New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Talaysen]

Encourage doesn't increase speed, just reduces how long you need to wait until your next turn.  Not as useful with Jude as you'd think (doesn't boost Assault Buster or anything).

[SnowFire]

super: I was able to hit a good portion of my team with Encourage in general, and since that team has a lot of characters whose flavor is ranged / magic (Rudy & Ashley won't use their physical very often), I wouldn't have a problem with letting them clump together and get mass-Encourages.  Hitting everyone with Encourage tends to at least as good as Jane's "everybody gets to go now" in a turn-based format, and potentially much better if speed breaks work out right.  (Tal is correct though, I noted that Jude doesn't actually synergize with the proposed team that much.)

Re Rob Turn immunities in the DL, uh, yeah.  I seem to recall it being quite random what bosses immuned it, what resisted it, and what didn't, so there's not much to say in the DL other than "works on some, not on others, good look figuring out which."  Saying it blanket doesn't work vs. your average status-immune boss seems an overly harsh restriction, but would make Clarissa more sane in the Dungeon I'll grant. 

[DjinnAndTonic]

Encourage doesn't increase speed, just reduces how long you need to wait until your next turn.  Not as useful with Jude as you'd think (doesn't boost Assault Buster or anything).

o_O
This makes me unhappy.

[dude789]

You could always give Jude the Neo speed sealstone. After a few turns with that Assault Buster would be quite strong.

[DjinnAndTonic]

No Sealstones if you're using a Synergy Bonus, though... ;_;

[Talaysen]

Saying it blanket doesn't work vs. your average status-immune boss seems an overly harsh restriction, but would make Clarissa more sane in the Dungeon I'll grant.

Well, I think every boss that can be hit by Rob Turn has other status vulnerabilities in-game, so it's not that unreasonable.

[Glen Veil]

I would like to point out that Rudy is probably never getting protector off in the dungeon, ever.He doesn't get it until halfway through the game and to make matters worse it is a 75 FP force ability.  It takes 3-4 turns to get using his physical, which is pretty meh for damage, and if he uses his arms it ends up taking around twice as long.  Also I think we had a discussion on XF characters in the dungeon before and the general consensus was that Clarissa's potential ability to Rob Turn spam down the line of a group of enemy pc's was too good.

Also, while not relevant if you choose Lilka over Ashley, but I would argue he's way better then Rudy, while it takes him a while to get, Ashley does eventually get access to gratuitously overkill MT damage.  If he ever gets to aftergame he basically becomes Ryu2 with repeated uses of Dragons.  He is also not slow as molasses.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I personally subject Rob Turn to Stop immunity in games that have that (FFs, etc.), since it seems a reasonable analog (causes you to not have turns, immuned by a majority of bosses but not as many as you'd expect).

(Also, for the record, significantly more bosses immune Rob Turn in XF than are vulnerable, including low-tier bosses like Magnus and Mathis, and the only bosses who could be considered plot-important who are vulnerable are Rupert and Weisheit.)

[Nephrite]

I personally subject Rob Turn to Stop immunity in games that have that (FFs, etc.), since it seems a reasonable analog (causes you to not have turns, immuned by a majority of bosses but not as many as you'd expect).

(Also, for the record, significantly more bosses immune Rob Turn in XF than are vulnerable, including low-tier bosses like Magnus and Mathis, and the only bosses who could be considered plot-important who are vulnerable are Rupert and Weisheit.)

Make a dungeon team

[Yoshiken]

Alrighty, really wondering what kind of Synergy I could get with a Pokemon team. Assuming Body Charge is nerfed, so no Ness shenanigans, I'll most likely look at a Pokemon team - I'm thinking Gen5 abilities/movepools including one of each TM for Synergy Bonus?
Either way, probably looking at Onix/Ditto/Alakazam/Mew/something? Preferably something a little more physical-based for that last slot, although everything but Onix is special on the dungeon list, methinks. :x

Edit: Just checked with Smogonites, apparently Ditto's Dream World ability copies whoever's opposite him, so list Ditto first and he can copy whoever else is listed first?
Also, Magic Guard doesn't prevent OHKOs, so the entire team is still ID-susceptible without auto-Safeguard or Damp.
...wait. DAMP.
Any chance of me getting Dream World Swampert as the 5th? I totally need Damp in order to have any chance at all.
Edit again: Wait, I'm an idiot, it's not Damp, it's Sturdy. Hmm. Which.. Steelix might have?

[Meiousei]

Alright, after much, much pestering...I will try to make a dungeon. Go easy on me, okay? (I am so going to kill MagicFanatic)


Bartz (4.0), Maya Amano (3.0), Hilda (2.0), Jessica (1.0), Time Mage (1.0)

Life Sealstone

[dude789]

Here's my thoughts on my team and how it did. I'll start with individual evaluations and then the overall team analysis after that.

Deis2: Really good. She's expensive, but worth it. Great MT damage, accurate ID, and a devastatingly good buff all from fantastic speed. All of her stuff is acquired early and she makes a great earlygame crutch for a team who needs a good strong early member. The offense she brings with her magic and Attack Up makes her a strong choice for any blitzing team. Her resources are serviceable but not vast so I wouldn't recommend her for a stalling team, but she had more than enough given the design of my team.

Emily: She works really well with Deis2. The damage is fantastic and fast, but it needs a little push to boost it over the 2.5 kill point and Deis2 provides that. If the enemies are physically frail and vulnerable to ID than Emily and Deis2 take two of them out instantly which is really awesome. Attack Up on her wasn't used as much as I thought it would be mostly because she's faster than Deis2, but it was still nice against bosses.

Jerin: She was worth it when she was a 2.0 and she's still worth it as a 3. MT damage of 3 flavors, healing that is solid early and damn good late, and some buffs to top it off. Durability is surprisingly solid  as well. I wish she got her good healing a little earlier and that her confuse was a bit more accurate, but she's always extremely helpful. Mirror probably saved a few matches and was a nice option once she got it.

Bowser: Was kind of disappointing. Terrorize was used much less that I thought it would be. If I had to use it, that meant that my team was probably already in trouble. I needed the damage for the MT swarm to be effective but someone like Lemina could have done it better.

Priest: Early healing and revival was what I needed her for and it was what she provided. I didn't need it as much as I thought I did because a lot of people have a lot of Deis2 respect early, but she was useful. Holy probably saved my ass on a couple of fights too.

Overall: Probably my favorite team that's been in the dungeon so far. Watching the team smash it's way through was very satisfying and in general it was easy to argue for. Looking back, I would probably swap out Bowser for Tia and drop the Speed? sealstone for the elemental resist nullifying sealstone. Maybe also swap out Priest for either Rena or Nina 3, but I'd have to think about that change.

Some final thoughts on general dungeon balance: Overall I think the dungeon is at a good place balance wise. The Justin/Feena Floor 2 could stand to be toned down a bit because as it is now, some of those PC combinations are pretty nasty for early on. As a result, most people end up choosing the other floor which I think is a bit better balanced for floor 2. I think it would be a good idea to cut out some of the opponents on the second to last fight on Floor 7b. My team was well suited for floor 7a, but I think most people would still chose that floor because that second to last fight in Floor 7b is just a huge slog, especially since it's followed up by a fight filled with fast IDers ready to pick off and survivors. Similarly, I think the FFX fight from floor 8 should be reduced to something like Yuna/Tidus/Lulu or Yuna/Tidus/Wakka/Auron. As it is right now, I think lots of fast status or ID is one of the only realistic ways to get past it. (Blitzing using an obtuse element or a burst move like Overdrive would also work but those are rare.) If you want to keep the fight as is, it would be nice to offer a second option for the floor. Aside from the couple of fights I mentioned, the balance for the dungeon is pretty good. Status especially is at a nice spot in that it's very useful to have but you can't rely on it exclusively and aside from that FFX fight it's not really required.   

I have a plan set for my next team. It's kind of similar to this one, but it should be less reliant on elements and a bit more versatile overall.
 

[Talaysen]

White Wizard, Final Fantasy 1 Dawn of Souls
Nash, Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
Borya (Brey), Dragon Quest 4
Momo, Breath of Fire 3 (With Enemy Skills)
Angelo, Dragon Quest 8
Nall, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete

Durability is for weaklings anyway.

[SnowFire]

Belated reply, but not sure if the FFX fight should be nerfed.  Don't get me wrong, it's a horribly unfair fight, but I think Floor 8 is where the Dungeon should really start aggressively trying to kill you with the only way to survive being cheese of some kind.  dude's team was great, but it was "fair" (and this is a compliment!).  Floor 8 has to worry about broken things.  For example, any team with Jessica is forced to blow a Magic Burst (but then it's just Yuna / Lulu); Djinn's team with the old Violent Burst Law blows either an Omnislash or, if evading-Limits hype is go, a Great Gospel and still wins; teams with old-Tidus that had Sonic Steel a la Shale's team cast an init. Slowga and clean up; teams with FF5 Bartz can give him Ninja speed where he does something unfair with Mix or Blue Magic to status everything; etc.  The fight is of course nigh-unwinnable if too much of the FFX team gets a turn, but that just reflects how tough it is to find a balance for aftergame fights.

Also, something Neph mentioned in #NyarlieDungeon chat: adding RH characters?  Switch is interesting in the DL, for all that it can potentially overwhelm the rest of a character's attributes..  Aht notably would be good with just Switch as her only move, as she enables characters like Millenia, Ryu2, or Strago to be suddenly fast on turn 1.  Ideas:

Stocke:2.5
Pros: Tanky reviver!  Probably survives a Switch, so can make slow characters mildly fast!  Turn Cancel is fantastic for later fights if you can stall and build Mana Gague.
Cons: Healing is ST-only and not fantastic.  Physical damage fades in the later floors, and his G-Fire is a commonly walled element at endgame.

Marco: 1.5
Pros: Trans-turn.  Double turns for someone better than Marco!  Healing, revival, and solid Defense / Magic buffs.  On later floors, MT Sleep and his buffs go MT as well.  Push Assault / Grapple give a positioning game.
Cons: MT healing starts out okay, but is pretty bad by endgame.  Below average speed, not that durable.

Aht + Marco: 3.5?  (Feels more like 4.0, but using 2 slots may merit a discount?)
Pros: See Marco.  For Aht, traps are pretty great damage...  once Marco takes his turn.  She can switch in slow characters to get the drop on enemies.  MT healing, an MT MDef buff, and an MT status resistance buff round out the skillset.
Cons: Aht will probably die if enemies are still alive after she switches.  While Aht's MT healing holds up better than Marco's, it too fades by endgame.

Eruca doesn't work (she's terrible on Floors 1-4, and has availability issues for Floor 7, and her claim to above-average speed rests on the Shadowrun dress which makes her super-frail late, and she plain doesn't have early).  Rosch is kinda boring, FF1 Knight is already in the Dungeon for PDef tanks and is probably better anyway.  Gafka invokes way too much RH grid interp issues.  Raynie works but is kinda bland and not that great for the Dungeon.

[Random Consonant]

Well, dead team is dead.  Probably would've gone farther if I swapped out Lyn for the sake of better offensive variety but otherwise I don't regret the team choice.  Tia in particular got some stupid stupid mileage out Body Charge and is definitely one of the best choices for it.  Dunno if that says more about her or Body Charge though.  Zalmo is pretty good support for the price, too.

New team idea so far is Deis2/Stocke/Crono/Marco/someone for the remaining 1.5.  Using BC Tia again is sorely tempting but I'd rather not go down that route.  Carlie/WW/BC Raja are also ideas there but basically I want a healer that can actually, y'know, heal since the RH people kinda have issues there.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Body Charge Marco, baby.

EDIT: Although I'm not sure if you'd get any mileage out of Stocke there unless it's a marriage deal (can't get Stocke without Marco and vice-versa).

[dude789]

Well, dead team is dead.  Probably would've gone farther if I swapped out Lyn for the sake of better offensive variety but otherwise I don't regret the team choice.  Tia in particular got some stupid stupid mileage out Body Charge and is definitely one of the best choices for it.  Dunno if that says more about her or Body Charge though.  Zalmo is pretty good support for the price, too.

New team idea so far is Deis2/Stocke/Crono/Marco/someone for the remaining 1.5.  Using BC Tia again is sorely tempting but I'd rather not go down that route.  Carlie/WW/BC Raja are also ideas there but basically I want a healer that can actually, y'know, heal since the RH people kinda have issues there.

I'd say go for BC Raja because Crono's resources are bad and Deis doesn't have enough to spam spells for very long. Raja would definately help Crono out and let Deis spam Bolt X's while Marco gives her more turns.

[Random Consonant]

Well, admittedly, if anything could be culled from that and replaced it's probably Stocke and his attempts at playing the everyman.  So let's say I do that and decide on BC Raja and his now having things resembling speed and durability because by god I brought Marco here for Trans-turn and that is what he will do and not pretending he's actually much good at refilling the HP of the still-living.  The issue is that with my relatively limited knowledge base I'm not really sure where to go from there.

[dude789]

Well, admittedly, if anything could be culled from that and replaced it's probably Stocke and his attempts at playing the everyman.  So let's say I do that and decide on BC Raja and his now having things resembling speed and durability because by god I brought Marco here for Trans-turn and that is what he will do and not pretending he's actually much good at refilling the HP of the still-living.  The issue is that with my relatively limited knowledge base I'm not really sure where to go from there.

Well you have a bunch of options if you want to replace Stocke. 2.5 is a pretty versatile pick.  In particular, Millenia could work well since you've got Raja with Ataraxia, but that's a bit of a judgement call since Grandia 2 is another game which splits special skills and magic. She's got a potent skillset and with a lot of Marco turns she can get pretty ridiculous but if Ataraxia doesn't heal SP then she'll probably run out too fast. Tidus and Marco can lead to some pretty ridiculous turn advantage shenanigans but Tidus doesn't add a whole lot besides the speed game. Depending on whether people give Scarecrow 4 turns from Trans Turn that can also get pretty insane, but he's a bit difficult to work with otherwise. Those are probably the most extreme options but there are a ton of 2.5s who are really versatile like Maxim, Jack, Guv, Feena, DQ4 Hero and Alex who would all appreciate MP healing and getting more turns. Anybody with a good physical attack will really like Deis 2. Basically any above average physical becomes a OHKO.

[Glen Veil]

So have been debating switching up my current planned team to something rather different.

Deis1(3.5) + Emma(1.5)(Speed?) + Sharanda(2) + (Eiko(1.5) + Sasarai(2.5))?

Basic goal of the team will basically be magical blitz, Emma gets Magic Zone by floor 4 which boots all magic damage by 50%, after which the rest of the team of above average mages just kind of slaughter things.  Basically unsure on the last two slots to fill in, currently have Eiko/Sasarai, the first of which is kind of just there and the latter I'm not really overly familiar with so I thought it would be good to find out if people feel like they would fit in or not.

Edit:  Considering Deis1(3.5) + Emma(1.5)(Speed?) + Sharanda(2) + (Eiko(1.5) + RedXIII(2.5)) now.

[Yoshiken]

Alright, pondered this in chat, and.. since I'd like to stick to mostly characters I know, I'll be taking Yuri2 over Shania, so considering:

Ephraim (2.5)
Alakazam (2.5)
Tear (1.0)
Eiko (1.5)
Yuri2 (3.5)

No idea on a Sealstone yet. Basic idea of the team is that Eph/Zam sweep the first 3-4 floors, and just as they stop clearing things single-handedly, Yuri steps in to start cleaning up. Tear/Eiko are there are effective healers, with Eiko also providing some nice backup damage on the magic side of things. (I figure Alakazam is much more likely to die than Ephraim.)
Sealstone.. Like I said, I have no idea. I'm considering Neo Speed and Vantage, on the grounds that I have a character who can counterattack and minimal ways of boosting speed so they seem viable. Leaning Vantage, since Eiko can eventually start Hasting.

[dude789]

Not officially submitting this as a team, but I'd like to hear some thoughts on how this team might do.

Orlandu (4.0)
Alys (3.0)
Sasarai (2.5) Life sealstone
Yukari (1.0)
Ditto (.5)
The team idea originated when I was trying to come up with a team centered around Orlandu. I was considering using him with Silent Lake and Sasarai immediately jumped out as someone who can do that and provide more to the team. Alys also functions well under Silent lake and is fast enough to drop a Saner before Silent Lake resolves making the team difficult to kill. Yukari is somebody who really hasn't been used that often which is a shame. The lowish revival is a concern but hopefully Ditto will alleviate that somewhat since he has to be killed so that the opponent isn't faced with having to take out 2 Orlandus.

[Yoshiken]

I'd be concerned about the lack of revival there with Silent Lake, personally. My instant go-to for SL teams is always Chemist, since you can easily heal/revive through it. That said, doing that would mean dropping Alys, although it would also mean you could improve Yukari, I guess - the main issue with Persona characters is and always will be the opportunity for extra turns, so they tend to go with specialised teams or not at all. (Typically enough, this strikes me as a perfect team for a Persona character... Just not Yukari. Maybe Chie or Yosuke. Naoto -maybe-, since she should be faster than Sasarai for the most part.)
I guess I like the team concept, but the lack of revival is way too great an issue. If Orlandu falls, this team just kinda collapses, and that's never a good position to be in.

[dude789]

I'd be concerned about the lack of revival there with Silent Lake, personally. My instant go-to for SL teams is always Chemist, since you can easily heal/revive through it. That said, doing that would mean dropping Alys, although it would also mean you could improve Yukari, I guess - the main issue with Persona characters is and always will be the opportunity for extra turns, so they tend to go with specialised teams or not at all. (Typically enough, this strikes me as a perfect team for a Persona character... Just not Yukari. Maybe Chie or Yosuke. Naoto -maybe-, since she should be faster than Sasarai for the most part.)
I guess I like the team concept, but the lack of revival is way too great an issue. If Orlandu falls, this team just kinda collapses, and that's never a good position to be in.

I think you might be underestimating Saner a bit. Under Silent Lake and Saner Orlandu is almost impossible to kill since it gives the team really really high evasion and he's already got some good defensive options from FFT equips. Any damage he does take is just going to be wiped away whenever he gets a turn. Lack of revival is my main concern but I don't think Chemist will really help since I'd have to give up Alys and Saner's defensive buffs. Ditto does get 5 shots of Mother Ocean if he transforms into Sasarai so that helps.

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, the strategy is definitely pretty solid at least until the later floors, when more ITE is floating around. Personally though I wouldn't see Ditto having a minimum of 5 L4 charges. I'm more inclined to see him as having like 1/3 of normal charges (But...ones that reset each battle). So I think things will work well until then, and then you hope Orlandu smash comes up. SL of course isn't fast however, you so are generally going to be open to a turn of magic barring...well, MP busting (although that's not quite as full before Excalibur) or statusing.