New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[OblivionKnight]

That's what the "Uzzi Punch" is for.

[dude789]

I'm going to put my Geno/Crowley Body Charge team on the shelf for now. I came up with a defensive team and I'd like to see how it fairs in the dungeon.

Cecilia 3.5
Ramza 3.0
Worker 8 2.0
Kyra 2.0
Ditto .5 (quick powder)
Firefly sealstone

Basic premise of the team is obvious. Use Worker 8 to soak up all of the magic damage while the team buffs to hell and slowly wears down the enemy. Kyra and Worker 8 are pretty much best friends since Medice gives Kyra a reliable way to keep Worker healed up and if you see Warla working on Worker 8 then that's even better. If not that's okay, she can cripple the enemy with Telele or try to put them to sleep to give the team some breathing room. Ramza will be going for item immediately so he provides another way to keep worker 8 alive and eventually can do fun stuff like Ninja damage, Samurai versatility, or Summoner tricks. Cecilia of course has her massive skillset and provides pretty much everything from buffs of every flavor to debilitating status. She can even heal Worker 8 in a pinch with Mystic. Ditto is there to provide another option if needed whether it be Ramza's damage, Cecilia's buffing or Kyra's solid versatility.

If the enemy does manage to punch through the frontline of Worker 8, they will still have to get through the rest of the team. Cecilia and Ditto both have the option to become magically immune if they want and Ramza has all of that good FFT equip options and evasion whoring. Even Cecilia will stand up to physicals pretty well once Warla has been used. 

[dude789]

Sorry for the double post, but if I turned Ramza into a mediator for a floor would I be allowed to permanently modify his and Worker 8's brave?

[Nephrite]

No.

[Glen Veil]

Hmm, thinking I'm going to change my team up somewhat:

Virginia(3.5) + Red (2.5) + Sharanda(2.0) + Emma(1)(Speed?) + Eiko(1.5)  With a half point left over for good luck or something.

[Random Consonant]

So apparently I am dumb and can't read, since NeoSpeed being on Marco would prevent him from Transturning people which would counter the entire purpose of using it Marco.  Oops.  So, time for another option, which so far seems to either entail keeping NeoSpeed but using it on someone else, or using another sealstone entirely.

Team is Deis2/Lucian/Shiho/Terra/Marco for reference.

[SnowFire]

So, I realize they aren't actually in the list yet, but my next team I'm thinking about:

3 Fang
2 Vanille
(2?) Snow (Firefly SS)
(1.5?) Lightning (Leader)
(1.0-1.5?) Hope

Yeah, giving up a synergy sealstone, but...  a team of all averageish initiative and erratic status blocking for whom one character's death means Game Over just direly needs Firefly lest it fall over and explode.  This team is 1-1.5 points short of the 11 allowed, so hopefully the full-healing + revival after every battle thing FF13 has will be respected as a mini-synergy Sealstone anyway. (I personally would enforce this for any FF13 character regardless of sealstone, since that's just how FF13 characters roll,  but figured it'd be useful if that was explicit.  I'd also add "if the floor does not conclude within 250 rounds the team gets Doomed and Game Overed", similar to how stalling forever in-game doesn't work.  Also means that Summon is basically once-per-floor, as it should be.)

Also on Floor 5 I can totally pick my own leader rather than have the game dungeon pick for me!!1!

[Nephrite]

Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
Dhyer | Dorothy, Palom & Porom (Body Charge), Terra, Crono
Djinn | Cecilia, Jack, Rudy, Jane, Emma
Jo'ou | Zerase, Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
Random | Deis2 (NSpeed), Lucian & Shiho, Terra, Marco
Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
Piggyman | Athos, Amarant, Sharanda, Worker 8, Ditto [Nall] (Vantage)
Grefter | Orlandu, Rikku, Nina4 (Status Symbol Law)
Dune | Timelord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris (Life), Mint
dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
Super | Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Alena, Brey [Nall] (Status Symbol Law)
Glen | Virginia, Red, Sharanda, Emma, (Speed?)  Eiko
OK | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
Trips | Yuri, Fogel, Cielo, Yukiko, Mime (SSL)
CT | Fang, Vanille, Peppita, White Rose, Aeris (VBL)
Snowfire | Fang, Vanille, Snow (Firefly), Lightning, Hope
Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray


Did I miss anyone?

VVVV: Fixed

[SnowFire]

The ones on the last page - dude's modified team, random's unknown Sealstone substitution, and my team.

[SnowFire]

Also note that I have Firefly on Snow.

[Talaysen]

Celes (Speed?)
Nel
Lyn
Yukiko
Cray

[Clear Tranquil]

Hmm I think I should probably choose a better Sealstone since it seems most people think VBL doesn't work with FFXIII characters and not sure it's worth keeping for Aeris alone. Perhaps I should also think of a better 1.0 choice than Aeris to synergise with my team if there is one since Aeris isn't that great aside from her limits ;P

[Random Consonant]

On reflection (and playing FFX), changing team to Fogel (Multitarget)/Rune/Tidus/Marco/Raja.

Let's see how badly this is going to blow up in my face. (edit: switching Alakazam to Rune, on thinking on things some more)

[ThePiggyman]

If it's not too late, I'd like to change my team.

Athos (3.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Red Mage (1.5)
Nino (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone

Going to make some adjustments to my team, since I decided that Amarant's Return Magic is honestly not enough to merit the 2 points I'm spending for him. His Auto-Life is the crappy kind that only resets your turn and only gives you 1 HP, and his damage is only truly good for one floor, until Steiner comes back and Vivi starts learning -ga spells. Ramza will work much better, and allow me some twinkery. Also bringing in FF5 Red Mage, even though he can't really counter, since he has revival (that later becomes duel-revival, yay!) and nasty status, like Frog, Confuse and Sleep (that later becomes duel-nasty status, hooray!).

As for Nino, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on her. Evidently, there's going to be a bit of disparity with interps, but she fits in well with the Vantage sealstone, and can eventually heal. Should I toss Nino, and grab another reviver (Tear?) instead?

I'll go with the team I posted for now, but please don't hesitate to point out things that concern you, or that you might change.

[Dhyerwolf]

Without extra scaling outside of the norm, Nino starts as having trash in every stat, and that doesn't change until floor 5. Even with extra scaling, her stats still end up bad at the end because I'm not seeing her get higher level than the DL until Floor 8.

[ThePiggyman]

Without extra scaling outside of the norm, Nino starts as having trash in every stat, and that doesn't change until floor 5. Even with extra scaling, her stats still end up bad at the end because I'm not seeing her get higher level than the DL until Floor 8.

So, by those standards, she's essentially a reverse-Athos who still ends up worse than Athos in practice. Ouch. Her healing wouldn't even be allowed 'til F6 or something, since the promotion would be just as delayed. I can't get behind that. I'm going to switch Nino out for Adray. I think I need support more than I need offense anyways.

Confirming my new team.

Athos (3.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Red Mage (1.5)
Adray (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone

[dude789]

I know that not everyone uses Dhyer's scaling for Nino though. I'd see her as having her starting stats until the end of floor 4 and then she's caught up by the end of floor 5. So she's alright for floor 1 or 2, bad for floor 3 and four, solid again for floor 5 and then good for floor 6 and beyond. It takes her like a map and a half to get caught up to the team so I don't penalize her for her low starting level past those middle floors.

[SnowFire]

Yeah.  Don't get me wrong, I dislike Nino, but Dhyer's interp is too harsh.  If Nino is 1.0, there are certainly interps that make her a 1.0 where she eats a nasty level penalty early, but not later on.  Basically, pretend Nino joined up at an equivalent level disadvantage but on Floor 1 (so, uh, Level -10 or so, some kind of Amelia situation?!)...  so she's going to be useful by Floor 4 or so when she's eating a lesser level penalty.  I can see interps that have her be behind on level until Floor 8, but that Nino is clearly a 0.0 pick.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I honestly can't think of many Nino interps that would make her worth a 1.0 to me. FE7 isn't as kind to catchup as FE8 is due to some weirdness in its exp formula.

Just running some numbers for my own curiosity, using Snowfire's suggestion... by the conventions used for the equal exp topic (which result in an endgame level of roughly 20/15), average level is 20/3 when Nino joins (generously, it assumes she gets full Exp on her joining map). So I guess I'd see her as 18 levels underlevelled from average when the game starts (average level is 6 at that point, yay Marcus)... i.e. Level -12. Now, running her through the spreadsheet at that level... she hits Level 1 in Chapter 18, and finally catches up to her own starting level of 5 in Chapter 19. She promotes around Chapter 28 and is 20/4 at endgame. So she's... always significantly underlevelled.

The only view of Nino that is worth 1.0 (and indeed, might be better than 1.0, but I'd have to look at what the general value of FE mages in the dungeon is) is one that lets her start with no exp penalty at all as if she joined near the start of the game, and levelled normally from there. Anything else will make her suck. The way she does in-game, fancy that.

Boot Nino

[Nephrite]

What if I replaced Nino with Ewen?

I could also use Erk.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You could probably replace Nino with Lute and nobody would shed tears.

[SnowFire]

Ewan is fine.  Summoner is wacky in the Dungeon but bad anyway so whatever.  Lute's also good, but Ewan's class choice translates better to the Dungeon than Lute's (where movement is of questionable value), so I'd vote for Ewan.  (or both!)

DHE: FE7 is that harsh?  So Nino starts 18 levels behind, and ends up a mere 11 levels behind despite having the whole hypothetical game to play with?  Yikes.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ewan has the same problem as Nino, just not as extreme. I guess that's the point but I just don't think the potential is that amazing to justify someone so bad at first. I guess that's the point, it's a good deal for a small cost later, but eh. How much is Moulder's cost again? I have a hard time not seeing him as better than Ewan in the vast majority of teams.

Snowfire: Yeah. FE7 exp curve is a strange thing. There's actually a penalty for being lower-levelled than your enemy, and while the general rule of "lower levelled = more exp gained" holds, this penalty seriously bites notably underlevelled PCs.

[dude789]

Ewan has the same problem as Nino, just not as extreme. I guess that's the point but I just don't think the potential is that amazing to justify someone so bad at first. I guess that's the point, it's a good deal for a small cost later, but eh. How much is Moulder's cost again? I have a hard time not seeing him as better than Ewan in the vast majority of teams.

Snowfire: Yeah. FE7 exp curve is a strange thing. There's actually a penalty for being lower-levelled than your enemy, and while the general rule of "lower levelled = more exp gained" holds, this penalty seriously bites notably underlevelled PCs.

Equal Experience isn't necessarily how most people play FE games though. Most players know ahead of time whether they're going to use Nino or not ahead of time, and even if they don't if they use Nino they're going to take measures to ensure that Nino catches up to the rest of the team. Equal experience works better in a dual setting where everyone has to be compared to everyone else, but it's not completely indicative of in game use and I think that the dungeon tends to focus more on how characters perform in an in game setting.

Also, BTW Moulder is a .5 pick.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The problem with "in-game meaning grossly favour Nino" is... well, it's not a good measure of in-game use. It's often how she's played because people find it fun to level someone up so quickly, but certainly not objective worth. Notably doing this -does- make the rest of your team worse... or alternatively, favouring anyone in the last few maps as much as such a strategy would favour Nino will make that PC insanely good. Nino's usually considered a bad PC for a reason, see Meeple's rating topic (and that's with our lovable OK giving her an obvious troll rating of 9.4).

Also, BTW Moulder is a .5 pick.

Yeah, I have no idea why Ewan would be valued more highly than Moulder. Lategame Ewan is better, but not dramatically (E. has better offence, but M. has better healing), while earlygame Moulder can heal while Ewan can be some flavour of failure depending on interp. Moulder hasn't proved overpowered for 0.5 so I guess I'm arguing that Nino/Ewan are worth 0. Which... seems reasonable for "bad Fire Emblem character" to me!