New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Magic Fanatic]

Team Assessment (since there's no way I'm passing floor 3 with my current set-up):

TimeLord - The team's MVP at the time of defeat.  Without him, I wouldn't have gone as far as I did.  Overdrive was way too useful, and TimeLeap helped me cheese through a few of the tougher fights...  And still would've been effective late.

Blue - Way too weak early, and I was an idiot thinking that I could just breeze through floor 3 (granted, if I had waited until Neph SENT me the diagram for floor 3, I probably might have made more intelligent decisions).  Should've gone with Runes instead of Fists, even though I still think Blue could've used the VIT.  Oh well.

Lilka - Extremely useful early.  The infinite Healing/Revival/Quick would've been useful too, even though it'd go from damage/healing to buffing/healing pretty fast.

Lucia - I had plans for her later.  Shame I couldn't get them to come to fruition.  Oh well, right?

FFT Priest - Was there for healing, and I had .5 points left.



Well, there's always next time.

[ThePiggyman]

Erk is apparently a lol choice, so switching him for a better mage. Hi Adray!

Orlandu (3.5)
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Adray (1.0)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Does anyone have any info on the progression of Tia's IPs in the Dungeon?

I know she starts out pretty useless, but if she can get some powerful IPs by F2, then she might be worth using over Aeris as a 1.0 healer?

Super... thoughts on Tia > Aeris for a VBL team?

Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.

[074]

L2 also generally hurts from VBL, since like FF7 limits, they get to normally use IPs more than once.  Though they don't get initiative turns, they do get some utility.

[superaielman]

Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.

[074]

Right.  Current idea with slight revision thanks to #Dungeonchat

Arnaud (2.0)
Citan (3.0)
Deis-2 (3.5)
Garnet (2.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)

Sealstone: Multitarget (typically equipped on Arnaud)

Basic idea: I was talking to Taishyr about the difficulty in finding people who want to use the Multitarget sealstone, thanks to the fact that it halves the effects of everything (often requiring some means of buffing to compensate).  Then it hit me; WA4 statbusting is obscenely powerful.  But ST in this situation.

Arnaud felt like a natural fit here.  While Slow Down gets cut in power, it's still quite effective for cutting enemy speed, thanks to the intricacies of WA4's system.  To boot, Illusion is still useful, cutting targets' HIT to 75% rather than halving; still quite effective.  Both of these hit anything and everything not named Balgaine.  He doesn't really care much for his damage anyway.

Deis...is Deis, bringing accurate ID and an inability to be pinned down by Silence, alongside her solid magic damage.  Oh, and her buffs.  Pwr.Up is insane to put on Citan for extra power, and let's not get into Death.  It's BoF2 Death.  Running on Deis stats.  People die from it.

Citan brings lightning-fast offense to start, and can get ATK-up from Deis, turning him into a physical damage nightmare.  He also acts as a secondary healer, and later a haste-buffer, using Senkei to no small effect if he's allowed two turns.  His speed is definitely notable, however, and is formidable post-Senkei.  That's if the team gets that far.

Garnet...okay.  I'll admit that Snow suggested her.  I'm guessing FF9 equips+summons+healing, mainly.  And has revival.  Yay revival.

FFT Priest felt like a good 0.5 healer/reviver to throw in.  Revival in a pinch, and later on, if the extra damage is justified and there isn't healing or buffing to do, Holy.  Resources relegate her to secondary, though.

[Magic Fanatic]

Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
TimeLord - 4.0
Jeff - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0
Nall - .5

General idea:

Blue gets the Speed? Sealstone until about floor 5 or floor 6, when Multi Bottle Rockets open up for Jeff, and I get to stop worrying about Blue's speed.
In the early floors, he'll be quick ID to anything vulnerable and troubling, or a decent buff to an ally that's more likely to need it early on in the battle (PsychoArmor, upgrade to Shield - Arcane, or when I get late enough, an Overdrive just about every battle, since Blue doesn't have the restriction that TimeLord does here, and I have Lucia for MP/JP healing.  On early floors, I can have Lucia Gale up Jeff if he's really hurting for damage early, and he's got other neat gimmicks that will help out my team and himself somewhat, like the Defense Spray/Shower, the (Hungry) HP sucker, the Heavy Bazooka, and POSSIBLY the Neutralizer (it DOES have its uses).  Once Multi Bottle Rockets show up, though, Jeff will get Speed?, and start dealing OPB ~3x Average Damage on the first (almost initiative!) turn.

The general idea this time is Realm (forced) - Light - Arcane - (What the crap can Blue do new on floors 4 and 5 anymore?) - Time - Life/Mind.

General thoughts and evaluations?

[Bardiche]

You're going to need healing, revival and more durability in that. I suggest using only one Godlike in a team at any given time. >_>;

[dude789]

I don't think the team makes it past floor 2. The team's offense is entirely based off of Blue at first, and  Blue runs out of offense way to early.  Then Timelord has to Overdrive and the team is helpless for the Boss.

[Magic Fanatic]

If I take the PC side, though, it gets easier for me.  LOTS of things there are ID susceptible, Blue's getting the drop on EVERYTHING, and I still have VermillionSand to fall back on, and I believe it also causes Blind a lot of the time...  Or so I hear.

It's...  A really weird project team.  At least Jeff's speed isn't THAT bad in comparison until Poo joins.  Then Poo makes everyone else sad.

It's a really weird type of blitzing team, but it's still viable as blitzing...  Nall's there to make sure I always have Blue and TimeLord available to get the drop on stuff.

I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.

Mystic stats are mostly static outside absorbs and their bases are usually terrible (TL's base speed is the best among Mystics, and it's not impressive). Earlygame-midgame enemy absorb also suck ass for stat boosts, and you only get full Mystic equips on the lategame. Floor 3 is that magic spot where the stat growth of humans starts notably showing while Mystics are in a complete rut, with only one Mystic absorb slot and terrible monsters to absorb from. I believe this was fairly extensively noted multiple times in multiple analyses.

[superaielman]

Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
TimeLord - 4.0
Jeff - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0
Nall - .5

General idea:

Blue gets the Speed? Sealstone until about floor 5 or floor 6, when Multi Bottle Rockets open up for Jeff, and I get to stop worrying about Blue's speed.
In the early floors, he'll be quick ID to anything vulnerable and troubling, or a decent buff to an ally that's more likely to need it early on in the battle (PsychoArmor, upgrade to Shield - Arcane, or when I get late enough, an Overdrive just about every battle, since Blue doesn't have the restriction that TimeLord does here, and I have Lucia for MP/JP healing.  On early floors, I can have Lucia Gale up Jeff if he's really hurting for damage early, and he's got other neat gimmicks that will help out my team and himself somewhat, like the Defense Spray/Shower, the (Hungry) HP sucker, the Heavy Bazooka, and POSSIBLY the Neutralizer (it DOES have its uses).  Once Multi Bottle Rockets show up, though, Jeff will get Speed?, and start dealing OPB ~3x Average Damage on the first (almost initiative!) turn.

The general idea this time is Realm (forced) - Light - Arcane - (What the crap can Blue do new on floors 4 and 5 anymore?) - Time - Life/Mind.

General thoughts and evaluations?

Absolutely awful. Blue/TL do not work together well at -all-. Blue  needs some serious support to get to floor 7 in the first place, and you're trying to skate by with TL (Who, while wonderful, is limited in what he can do for healing/direct damage) and another bad project PC in Jeff. A 1.0 who is known for support should not be one of your strongest party members in everything related to durability stats. 

Four PC teams struggle if they have four good PC's. You have one good PC until late (TL) and that's it.

[dude789]

If I take the PC side, though, it gets easier for me.  LOTS of things there are ID susceptible, Blue's getting the drop on EVERYTHING, and I still have VermillionSand to fall back on, and I believe it also causes Blind a lot of the time...  Or so I hear.

It's...  A really weird project team.  At least Jeff's speed isn't THAT bad in comparison until Poo joins.  Then Poo makes everyone else sad.

It's a really weird type of blitzing team, but it's still viable as blitzing...  Nall's there to make sure I always have Blue and TimeLord available to get the drop on stuff.

I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.

Honestly, I'm not sure the team makes it past the first fight of Floor 2 PC. All of the FF PCs are immune to ID so Blue is in trouble. Additionally the FFT PCs and the Black Mage are immune to stone so TL isn't very helpful either. Vermillion sand is good damage, but it's not MT OHKO and the rest of your offense is so bad they can't kill anybody unless they gang up on them.  The Knight is getting multiple turns so Blue can kiss his MP goodbye and without it your team has NO offense. 

[Magic Fanatic]

Honestly, I'm not sure the team makes it past the first fight of Floor 2 PC. All of the FF PCs are immune to ID so Blue is in trouble. Additionally the FFT PCs and the Black Mage are immune to stone so TL isn't very helpful either. Vermillion sand is good damage, but it's not MT OHKO and the rest of your offense is so bad they can't kill anybody unless they gang up on them.  The Knight is getting multiple turns so Blue can kiss his MP goodbye and without it your team has NO offense.  

Well, the main idea of using VermillionSand, even if it misses the OHKO, is because the stat topic sets it at a rather darn good chance of inflicting Blind (like, 80%).  Unless there's some piece of equipment for them that blocks Blind without hosing their defense to ID, Petrify, AND Charm (as far as I've seen, a common FFT character can only block two of those at a time), I'm getting through just fine, it's other battles I have to worry about.  As far as I know, the FFT Archer doesn't scare me.

I believe this was fairly extensively noted multiple times in multiple analyses.

I believe it was mentioned once or twice, and never really delved into as to WHY.  Makes sense now, though...

Yeah, no more TimeLord.  Take him out, and add in 3.5 points more of two PCs seems like a good idea, really - move Nall into his 1.0 form for that free slot, and then put in Ness and Rand?

I dunno, but yeah, scratch my last team.  I am going to make a successful team with Blue in it, it's just gonna take a heck of a lot more planning...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Not to mention Jeff is both frail and slow (always game-worst speed, no tapdancing about it, and even without Poo, the speed spread isn't irrelevant), and has absolutely horrible offense until bottle rockets kick in, and that's not even floor 3 (even if it was, what about the other two floors that still brutalize you? Your durability/speed spread is one of the worst I've ever seen. The only reason the team doesn't die to floor 1 is because TL is good enough to handle those threats, and only very barely). Not to mention that you're banking your revival on -Blue-. Blue is the worst reviver you could ever have, and you have, once again, no reliable MT healing whatsoever (Lucia does -not- cut it. You're spending half your team to full heal with her, since her oils don't affect her, you need to have Blue healing her too. And his own targettable healing is trash! Your team gets owned by MT 3HKO damage, which is just pathetic). You keep posting essentially the same team over and over, and it doesn't seem to hit you that maybe Blue isn't such a good idea as a Godlike to pick (he's a 4.0 who fights like a 1.5 for six floors), let alone when you're pairing him with another Godlike and essentially forcing yourself to pick worthless fodder for your remaining party. You need some clout in your lower echelons as well if you want to do better than getting eaten by a FFT fight earlygame over and over again.

[Magic Fanatic]

Words.

I realize this.  The last part of my previous post recognizes this.  I want to use Blue, but I need to figure out what's available to me in terms of a combination of four good PCs in 7 points that don't use a Sealstone, since Blue's bogarting it right now for either quick ID, PsychoArmor, or whatever other buffs/tricks I want to apply.  6 if I want to consider using Nall (or 6.5 if I only want to use 3 PCs)...  Which might not be a bad idea, truthfully.  Or maybe it is, I haven't the foggiest.  I just need more research, and quite possibly a reassessment of what I want my team to do, how I want them to sync, and the data I have put together of what I actually know.

I do know one thing, though.

You force people to take the dungeon way too seriously, and that makes it really not fun to argue on.  Good or bad?  Who cares, it's just my interpretation.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.

I'm really not seeing how frail healer-types are getting off multiple IPs OR Limits in the Dungeon. Generally, if a healer is the target of an enemy team (needs to take damage to get Limit), the healer is DEAD before they move and have to be revived. And I'm pretty sure Limits are lost upon death. (Actually, not sure about IPs, though... hmm...)

I'm curious about how Tia's IPs are available in the Dungeon to see if her tricks would be better than Aeris' one shot of Status (or one shot of Great Gospel). Tia gets more non-IP options than the Restore materia, too. Though Aeris still might be better in the long run thanks to FF7 equips?

[Hunter Sopko]

Spitballing a team. No real reasoning behind it. Just feel like putting something in.

Rika, Raquel, Sacred Slayer, Claude Kenni. Status Symbol Law.

[Magic Fanatic]

This stands as an experimental team to wonder what may be viable for a decentish run...  Mostly thanks to Yoshi for pointing me in a few directions for what I need to pick up.

Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
Toadstool - 3.0
Arnaud - 2.0
FFT Monk - 1.5 (EDIT:  Which one put in for clarification, since the only other identifying feature is a 0.5 difference.)

The idea for Blue is Realm (Forced) -> Arcane -> Light -> (Floor 4) -> (Floor 5) -> Time -> Else.

Those first four are preferred, as Blue is the only Project Character this time, and the other three can each stand on their own quite easily.  However, the total here is only 10.5 points, and I do have an extra slot left, so I'm actually debating between the following three characters.

Nall - 0.5 - Even though it only works between fights, it's still good to have all my characters ready to take a turn right when the battle starts.
Rand - 0.5 - Another warm body, and has very nice durability, healing, and revival...  But the downside?  He has no speed.  That's an ouch.
FFT Priest - 0.5 - Again with the warm body, but this time very frail to physicals.  More reliable healing/revival, and might have less status holes than Rand; though Monk and Toadstool being there kind of make that one particular point irrelevant.

Comments on deciding factors would be welcome in trying to decide on who to pick for that elusive fifth slot.

[dude789]

Honestly, I'd swap Toadstool out for someone else and Arnaud doesn't seem like he would work that well with Blue either. FFT Monk is a good choice. and Blue with the Speed ? sealstone isn't a bad decision either.

Blue with Speed ? is obviously the lynchpin of the team so let's look at what he needs.
-MT damage to mop up after Vermillion Sand/Megawindblast
-Extra Healing and revival
-people who help make it past floor 3 (that seems to be where Blue teams get stopped)

First of all Toadstool is a great healer, but you already have a bit of healing and revival with Blue/FFT Monk and as a result you'll probably want someone cheaper for healing. To fill the 3.0 slot I would suggest Emily. She has fantastic offense and great speed. She smashes floor 3 MT with her great damage. When combined with Blue it's pretty much assured that at least one enemy is going to be dead very quickly. Jerin would be better if you wanted your 3.0 to be a healer and Rune and Geddoe would also be  decent picks, but they don't obliterate floor 3 the way Emily does.

As for your next spot you'll probably want someone in the 2.0-1.5 range. If you stick with a healer for a 3.0 you'll want a MT damage dealer and for that I would suggest either Yosuke, Jean or Ursula. If you went with a damage dealer you're going to want a healer. Yukiko, Teddie, Garnet, or Eiko are all pretty good. Kyra would be a  great medium between the two if you wanted to use her, but she lacks MT healing which would probably force your last pick to be a healer.
For your last slot, there are a couple ways you could go. Depending on whether you went with a 2 or 1.5 you can choose either a 1.0 or a .5. You’ll probably just want an extra healer, MT damage dealer or support character. This leaves a huge amount of options but some that standout as picks that would work with your team are Borya, Jessica, Mint, Nei, Spar, Tia, Yukari, Tear, Nina 3, or Priest.

[Yoshiken]

For the MT Floor, Emily might be better, sure. But what if he takes the ST floor? Arnaud has a killer debuff as it is, and that'll allow Monk to take care of enemies pretty effectively.
No, the major problem that still stands out to me is the durability. Emily definitely doesn't improve on that at all, and relying on Blue for healing is not the best of moves, as he's got limited resources and better things to spend his turns on. I'd say he definitely needs another healer on the team past Blue/Monk, but... hmm. Looking at your suggestions there, the best bet would probably be something along the lines of Geddoe/Eiko. Weakness issues will destroy the P4ers early, and late on won't be as important, what with Blue destroying almost any threat that comes his way. Eiko could be useful for Carbuncle (w/some variety if allowed to change the effect it has on later floors), and Geddoe actually has durability. A~and... that leaves 1 for the last character.
Alternatively, go with Kyra as you said (instead of Eiko), and use that last point for Rand/Priest.

Main point, though: Emily = not a good move. Not on an already frail team that will probably be avoiding the MT floor as it is.

[dude789]

I don't see durability as much of a problem as much as offense. With the Blue/Toadstool/Arnaud/Monk team Blue is the entirety of the offense because Toadstool and Arnaud are just bad at it and Monk is only okay. Emily is a fine choice. Her durability problems are only against magic which Blue can shut down with physic prison. She has above average hp as well as crazy evasion. Her durability is fine and her damage and speed are ridiculous. The main reason I suggest taking the MT floor with her is that a spell from Blue combined with one of her physicals does an extreme amount of damage to all opponents. She does over 2x average and Blue's damage should be above average as well. Together they're pumping out around 3.5x average damage before most of the enemies get a turn. So while Arnaud may be better for the ST floor, if he chooses Emily he wants the MT floor as Blue and Emily completely paste it.

Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer and I suggested a couple of other options for healers to use in the 2.0 slot. Toadstool is one of the best healers around, but I wouldn't suggest her when you already have a couple of other healing options. She works best in a team that is desperate for healing or a defensive team that tries to stall out the opponent.

[Nitori]

KOSMOS (2.5)
Arc (3)
Yukiko (1.5)
Sasarai (2.5)
Marisa (1.5)

I don't see myself on the list so I will repost this

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer

That's FF1 Monk, who has no healing at all.

[dude789]

Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer

That's FF1 Monk, who has no healing at all.

No, Magic wanted to use the FFT monk who gets chakra and revive.