Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124154 times)

Talaysen · « **Reply #1125 on:** September 22, 2012, 05:08:12 PM »

Quote from: Clear Tranquil on September 22, 2012, 01:03:45 AM

Bit late but yeeah I'm sure people don't actually let the likes of Lenneth, etc start the dungeon at L60 or whatever it is she joins at in game >_> At least not for health stats~

VP2 Lenneth? I do. I don't see why you shouldn't? Using something else is literally "making shit up" because it can't happen in-game. She joins at level 60 or whatever and is scaled to whatever the rest of the PCs look like at that point.

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #1126 on:** September 22, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »

Quote from: Talaysen on September 22, 2012, 05:08:12 PM

Quote from: Clear Tranquil on September 22, 2012, 01:03:45 AM
Bit late but yeeah I'm sure people don't actually let the likes of Lenneth, etc start the dungeon at L60 or whatever it is she joins at in game >_> At least not for health stats~

VP2 Lenneth? I do. I don't see why you shouldn't? Using something else is literally "making shit up" because it can't happen in-game. She joins at level 60 or whatever and is scaled to whatever the rest of the PCs look like at that point.

If that's the case, Lenneth > Athos in just about every way as a dungeon pick, despite the fact that the former is 3.0, and the latter is 3.5.
Although I haven't played Valkyrie Profile, so I might be missing something about Lenneth. =P

dude789 · « **Reply #1127 on:** September 22, 2012, 07:22:08 PM »

I think Tal is saying that he takes Lenneth compared to how she joins in-game compared to other characters at that point. So she joins at level 60, but is compared to other level 60 characters. She basically stays static until her join time on floor 6 or 7.

Athos on the other hand is an exception to the normal late joining rule. Rather than comparing him to endgame characters, he compares to characters at the time of the floor which makes him much more powerful on the early floors and it scales down to decent on the last few. It's a special rule for Athos to make him a more interesting and dynamic pick compared to other FE characters. Lenneth's skillset is varied enough that she doesn't need to be scaled this way to be interesting and if she was she would probably be a 4.0 easily.

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #1128 on:** September 22, 2012, 08:26:25 PM »

Quote from: dude789 on September 22, 2012, 07:22:08 PM

I think Tal is saying that he takes Lenneth compared to how she joins in-game compared to other characters at that point. So she joins at level 60, but is compared to other level 60 characters. She basically stays static until her join time on floor 6 or 7.

Athos on the other hand is an exception to the normal late joining rule. Rather than comparing him to endgame characters, he compares to characters at the time of the floor which makes him much more powerful on the early floors and it scales down to decent on the last few. It's a special rule for Athos to make him a more interesting and dynamic pick compared to other FE characters. Lenneth's skillset is varied enough that she doesn't need to be scaled this way to be interesting and if she was she would probably be a 4.0 easily.

Ahh, alright. Thank you for clearing that up.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1129 on:** September 26, 2012, 11:51:38 PM »

Just wanted to finalise my team as Peppita, Fang (Neo Speed), Vanille, Mesarthim and Priest

I can't remember whether dude said Speed? or Neo Speed would be the best Seal Stone for Fang though~

dude789 · « **Reply #1130 on:** September 27, 2012, 12:10:52 AM »

It was Neo Speed. In most cases Neo Speed is the better choice unless the character in question is spectacularly slow or you have some turn shift shenanigans that Neo Speed would interfere with.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1131 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:27:09 PM »

Thanks dude

I think the base groundwork on this is sound enough for my team to get through the first few floors. Neph could you change it to Peppita/Fang(Neo Speed)/Vanille/Mesarthim/Priest in the OP?

Nitori · « **Reply #1132 on:** October 03, 2012, 09:54:18 PM »

alright guys it's cool

i got this

Emma (1.5)
Bartz (Thief) (4)
Gastly (1.5)
Gilder (1.5)
Pikachu (1.5)

Nall (1)

Press Turn sealstone

Nephrite · « **Reply #1133 on:** October 08, 2012, 03:04:40 AM »

Regarding the topic of Speed? and NeoSpeed, Dhyer provided me with two suggestions for them that I think are pretty neat, but would like to get feedback on.

[21:53] <Nephrite> Do you have any thoughts on what I could do to balance the two speed-increasing sealstones besides removing them entirely?
[21:54] <Dhyerwolf> Hmm, NeoSpeed should probably not have as potent a boost. It was designed to get better as time goes on, right?
[21:55] <Nephrite> Correct. I did recently change it to 20% rather than 25% per turn.
[21:55] <Dhyerwolf> If so, make it +10%/+25%/+45%/+70%/Doubled
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> Speed? at the very least should revert after turn 1, but can make solidly slow people fast for that one boost.
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> As is, it's permanent, so no question mark is needed.

I like the idea of Speed? reverting after the first turn, it fits in line better with why I originally called it what I did. NeoSpeed I'm fine with getting a smaller boost to start and greater gains after subsequent turns (and maybe changing it to not immediately work before the person gets a turn? Ehh.)

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #1134 on:** October 08, 2012, 03:27:12 AM »

I did initially think the idea for Neo Speed was to kick in upon them getting their first turn! (That said, dungeon is still rocket tag, so it should at least have some turn 1 boost).

Talaysen · « **Reply #1135 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:11:47 PM »

Quote from: Nephrite on October 08, 2012, 03:04:40 AM

Regarding the topic of Speed? and NeoSpeed, Dhyer provided me with two suggestions for them that I think are pretty neat, but would like to get feedback on.

[21:53] <Nephrite> Do you have any thoughts on what I could do to balance the two speed-increasing sealstones besides removing them entirely?
[21:54] <Dhyerwolf> Hmm, NeoSpeed should probably not have as potent a boost. It was designed to get better as time goes on, right?
[21:55] <Nephrite> Correct. I did recently change it to 20% rather than 25% per turn.
[21:55] <Dhyerwolf> If so, make it +10%/+25%/+45%/+70%/Doubled
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> Speed? at the very least should revert after turn 1, but can make solidly slow people fast for that one boost.
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> As is, it's permanent, so no question mark is needed.

I like the idea of Speed? reverting after the first turn, it fits in line better with why I originally called it what I did. NeoSpeed I'm fine with getting a smaller boost to start and greater gains after subsequent turns (and maybe changing it to not immediately work before the person gets a turn? Ehh.)

I think Speed? should probably give a bigger speed boost in that case. Or maybe just have it grant initiative, but the user has an extra delay to their next turn (50%? 100%?).

The NeoSpeed suggestion looks good. I think it should give a boost turn 1 since the dungeon is all about rocket tag. If not, then the bonuses should be more potent since it kind of sucks at those numbers if the 10% isn't given for turn 1.

The big thing is that one should be a better boost on turn 1, while the other has a bigger long term boost. Though different base speeds make it a bit hard to balance.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1136 on:** October 08, 2012, 09:11:55 PM »

Please let's not have a lookup chart for NeoSpeed. There should be a simple and memorable rubric. +20% speed per turn, works on the first turn, is simple and clean. Also, to keep Speed? competitive, it probably should remain "on" for later turns... although making it be something awesome like 130% speed turn 1 only might also work. (But that also might be a bit scary, since if someone picks it over NeoSpeed they're up to no good.)

Also, I'm not totally opposed to having Speed / NeoSpeed / Body Charge be really good, mostly since they at least give Firefly a run for its money that way. If anything I might consider buffing some of the other sealstones - say, get rid of the drawback on Life, perhaps.

Talaysen · « **Reply #1137 on:** October 09, 2012, 07:18:04 AM »

Buffing the sealstones that aren't as used is a good idea, yes.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #1138 on:** October 09, 2012, 08:14:29 AM »

At 20% boost turn 1, Speed is the best sealstone generally. Even 15% is a bit potent overall turn 1, but at least better than 20% if needed (Also, everything needs to be mathed out anyways, so making Speed increase isn't a big deal calc wise). Firefly is good, but speed is the dungeon MVP stat. Dungeon is also rocket tag, so having Speed? continuously boost speed makes it too good. If higher than 120%, it depends on whether you absolutely want to make someone with the seal stone outspeed everyone turn 1 (My gut is no, that truly fast enemies should still go first).

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1139 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:39:29 AM »

Since we're talking about buffing underused sealstones, does Multitarget still exist? I have an idea about it.

Multitarget: Allows the bearer to multitarget, on choice, his/her attacks or skills, but the multitargeted action suffers a 33% penalty on its effectiveness (an attack deals 33% less damage, status skills are 33% less accurate even if they are perfect hit rate, buffs raise the stats 33% less, healing is reduced by 33%, invincibility such as Copper Flesh reduces damage by 66% rather than immune). Untargettable attacks and turn-shifting effects are not affected by this sealstone.

I think both reducing the harshness of the effect nerf and allowing the PC whether he/she wants to use it or not greatly raise the viability of the sealstone, making it an interesting choice rather than a Sophie's choice deal. YMMV.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #1140 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:07:25 AM »

Hmm, both nerfing the hit and letting it be choosable may make it a bit good (as is it's 50% reduction, and MT attacks just stay as normal). I prefer a lesser effect penalty but keeping that it has to be MT regardless myself (but then I also tend to think sealstones are more interesting with some drawbacks).

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1141 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:29:29 AM »

Considering the level of the competition the other sealstones have to go through with the top-tier ones, I'm fine with it being a bit on the good side. I agree with you that sealstones are more interesting when they have clearer and stronger drawbacks, but I think the effectiveness reduction is a fair drawback as is considering the context. Multitarget, as it stands, is near-useless. I'd honestly be more amenable to the effect being halved, but MTing choosable.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1142 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:03:09 AM »

I think the forced MT is an important drawback in and of itself, but perhaps a reduction of 33% would be fine.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1143 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:12:09 AM »

At least, a 33% reduction gives it a niche for people like, say, Emily, who can start doling out MT low 2HKOs off that speed at will. Also, is Multitarget shuffle-friendly? I think that'd be very good for the sealstone.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1144 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:18:57 AM »

I am 100% okay with that one being movable.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1145 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:22:12 AM »

I'd be okay with forced MT, 33% reduction, shufflable Multitarget, then.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1146 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:50:32 AM »

How about this for NeoSpeed: 10% base increase in speed, then a 20% increase, per turn taken capping out at 200% (so the last one is really only 10%). The same restrictions apply in that if the person is killed they lose all the speed bonuses. I think I'll say that the speed also can't be increased by anything, regardless.

And this for Speed?: Turn one speed is 130%, however after that turn is taken the character is reduced to 90% of their average speed. I'm not sure if I need to put the speed increasing penalties on this.

dude789 · « **Reply #1147 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:08:17 AM »

Since we're discussing sealstones, here's an idea I've been mulling over. If it get traction we can hash it out to finesse and balance it a bit more.

Crisis Sealstone: At the start of every fight the teams HP is reduced to "crisis" level for the purposes of activating abilities such as Cover, Red Zone, Limits etc. If there are multiple crisis levels, the characters hp will be reduced to the lowest level. Characters from games without a crisis level will have their health reduced to 25%. Additionally, the first hit of damage that a character takes in a fight cannot reduce them below 1 HP.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1148 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:32:32 AM »

That sounds very difficult to balance around. Why yes let me stick Cloud w/Cover in my team, let him open with a free Blade Beam each fight, and then make it take 2 hits to actually kill him. And Ayla now gets free Dino Tails of MTy Doom and when somebody is faster, it doesn't matter because she takes 2 hits too. Maybe throw Cecil in and whoo yet another person that must be chopped down via auto-Cover before the real targets can be hit. Of course two MT pokes means sure doom for the team if they somehow go off, so... that sealstone is really wacky, since scrubby fights like Crono + Nina3 + Jude are dangerous, as are very tanky bosses who can't be blitzed and have multi-acting MT, but anything else dies horribly.

It's not a bad idea, but having it affect the entire party + Focus Sash that doesn't require full HP effect is kind of egregious. Instead I'd recommend something like:
Crisis Sealstone: At the beginning of each fight, the equipped party member this is on is reduced to X% health as if by enemy damage. Pick X on Floor 1, it can't be changed (though the Sealstone can be moved.)

That still seems decent, and the fact that there are only a few characters it makes sense with isn't as much an issue since it only affects 1 person! It still means initiative limits / turns for FF7 characters, the Ayla dropping Dino Tails at high speed strategy mentioned above, but at least the holder can still be KO'd fair and square.

Re general sealstone philosophy, I agree that there's something to be said for attempting to balance around a "neutral" no-sealstone as the default, the Dungeon's moved away from that and it never really was true. Even the really old inverting Speed? was basically a pure buff that was just limited to going on very slow characters. So yeah, go buff the MT sealstone.

Neph, I note with dismay that Elincia STILL is not a legal pick in the Dungeon.

dude789 · « **Reply #1149 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:36:53 AM »

With regards to FF7ers, I was thinking more of FF8 and FF6 when I mentioned Limits. I wouldn't see the hp reduction as filling FF7 or Lufia 2 style limit bars.

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Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules (Read 124154 times)