New Nyarlathotep's Dungeon Topic, Updated 10/1/14 with new rules

[dude789]

I figure I might as well post this now even though it's going to be a while till I get in again.

Deis 2 (3.5)
Emily (3.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Bowser (1.0) with Speed ? sealstone.
Priest (.5)

Strengths: Blitzing, the team is very good at it. Deis, Emily and Jerin start a battle off nicely by smashing one opponent and spreading a solid amount of MT damage on all the others. Bowser then comes in and terrorizes the remaining ones which prepares for a brutal second round. All of this is off of significantly above average speed. They have a couple of other tricks too beside damage such as accurate instant death, confusion, Mirror, and the brutality that is BoF2 attack up. Here's a couple of numbers to think about.

Jerin's physical after attack up: 1.6 average damage.
The combined MT the team can pump out round one off of above average speed: 2.7 average
and the big one, Emily's damage after attack up: 5.5 average

Weaknesses: The priest is the only reviver until floor 3 or floor 4. Fortunately, the team's damge is so good they should be able to smash through a couple of fights without a reviver. Also, the team obliterates floor 3 which helps to get Jerin's revival. The team lacks durability, but they aren't really designed to be that durable. Terrorize and Mirror help to lessen this somewhat, but durability is still a potential problem. Finally, if they make it to the boss fight battered and almost out of resources, a mirrored, attack upped Emily can probably beat a good number of the boss floors if she had to.      

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm pretty interested in seeing how far that team goes. The blitzing potential is utterly nuts.

[Taishyr]

Which Deis? I presume 2, but.

EDIT: Yep, you say 2 explicitly later. Yeah, should be pretty shiny - also looking forward to it.

[SnowFire]

Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team.  I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already.  Back to the drawing board.  Though...  from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage?  Just want to confirm / deny that.

If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.

Huh?  This I'd dramatically disagree with.  The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one cog in the engine, the whole thing can fall apart.  The price of not being able to magically heal your team is pretty strong; presumably you're using inefficient item heals to get around it.  If you're accepting this inefficiency but not getting anything in return, then your team will fail.  It'd be like saying that if Cloud lost his materia and the team lost as a result, then the problem was with the team.  Tonfa's team had Cover-Cloud as a main part of its strategy, and thus Aika's poor physical durability wasn't a big problem; take that away and the team would be really awful.  But this is silly because he DID have Cover, from Floor 1 even, and he relied on it heavily to beat a ton of Floors.  Nothing wrong with that.

This is in fact the exact reason I said Chris wouldn't cut it- she gets Silent Lake way too late (same problem with Beecham).  If you're building a team to abuse Silent Lake / magic voiding (or any gimmick), but it doesn't have access to said gimmick for a long while, then there's a really good likelihood the team will wipe before it ever gets to play with its shiny toys.

(EDIT: If you "disable one engine in the cog?"  That's one hell of a cog if it's made of multiple engines.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team.  I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already.  Back to the drawing board.  Though...  from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage?  Just want to confirm / deny that.

If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.

Huh?  This I'd dramatically disagree with.  The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one engine in the cog, the whole thing can fall apart.

That is obviously true. However, I said only argument for exactly the reason you're trying to highlight: a design in the dungeon is geared around teamwork, but not a single aspect. A good team is built on having multiple cogs that can still support each other if one falls apart, so that it requires multiple (or even all!) of them to get crumbled to truly put the team in a bad situation - alternatively, those cogs are really good at stopping each other from getting ganked. If they often rely on a single cog to do all the working to actually function -at all- (which having only one argument revolving around only one PC while the rest of the party is irrelevant often indicates), then that's not a good team. You're right that the Dungeon revolves around teamwork, but heavily relying on a single character for a specific strategy without having covers provided by the overall teamwork is a very obvious sign that your team synergy is lacking.

I find funny how often we end up arguing over things we agree on, Snowfire. >_>

[Yoshiken]

I want to chime in here and perhaps clarify the new Firefly stone since your team seems to be riding on part of a clause I didn't realize I needed to stipulate:

Firefly: One member of your team becomes the target of all Single target attacks. This effect will override any elemental or status protection or resistance (Reflect, etc. also do not work). The target of this effect may not have damage to them reduced in any way; in addition, revival effects take effect on the character with this sealstone after the current fight is completed. This effect may not be used on Worker 8 or Jane.

So, as a reminder: Delta Shield would provide magic immunity to everyone on your team except Onix. In addition, Harden wouldn't do anything. I will re-word this to make it more clear and clarify that immunity effects also don't work.

My apologies.

Question! How does Silent Lake work with this? Seeing as it's not immunity so much as a field effect. Still blocks all magic, right?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well, they can't -cast- the magic they'd use to target (if they could, it'd deal damage as usual!). The immunity stems from a different source. The physicals are still going to deal damage as normal.

[Yoshiken]

Okay, awesome, just wanted to double-check that one. ;p

[Nephrite]

Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team.  I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already.  Back to the drawing board.  Though...  from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage?  Just want to confirm / deny that.

If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.

Huh?  This I'd dramatically disagree with.  The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one cog in the engine, the whole thing can fall apart.  The price of not being able to magically heal your team is pretty strong; presumably you're using inefficient item heals to get around it.  If you're accepting this inefficiency but not getting anything in return, then your team will fail.  It'd be like saying that if Cloud lost his materia and the team lost as a result, then the problem was with the team.  Tonfa's team had Cover-Cloud as a main part of its strategy, and thus Aika's poor physical durability wasn't a big problem; take that away and the team would be really awful.  But this is silly because he DID have Cover, from Floor 1 even, and he relied on it heavily to beat a ton of Floors.  Nothing wrong with that.

This is in fact the exact reason I said Chris wouldn't cut it- she gets Silent Lake way too late (same problem with Beecham).  If you're building a team to abuse Silent Lake / magic voiding (or any gimmick), but it doesn't have access to said gimmick for a long while, then there's a really good likelihood the team will wipe before it ever gets to play with its shiny toys.

(EDIT: If you "disable one engine in the cog?"  That's one hell of a cog if it's made of multiple engines.)

You may be right. We'll see if people still go for it and if people die horribly because of it. Yes, Hamedo still works because it's evasion, but don't make me nerf that too.

[SnowFire]

Jo'ou: Well, I like a lot of little synergies - I would argue that my previous team did that - but nothing wrong with hanging your hat on one big trick, either.  And "immune to magic" is a hell of a trick...  if you can get it going in time.  Which was my concern.

--
Also, idly.  I wonder what the cheapest team that can beat at least the first two floors of the Dungeon is?  Assuming you're somewhat liberal with handing out crests....   Lenneth / Lilka strikes me as not too bad a team for half the price of your average dungeon team (5.5/11).  Lenneth can go on healing herself forever while Lilka plays that slow buffing game of hers, and they can each revive each other.  Status is a bit of a problem, though.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

In all fairness? My ideal team honestly would be one with a ton of little synergies -and- at least one big trump card, generally speaking. I like to think it's possible to get something that good with strong team design.

EDIT: Hmmm. That team -might- be able to handle the dungeon's first floor, but it'd be a pretty long ordeal (Lenneth doesn't start godly at damage and all, and she hits a straight slump in offense by floor 5 due to DL-legal swords sucking ass until she gets a claim to that Glance Reviver). IF Rampage Drive is capable of OHKOing Lilka, though, the team is in deep. On the other hand, this may not matter at all if it has an elemental weakness, because Lilka can hit that and coast.

[dude789]

I'm pretty interested in seeing how far that team goes. The blitzing potential is utterly nuts.

Thanks, I've had the idea for Deis/Emily idea for a while but got distracted by a different idea. I think the team is pretty similar to Uno's team. It has one really good, fast damage dealer and someone who can buff it to obscene levels. I think his team had more ST damage and durability, but I think my team is faster and has better MT and healing.

I'll probably need some help deciding on which floor to choose though. I'm pretty sure I want to go with the bosses for floor 2 and the MT floor 3, but after that I have no idea. Of course this is all assuming that Nephrite doesn't change up the floors by the time it gets in.

[Clear Tranquil]

Ditching Lenneth, Mia + Status Law to -

Edit: Albert, Dart, Meru, Sharanda, Rose w/th Synergy Sealstone.

Please do not kill me!

[Bardiche]

Oh screw it, Thunder Wave hype is go. Sacrifices damage dealing for a supporter who has... beneficial tricks for the team.

Valkyrie Lenneth (3.5)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
Pikachu (1.5)
Tia (1.5)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)

I think my reliance on Sasarai may well ruin my chances for this team, and Resourceless may well cause my downfall. But hey, experiments time.

[Nephrite]

Request: Someone make a team with Ditto and the Multitarget Sealstone. Thanks.

[VySaika]

I'll bite. Tomorrow anyway. Want to chat with Tai about it, and he's not around right now.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Request: Someone make a team with Ditto and the Multitarget Sealstone. Thanks.

Multitarget Transform - the entire party becomes Jogurt.

[SnowFire]

(NOT A REAL TEAM)
Tidus (3.5)
Ryu2 (3.5)
Sacred Slayer (2)
DoS White Wizard (1.5)
Ditto (.5, Multitarget)

The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon.  A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means.  Failing that, Dittoing Ryu2 for 5 G. Dragons as noted in chat.  If we throw out the sealstone silliness and assume this team somehow hit Floor 6....  initiative Hastega + Turn Shifting means that Ditto's G. Dragon is probably beating out average speed opponents!

[ThePiggyman]

The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon.  A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means.

I-I... I'm gonna go sleep, I might edit in an actual sentence to voice my disbelief to this hilarious incomprehensibility tomorrow. ;p

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

(NOT A REAL TEAM)
Tidus (3.5)
Ryu2 (3.5)
Sacred Slayer (2)
DoS White Wizard (1.5)
Ditto (.5, Multitarget)

The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon.  A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means.  Failing that, Dittoing Ryu2 for 5 G. Dragons as noted in chat.  If we throw out the sealstone silliness and assume this team somehow hit Floor 6....  initiative Hastega + Turn Shifting means that Ditto's G. Dragon is probably beating out average speed opponents!

...

<3

[Nephrite]

Can that team actually beat Floor 1? Hmm...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Nope! No offensive magic!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Ditto MT Transforms the entire team into Rampage Drive

[Bardiche]

Ditto turning into Ryu2 for five shots of G.Dragon is...

ohgod... I'd allow it?!

[Clear Tranquil]

Ditto has to make it alive to Rampage Drive first!