. Sharanda and Chemist are basically must-haves for any team that intends to use SL, and this one looks viable. Just look out for big powerful physical damage!

Hmm... I wonder, how does the MT sealstone interact with the ST floor?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The sealstone probably gets overruled, I think this has come up before.

EDIT: Also, as odd as that may sounds, Pokémon are probably a good option for SL teams.

[DjinnAndTonic]

...I disagree. I think Pokemon would get completely shut down by SL. They'd become forced to use Struggle every turn...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Are you kidding? SL doesn't even shut down non-rune magical skills (see stuff like the Asozesses' MT magical attacks mocking Silent Lake), let alone physical anything. There's an argument for Pokémon special attacks being silenceable with pure spell silence (although I don't agree with it - Pokémon attacks function in a very specific way, only being shut off on a completely individual basis and having individual resource pools, much like PS4 skills - which aren't affected by silence themselves! You'd need something like Mana Khemia silence, which is complete skillset shutdown, to affect Poké movepools to me. Flipside, I see Grandia moveblock affecting Poké skillsets pretty definitively. I differentiate more by skill type than by physical/magical split. Feels fair, since Grandia skills run a gamut of options that includes all damage types and basically all kinds of support the game can cover), but that shutting off their non-Special skillsets feels pretty much ridiculous.

[Nephrite]

^To the above, I'd see SL getting anything that runs off Special Attack or is a Buff in Pokemon. Although Pokemon in the Dungeon is bad enough, it may not need more restrictions.

I'm removing Jane, Sacred Slayer and Marco from the Dungeon for the foreseeable future. Raynie and Stocke will stay, but on the stipulation they can only RH Switch with themselves.


Also, making a small improvement to VBL: Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any other means. In the case where gauges grant a turn or some other benefit upon being filled, this benefit will apply once per fight, assuming the bar hasn't been used. In addition, Full Heals will still restore the gauges to full, even if they've been expended.

OMG AERIS GETS INITIATIVE ALL THE TIME TO DO NOTHING

Just kidding, that was dumb.

[AndrewRogue]

I also would not see Pokemon skills getting hit by SL at all.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Wait what? I thought S3 Silent Lake shut down -all- Runes? I thought someone made a point of that during a few matches in the DL I was actually around for?

[dude789]

I would probably see SL shutting down special attacks, but all buffs would still work. There doesn't seem anything inherently magical about Defense Curl or Sand Attack for instance.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Wait what? I thought S3 Silent Lake shut down -all- Runes? I thought someone made a point of that during a few matches in the DL I was actually around for?

Whoever said that was completely wrong. It just shuts down all rune magic and maybe some non-rune pseudomagical things. Many pseudomagical attacks that hit MDef (mind, none of those exist on the player's side) can be used under SL fine, so can physical runes like Shrike and Red Rose.

EDIT: That may be correct in Suikoden Tactics, though?

[Nephrite]

Making the following change, relevant to Bartz, Celes and Ramza (technically)

The way they will work now is that they choose 1 Job, Esper or whatever for a floor. They will get an extra bonus to their skillsets after the floor is over at certain times as I will indicate.

So, Bartz no longer has to choose two jobs to get the benefit, he only has to stay in the one job in order to get a new one, and if he chooses, can go back to older ones to pass a floor and will still gain a new job at the end.