Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124093 times)

Random Consonant · « **Reply #925 on:** June 22, 2012, 08:28:06 PM »

I meant that the buffs were ST, not Petrify Grenades. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Also I hardly think Rikku is trivializing the entirety of floors 5-7 *all by herself* either, judging by the comments in past weeks. I for one would certainly love to know how she trivializes an entire floor of status immunes all by herself without others to do the heavy lifting.

Actually, you know what, the point is apparently flying over your head so I'm going to be mean here. This is a character who has been in the dungeon for a while now, from an absurdly well-played and well-documented game, whose two recent appearences in teams prior to this has went over like a lead balloon on *F2*, and people are crying because an apparently well-made team with two 4.0s and someone with Body Charge made it to Floor 7 and is looking at passing that. *Nothing about this is new information, there is no previously unknown cheap trick or gaminess or whatever that has come to light.* You are literally complaining because a team has been successful.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #926 on:** June 22, 2012, 08:47:13 PM »

My only issue with Rikku is that her as a 4.0 has always struck me as bizarre when she is, according to Meeple's running thread, the second least useful PC in FFX. Of course this is because the dungeon exists in fantasy land where it is easy to get enough of her items so that she can always use them - I get that - and the solutions to this (X limit per floor on some items, I dunno) are inelegant.

That said, from a raw power perspective... she doesn't feel overtly more powerful than a few other 4.0's, so I see no reason to retire her just based on that. However, I do agree with Snowfire's comments that a "full heal" should mean a "full reset" which reduces some of the silliness of storing overdrives for boss fights.

Nephrite · « **Reply #927 on:** June 22, 2012, 08:50:15 PM »

There's also the solution of finally just expending values beyond 4.0. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to that, but I'm not even sure if she does warrant a 4.5 cost.

Full Heal working as a reset for Overdrives/Limits I think is a fair thing that I will be pursuing.

Sticking her with the Stoic Overdrive would probably also help.

My making floors better might help too!

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #928 on:** June 23, 2012, 03:49:11 AM »

Rikku pretty much near auto-slammed floors 3 and 7, and most of floor 4. If you are looking for neutralization, no/later gained MT status. I don't think she's too powerful (I mean...Rika was the one that strikes me as absurd late with her buffs that last even after revival), but there are probably a lot of fights that need tailoring too. Since the rocket tag aspect of dungeon hasn't really decreased, someone with awesome turn 1 speed and who can often disable most->to all enemy PCs on turn 1 is going to be really powerful. I would say more bosses/status immune/durability on enemy side would help (Feels like there's been a lot of adding frail, not fast PCs on enemy teams, which aren't exactly a danger).

Only match that I've thought Rikku's limit was reallly going to matter was the final one of floor 4, which isn't after a full heal anyways. Putting on a limit on it may make sense, but in Monkey's case, it has not really been necessary (yet!)

Nephrite · « **Reply #929 on:** June 23, 2012, 04:14:13 AM »

I'm not sure what to really do about the rocket tag aspect. I suppose I could start merging fights so they're more resource-intensive...

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #930 on:** June 23, 2012, 08:51:32 AM »

Quote from: Nephrite on June 23, 2012, 04:14:13 AM

I'm not sure what to really do about the rocket tag aspect. I suppose I could start merging fights so they're more resource-intensive...

I'm not sure the "rocket tag" aspect can be changed. It's just the nature of the dungeon. Even against battles with multiple bosses, it will never be a good idea to split damage between them. It will always be a bum rush to kill one of them first. Just as an example, let's go through Floor 6, which is ONLY bosses.

Kuja and Garland -> These two generally aren't winning much anyways, but Garland is more than likely the one to kill first, because of Stop.
Cloud of Darkness and Xande -> Bum rush Cloud of Darkness and her arms to prevent Bad Breath, and the fight isn't that complicated beyond that.
Sephiroth and Jenova-Birth -> Kill off Sephiroth before he murders too many people, and laugh at Jenova.
Loki and Surt -> Kill off the one with Might Reinforce, and the other one becomes completely manageable.
Lavos and Queen Zeal (Final Forms) -> Bum rush the Central Bit, and this boss duo suddenly struggles to get any lasting damage together.

Even with bosses, speed will always be the biggest factor. I think the only way you can make a fight resource intensive is against a boss that is, by nature, resource intensive (nothing comes up off the top of my head, but there has to be at least a couple of bosses that have crazy healing, or something?).

And, uhh, just to clarify, I'm not advocating for Rikku's retirement. Just looking at it from Neph's side. ^^;

Nephrite · « **Reply #931 on:** June 23, 2012, 03:19:24 PM »

Most Breath of Fire 1 bosses, PS4 bosses and a few others (Dragon Quest?) have respectable health pools and are pretty long slogs.

I could also start adding Radiant Historia bosses, who aren't exactly durable (except for Floating Stairs) but do have other tricks.

I'll start going through things.

dude789 · « **Reply #932 on:** June 24, 2012, 06:27:25 PM »

If we're trying to make the dungeon less rocket taggy, I had an idea for a floor that could help to de-emphasize status and damage. It should probably be a floor where you can choose between one and another. I chose Cloud for this because he has fairly decent damage of both flavors and Ultima Weapon is an incentive to keep him healed up.

Escort Floor:
For this Floor, the party will be joined by Cloud from FF7. He will have his DL setup of Ultima Weapon along with a mastered Ice and Bolt materia. Additionally for this floor, Cloud is the only one who can directly damage enemies. The team can help out in any way they can by buffing Cloud, enchanting his weapon, debuffing enemies and making sure that Cloud survives, but any attacks they do to the enemy will do 0 damage. The party can directly inflict non-fatal status like Silence or Sleep on the enemy, but fatal statuses such as Petrify or status which inflict damage like Poison will not work. The team will lose if Cloud is incapacitated in such a way that the team can not bring him back (such as KO'd with no revival remaining or petrified with no status healing).

I haven't really thought of what to put on the floor, but I think that someone like Xenobia could be a good fit for the last fight of the floor.

Nephrite · « **Reply #933 on:** June 24, 2012, 10:37:33 PM »

That's almost a unique enough idea that I could see a tournament based around that.

Monkeyfinger · « **Reply #934 on:** June 24, 2012, 11:24:09 PM »

Stoic only rikku would pretty much never get an OD. Your full HP is 30% of a stoic bar, IIRC, so unless she were taking a ton of MT attacks that could be healed off, the bar would almost never fill. The standard approach to fighting rikku is already "kill her fast so that no heals can save her, or ignore her".

full reset sounds like the better idea, if only because having an interp call like that floating around is not a good thing.

Random Consonant · « **Reply #935 on:** June 25, 2012, 01:48:56 AM »

Agreed with both points. Stoic is never going to give an OD without healing (full HP is 30% without triple OD, 90% with) unless you allow half-filled limit bars across the board in the dungeon (can't comment on how good an idea that is) and it just changes what the problem is. Full Heal meanwhile is something that there should be a definitive ruling on just for the sake of removing annoying interp calls and making it a full reset or whatever it's going to be termed probably reins in at least some of the silliness.

SnowFire · « **Reply #936 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:28:05 AM »

Just as a minor note, the reason I see Full Heal = Full Reset is because the "point" of Full Heals in my mind is to make it easy to vote on a match - if the team can limp through the earlier fights somehow, no need to worry about the details, just pretend it's fight 1 again. No Full Heal = don't bother thinking about Fight 4 until you know how much damage the team has sustained in Fights 1-3. (Granted, most dungeon teams these days do have at least 2 revivers so the cases where party members are missing is less common, but resource issues can come up, as do stuff like overdrives.) Note also that Full Heals being a Full Reset sometimes makes dungeon teams stronger - Djinn's old Violent Burst Law team under the VBL wording of the time absolutely allowed Limits to start full again after every single Full Heal to me and most voters, IIRC.

Stoic Rikku is a bit wacky. She still can farm overdrives, but now requires someone with the ability to inflict Berserk in the party & lots of cheap healing.

While rocket tag 24/7 is an issue, I'm not really a huge fan of making resource depletion a huge part of the dungeon if for no other reason than it's something that most people gut check which is very hard to plan around. Which is reasonable! Keeping track of MP usage, which is often quite different from in-game usage, isn't exactly fun. (Fair disclosure: Some of my older teams got votes against on grounds of resource depletion when I'd run the numbers and seen that I was pretty much guaranteed fine even given 2x HP respect to enemy teams and the like. And I'm sure the reverse has happened as well where people forgot that there wasn't enough MP to go around and voted pass regardless. It's not something the human computer is that great at.)

I agree that it'd be nice to throw more status-immune PCs into the mix, the problem is doing it in a way that isn't artificial. There are only so many interesting status-immunes to go around, after all, and some of them ram into interp-splits (S3 / S5 Yellow Scarves, VP1 all-status blockers that some see as just hitting 1 status of choice and can break, etc.). Throwing Gilder, Karin, etc. type characters everywhere might make 'em feel overused.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #937 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:05:26 PM »

Just for reference, the following DL PCs immune a large majority of status in their home games and are decent choices for anti-status tanks in the dungeon, aside from bosses.

Nina3, Momo, Nina4, the Chrono Trigger cast, Thursday, Worker 8, Elena (G2), Alfina, Demi, Wren, Saga Frontier mecs, Red, Thunder, Karin, Gilder (does it for entire team).

In addition there are Xenogears, Suikoden 3, Suikoden 5, Radiant Historia, and Mana Khemia which can do it with certain accessories although as Snowfire alludes to these run into more interp difficulties on average (I don't actually know too many people who give the Suikodens blanket status immunity). VP1's is even less allowed on average.

Of course various other casts have access to a good array of blockers (such as FF7 and VP2) but can't necessarily block everything at once in the same way.

dude789 · « **Reply #938 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:31:28 PM »

Pokemon from gen 2 on can give the team status immunity as well with Safeguard. It's not initiative like Gilder's, but it lasts for a few turns instead of just one. (As a bonus, Butterfree learns safeguard so you can drop a Speed? sealstone on it and get a fast status whore who can make your team immune to status for .5 points!)

Nephrite · « **Reply #939 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:16:05 AM »

Some point value shuffling, none of this is set in stone but I'm leaning towards "Yes."

Benjamin to 2.5
Citan to 2.5
Ivan to 2.5 (or just remove, no one's used him)
Nina1 to 2.5
Shadow to 2.5 (Did any of you even know he was still there?)
Ryu1 to 2.5
Nel to 2.0
Cecil to 2.0
Popoi to 2.0
Ninja to 2.0 or 1.5, leaning 2.0. Reasons: Ramza is a 3.0 and Ninja... shouldn't be that close to him.
Chemist to 2.0 - Same as above.
Misturu to 1.5 (or just removed)
FFT Oracle getting axed - No one picks her.
Beowulf to 1.0 - Something something no one picks him.
Ayla to 1.5 - She's not a very good 2.0.
Marle to 1.0 " " 1.5

I was considering dropping Raja back to 1.0 but not allowing the Speed stone to work on him. I don't know if that's too janky of a change.

Also, here are some Sealstone Updates:

Love Love - Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies only to the allied team. (No longer affects enemies, make an all female team today!!!)

Firefly - The first single target attack of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multi-target attacks are not affected. (No longer affects MT targets, this is not a grandfathered change)

Violent Burst Law - Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any other means. Your gauges are not reset when passing through Full Heals. (New change for the Full Heal modification)

Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle. This Sealstone may only be placed on characters with healing spells or abilities. (You can't put it on people without healing abilities)

SnowFire · « **Reply #940 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:46:41 AM »

Most of those changes LGTM. Benjamin at 2.5 is a little scary but probably acceptable given how much people realize speed is the god stat these days and Benjamin being maybe below average, maybe above average depending on how you take MQ averages. Citan is also a bit scary, but eh, he's strong but ultimately fair, and at 3.0 & above you start having a lot of unfair abilities which Citan lacks.

FFT Ninja strikes me as way above the curve for 1.5, and is a reasonably solid choice at 2.0 (Crono with more ST damage but no revival).

Hurray for Ayla & Marle going down in price, they needed it.

Popoi is cool but Change Form is only quasi-legal, right? Did it kill the XP gain? Probably acceptable to reduce his cost since if people don't allow it, lacking a rarely immuned MT Transform effect makes him worse in the later floors.

Nephrite · « **Reply #941 on:** June 28, 2012, 02:53:37 AM »

I wouldn't see Change Form working in the Dungeon.

dude789 · « **Reply #942 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:02:16 AM »

I'd drop Nina4 to a 2.5 as well. She's really not worth 3.0.

Edit: When you say "this is not a grandfathered change" with regards to the Firefly sealstone, is this change going to be enforced with the team I have in right now or just for the teams that are already made but haven't been in yet?

Nephrite · « **Reply #943 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:33:56 AM »

The latter. That's what I meant by it not being grandfathered -- You wouldn't be penalized since yours was in before I made the change.

Nina4... mm, I could see it. Anyone else have opinions on that one?

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #944 on:** June 28, 2012, 05:12:01 AM »

Nina 4 is worthy of a 3 when the full skillset is there, I think (MT Healing, solid revival, awesome speed, status immunity, quite physically hardy for a healer, passable MT damage, Mdef buff). I don't really remember how her skillset develops (I've looked at her as a passable choice for a 3 though). She compares decently enough to Aeonless Yuna, Jerin and Nina 1 by the end.

Certainly no to Ninja at 1.5.

Beowulf...doesn't necessarily like he needs to go down, but rocket tag could make it valid. He's good (and basically starts pretty full), but yeah, the speed is probably why.

Proposed axes are fine. Mitsuru is really select (Have her resist her or she's a horrible choice) and Ivan is really complex.

Everyone else seems generally okay.

dude789 · « **Reply #945 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:43:32 PM »

I think that Nina1 is the stronger of the two in all aspects but damage and even there Nina4 doesn't really excel. Nina1 might have the edge in terms of skillset and the speed advantage doesn't mean much since most of Nina1's stuff is initiative. I remember that someone found out that BoF4 defense was really important so Nina4's physical durability wasn't that good even with the resist and her healing skills are really expensive at times. Yuna is definitely harder to kill because of her evasion and she get's better damage at the end and Jerin has better resources and better buffs.

Yoshiken · « **Reply #946 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:20:10 PM »

I'm completely against removing characters unless they're broken. If nobody's used them, either leave them there (no harm in doing so) or try to change the value to make them viable. No need to remove someone entirely, though - just limits options if you do.
(Also, idly, fairly sure Djinn used Ivan when he first showed up. I remember hating having to vote on him.)

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #947 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:24:20 PM »

Nina4 has solid MT damage starting floor 2 and going up to floor 5 -in addition- to her amazing healing skillset, and I don't think I need to tell why MT damage off high speed rules in the dungeon (even bad MT damage -helps-), and that's something Nina1 will never ever get to contribute with (Jerin can, but Jerin has a bigger rut on her healing and doesn't have the equipment options). She loses in durability, but wins pretty hard at that niche. Not to mention she has better effective durability than Nina1 (better evade and mdur, comparable pdur), gets MT healing earlier... not to mention Nina4's healing is only expensive if you're insanely inefficient. Rejuvenate is basically full healing for the whole game and that's cheap as -fuck-, and Heal itself is full healing until Rejuvenate kicks in. Vigor is complete overkill for MT healing, the works. She is decidedly worse than Jerin, I want to say, but considering Jerin is one of Heavy's best healer slots to have, I really can't say that's a bad place to be in.

I'd be in favor of removing Ivan simply because how many dungeon voters even played GS -and- have the energy to wade through his inane complexity? Otherwise, he just sits there.

Nephrite · « **Reply #948 on:** June 28, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »

Ivan was also someone Djinn suggested in the first place, so it comes as little surprise to me that he used him.

The others I can see leaving alone... maybe just drop Mitsuru half a point.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #949 on:** June 29, 2012, 07:10:35 AM »

Quote from: Yoshiken on June 28, 2012, 01:20:10 PM

I'm completely against removing characters unless they're broken. If nobody's used them, either leave them there (no harm in doing so) or try to change the value to make them viable. No need to remove someone entirely, though - just limits options if you do.
(Also, idly, fairly sure Djinn used Ivan when he first showed up. I remember hating having to vote on him.)

If someone pulls poor voting numbers, that's a pretty good reason to remove them I'd think. Remember, for the actual teammates it's not good enough to just check a stat topic... you also have to roughly know how the character functions at various points of the game. So yeah, Ivan sounds a little questionable between his complexity and (I would assume, though am admittedly not certain) GS probably being one of the lower-played games among dungeon voters.

Beowulf's another one of those oddities... in-game he joins with no skillset at all and has to start picking it up on floor 5ish. Would that mean he has almost no skillset until then in the dungeon? Surely not if he's a 1.5. I guess it's assumed Beowulf has been sharked in and starts picking up JP immediately at Level 1, which is fine but not completely true to in-game.

Quote from: dude789 on June 28, 2012, 12:43:32 PM

I think that Nina1 is the stronger of the two in all aspects but damage and even there Nina4 doesn't really excel. Nina1 might have the edge in terms of skillset and the speed advantage doesn't mean much since most of Nina1's stuff is initiative. I remember that someone found out that BoF4 defense was really important so Nina4's physical durability wasn't that good even with the resist and her healing skills are really expensive at times. Yuna is definitely harder to kill because of her evasion and she get's better damage at the end and Jerin has better resources and better buffs.

Nina1 has no MT healing, nor MT damage (which as Snow mentioned, helps in sweeping enemies). She also lacks Nina4's eventual status immunity. Yuna also lacks all those things (though her blockers are better than Nina1's at least), though has her own very powerful buffs, some evasion, and incredibly deep resources. My kneejerk is that Nina4 is considerably more valuable than Nina1 and her vs. Yuna would depend on what your team needs.

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Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124093 times)