Author Topic: New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules  (Read 124345 times)

Talaysen

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1275 on: November 21, 2012, 11:50:00 PM »
The only way I could disagree more with you would be if you were trying to extoll the moral virtues of slavedriving to me (disregard the venom, it's merely rhetoric). With the no-equip change clause, you have situations like "oh they have a thunder-walling equip and a fire-walling equip and there are two different fights where they want one but not another and NOW I'LL HAVE TO MULCH WHICH OF THEM THEY WANT MORE OH WAIT IN WHICH OTHER FIGHTS THE STATS OF THESE ARE RELEVANT". With changable equips on a battle-per-battle basis, this situation becomes "the PC handles both fights, the effects on stats are reduced to -this- fight, move on". In practice, no equip changing makes battles more complicated rather than simpler because macromanagement is far less intuitive and far more long-reaching than micromanagement.

this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1276 on: November 22, 2012, 06:13:13 AM »
Oh yeah, I dropped Yosuke by half a point to 1.5.

Teddie I think is still good there since he starts with Mediarama and Bufula.

Tide

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1277 on: November 22, 2012, 07:13:05 AM »
Boring Cover Cloud build MK#whatever

Cloud (3.5)
Geno (3.0)
Elincia (2.5) (Multi-target)
Yulie (1.5)
Priest (0.5)

Pretty simple. MT can be moved around on Geno/Elincia/Yulie/Cloud as needed. The idea was to work with MT Elincia because Amiti is lolbroke. Cloud covers for peeps and even takes BOW SHOTS?! Added advantage of Geno being able to quickly boost someone for added defensive padding is always good. Elincia/Cloud/Priest can also get some status restoration in there and there's plenty of healing revival, although that's not Elincia's real purpose.

ALTERNATIVELY...

Yu (4)
Yuna (3)
Arnaud (2) (MT)
Raynie (1)
Yukari (1)

Depending on how Mind Charge/Power Charge work with MT, might go with this team instead. Yuna/Yu/Arnaud are the crux of the team with the bevy of support options. Yu has massive physical damage which he can pick up early. If he has to take a weakness, Yuna can usually cover for him 75% of the time. MT Slow Down is still insane at reduced effectiveness. Seriously. At end game, it drops people to 58% of their speed, which means its effectiveness early is even greater. Also, there's MT Illusion and MT Shutout for defensive options. MT Hyper would usually be awesome, but loses quite a bit with this mage heavy team. Raynie's got some additional magic damage and some MP recovery, which is an added bonus. Yukari is a third healer, and has some MT damage.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 07:44:35 AM by Tide »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1278 on: November 22, 2012, 09:41:06 AM »
Cloud doesn't get Cover anymore, I thought?

@Yoshiken: I like the idea behind your team, I'm just concerned that you are going to come across a single status-slinger and die horribly. Perhaps consider replacing NulShock with Delta Shield?

Equipment-wise... for flavor reasons, I agree with SnowFire. However, I already find myself kneejerking more dungeon voting based on DL Knowledge of "What this PC blocks with their entire equipment set", not just "The general default best option"... So I'm probably supporting Jo'ou already without realizing it.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1279 on: November 22, 2012, 05:57:57 PM »
Neph, is Dhyer's last team slated somewhere to be used? If it's not the case, here's the team:

Dorothy (3.5)
Body Charged Porom and Palom (3)
Terra (2.5)
Crono (2)
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1280 on: November 22, 2012, 06:02:07 PM »
Neph, is Dhyer's last team slated somewhere to be used? If it's not the case, here's the team:

Dorothy (3.5)
Body Charged Porom and Palom (3)
Terra (2.5)
Crono (2)

Dhyer wanted to postpone it until he found some things about Dorothy that I don't know if he ever found out.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1281 on: November 22, 2012, 06:03:48 PM »
Do you remember which things? >_> Maybe those were cracked already.

EDIT: Man I'm nosy.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 06:25:08 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1282 on: November 22, 2012, 07:50:39 PM »
Something about Dorothy's Overclock, I think.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1283 on: November 22, 2012, 08:48:28 PM »
Turn order is defined before the round's beginning in WAoO, so the speed boost doesn't apply for the turn it's cast. This I tested somewhat extensively. For the boost itself, I -suspect- it's based off Dorothy's magic score, but it's very potent regardless: after casting it, I had Dorothy getting all her four turns before Delphi's first, for instance. Those are all the issues I can think of one could normally bring up, but Dhyer could say better.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1284 on: November 23, 2012, 12:00:36 AM »
I am going to be boosting up Marco to 2.5 and see how that goes.

Also, I may be repricing the P4 folks with Golden out. They get a lot of new skills but all of them keep their weaknesses.

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1285 on: November 23, 2012, 12:25:50 AM »
2.5 seems a bit too much - Stocke at 2.0 has the same kind of game (via Switch rather than Trans-Turn, the downside to Switch is not TOO bad) and he's faster and tankier.  I guess he misses out on MT status healing & Marco's sleep game, but Push Assault > Grapple in the Dungeon usually, and he has his own Fire damage for variety if he doesn't want to hand his turn over.

If Marco gets a price hike, I'd say 2.0 to him & Raynie and Stocke to 2.5.  (That said, there are lots of combos that go off really well with Jane, so I'm not sure that should totally be held against him.)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1286 on: November 23, 2012, 12:59:53 AM »
To Snowfire: I'm pretty sure you're the only person who actually allows turn swapping in the Dungeon that I know, and, considering the characters' general pricing, I've been generally assuming they don't get to do it in the Dungeon either unless they're swapping turns with other members of their own cast (otherwise, they'd all require pricing changes). If Neph explicitly enforced the ability to use swapping, I'd consider it as well, but I honestly think he's more likely to take the opposite stance.

Also, there's a fundamental difference between Switching and Trans-turning: Marco in practice gives any other given PC a -second- turn, while the other RHers simply swap turn orders. This is quite a bit more potent than you'd think.

EDIT: P4G repricing honestly is kinda pointless unless the entire playership carries over.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:48:28 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1287 on: November 23, 2012, 01:04:33 AM »
Again, I think you're being too reactionary with the changes. Marco has been good, but not overpowered at a 1.5. 2.0 is probably more appropriate, but 2.5 is way overpriced. As for RH turn shifting, I'd allow them to swap turns with other characters who have turn shuffling parts in their battle system like BoF4 or some of the WA games.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1288 on: November 23, 2012, 01:56:22 AM »
I'll try 2.0 then.

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1289 on: November 23, 2012, 02:42:39 AM »
Jo'ou, can you please clarify why you're "pretty sure" that no one agrees with me?  Dark Holy Elf has said that he's not a fan of allowing Switching and I can't recall anyone else.  The stat topic strongly advocates Switching, it's a core mechanic of RH, and people have generally allowed switching in Futurama / CK's tourney / other random tournies like the team tourney.  Certainly Eruca doing so well in Middle twice requires Switch hype for her strategy to work.  Anyway, if voters (most voters?) have allowed switching on enemies, they darn well better allow switching on friends.  I'd rather RH characters have their price hiked if need be (and I'm not sure such a need exists) and actually function like they do in-game then to have Switch turned off.  It's far from overpowered for most teams, anyway, just it obviously works well with Jane.

As for Marco vs. Stocke, Switch & Trans-Turn are identical if you're willing to eat the defense penalty.  Stocke switches with Raquel or whatever, Stocke's turn at Raquel's init rolls around, Stocke switches with Raquel's next turn.  End effect: Raquel gets 2 turns at the two character's initiatives, which is the same as what would happen if Marco Trans-Turn'd to Raquel.  (Okay, and Trans-Turn is a spell, so it can be MT'd by the MT floor, eaten by Runic, etc.)

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1290 on: November 23, 2012, 04:25:27 AM »
swirltch is much more limited in the dungeon. it only looks 10(?) turns into the future. switching means that the strat you mentioned before may work once, but you MUST let the target get natural turns after that or there will be no instances of that PC to switch to!

trans turn is much better for it. especially when the dungeon has as many as 10 fighters in a battle.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1291 on: November 23, 2012, 06:44:22 AM »
I'm not a fan of switching the dungeon at all myself. One of these things were it feels like the game playing (and certainly don't think it's being priced in. Stocke is a 2 because of durable early revival with solid MT options. Dungeon has shown that strong early revival is an awesome thing).

I wanted to test out the speed boost. If it doesn't work turn 1, I think the main synergy my team had going is gone.

Still "mehish" on equip switching myself. I was always thinking about random fights where you don't know what's coming up next (I also places more emphasis on people with single status blocking). But just my random thoughts.
...into the nightfall.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1292 on: November 23, 2012, 08:24:40 AM »
Lilka's speed buff is the only tb speed buff that I know of which works turn 1. It can now be made MT via sealstone for chibi Follow Me! with the rest of Lillas benefits.

Switch is like FE counters as far as I am concerned. only theew are fewer RHers and it is an INTERESTING trick instead of a quite frankly cheap and boring one. And like I said it is only good turn 1 if that.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1293 on: November 23, 2012, 11:57:56 AM »
Jo'ou, can you please clarify why you're "pretty sure" that no one agrees with me?  Dark Holy Elf has said that he's not a fan of allowing Switching and I can't recall anyone else.  The stat topic strongly advocates Switching, it's a core mechanic of RH, and people have generally allowed switching in Futurama / CK's tourney / other random tournies like the team tourney.

Quote from: Jo'ouRanbu
I'm pretty sure you're the only person who actually allows turn swapping in the Dungeon that I know

Emphasis mine. For all that now that Pyro votes in the Dungeon, he's the second person I know who allows it - and the two of you are the only people I can think of who openly advocate for the relevance of switching in either a Dungeon or a DL environment.

Regardless, Dungeon voting and DL voting are two different beasts. I couldn't care less about how a PC in the DL fared in a tournament for gauging in-Dungeon performance, and all the anedoctal evidence on voting patterns I've seen -in-Dungeon- certainly doesn't show me turn-swapping as an empirically touted factor either (even on the RH fight on floor 3 that was Bluelike-broken, it was a complete non-factor. What broke the string was the fact there were two Trans-turners and two revivers, making for an easy Overdrive loop that's very hard to stop). -However-, I will put forward that I'm with Dhyer regarding allowing turn-swapping for Radiant Historia characters. It's a characteristic of their system, not of the characters themselves. I'm okay with allowing them to turn-swap with characters from their cast and/or enemies of the game, but not with any other PC/enemy. I don't give the entire party FE counters and doubles because Lyn is on the team. I don't allow Dorothy's entire party of Suikoden/FF/SoA PCs to hide in the back row while she hogs all the turns (while I'd force her to share ratio with Strawman if both of them were in the same team). I don't even allow SH2 PCs to combo with SH3 PCs (let alone comboing into people of random casts), and SH2-3 share quite a few similarities in that particular mechanic.

I'll also note I've -never- seen you advocate stuff like Ricardo comboing into, say, Raquel, which makes the adamant defense for RH swapping -weirder-. RH's the only cast I've seen you defend as getting to share that kind of system mechanic with other casts.

EDIT: As an addendum to FE counters, the reason I ultimately don't see them like Tally does (both ends counter and are countered) ends up being the fact that basically -every game ever- has its own counter mechanics (Suikoden has its evade & counter measures tied to cast mechanics and skills in specific games, character-specific counters in most other games, etc.), in which case I won't have FE overrule -their- own systems. It does work on FE's favor most of the time, but them's the breaks.

Quote from: Snowfire
As for Marco vs. Stocke, Switch & Trans-Turn are identical if you're willing to eat the defense penalty.

Not even close. If Marco did that+Trans-turning, Raquel would still have more turns than if Stocke swapped turns with her, because Marco -transforms his own turns into someone else's with no jeopardy to the other character's already scheduled turns-.   
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:56:57 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!
« Reply #1294 on: November 23, 2012, 03:48:44 PM »
Snow the correct analog to what you are sayingis FE pcs only countering other FE chars, which no one does.

Carrying on with this, do folks allow defend commans in the dungeon? I mentioned before that Benjamin can cover another PC with his... do people consider him capable of doing that?
 
But like I said, switching only emulates trans turn once or so. after that you have to wait for the guy you want to switch in to have natural turns show up again in the turn order. I suppose you could scale the turn bar to be 15 instead of 10 to account for larger teams but the core problem remains the same.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1295 on: November 23, 2012, 03:57:30 PM »
Quote from: Pyro
Snow the correct analog to what you are sayingis FE pcs only countering other FE chars, which no one does.

Covered by the fact that counter mechanics of -some- sort exist in more or less every game ever and I don't throw them out either.

Carrying on with this, do folks allow defend commans in the dungeon? I mentioned before that Benjamin can cover another PC with his... do people consider him capable of doing that?

I personally only allow the unique aspects of defending in a certain cast (LoD's status immunity+10% Regen, BoF4's evade boost, so on), which is analog to how I view defending in the DL. I've never seen anyone coming up with defending in the Dungeon (and honestly, if it -did-, enemies could actually act on it themselves as well. If this starts coming up, holy hell this -will- make fights more convoluted and difficult), though.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1296 on: November 23, 2012, 04:15:43 PM »
I have no objections to RH characters turn-swapping with other RH characters.

I also have no objections to Ben's Defend command being used to cover someone since it can only be used on one character.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1297 on: November 23, 2012, 04:46:07 PM »
Not going to convince you on switching. The FE thing still amuses me but it always has.

I think defend coming up would be tops for interesting fights.

Revivers could defend to tank a bit until they are needed. Some folks could use it to build FP/Limits under an MT assault. Firefly users could tank it up (see Snow with firefly just recently). This adds a strategy layer and makes dungeon fights less rocket taggy! Good stuff.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1298 on: November 23, 2012, 04:52:59 PM »
On the one hand, I feel more inclined to agree with the idea of enemies having to face -your- defend commands (like enemies have to in-game!). The flipside is that I'm not very happy with the idea of the Dungeon enemies themselves getting to whore it out due to how it'll inevitably benefit them more than the players, and they already have the advantages of counting with other fights in retrospect to ultimately bring a team down along with getting endgame setups throughout early and midgame.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Talaysen

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Pick a Team, Rules & Brainstorming topic (New teams!!)
« Reply #1299 on: November 23, 2012, 06:41:53 PM »
-However-, I will put forward that I'm with Dhyer regarding allowing turn-swapping for Radiant Historia characters. It's a characteristic of their system, not of the characters themselves. I'm okay with allowing them to turn-swap with characters from their cast and/or enemies of the game, but not with any other PC/enemy. I don't give the entire party FE counters and doubles because Lyn is on the team. I don't allow Dorothy's entire party of Suikoden/FF/SoA PCs to hide in the back row while she hogs all the turns (while I'd force her to share ratio with Strawman if both of them were in the same team). I don't even allow SH2 PCs to combo with SH3 PCs (let alone comboing into people of random casts), and SH2-3 share quite a few similarities in that particular mechanic.

Those analogs (outside the SH one) don't even work because in letting RH people switch, you are not letting other characters from other games use the switch command as well (and if you are then wtf).  They are just getting the benefit of an RH character's skill, no different from something like a heal or buff.

Also, RH switches are a PC only mechanic, not a mechanic on both ends like FE.  That's a big difference.

Anyway I allow switching on the rare occasion that I vote, but I'm usually too lazy to do that unless a tiebreak is needed or something.