New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Clear Tranquil]

Thanks Snow

So White Rose would be relying on nuke potential/Charm/Phantasm Beast hype again for the MT floor? I guess the same goes for the Mystic Boots/etc coup de grace skills as for Flashflood?~

LightSword parry/evade effect sounds really cool, I'll have to fiend on ideas/set ups for that.

Random thoughts -

*After seeing the potentially catastrophic results/potential of Switch on the MT floor I'm afraid I'm going to have to re-evaluate my opinion on the extent of how/much whether or not I allow it. I agree with Snow that Switch wasn't even the main issue but it didn't help. In general though I thought about allowing it before but only by RH characters on other RH characters but yeah. Otherwise oh god Aht speed and/or hey Stocke isn't a slow dude and he can take a hit, good luck finishing him before he can Switch it up to someone else for shenanigans, yeaah =P

*Defend Commands - Sure, I'll allow unique stuffs like HP/MP/etc Regen, evade boosting defensive gimmicks, status resists, etc (LoD has the status resist thing as well but it doesn't get instant death if I remember right so it's not foolproof) Also allowing unique Sentinel stuff like damage reduction from Fringeward (and Improved Fringewards - Snow), role bonus, etc from FFXIII to translate to the dungeon and MT Steelguard/Mediguard on the MT floor since it's still a unique skill tied to a class/specific characters (even eventually in game with secondary roles some characters like Lightning/Hope never get Steelguard, etc at any time regardless if I remember right) and characters seem to be allowed to use non targetable stuff on the MT floor in general really, well with characters getting to MT all types of skills they wouldn't usually be able to do so, works. It's a sort of liberal, imagination becomes reality type floor ^_^

Universal defence commands or character in back row - damage reduction type defends like in the FF series I'm not so sure on. There is the argument that the likes of Garnet/Eiko, Aerith, etc are usually in the back row/it reflects their type of in game play styles so they should be allowed it in the dungeon but then you could be a CT w/th stuffs like physical twinks on Eiko/Aerith and having them in the front row  Another type of character defending which is kind of head scratchy is Star Ocean 3's Guard Aura system or Tales of Graces F's own type of Guard Aura system, after finishing ToGF dunno what I'm going to do about that in the DL/dungeon yet. On the other hand SO3's more offensive/unique defensive gimmicks/playstyles/etc like Peppita/Albel's counters I do allow (even between them they are unique/differentiate in abilies, Peppita has two types of counter compared to Albel's one for example, her second one has longer invincibility frames, added MP damage, higher chaos status odds and mild GT compared to his but his takes him behind the enemy/he can chain from his counter O into an X physical attack/battle skills while Peppita's counter X is shorter in duration to her counter O, less invincibility frames, MP damage and lower chance of chaos rate she can chain her counter X into counter O battle skills or dances say Power Dance for say an extended invincibility duration with Counter X - Dance (since both counters and dances have invincibility frames built in)

General Counter Thoughts - On the other hand stuff like Universal counter attacks like also with regards to Tales of Graces (everyone can equip counter type titles I think) or stuffs like Stun, HP/Regen/etc Guard Aura type abilities like that triggering off SO3's Guard Aura system I'm not so sure on. Inclined to say no but will have to think more on this. Other stuffs like Fang's unique counter game with her Improved Counter weapons is a go yes though!~

[Yoshiken]

Can't comment at all on RH, and I don't really vote on the Dungeon much now, but I've always allowed Defend commands. As far as I see, it's just a basic skill, much like a normal attack.

[Dhyerwolf]

New Team:

Synergy Bonus

Nina, Ryu, Scias, Ursula, Cray, Ershin

Start with and have 3 out, subbing mechanism. Magic combos allowed. Can alter speed in the same setup manner that BoF 4 characters can in game. Granted, wipe out if front row wipes and obvious limitations on damage output and targets. We'll see how well this one goes!

Edit: Informed that actually need all 6 to die on full front wipe, so that's helpful.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Guessing you get teh Ershins as a bonus? Should be fun to see how well the team pans out.

[SnowFire]

Jo'ou: I think Talaysen mostly covered my response.  Not really sure where you're going with your logic, but then "legality" is a misty idea in everyone's heads, so that's probably understandable.  I do let FE Lyn get counters but don't magically let other (EDIT:non-) non-FE characters get counters; I let Stocke switch but don't let Ramza switch (because as Tal notes WTF).  I certainly don't let SH3 characters combo with characters from other systems (although I *would* probably let them do it with SH2 characters), but combos are a different beast anyway.  SH3 combos are a cooperative command that is "both" character's command for the turn, so there needs to be a reason that the 2nd character in the pair can join in a sensible fashion.  RH switch is not cooperative at all.  It is one character forcibly swapping turns with another and is 100% the RH PC command; no need for the other character to "agree" on the swap or anything.  Proof: It works on enemies!  I don't think RH enemies are "agreeing" somehow to be swapped, or are teaming up with the RH PC for the switch command!  In other words, PCs switching with PCs isn't something that the 2nd PC can *stop* (even if the 2nd PC was hypothetically Charm'd or something).  It's just the first PC doing the switch and then it happens.

Now if you want to say Switch shouldn't be legal because you're Elf and think that the entire cast having the command makes it not unique enough, then fine.  There's no way to agree on what quite qualifies there, but I don't think the mechanical argument you're using fits.

On related notes, I generally allow Defend commands myself, with the asterisk that I also try and hew to the "standard" DL interp of characters in the Dungeon, and Defend commands traditionally have been banned by a lot of voters for whatever reason.  Regardless Defend commands tend to spoil bosses who have some blatantly telegraphed charge-up attack you're supposed to Defend through in-game, and if that attack sucks in-Dungeon thanks to allowing Defend, I'm cool with that.  The one main case I'd definitely enforce a Defend ban would be for Firefly users now that Firefly doesn't have the "defending doesn't reduce damage clause" so that you don't have uber-tank LoD Meru or whatever, but there are plenty of characters who have a plainly legal Defend-ish command for Firefly anyway (DQ8 Guv w/ Fisticuffs, FF13 Snow, Pokemon with Protect / Detect...   actually why has no one used a Pokemon with Protect on Firefly, that'd be total cheese).  I also allow the Item command for everyone in games that give the Item command to everyone!  ...no legal items to USE with it usually, but comes up for things like item-casting from an equipped weapon in games that do that.

Re power level: Yes, fair comments from Jo'ou and Pyro on the power level of Switch vs. Trans-Turn.  I don't usually think the turn-gauge will be THAT crowded (5 on 5 matches tend to have bodies on the floor fast, clearing things up some), but sure, it happens.  And yes, if Stocke switches with Raquel, then Stocke gets killed before his switch'd turn, then the team loses a turn, which is another downside of Switch.  Anyway, it goes to show that it's not a huge power level thing anyway, so I wouldn't really panic about allowing Switch.  It's COOL but not overpowered.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Now if you want to say Switch shouldn't be legal because you're Elf and think that the entire cast having the command makes it not unique enough, then fine.  There's no way to agree on what quite qualifies there, but I don't think the mechanical argument you're using fits.

Uniqueness also entails into why I don't allow Switch -and- defend, but it's a completely convoluted mess that involves a little bit of every column, and also internal kneejerks. Were it simply lack of uniqueness, I'd be doing shit like banning the SH3 cast from using their stock for doubles (and the idea of banning that makes me want to murder puppies just as much as the idea of letting Aht switch her turn into Raquel's). It's not really about the power level of Switch, either - I don't really care about a mechanic's overpoweredness as an argument for and against its functionality. But there's some nagging instinct about letting people who aren't from a cast's particular system-wide mechanic that pretty much dictates their battle flow get the benefits of a universal system that isn't even -theirs- that bothers me a lot. Even because it also interferes into the other casts' own unique mechanical flows. There's no real elegant way to say when the meshing line should be drawn (are we going to disallow people from Suikoden to heal or buff FF PCs? Certainly not), but it starts making me uneasy where you get things like Ricardo comboing into Kongol, EF Suzuka subbing in Yuna to continue an attack string or Stocke switching to Rand, even though these mechanics aren't even particularly abusable either in or out of context. And there it goes. All I can say is that my buttons get pushed differently in regard to those kind of mechanics from yours, and I admit that I'm not sure how I can even reconcile rhetorical inconsistencies. But I dislike giving a free pass of sorts on them a lot more than I dislike being a hardass about it.

On related notes, I generally allow Defend commands myself, with the asterisk that I also try and hew to the "standard" DL interp of characters in the Dungeon, and Defend commands traditionally have been banned by a lot of voters for whatever reason.  Regardless Defend commands tend to spoil bosses who have some blatantly telegraphed charge-up attack you're supposed to Defend through in-game, and if that attack sucks in-Dungeon thanks to allowing Defend, I'm cool with that.

I'm more or less with you with the whole "spoiling huge telegraphed charging thing", and my kneejerk is to allow defending to spoil that kind of thing. I'm not so cool with it making strategies like Silent Lake fail or turning Kain into a bonafide Puny, though. More of those internal kneejerk things. Re: items, I take the exactly opposite stance: the item command is universal, so it's illegal to me! So, even though I consider storebought consumables legal to use, they can't use them (i.e. also enters into "I allow Mystic" stuff-type clauses)! Funny how two opposite approaches lead to the same practical result.

[Dhyerwolf]

Guessing you get teh Ershins as a bonus? Should be fun to see how well the team pans out.

Also broke way over the max point allowance limit even without Ershin.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Half a point over, if I gather right? I remember Scias getting downgraded to a 2.5.

[Dhyerwolf]

Scias is still listed as 3. I'd expect that given that he'll perform better than Ryu here, so it also a 3.

[dude789]

Would there be any interest in swapping Mew from a gen 3 to a gen 4 pokemon? All the other pokemon are based on their gen 4 forms. I'd be willing to go through and make a new list for which TMs he'd have at each floor.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Scias is still listed as 3. I'd expect that given that he'll perform better than Ryu here, so it also a 3.

Yeah, I noticed that, actually. Wonder if Neph just forgot to bring him down.

Also, about Scias performance in the context of the team? Yeah, I'd agree with you. Ryu needing a turn to do shit long-term kinda sucks and he's below average speed to boot. Your first two/three floors will be basically Scias/Nina/Ursula trying to blitz off the universe.

[Nephrite]

Would there be any interest in swapping Mew from a gen 3 to a gen 4 pokemon? All the other pokemon are based on their gen 4 forms. I'd be willing to go through and make a new list for which TMs he'd have at each floor.

I say go for it. If you want to do it based on B/W that's fine too.

EDIT: Scias is 2.5 now.

[dude789]

Alright, I think it'd be best to hold off on B/W since there's no stat topic for it.

Mew
Floor 1:  Pound, Transform, Mega Punch, Rock Tomb, Flash, Stealth Rock, Pluck, Rock Smash, Bullet Seed, Hidden Power
Floor 2: Metronome, Cut, Taunt, Earthquake, Brick Break, Double Team, Thief, Recycle, Captivate, Sleep Talk, Grass Knot, Substitute
Floor 3: Secret Power, Attract, Steel Wing, Roost, Shadow Claw, Return, Dig, Shock Wave, Payback, Strength
*False Swipe, Fly,  Natural Gift, Drain Punch, Reflect, Explosion, Embargo, Giga Impact, Blizzard, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Thunder, Hyper Beam, Light Screen, Protect, Safe Guard, Solar Beam
(Gyro Ball, Ice Beam, Flame Thrower, Thunderbolt, Swords Dance, Rest, U-Turn, Endure)* 
Floor 4: Psychic, Toxic, Sunny Day, Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace, Brine, Silver Wind, Psych Up, Swagger, Dream Eater, Trick Room, Poison Jab, Surf, Defog, Focus Punch, Water Pulse
Floor 5: Barrier, Giga Drain, Iron Tail, Skill Swap, Snatch, Sludge Bomb, Avalanche, X-Scissor, Rock Climb, Frustration, Hail, Rock Polish   
Floor 6: Dragon Claw, Roar, Fling, Rain Dance, Charge Beam, Rock Slide, Waterfall   
Floor 7: Ancient Power, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Stone Edge, Torment   
After game: Amnesia, Me First, Baton Pass, Nasty Plot, Aura Sphere, Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Sandstorm, Facade, Overheat, Energy Ball, Will-o-wisp, Thunderwave

The moves inside asterisks are gotten at Veilstone which is kind of a toss up for whether it's floor 3 or floor 4. I decided to go for Floor 3, but if anyone has any problem we can move it to floor 4. The moves inside parentheses are obtained by trading in coins at the game corner. Technically you can get all of them at once, but this requires an incredible amount of patience. Only allowing one to be added per floor would probably be the best way to match the rate that you'll acquire them in game.

[Dhyerwolf]

Also now my second team for after that

BC Terra (3.5), Scias (2.5), Scarecrow 2.5, Ghastly (1.5), Ronfar (1)

Aiming for low usage (Terra is often crowded out by Celes, Scias...think just my current team, no real Scarecrows run, Ghastly has a few neat tricks, Ronfar is back 2nd reviver). Struggle not to go for Eiko.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I keep trying to find a good way to use Strawman, but I have problems with his durability+offense. His status whoring game takes a while to come into his own (and shapes up -just- as status loses usefulness) too. First Wind would be amazingly cool if it applied immediately instead of the next round, and Plunder is pretty much useless in spite of its in-game godliness. Gnaw would be cooler if it raised physical damage by more than 20% too. I often wonder if a pure status whore is worth more than 2.0 in the boiling of eggs (I certainly don't think Edgar is worth 3.0 in spite of how much he mangles the early game, for instance, since he's so USELESS from floor 5 onwards).

[dude789]

I know that Saner doesn't effect turn order on the turn that it's cast, but does the evasion boost go into effect immediately upon casting?

[VySaika]

Submitting a team here, without too much thinking about it.

Tir McDohl(3.5), Lenneth2(3), Lucian/Shiho(3), Strago(1.5). NeoSpeed sealstone on Strago.

Should add up to 11.

[Pyro]

per Snow it does indeed grant the evade immediately.
The only tbspeed  buff that takes effect the same turn is Lilkas. Maybe Virginia's?

[dude789]

per Snow it does indeed grant the evade immediately.
The only tbspeed  buff that takes effect the same turn is Lilkas. Maybe Virginia's?

Cool stuff. With that in mind I'm gonna put team tank on hold for the following.

Rika (4.0)
Mew (2.5)
Elincia(2.5)
Yukiko (1.5)
Nall (.5)
Elemental Advance.

See if you can spot the strategy! If this team can make it far enough, it will be glorious. 

[ThePiggyman]

So, my renewed interest in the dungeon has made me fiddle around with a new team. Let me know what you guys think!

Aika (2.5)
Shadow (2.5) w/ Multitarget
Sharanda (2.0)
Amarant (1.5)
FF5 Red Mage (1.5)
Nall (1.0)

Basic idea is MT Inviz Edge + Delta Shield = invincibility. Inviz Edges start showing up pretty darn early, and Delta Shield is Floor 2, so it won't take long to set it up either. Sharanda and Amarant offer non-magic revival/healing and actual damage. Red Mage brings a variety of powerful status (Frog, Sleep, Mini, Confuse) which will help with cleaning up. Can revive and heal in a pinch, too, I suppose. Was also thinking of replacing Red Mage w/ Gilder. That way, Gilder + Aika pooling SP means that I'll actually be able to use Aura of Denial on Floor 3. Decided that Red Mage's status was more valuable, though.

The damage isn't that great, really, and the lasting power on this team is flat out bad, but it's pretty much a gimmick team. Who knows; maybe the gimmick might work. ^_^;

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm not sure. The healing is so damn bad and I generally consider Nall to be a bonafide trap: reviving on the next fight with 1 HP for either a slot or one point is just not very useful unless you have ultrafast ultrapowered healers with no revival (hi Rika!) and absolutely -need- a second source of revival - or if your team is so bad it needs that revival to get past floor 1. Also, Inviz Edge would suffer -some- sort of nerf (turning it into 66% evade? Having it work 66% of the time?), leading to a very imperfect gimmick. Maybe it'd be more interesting to slap someone like Elincia to play into the evade game with Authority stars in the case of the former, and in the latter's case... yeah. I have no idea what purpose Amarant serves there in practice either, since his healing is egregiously bad. The gimmick itself is pretty neat (Shadow and Aika are brutally underused and that kind of synergy could work oddly well), but the non-Shadow/Aika PCs make a really sketchy backup.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

EDIT: Ignore this plz

[ThePiggyman]

I'm not sure. The healing is so damn bad and I generally consider Nall to be a bonafide trap: reviving on the next fight with 1 HP for either a slot or one point is just not very useful unless you have ultrafast ultrapowered healers with no revival (hi Rika!) and absolutely -need- a second source of revival - or if your team is so bad it needs that revival to get past floor 1. Also, Inviz Edge would suffer -some- sort of nerf (turning it into 66% evade? Having it work 66% of the time?), leading to a very imperfect gimmick. Maybe it'd be more interesting to slap someone like Elincia to play into the evade game with Authority stars in the case of the former, and in the latter's case... yeah. I have no idea what purpose Amarant serves there in practice either, since his healing is egregiously bad. The gimmick itself is pretty neat (Shadow and Aika are brutally underused and that kind of synergy could work oddly well), but the non-Shadow/Aika PCs make a really sketchy backup.

Yeah, the best healing I've got is coming from Sharanda. I initially took Amarant because he had non-magic revival, so that I could revive someone while keeping Delta Shield up, since there will inevitably come an enemy in the dungeon that is faster than Shadow and can kill someone. However, I'm a little worried now that Amarant's Revive might not actually show up for awhile. Earliest I can see it happening is the Rebirth Ring that you win from the card tournament in Treno, and that's probably not until Floor 4; maybe even Floor 5? I'll probably throw out Amarant.

As for the Inviz Edge nerf, I think the 66% chance of working makes more sense, since Inviz Edges don't actually raise evasion per se, they just inflict Clear status, which makes all physicals, evadable or not, miss. However, that's just what I think, and if I could get confirmation on what it should be, then that would be very helpful.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think that's a total interp call and feel both interps (of course, not TOGETHER) are valid, but I'm not sure how I'd view it yet. An alternative for non-magical healing (which would be more potent and inarguable, since one could try to argue Amarant's healing as magical and I'd be inclined to at least not disagree) would be FFT Chemist, who could also benefit from Multitarget if you're not pimping out the MT Inviz/Shadow Edges. Sharanda I'd initially flat out replace, but I realized her healing... also comes from items in the dungeon. Yeah, that makes her a lot more worthwhile in this position. IF YOU WANT, you can also slap Rikku in that team for another chemist-based skillset and replace someone else. And Rikku's utility and status whoring stuff is so good too. But four points is quite a lot to spare, and if you put her in the setup, you're pretty much stuck with synergy suck for your remaining PCs.

EDIT: Also, the first DQ8 boss that crosses your way will have a FIELD DAY, especially if he comes with support. That gimmick fears dispel whoring like nothing else, so you probably want more potent healing than what originally intended at the very least.

[Yoshiken]

Alright, scratch my last gimmick. Cute but ineffective isn't as fun as hilarious potential.

By which I mean, I'm stealing the idea that Piggy had after his Vantage team was already in: Vantage + Shadow.

Vantage Sealstone:
Shadow (2.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Tidus (2.5)
Elincia (2.5)
Moulder (0.5)

General idea is that Shadow can smash things about with Interceptor if they're, y'know, any kind of physical. (As far as I know, at least. Might be wrong about that, but it's still hilariously awesome.) Elincia and Moulder are both capable healers and.. Elincia's a capable damage dealer too! Plus, evasion hype to go with counter hype! Ramza acts as yet another healer, while also getting reaction commands for more Vantage abuse. Tidus throws around some ridiculous speed shenanigans as well as eventually getting Caladbolg for absolutely ridiculous Vantage abuse.