New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Tide]

Couple of ideas I've been discussing with Neph that's in the works:

Squall (FF8) /w one GF choice
Comment: Inspiration from the RICHARD challenge. Choose one GF from an available set at the start of every floor. You are stuck with that GF until the end of the floor. When selected, you learn all of that GFs abilities for the floor (so you get access to all their abilities).

Pros: Several GFs are capable of handling themselves pretty well. GF summons are also always good and MT, which along with their support abilities, gives you some major stat benefits in certain areas.
Cons: No one GF is capable of covering all of it's own holes, so you'll always be vulnerable to something. Some GF choices are practically worthless, so actual choice variety may be a bit more limiting.

Estimated Cost: 2.0-2.5?

Rise (P4G)
Comment: Gaining some significant boosts to her supporting role, now you can add Rise to your own party-line up too! The downside? She doesn't actually fight, and giving you knowledge of weaknesses is probably not that useful.

Pros: Gains some pretty powerful supporting abilities late including the ability to stop a fatal attack once, the ability to FULLY revive your team on a wipe and can support the party in other ways (healing, status recovery, buffs, giving charged status to all characters...).
Cons: You're stuck with a PCless body for at least 5 floors or more. Rise's ability to help you (aside from the fatal attack save, and full recovery) is randomized so while it might matter in longer fights, is not likely to make a difference in shorter ones.

Estimated Cost: 1.0

[Pyro]

If Rise really is COMPLETELY worthless for 5 floors, then maybe 0.5 fits her better.

Anyways, I deem the Dungeon to be lacking in Bear-obsessed ghosts:

1.5 Pamela Ibis (Mana Khemia)
Pros: Has some status and parasitic healing (that becomes MT late). Gains physical immunity and has the ability to auto-revive fairly quickly, which is always frustrating for the enemy when combined with her limit-esque skills.
Cons: Her durability is so bad she'll be relying on that auto-revival a lot more than you'd like, and she's not threatening enough to make a "must kill now" target. Until she gains physical immunity she is horribly frail to beat-downs. Doesn't bring much in terms of team skills and is slow.

1.5 seems consistent with others in that range, since she lacks team-useful skills, she's slow, and her status is not very powerful and all ST. Mostly gimmicky for the physical immunity and auto-revival.

[Dhyerwolf]

She also has resource issues unless she wants to use SP! I think at some point there was vague toying with some kind of MK switch combo.

[SnowFire]

To fix my team after Eiko's price went up, after hemming & hawing a bunch about possibly rearranging both Stocke & Eiko, eh screw it let's go for crazy offense and make the long game more deadly.  Don't think anyone's used him but I'll risk SD3 interp hype to use Hawk as something new.  The stat topic's "average time" is 2.25 seconds, and Hawk's Jutsus (which go MT in Ninja Master) take 2.00 seconds, so with any luck he can be unstoppably hosing everyone's offense by Floor 6.  If I survive that long.  (Only SD3 character with any evade worth noting too, not that it's good, but Elincia should help on that.)

Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk

[ThePiggyman]

Just gonna go ahead and confirm my team. Thanks!

Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser

[Yoshiken]

Looks like my team hasn't been updated in the first post. I changed it to a Vantage team that.. I'll find sometime soon. I remember having Shadow and that's about all I remember. >.>;;

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... Pamela's a project character. There's certainly things you could do with her though. Another possible candidate for Firefly, of course. Though not great until she gets Physical Immunity. She -does- at least get auto-life!

Option 1: If you really want Mana Khemia characters to retain some switch flavor, you could try implementing a universal Switch-in command for other PCs, and letting the player decide whether Pamela starts on the field or in reserve, forcing a choice between a party of 5 or a party of 4 with a reserve slot. The first thing that comes to mind with this is something like Jude (or any fast PC) gets a turn, attacks and switches in Pamela, she gets to activate her switching-in ability, then has to wait for her regular turn. And as the MK character, she's the only one who could allow Jude to switch back in. Otherwise, he's stuck in reserve til the end of the match (functionally KO'd if everyone else on the team dies).

It would probably have some interesting tanking uses, but it wouldn't be a particularly strong strategy as it removes an immediately-useful warm body from the party, but conceivably it could increase overall damage over time.

Option 2: Having two MK characters (Nikki, Roxis, Anna, Jessica all translate well for various niches). Limiting Switch to only working when you have 2 MK characters in your party. Less interesting, but functionally the same in most respects assuming you allow a reserve slot.

If this is the only palatable option, then I would suggest implementing a Nall-style pricing option. For example, Pamela (1.5) is normal, Pamela (2.0) would be "Pamela in Reserve, doesn't use up a party slot, can only switch in if another MK character is chosen". The extra 0.5 cost should cover the utility that Switch allows to a party.

Thoughts?

[dude789]

I'd think it'd be simplest while being true to in game just to have 2 characters who occupy the same slot. So you could have like Nikki and Pamela or something, but only one could be in at once and you'd change them in and out. You could have the two characters be set, or could let them choose 2  from a group and set the price based on the overall options. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Making daily doubles is never elegant in the Dungeon, but I agree that having a two-PC deal that incorporates the Vanguard is likely the way to go with MK PCs - at least in my mind. I don't like making the system universal to non-MK PCs, which applies as a general rule, but I'm very fond of how integral to the gameplay -and- the PCs ot is, given how each character had uniqie niches and skills based entirely on the Vanguard system. This would be cool to integrate within their Dungeon worth.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The main reason I don't want them to be a forced double is because there's a few MK characters that are plenty worthwhile on their own even without Switching.

[Pyro]

No one has been successful with a Ryu2 team? Huh.

How does a team of Rikku, Ryu2, FFT Chemist, Lilka, and Firefly Rand look?

Rikku is very fast with MT status and buffing, including speed buffing.
Ryu2 is solid on durability and ST damage, and has Dragons to blow stuff up when needed. Rikku can use a Choco Feather on him to get him to blow stuff up faster
Chemist pairs nicely with Ryu2. Has lots of revival from the start (that restores with CT! This is pretty big!) and status blocking/healing. Is somewhat fast to boot.
Lilka is a personal favorite. But beyond favoritism there is Revival, status healing, magic damage, and of course Quicken... which I should at this point note that Quicken RETROACTIVELY boosts speed, effectively granting an instant turn to someone slower than Lilka (not an 'extra' turn, just brings their turn right after hers). This works amusingly with Rikku's speed buffs (Rikku can Choco feather Lilka who Quickens Ryu for an even faster Dragon, or Rikku Feathers Chemist who then restores MP before Lilka grants him a turn). Amusing games.
Rand Offers damage and durability and revival/healing... As a total tank who adds little otherwise to my team he is the perfect firefly recipient. Enemies would much rather aim for chemist or Rikku or Lilka. Outside ID I don't care if he is statuses either.

Biggest problem I see is a lack of consistent MT healing until late.

I'm open to suggestions about improvements.

[dude789]

I think it might be better to swap out Rand for Rena or someone that way you don't have to burn a sealstone for him to be effective. His tankiness probably won't come into play unless you have some way of drawing attacks to him or the rest of the party is also pretty durable. Perhaps the Press Turn sealstone could be interesting since Lilka can hit a ton of elements and I don't think the rest of the team has any weaknesses unless Chemist equips something that gives him one.

[Pyro]

Put firefly on Rand instead.

[Dark Holy Elf]

FFT revival doesn't restore CT, just that it keeps the dead PC's CT accumulating while dead. This can be either notably worse or notably better than, say, SH-style revival.

[Pyro]

This is still pretty good, with Lilka and Rikku to help manipulate turns so it comes at the right time

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Analysis:

Nina: Awesome. Worth the 3.

Scias: Also awesome. Less speed and less steady revival, but still has a lot of good things going for him. Have thought about using him on other teams.

Ursula: Decent, pretty much a third to Nina/Scias. Doesn't really stand out on her own but as third to those two more (since Scias was faster and has similar status).

Ryu: Needs a crazy drop of at least 1 point. He is...not good. Can't do anything turn 1 until floor 4 (and that is still based on his CHP and he's slow), doesn't get other dragons until floor 4, speed is never there.

Ershin: I really should have had items stuck on her. Obviously not really relevant since she's not a dungeon pick.  My plan was eventually to have her set up with speed equips and then use the move that draws ST damage towards her...but floor 5.

Cray: Had items, was really of no other point.

I knew going in that the 3 person thing would be killer. Unfortunately the turn swapping had a limit in that only one of my swappers was really worth anything (the one with items!), and the said items can only be used on those in the vanguard. It did come into play a time or two and maybe made it that I never had to think about MP too much (which is kind of considerable as BoF 4 characters are not good with that), but did not really work overall.

If combo magic was allowed with picking multiple BoF 4 characters, I would definitely run a more serious team with Nina, Scias and Ursula (perhaps with Body Charge on one of them for even more pain), and then pair them with others that can actually can at the same time (and with relevant shit to do turn 1 too).

[Nephrite]

You really think Ryu4 would be okay as a 2? I'm not so sure... Maybe 2.5?

[Pyro]

He is rather unimpressive for quite a while. Below average speed and needing a turn to transform means he won't be able to do anything till turn 2, and late turn 2 at that. Ryu1 has the same problem, but has better base speed to get around the issue. Ryu4's better uses are summons, which are pretty good in the dungeon format?

Dhyer may be biased against him because he didn't get to the point where he could begin being useful? Still, a slow physical attacker who doesn't even do all that much damage for 4 floors...

[dude789]

I wouldn't be opposed to something like a transform sealstone. Something like:

Super Sayan Sealstone:
Any character equipped with this sealstone who has a power up, transformation, or form shit effect which takes a turn (Ryu's dragons, T260's V-Max, Legend of Dragoon, etc) may transform at the start of each fight as a free action.   

[Dhyerwolf]

He's bad floors 1-3 (Dungeon doesn't really last long enough for Dragons to matter), passable but other with speed boosting 4-5, and kind of better on 6 afterward. However, at 6 afterward, Kaiser is 40% of his MP to transform and 10% for each turn he spends in it. Does have MT, but not amazing (and HP based, so not really buffable), so he eats up a lot of MP and doesn't get through that floor 7 fights that quickly. You probably need to either set your seal stone on him or buff him and have an effective MP restorer for him to actually terrorize later floors. Not sure when exactly he would have become all that great.

[Clear Tranquil]

Aeris from Final Fantasy All the Bravest, revives you forever and ever, you have to pay Neph real life $$$£££ to use her!~ 

[Nephrite]

Lowered Ryu4 to 2, and Jude to 1.

Lowered the speed bonus on BC to 1.2x.

Removed Press Turn sealstone and combined it with the Elemental Advance stone:

'''Elemental Advance''' - Elemental weaknesses are removed for both the player and enemy team. Elemental spells cannot be absorbed, resisted, or nullified by enemies. If an elemental weakness would have been hit by a player character, that character may cast that same spell again against the same enemy, which includes multi-target spells.

[dude789]

I haven't really thought about a whole team based around it, but if someone wants to use an Elemental Advance based team, Edgar and someone like Purim who can hit a ton of elements could make an interesting core. Just have Edgar drop Debilitator, and have Purim used the corresponding Saber (I think she can hit every element FF6 except for poison which Edgar himself covers.)

[Pyro]

Edgar's debilitator doesn't tell you what the weakness it causes IS though? That is a big problem.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It doesn't! You have to Scan to find it out!