New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[Magic Fanatic]

Ness to 2.0- When I used him (and he may have been a 3 then? Can't remember) he was fine enough. He does get MT Protect at L18, MT Healing at 24 and some MT status. I...wouldn't care too much, because speed isn't great and that durability spike is right at the end. And damage at the end is expensive.

Ness never gets MT Protect (that was Poo - Ness picks up Alpha and Beta, which is ST Cut physicals by 50% and ST Cut physicals by 50% and reflect 50% of THAT damage to the attacker) and Life-Up Omega (the only MT healing spell) is actually L70.

[ThePiggyman]

Aika to 3.0- Hmm, one person used her well. Since I've forgotten if Delta Shield also cancels out magic on your end (gut reaction was enemy only stuff though) and that would make a pretty large difference, abstain for now.

Delta Shield blocks all magic, whether cast by an enemy or an ally, and whether it's harmful or restorative. Sacri/Increm spells get blocked, for example. Nonetheless, I don't have any objection to her moving to 3.0, since she gets Delta Shield very early, and it has Initiative, both of which are important in the Dungeon. Though she admittedly doesn't bring that much else.

[Nephrite]

Titania-talk: I think Titania is better early and better late, actually. She's Maybe a little less good early on, but not by a whole lot.

Ryu1-talk: There seemed to be a lot of complaints about him being too high. I'm fine leaving him where he is.

Scias/Ursula-talk: I don't think anyone's used either of them in like three years. Has anyone -ever- used Ursula? I don't even remember if her status is any good.

[Dhyerwolf]

I could be wrong about Ryu 1, but I thought NEB might have posted something about Boomerang damage numbers

I used all the BoF 4 team! And it was really wanted to use the good 3 and thinking that I might as well go for them all. And am planning to reuse part of the team after this one  and see what they can go with when supported by another 2 PCs who just aren't trash. I guess Scias gets a ding thanks that damn revival not being a 100% chance. Scias definitely crushed Ryu 4 so bad at least until my team fell, and he got moved down to 2.

If Delta Shield blocks defensive magic, then it's just this one good setup that is specifically built on 2 item healers and 1 item buffer. Not sure making her a 3 because it you put several (limited) people with the same quirk together is great balance (the further needs to be quirked with MT Shadow).  Otherwise she doesn't have a lot going on.

Okay, yeah, misread the levels on RPGclassics on EB. And yes, it appears to be wrong and says that Ness has MT Protect. So...retract what I said, middling ish damage, buffs aren't great, no revival. 2 may be kind, becuase that spike is not until near the end.

I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).

GARNET AND EIKO NEED TO SWITCH AT THE VERY LEAST. I don't know how I overlooked them, because their dungeon worth is so split as to be comical.

[Nephrite]

Oh, I didn't realize the Delta Shield thing. Yeah, she's fine at 2.5 then unless you build some crazy item-user group (RIKKU?).

[Magic Fanatic]

Okay, yeah, misread the levels on RPGclassics on EB. And yes, it appears to be wrong and says that Ness has MT Protect. So...retract what I said, middling ish damage, buffs aren't great, no revival. 2 may be kind, becuase that spike is not until near the end.

http://files.fobby.net/0000/06d1/eb_ranger-psi_guide.txt

I know I'm just nitpicking here at this point, but Ness DOES get Revival in Healing Gamma...  At L53.  And it's barely revival at all - MAYBE double digit HP on coming back if the target's lucky.

I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).

Doesn't Zalmo also have the Immortal Flag (or close to it), making him immune to most/all status effects?  Still, Toadstool has some decent bargain basement healing that also fully cures status effects, and a physical that doesn't suck on top of being decently fast.  Her revival, when she DOES get it, is half if not timed, but since most people allow Timed Hits, it is full.

[Dark Holy Elf]

FF1 Knight to 1.0- Depends on spells or not. Blink is great, and he can use it to protect a reviver during critical fights. Even without Blink though, 1.5 seems okay.

I forget my retranslated spell names, but Ruse (+40% evade) is self only, the protecting is done with Invis, which is only +20% and not really a great spell unless significant stall is going on.

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: What's the logic on hyping Dungeon Eiko > Dungeon Garnet?  Garnet is a tad fast, Eiko is average speed; Garnet is slightly tankier; Garnet's big damage is all MT and hits every element you can want, while Eiko is stuck with Holy & weaker Earth.  Both are solid MT healers.  Okay, I do recall Carbuncle getting hyped the last time that Eiko was in (due to the weird way you can apparently change the effect to not be Reflect), so that's something, but it's still going off at average speed at best.  And I guess there's Eiko's 25% chance of free Phoenix on party wipe to randomly tiebreak for teams with her as well, along with Phoenix itself of course.

I dunno.  If I'm running a team that wants to have both blitzing & healing options, Garnet seems clearly the superior option.  Eiko might be better for stally teams, but even so she risks being dead before she can summon Carbuncle.

[ThePiggyman]

Dhyer: What's the logic on hyping Dungeon Eiko > Dungeon Garnet?  Garnet is a tad fast, Eiko is average speed; Garnet is slightly tankier; Garnet's big damage is all MT and hits every element you can want, while Eiko is stuck with Holy & weaker Earth.  Both are solid MT healers.  Okay, I do recall Carbuncle getting hyped the last time that Eiko was in (due to the weird way you can apparently change the effect to not be Reflect), so that's something, but it's still going off at average speed at best.  And I guess there's Eiko's 25% chance of free Phoenix on party wipe to randomly tiebreak for teams with her as well, along with Phoenix itself of course.

I dunno.  If I'm running a team that wants to have both blitzing & healing options, Garnet seems clearly the superior option.  Eiko might be better for stally teams, but even so she risks being dead before she can summon Carbuncle.

To clarify how Carbuncle works, it has both a short and a long animation, just like Garnet's summons. The short ones only apply the status associated with the particular stone, whereas the long ones all add Protect as well. Here's what they look like.

Ruby = Reflect (+ Protect)
Diamond = Vanish (+ Protect)
Emerald = Haste (+ Protect)
Moonstone = Shell (+ Protect)

The Diamond, Emerald, and Moonstone can all be found prior to Eiko joining, so she can arguably use any variation of Carbuncle as soon as it's available.

[Pyro]

Eiko's revival is also MT through Phoenix. MT revival is cool.

[dude789]

I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).

Her start isn't good but even then the only advantages Zalmo has over her are durability and revival along with some status immunities. She's still faster and her healing is true MT instead of group target (and it heals status too!). As you mentioned she picks up her cheap (and full) revival around floor four or so and also picks up  some very nice status skills and eventually gets some limited MT damage. Zalmo's probably the better pick for the first half of the dungeon, but I'd say Toadstool's speed and status make her the better pick in the second half. I was wary of there even being a .5 difference between them. A full point is just too much. 

[SnowFire]

So, since some additional FEA characters were being discussed....   to sidetrack for a bit, I think some of the FE characters might be a tad overcosted at the moment.  This is because "ST damage" with no healing or tricks (read: Not Elincia / Moulder) is a niche most teams typically only need 1 of, perhaps 2 at most.  It doesn't matter how dodgy or countery they are (short of Firefly), the enemies will likely ignore them until the revivers are down, and it's fairly unlikely these characters can solo (short of an early Athos type situation) if it isn't the final fight.

So, just to note again...  knocking Knight to 1.0 is actually potentially okay, but if so, it's because "ST damage" is a niche that a team shouldn't normally need very much of.  Knight is way more unkillable than Lyn or Ephraim, but also gets healing + random RUSE / INVS tricks that might help in stally matches, gets some status blocking & elemental hosing, and also consistently beats down without fear of getting doubled by random speedster bosses.  Elf's topic has Knight at .58 PCHP damage; Lyn might be grabbing ~.80 PCHP when she doubles, but she's also much more killable or statusable, especially by ITE.  And she'd cost double Knight if Knight is at 1.0 while she's at 2.0.  Eph has crazy weakness hitting + OHKO when he doubles, but it's more frequent that he runs into opponents he doesn't double.  SO2 Claude, if he gets dinged to 1.5, is a similar case but with even more consistent ST damage and some status blocking.

Basically, I'm suggesting that if Knight & Claude get the discount, give it to the other non-healy characters, too.  So Eph->2.0, Lyn->1.5, Marcus/Titania->1.0.  Marisa seems a little dangerous to knock to 0.5, though, that's a lot of damage for nearly nothin'.  Same with FF1 Monk.

Moving back to FEA...  Robin/ the Avatar seems the most obvious inclusion, although it's a slightly dicey pricing proposition - feels like Robin makes a few characters feel silly at 1.0 (lol Marisa / Lute), but is not a very inspiring pick at 1.5.  Pick a gender & an asset / flaw (protip: take SPD, it's even more important in the Dungeon than the DL) and go nuts.  Notably, since one of the things that makes Robin & Morgan unique is their perfect class access, go nuts with that, too.  I'd also assume for Dungeon purposes that Robin supports their entire team, as in-game, and that Robin can be presumed to be standing next to one character of the player's choice (which means they also both get zapped by area-of-effect, of course) for support bonuses for both of 'em (+10 Hit, +10 Avo, +10 Crit, +10 Crit dodge at A-rank).

F1: Tactician, Veteran
F2: Solidarity (+10 Crit / Crit dodge for adjacent allies in addition to the above)
F3: Master Seal to Grandmaster OR Second Seal & L1 off-class ability
F4: L5 ability (Ignis if stayed Grandmaster), L10 + L5 if Second Seal'd above.
F5:
F6: L15 ability
F7: Second Seal if desired + L1/L10/L5 ability of switched class.  (also Brave Weapons / Waste legal)
F8+: Just pick any 5 non-DLC skills you want & a class to be in.

Also, an obvious potential postgame bonus would be MORGAN if there's anyone marrigable in your party, though chat with Neph on costing for his or her setup.  Could be fun since Morgan could "inherit" totally wacky skills like Red Zone or Night Sword.  A very reasonable and weak other bonus for F8 (arguably it should happen without any need for a specific aftergame bonus at all) would be to allow the non-storebought but still moderately plentiful equipment like Celica's Gale, Fortify staves, Levin Swords, etc.

Sample: F-Robin, +SPD / -LCK, Second Seal to Peg Knight on F3 and get Speed +2, Master Seal to Dark Flier on F4 (Relief + uh RALLY MOVEMENT), collect Galeforce on F6, SS to whatever on F7 (Dark mage + Sorc for Hex/Anathema/Vengeance?).

Off the top of my head, Dark Flier, Sage, & Sorcerer seem the money options.  DF eventually grabs Galeforce, is fast, and hits both defenses.  Sage is if you want to have some kind of Lute variant, Tomefaire + healing.  Sorcerer is actually a weirdly team-player type, because he or she goes and stands next to the dodgy dudes to stack -25 Avoid on 'em, is hard to kill if Nosferatu is equipped, and can bust heads with Ruin (and on F7+, Waste).

Thoughts on the above as a 1.5?

[Nephrite]

Tir to 3.0
Ted to 2.5
Sharanda to 2.5
Chaz to 2.5
Eiko to 2.5
Fang to 2.5
Hugo to 2.5
Billy to 2.0
Guv to 2.0
Nelis to 2.0
Ness to 1.5
Zalmo to 2.5
Ephraim to 2.0
Garnet to 2.0
Princess Toadstool to 2.0
Nina1 to 2.0
Red13 to 2.0
Scias to 2.0
Tidus to 2.0
Cecil to 1.5
Claude to 1.5
Crono to 1.5]
Lyn to 1.5
Popoi to 1.5
Ursula to 1.5
Marcus changed to Titania, moved to 1.0
Ayla to 1.0
FF1 Knight to 1.0
Monk to .5
Robo to .5


I like the idea of Robin, but obviously don't know much about FEA.

[ThePiggyman]

Sharanda to 2.5

Sharanda was already at 2.5. Unless you meant 3.0?

[Nephrite]

Sharanda to 2.5

Sharanda was already at 2.5. Unless you meant 3.0?

That is exactly what I meant.

[Nephrite]

Also, rejoice, Riou is back. ?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Well, that makes -me- happy!

Does he have any initiative moves?

[Nephrite]

I don't know about initiative, but he has a lot of moves that give him bonus speed.

[dude789]

I was thinking about various team builds and can anyone recommend a character with good, accurate damage over time or other poison like effects. Gastly was the first who came to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

[superaielman]

Something like an MK timed card gimmick then? Mmm. Roxis is the one that pops to mind, no idea if he's in the dungeon.

[Magic Fanatic]

There's also Raquel's Poison Bite skill, though that's a bit questionable depending on whether or not people allow the afflicted to move out of the target hex.

[Dhyerwolf]

Something like an MK timed card gimmick then? Mmm. Roxis is the one that pops to mind, no idea if he's in the dungeon.

There are no MK characters in dungeon (for all that I love the old bandied about idea of two MK PCs that can switch off).

[dude789]

Hmmmm, I looked over the list and I don't really see to many characters with good DOT effects. Sounds like a good chance to add in someone like Melia or Riki from Xenoblade so my DQ4 Solo+DOT character can break the dungeon!!!!

[Magic Fanatic]

Just an idea I'm toying with now, but...

Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WAo)(3.5)
Whimsicott (2.5)
Hilda (2.5)
Hellion (1.5) (Multitarget)
Raja (1.0)

Whimsicott is there mainly for Prankster, giving the team initiative on their non-damage turns...  And what initiative it is!  Hellion will have MT'd Copper Flesh, Raja and Hilda can provide other buff support, and Cecilia has her own buffs and spoiling.  The main downside is that it kills stuff  s o   v e r y   s l o w l y.  At least, until the later floors.  Even then, it's never that good on damage, but others will have a pain of a time trying to kill them.

...This won't work.  Nevermind.

[Dhyerwolf]

That Whimsicott effect also works on teammates?