New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Nephrite]

Eiko is now 2.0 and Marisa is 1.0.

[Magic Fanatic]

I think Jane is interesting enough to keep, but just keep hiking that price.  Assuming Sucker is as good as MF hyped (see other thread, but I have a lot of respect when someone says "Yes I tested this in-game") I think Jane is entirely a fair pick at 3.5 points.  That should cut into her abusability a good deal.

It should be noted that Sucker is as good as it is due to the following formula:

NOTE 0027: Successful provoke chances are:
           chance = [<Jane LVL> X <LCK mod> / <enemy LVL>]

- <LCK modifier>
If Jane's LCK is A, then multiply by B points...

A      | B
---------------
S-BEST | 2.0
BEST   | 1.2
GOOD   | 1.1
NORMAL | 1.0
BAD    | 0.9
WORST  | 0.7

That means, AT EQUAL LEVEL, Jane has a 100% hit rate with Sucker at Normal Luck.  However, ACF is a bit cruel to the player, changing up the Luck of all the characters at quite a variable rate.  However, if you consider Jane at Best Luck, she can be at ~84% the enemy's level for Sucker to hit 100% of the time.  Worst Luck similarly recalculates into needing Jane to be ~143% the enemy's level to hit 100% of the time.

S-Best Luck is only possible to achieve by having Cecilia cast Hocus Pocus on a character while they're already at Best Luck.

Anyway, example.  Zeikfried in Malduke is L51.  Assuming that endgame levels are 55 (Sei noted Mariel at that level and no other level is listed in the stat topic) and Jane is at Normal Luck, Sucker has about a 108% chance to hit him.

CHANGE CHANCE | Occurs when?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small         | - your party enters "Surprise Attack!" type of battle | - your party enters "Back Attack!" type of battle | - one of your chrs enters "Danger!" type of battle | - you load a saved game
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Medium        | - chr levels up | - 30 minutes of playtime have passed
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Large         | - after major storyline events
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Minus         | - chr becomes fallen in battle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are four tables outlining the probabilities for LCK stat to change. I'll now list an example of how to read first line in the first table. Apply the example to other three tables, and you're good to go.

If LCK is "Best" and small change chance event occurs, chr has:
- 9/16 chance of having LCK remain at "Best"
- 4/16 chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Good"
- 3/16 chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Normal"
- zero chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Bad", ie it can't happen
- zero chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Worst", ie it can't happen

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
SMALL CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To   |    Best    |     Good    |   Normal   |    Bad     |    Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best        |    9/16    |     4/16    |    3/16    |     0      |      0
Good        |    1/16    |    10/16    |    3/16    |    2/16    |      0
Normal      |    1/16    |     2/16    |   10/16    |    2/16    |     1/16
Bad         |     0      |     2/16    |    3/16    |   10/16    |     1/16
Worst       |     0      |      0      |    3/16    |    4/16    |     9/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEDIUM CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To   |    Best    |     Good    |   Normal   |    Bad     |    Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best        |    6/16    |     6/16    |    4/16    |     0      |      0
Good        |    3/16    |     5/16    |    5/16    |    3/16    |      0
Normal      |    2/16    |     4/16    |    4/16    |    4/16    |     2/16
Bad         |     0      |     3/16    |    5/16    |    5/16    |     3/16
Worst       |     0      |      0      |    4/16    |    6/16    |     6/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LARGE CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To   |    Best    |     Good    |   Normal   |    Bad     |    Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best        |     0      |     8/16    |    5/16    |    3/16    |      0
Good        |    4/16    |      0      |    6/16    |    4/16    |     2/16
Normal      |    2/16    |     6/16    |     0      |    6/16    |     2/16
Bad         |    2/16    |     4/16    |    6/16    |     0      |     4/16
Worst       |     0      |     3/16    |    5/16    |    8/16    |      0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MINUS CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To   |    Best    |     Good    |   Normal   |    Bad     |    Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best        |    4/16    |     4/16    |    4/16    |    4/16    |      0
Good        |     0      |     4/16    |    4/16    |    4/16    |     4/16
Normal      |     0      |      0      |    6/16    |    6/16    |     4/16
Bad         |     0      |      0      |     0      |    8/16    |     8/16
Worst       |     0      |      0      |     0      |     0      |    16/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While hard numbers are good, the summary is this: if at any point during a floor before a reset Jane dies, the hit rate of Sucker has a high chance of going down.  Nevermind that character Luck influences a LOT of other things in-game, as well.

[Clear Tranquil]

I'm a bit confused by this new ruling. For temps who join at L1 and then leave like Peppita does it mean that instead of staying and levelling up normally/ linearly they stay at L1 and don't level up/learn their skills/etc or does it mean they are taken at the average levels when they join with the best gear from that point (i.e L32~ Peppita w/th Spike Shoes)? Or does it mean they do level up and gain HP/skills as usual but not stats/equips? :: If it's the former what about the FFXIII characters do they have to rely on their base physicals for a while?

[Nephrite]

In a case like Peppita, it's probably easiest to just let her level from the start.

For FF13 characters, just imagine that Fang has all her skills when she joins in Chapter...9? or whatever, but her stats are scaled against Chapter 9 PCs.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

(As for why Jane teams crashed and burned before, I think that was due to thinking of her as a one-trick pony who just did Follow Me + some plain bad luck.)

Most of the Jane teams that were designed just plain sucked ass. The only team that got into F4 with her before Djinn's was Glen's, and -that- one I'm not sure how it got -there- in the first place. <_<

EDIT: Also, Jane at 3.5 is honestly as ridiculous as Jane at 2.0 assuming Sucker is good.

[SnowFire]

If that's the same Glen team we're thinking of, the real question is why it didn't insta-win the Dungeon.  (Well.  I know.  Glen just randomly picked floors and intentionally was nice and moved Firefly off Jane or something, since Firefly-at-the-time was an absurd combo with Jane - Firefly didn't last a single turn, so sticking Firefly on Jane -> What Can You Do? spam -> all enemy offensive turns are canceled forever and Jane shoots them in response.  And EVEN IGNORING that particular interaction for sanity's sake so it was possible for Glen to lose, Glen had to random into a particularly haxy floor that was probably too tough AND spoiled his team.)

[dude789]

What was Glen's team again? I though that "What can you do" had pretty severe limitations attached to it that prevented it from being gamebreaking with Firefly.

[Nephrite]

Cecilia, Raquel, Lilka, Jane (Firefly)

[Glen Veil]

Jane didn't actually get banned from using Old Firefly until I was dubious enough to pick her on the team and then pointed out "oh hey Jane can do this with firefly!"

Other then that the team was pretty bad without the hax of old op firefly/me picking some floors that benefited my team. (Crit floor + Jane = Hilarity)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually, some of those old floor ideas could make for a few neat Sealstones...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

REPOSTITTY REPOST POST

Scrapping that Jane team, trying something else given current context.

The Emeritous Honey Badger Brigade

Mei-ling (2.5), Hilda (2.5, Speed? Sealstone), Yuri1 (3.5), Raja (1.0), Ricardo (1.5)

Eh, shuffling things around because my last team suddenly turned illegal with Hilda going up to 2.5. Probably too much SH3, but better to have combo shenanigans than not.

[Dunefar]

New team since why not?

Tir, Orlandu, Maxim, BoF3 Nina and FFT Priest. Status Symbol Law sealstone.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm kinda questioning Status Symbol Law on a team that eventually gets such a vast swath of statusblocking measures. I'm not sure it's worth giving up damage and durability on your entourage for a level of status defense they will come close to eventually. It could be worth it for the sake of spoiling the hell out of Different Strokes, which you'd risk struggling with otherwise.

[Dunefar]

Eh, I'm willing to experiment with it.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well, as I said, it's not a move without its worth. It also has the perk of immuning things that they otherwise can't cover in anyway (stat busts, for instance, can only be immuned naturally by NINA FUCKING THREE). You borderline free pass on one of the floor 4s with it to boot and the team has some strong bases (Tir ID is amazing for the early floors and he eventually gets it MT -and- even gets astounding cannoning eventually, Orlandu damage+speed is amazing, Maxim's spellset is quite potent for support and bonafide healer with status immunity+solid durability even with SSL are neat enough).

[Pyro]

I am assuming that Reset for Time Mage Bartz is a legal move in the DL and dungeon. 

It is a pretty sweet move in a team setting although enemy perfect AI removes one of its more abusive applications.

works pretty well cause I have a hyperfast mt status slinger but her rates are 50% instead of 100%

[SnowFire]

I though Neph said in IRC chat that Reset was banned?

[Pyro]

He mentioned it was banned on Emma for some reason or another but nothing else. (maybe because Emma is a ~1.5?). Bartz is a 4.0, and that restriction was never mentioned for him. Also I didn't see any mention of it in any of the dungeon topics.

[ThePiggyman]

He mentioned it was banned on Emma for some reason or another but nothing else. (maybe because Emma is a ~1.5?). Bartz is a 4.0, and that restriction was never mentioned for him. Also I didn't see any mention of it in any of the dungeon topics.

I remember a discussion about it, about how exactly Reset would work in the Dungeon. Like, for example, if you had a status with a 40% hit rate, and you used Reset, would that 40% chance accumulate over the Resets, or would the Reset erase the "accumulation", and cause the hit rate to remain at 40% regardless how many times you Reset.

I'm not sure what I think of it myself. If you let the chances of the status hitting accumulate, then you can probably break the dungeon in some pretty silly ways. It works the other way around, too; you can spam Reset so that the enemy's status misses. The fact that Reset only costs 1 MP means you can literally spam it with very little drawback, too. That might be -too- good.

[Pyro]

It is a very neat game to be played.

Take the first fight of 4b. Alakazam goes first and attacks Bartz. Then Jean goes and attempts status. If she doesn't get it then Bartz will reset, right? Well, if he keeps doing that, ZAM will crit. The enemy can try to take advantage of your Reset loop by inserting their own "Chance of screwing you over" somewhere, which can in theory render the entire attempt at Resetting pointless because you'll eventually give the enemy a win (my team doesn't have that problem in this particular fight as even if it happens they have a 100% surefire way to revive Bartz and Reset anyway), but it's definitely a fine line to walk. As for Resetting if the enemy status hits... well that assumes you are in a position to cast it again!

The 40% status odd thing doesn't 'reset' itself... RNG is re-randomized by Reset so it is indeed re-rolling until it hits (assuming that is feasible, see above). It also restores all resources and timers and so on to the condition at the start of the fight (why people use it to steal from Odin, for example).

Reset has always been integral to Time Mage's game (it's why she is a Godlike instead of a Heavy in a duel format). I assumed it was available in the dungeon as it was never mentioned to be outlawed. It is powerful but then this is to be expected. Bartz is one of the 4.0s for a reason after all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Definitely in favour of allowing Reset, as Pyro describes. It's a legit skill and I don't think it's overpowered precisely because the enemies can often exploit it too. It's actually less powerful in the dungeon than in-game because you can't reset until the enemy does something stupid, and there are no ambushes in the dungeon for it to erase.

[Nephrite]

If it becomes a problem we can address it then.

[SnowFire]

Time Mage is Godlike even without Reset hype - still has overkill damage off 2x Meteor, just not quite as overkilly.

Mechanicswise, I lean toward allowing Reset, albeit with a "player frustration" limit that nixes using Reset more than 4-5 times to get perfect results.  That said I'd have little objection to disallowing it in the Dungeon for power/flavor reasons.  The situations where Reset can backfire are very specific and not all that common.  It's quite a huge power boost.  As noted Bartz is a 4.0 so maybe that kind of power is okay, but FWIW, when I was thinking of making a Time-travel themed Stocke / Crono team for awhile, I would have requested a custom synergy Sealstone which was basically a one-shot of this ability, albeit not tied to the survival of any particular character (you lose?  Okay try the fight again from the top.)  It's quite solid if you have any unreliable statusers on your team (Jean as noted), and it's good even against opposing hax.  For example, it means that enemies who want to turn off the Reset spigot are 100% required to go kill / Silence Bartz before anyone else, which may not always be possible (some enemies don't have critical rates, or must do something really suboptimal to threaten a Bartz kill), and even when it is possible that makes Bartz basically a pseudo-Firefly holder, which as we know is always good.

[ThePiggyman]

It is a very neat game to be played.

Take the first fight of 4b. Alakazam goes first and attacks Bartz. Then Jean goes and attempts status. If she doesn't get it then Bartz will reset, right? Well, if he keeps doing that, ZAM will crit. The enemy can try to take advantage of your Reset loop by inserting their own "Chance of screwing you over" somewhere, which can in theory render the entire attempt at Resetting pointless because you'll eventually give the enemy a win (my team doesn't have that problem in this particular fight as even if it happens they have a 100% surefire way to revive Bartz and Reset anyway), but it's definitely a fine line to walk. As for Resetting if the enemy status hits... well that assumes you are in a position to cast it again!

The big difference there is that Alakazam's chance at a crit is much lower than Jean's chance at status. On average, it will take less Resets for Jean to land her status than it would for Alakazam to get a crit, so based on that, Jean's status should go off first. I can't think of very many situations where -intentionally- Resetting would benefit the enemy team more than your team. Quite simply, if it somehow benefited the enemy team more, you just wouldn't use Reset.

The 40% status odd thing doesn't 'reset' itself... RNG is re-randomized by Reset so it is indeed re-rolling until it hits (assuming that is feasible, see above). It also restores all resources and timers and so on to the condition at the start of the fight (why people use it to steal from Odin, for example).

What I meant was, some people brought up the idea that using Reset would also Reset the RNG, bringing it back to its original value. So, in that sense, if you consider a status missing on turn 1 (e.g. 40% hit rate), and you Reset, it will still miss on turn 1, because the RNG has been returned to its original value. Of course, a 40% hit rate COULD hit on turn 1, but no one works off that assumption, because it's more likely that it doesn't hit. Most people consider turn 1 status as being either 50%+, or 66%+, so using Reset would continually bring it back to turn 1, where a 40% hit rate would continually miss until it was used a second time. I'm not saying this is what I consider should happen, but it was brought up, and I wouldn't be surprised if some people did see it this way.

[Pyro]

The RNG being reset is largely a question of the move itself. FF5's RNG does not get 'reset' along with everything else. So you can totally miss a status, Reset, and keep right on trying till it hits.

On an unrelated note: I was thinking and maybe a team with Songstress and (FFMQ) Benjamin could work well. He has an Initiative Cover that gets status/MT/magic stuff to protect her. Maybe I'm thinking up a trick that just wouldn't work in practice, though.