New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[SnowFire]

Well, Team Elincia was fun.  It definitely would have owned most of the alternate floor 7, which is kind of what it was designed to do, and had fun trivailizing floor 6.  Not enough sheer broken for the aftergame anyway, the buffs game is nice for surviving straight damage and lots of status healing can deal with one ST status-slinger, but too much MT status (or lots of ST ID) is trouble.

Anyway, since that was a semi-serious team, back to a themed team a la my Lunar team & FF13 team.  Let's not lose to status this time: I'll take Status Symbol Law for the sealstone.  The team:
Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest 8)
Badass King Trode (Shadowy Dragon Hearts Quest 2) (aka Yuri if he spends all his time transformed into a green thing)

(I'm assuming that unranked Yangus is a 0.0ish pick, because he's basically worse than DW1 Hero in the Dungeon.  Or that Neph throws me a bone for synergy.  Guv is a wee bit overpriced at 2.5 anyway, so if Yangus is a 0.25 and Guv is a 2.25 it works out.  2.5+0+3+2+3.5 = 11.)

[Nephrite]

Yangus would probably get a Meteorite Bracer and Timbrel of Tension on Floor 7!

[dude789]

Ryu1 feels more about decent MT physicals which hover around borderline 2HKO, off good speed, than he does about dragons. Would be good in conjunction with strength-raising things, I would imagine. (Might still be overpriced though.)

He might not reach the 2HKO with a boomerang. The stat topic lists him with the Dragon Sword which is his best attack weapon, and a lot of that 2HKO damage comes from the crit rate. If boomerangs have a lower crit rate than his damage is probably quite a bit below a 2HKO.

I think Zalmo could probably use a price drop as well especially since Toadstool is a 2.5 now. She beats him in almost every category aside from durability. In particular her two debilitating status effects probably close the durability gap by themselves. It makes more sense for them to be priced the same.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Crit rate is based on the PC in BoF1, not weapon. And there are points where boomerangs are quite powerful, sometimes better than the best sword despite all logic. But you're right, it's definitely not all points.

[Nephrite]

Sure, I'll do some point analysis post in the future and see if there's anyone else that needs to be changed.

[SnowFire]

Most famously, as soon as you get the big Nina bird, you can go grab the Tri-Rang if you're an exploratory type, which is literally Ryu's strongest weapon until the right-after-Jade but-before-Tyr EmporSd.  And isn't THAT bad an offense drop.  (And there's times earlier when the middle Boomerang is best for Ryu too, though it has a longer time to fade I guess.)

Also, what, I see Elf ninja edited in new averages to the BoF1 stat topic.  Where...  the lower-leveled damage average is higher than the high level damage average?!  Ah, baking in crit rate to the damages, I see.  I think that's a little unfair to the cast - take Ryu, a 16% crit rate only has a 50% chance of happening after 4 actions, and a 65% chance of happening after 6 actions.  If the crit rate doesn't show up in a 3-turn average, I think it's best to keep it from the damage averages.  Which means that only uh Karn and GOBI get crit hype baked into the damage average.  (This'd help Ry1u out a bit too if using the lower level damage averages to use the more generous interp.)  (Flip side, BoF1 cast is already a tad inflated due to sterling additions like the mighty Mogu, so who knows.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Actually, the higher-levelled numbers bake in crits too! The reason it is lower is because there are some sub-optimal weapon choices. I think what happened is that Meeple used a number of weapons which hit weakness on "demons" (which notably, Jade and Myria are, which were used for testing). Once he realised this, he removed the +50% damage boost those weapons provide, but overlooked a couple weapon options which were now stronger. (This was nearly a decade ago so apologies to Meeple/anyone else if this isn't exactly what happened.)

I'll go edit in a no-crit average for the lower-levelled averages now (higher-levelled damage average is just kinda tainted and useless at the moment, sadly... but levels don't impact damage tremendously anyway so eh).

[Pyro]

I kind of doubt Ryu1 hits a 2HKO at much of any point with his physical except at the very end with Emperor Sword (which is F7 and whoo ST 2HKO at F7). He's not even all that fast for most of the game? Endgame he gets to be fast because all his Dragon Armor is like 0 weight.

Ryu1 just isn't very good in the dungeon. The dragon transforms aren't terribly useful when you consider that they take a turn and the dungeon is blitzkreig.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?

[ThePiggyman]

I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?

With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:

Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.

[Dhyerwolf]

Ryu1 feels more about decent MT physicals which hover around borderline 2HKO, off good speed, than he does about dragons. Would be good in conjunction with strength-raising things, I would imagine. (Might still be overpriced though.)

He might not reach the 2HKO with a boomerang. The stat topic lists him with the Dragon Sword which is his best attack weapon, and a lot of that 2HKO damage comes from the crit rate. If boomerangs have a lower crit rate than his damage is probably quite a bit below a 2HKO.

I think Zalmo could probably use a price drop as well especially since Toadstool is a 2.5 now. She beats him in almost every category aside from durability. In particular her two debilitating status effects probably close the durability gap by themselves. It makes more sense for them to be priced the same.

But...Toadstool is such a joke for several floors and I don't even think she gets revival? Bad 2.5 benchmark to compare to (Zalmo's niche is immediate access to full revival). Not to say anything about Zalmo, but Toadstool has such extreme early issues.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Toadstool gets full revival at F5. She's pretty bad stat-wise for at least four floors, though, and she gets to contribute with nothing besides MT full healing+status healing off egregious durability (there's worse things to contribute, at least, but um yeah dat HP). Her fundamental problem is that she takes around half a game to pick up steam.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?

With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:

Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.

Wait... that's all his status moves? I thought he got a ton of them? At least Paralysis or Confusion...

[ThePiggyman]

I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?

With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:

Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.

Wait... that's all his status moves? I thought he got a ton of them? At least Paralysis or Confusion...

Stun Spore is Paralysis. He actually does get Confusion in the form of Swagger (which also increases the target's Attack), but that only shows up on Floor 7. In which case, Swagger would be 60% accurate w/ MT Sealstone.

[Clear Tranquil]

Are Fang and Vanille still the same price given the recent rule changes?~

[dude789]

Speaking of Fang and Vanille, you could always add them in a team to counteract the MT Status Accuracy reduction with the Status Accuracy increase they give from Saboteur. They have some neat synergy with picks who have some iffy status hit rates.

[Clear Tranquil]

Wait, Fang and Vanille's Role Bonuses still apply to the entire team for dungeon?~

[SnowFire]

I don't think Fang changes a whole lot with a forced "scale to join time" interp.  Fake early Fang probably still does most everything join-time Fang does, so no need to adjust the cost there.

Wait, Fang and Vanille's Role Bonuses still apply to the entire team for dungeon?~

Sure, don't see why they wouldn't.  All FF13 characters get to buff their team...  a little.  I certainly baked this into my all-FF13 team calculations.  Just as a warning, stuff like Commando damage in the damage average already bakes in the bonus, so they don't exactly help themselves.

That said I wouldn't really get on the hype train too much since it'll only work when they're both Saboteurs, and the effect is fairly minor, and early in the Dungeon it's even more minor.  Checking Wikia, a Role Level 1-2 Saboteur boosts team status hit rates by a mighty 4%, and a RL3-4 Sab grants an 8% boost.  RL5 (Floor 8+ only!) grants a +12% status hit rate boost.  A 100% default status that becomes a 66% MT status will become a 74% MT status on Floors 4-7 (or 80% if BOTH Fang & Vanille Sabs are out).  That's useful, but not game-breaking.

[Nephrite]

So here are a few things I'm considering:

MT Sealstone changed to the following: All Single Target abilities are now MT, but only have a 67% chance to inflict their abilities on the targets. For example, Yuna has a 67% chance to hit all targets with Protect. This Sealstone has no effect on any move that gives immunity to any type of damage.

I'm not 100% sold on this change, but I think it might be for the best. Things obviously get even more dicey with abilities that aren't 100%.



Point modifications:

Tir to 3.0
Aika to 3.0
Cloud to 3.0, but remove Cover Materia from his list.
Chaz to 2.5
Fang to 2.5
Nelis to 2.0
Ness to 2.0
Princess Toadstool to 2.0
Ryu1 to 2.0
Scias to 2.0
Tidus to 2.0
Claude to 1.5
Ursula to 1.5
Marcus changed to Titania, I think she's still good at 1.5
FF1 Knight to 1.0

[Dhyerwolf]

If you want to make MT Sealstone a bit worse, there are better ways. This is just too much random chance now.

[Nephrite]

The problem I have is it doesn't work with 67% effect (as was asked of me, 'what is 67% asleep') so I'm really at a loss as to how to balance it. I'm open to any suggestions.

EDIT:

Let's try it like this:

All moves become MT.
The damage or healing of moves is reduced by 50%.
The status hit rate of moves is reduced by 50%, but the effect is the same.
Buffs are at 50% effectiveness (Vanish is 50% p. evade, reflect reduces magic damage by half and reflects half of it back? Not sure on this one)
Debuffs are 50% as effective but have the same hit rate.

Does that cover everything?

[SnowFire]

Neph, the second proposal is just the old MT sealstone (or current one but with -33% changed to -50%).

As for the first proposal, see Dhyer, that's still just as much of a headache!  Anyway....  to be clear, my original proposal in chat was actually the *reverse* of Neph's proposal above: get rid of all of the all-or-nothing "X% chance of this effect happening" because it creates massive scenario splitting and random chance, not make *everything* it.  So something like Instant Death, Sleep, Petrify, Vanish, Reflect, etc. becomes single-target and works as usual.  Damage, healing, and effects that obviously scale like buffs & debuffs get the percentage treatment.  The only problem with this is when people disagree about whether something is "scalable" or not.  I'm firmly of the position that something like Reflect is very clearly a special effect and makes no sense to "scale", so it'd stay ST.  (Or, if we want to keep the current proposal, go ahead and make it 50-67% chance, but understand that match analysis will inherently become vaguer with "well if Yuna's Reflect doesn't get really unlucky, the team wins.")

Anyway, I'm mostly okay with the current MT sealstone as is.  If you want a mild nerf + less headaches, I'd recommend the above, although that may be less thematic (since some things still end up ST).

--
Re point values: FF1 Knight is pretty dang good at 1.0, FWIW.  Probably not Dungeon-breaking or anything, but he's very solid (good damage!  doesn't die!  ID resistance!) and makes characters like Robo & Monk feel silly.  Robo can actually probably go to 0.5, sure, he eventually the Ribbon for something approaching non-terrible Speed & MDef, and Vigil Hat + Crisis Arm for status-immune hax, but he's such a late bloomer.  Even if he might be a passable 1.0 on Floor 6, he's just so bad dungeon-wise for floors 1-5 that he can use an even further price drop.

If you're dropping Ness to 2.0, DQ8 Guv can probably go as well.  They're pretty similar (MT damage, MT healing, a tad slow) except that Ness is way tankier.

[Nephrite]

So, to be clear, your version is reduced effect on things, not hit rate, but doesn't include any kind of "all or nothing" status?

[Dhyerwolf]

I believe the the old MT sealstone didn't exempt naturally MT moves (Apropos of little. As long as the sealstone still exists and doesn't get more complicated. I'd prefer halving of effects rather then just having them ignore the seal stone myself. Reflect would just halve damage and reflect half back).

Aika to 3.0- Hmm, one person used her well. Since I've forgotten if Delta Shield also cancels out magic on your end (gut reaction was enemy only stuff though) and that would make a pretty large difference, abstain for now.
Cloud to 3.0, but remove Cover Materia from his list.- No real opinion besides this makes him blander and it's not like there are lots of Cover choices running around anyways?
Chaz to 2.5- Well, looking at it, Rune is at 2.5, and they both gain revival around similar type, and running around with ST and MT. Chaz is faster, Rune is more consistent ont MT. This probably works. Didn't remember how limited both of their ID must be in game. That's a lucky DL translation.
Fang to 2.5- Well, her worth depends a lot on whether people let her cut off her turns early to get a big speed boost
Nelis to 2.0- She starts at least below L35, but should have an L4 at least. But...a single L4 with nothing really else isn't so impressive. Certainly she's on a level below Sasarai, so don't have much issue with this.
Ness to 2.0- When I used him (and he may have been a 3 then? Can't remember) he was fine enough. He does get MT Protect at L18, MT Healing at 24 and some MT status. I...wouldn't care too much, because speed isn't great and that durability spike is right at the end. And damage at the end is expensive.
Princess Toadstool to 2.0- The logical counter to me saying that people use Tidus at 2.5, she certainly badly, badly needs to go down to at least 2.0!
Ryu1 to 2.0- Don't he needs this too badly, since as pointed out, Boomerangs are good damage most of the game? I think?
Scias to 2.0. Since I'm running a Scias-Ursula team after this one, I strongly approve (Not actually sure this is necessary though. Speed, healing, status, damage)
Tidus to 2.0- Seems like people have generally been getting use of him at 2.5 without having too many issues? Or maybe they have though. I guess things to lag a bit.
Claude to 1.5. I guess if Monk is a 1, this seems okay.
Ursula to 1.5. See Scias.
Marcus changed to Titania, I think she's still good at 1.5- Don't remember really what this means. Better late and early? Better late, worse early?
FF1 Knight to 1.0- Depends on spells or not. Blink is great, and he can use it to protect a reviver during critical fights. Even without Blink though, 1.5 seems okay.

[dude789]

If Toadstool is dropping then Zalmo could probably use a drop too. She probably ends up a better endgame pick do to status and her ability to contribute MT damage in a pinch and the .5 difference if he drops to a 2.5 makes up for some of her early woes.