imageRegister

Author Topic: Three 3D Action-Adventure Games: A Comparative Meeple Rant *SPOILERS INSIDE*  (Read 15484 times)

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
This is something I've been wanting to do for a while.  The idea is looking at 3 games that are all of the same genre, and comparing them.  The three games in question I picked specifically cause they all come from different eras.  I merely am looking at things like what makes the games that did things right good, where the ones that didn't failed, and things like how nostalgia can go shut up and such.  Before, I get started, remember one important thing:

THIS IS A MEEPLE RANT!!!!

Now that you've been warned? Lets get started!  Oh yeah, feel free to comment and such.

INTRODUCTION
First off, what is a 3D Action-Adventure game in this regard I'm referring too?  Well, you guys know Zelda?  Of course you do; if you don't, you're obviously lying.  Understood?  Good!  Basically, take that, and well...that's the kind of game I'm looking at...but of the 3D Kind.  So not things like A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening, but stuff like Orcarina of Time, Majora's Mask or The Wind Waker.   So naturally, its only logical I choose a Zelda game to work with, and as a result, I'll start off with the most logical one, the game that started this style of the game, that being The Legend of Zelda: Orcarina of Time, here on referred to as all its nicknames; naturally, if I just say "Zelda" in this rant, I'm referring to the game, unless I'm referring to the character in question.
I am NOT using OoT to symbolize the ENTIRE FRANCHISE.  I'm looking at the game by itself, unless I specify otherwise.

The second game of this style I'll be looking at is a game that has gotten similar level of critical success, but nowhere near the same commercial level, and is thus a sleeper hit.  A game well known for its unique art style, the usage of art in the game, and well...ok, screw it, if you can't figure out that I'm talking about Okami, then you all suck.  So yes, Okami would be the 2nd game.

The 3rd game is somewhat more contemporary, being only a little over a year old.  Game is a little different than the above two, but its clearly the same genre, same...well, ok, I don't know how to get into explanation at this point, so we'll just say Darksiders and move on.  Darksiders, like both of the above games, got a lot of critical acclaim, though worth noting it was released alongside Bayonetta, which ALSO got the same amount of critical acclaim, and both God of War 3 and Dante's Inferno were coming around the corner, so there was this big Action Game influx at the time.    I'm not sure if that says anything, but I just thought I'd point it out.

So why these three games?  Well, not only are they very obvious examples of the genre, but they also represent 3 completely different moments in time.  OoT is considered a classic and is generally put up as this HOLY GRAIL of gaming by many people, believed to be the first and absolute best of its genre.  Naturally, games like this also have to take into account the factor of Nostalgia, which I'll be analyzing how much that may or may not be factoring into it.
Okami is a game that's not exactly new...but not quite old enough to reach classic status, and even when it does, probably won't get it just cause of lack of genuine flair it created.  Its from the era of gaming right after OoT in any event, so it makes sense to display, coming in at the tail end of the PS2 era.
Finally, Darksiders is a contemporary game, and thus the newest.  If the logic of a genre evolving and that newer games should build upon older ones and thus be better, Darksiders should by this logic have all the advantages.

In short, OoT is an "Old" game, Darksiders is a "new"game, and Okami is somewhere in between.


So, LETS GET STARTED SHALL WE!  Since I don't know where to start, I'll just start at the most logical place...the beginning of the games:

GAME OPENINGS:

How a game begins can make or break someone's interest in a game; it is important that a game have a strong opening for this reason.  Now granted, there are games with absolutely stellar openings, but end up being weak overall; breaking away from the genre, a premier example that many people in the DL probably agree with is Final Fantasy 8, a game that has this spectacular opening FMV that really gets you pumped...and then the rest of the game fails to deliver.  The reverse is true too, of course; there are games that have weak and iffy openings, but generally end up great experiences overall.    Star Ocean 3 comes to mind, a game whose opening is long, boring and you aren't really sure what's going on, but once you get past that hurdle, the game delivers a strong experience.

So naturally, a game's opening is not indicative of the game overall, but its still a way to get someone interested and start things off on the right foot.

Of the three games, Darksiders is probably the best at this most definitely.  It starts off with some basic info about the council and all that nonsense...shit no one could honestly care about, but its a necessary evil.  Then you're tossed into the actual game, with an overpowered, practically invincible main character.  Yeah, its just one of those "Now you're playing with power!" scenarios, and its nothing more than a tutorial, but its stylish, and you have fun.  It teaches you the basics of the gameplay, and you get to kick ass while doing so; and the tutorials are quick and easy.  Furthermore, it establishes you as this overpowered bad ass with no real morals as War, the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.  Actually, the opening is basically the Apocalypse, and lets you do fun stuff in it like throw cars at demons *AND* angels, hit things with an over-sized sword that he uses one handed, etc.   Its nice action-packed, interactive opening.

Okami, meanwhile, is probably the worst about this.  It has a long narrative which isn't even visually stimulating, because it feels like just a lot of line art, and its introducing you to a lot of Japanese names that hard to keep up with, and there's Badger speak on top of it.  Then when you're past that, you...still have a lot of exposition and talking from this forest chick.  Then you're tossed into a generic tutorial, where its still a lot of text and little gameplay.  Its slow moving opening, that's for sure.   There is one saving grace about the game's opening and that's establishing that "Yes, the main character is an actual wolf", and it does well suggesting the game has a sense of humor, but the overall opening is kind of droll and boring; it really gets to the point of "can we get started...please?"

So what of the Legendary game OoT?  Its...not really either.  Its a simple humble opening of our silent protagonist, Link, waking up, meeting his long awaited Fairy, and then learning he needs to see this big talking tree, and its quick to lead you into the first dungeon.  Yeah, there's some running around the town, but its nothing major.  One thing OoT does that both Okami and Darksiders do not is have a very light-hearted, playful opening.  Okami, the world is basically in shit and covered in darkness, the crisis has already started.  Darksiders, ITS THE FREAKING APOCALYPSE (or is it!?!?!?).  In OoT?  The game hints that a crisis may be coming soon...after you do the first dungeon, but the world is still a nice place to live.  You're in a nice lush, green forest, instead of some dark gloomy place.  It almost makes the game feel like its intended for much younger audiences than the other two...

...ok, it is definitely the case when compared to Darksiders, but Okami is a game that feels intended for "all ages" like OoT, so the comparison is still apt.  But in any event, OoT's opening doesn't really grab you the way Darksiders does, but it also doesn't turn you off the way Okami does; its very much just this humble middle ground, which is acceptable.

Since I brought all 3 up in this section, I mgiht as well move onto the next area using them:

PROTAGONISTS:

Given the game involves playing as one character the entire way, a game like this needs a strong protagonist.  Also, since all 3 have a "Side kicK' style helper whose just kind of there to be a constant companion to the main, I'm going to assess them here.

So lets first off look at Link, the ever famous green tunic elven hero with a pointy hat and tights.  Link is a classic design and supposedly, there's like 50 of him in the Zelda Timeline cause they each take place 100 years different to each toher and-...wait, WHY THE FUCK AM I TALKING ABOUT ZELDA CONTINUITY!?  IGNORE! I REPEAT IGNORE THAT STATEMENT!
...anyway, Link is an iconic character for the series.  Given how popular the LoZ series is, Link gets immense popularity just cause of the representative value. Why do I say that?  its cause Link is a silent protagonist, who does nothing outside of gameplay but maybe an occasional reaction.   Silent Protagonists fail in RPGs, as we've seen multiple times; Suikoden 5 proved this exceedingly well in that it has very good writing, but some of the scenes are held back by the hero being silent.  Now, OoT is not Suikoden 5, but Link being unable to talk DOES hurt the potential writing of the game.
Since Link doesn't speak, this means every plot scene ends up being monologues by the guy he's talking too.   If anything, being a silent protagonist makes the game WORSE in these games, cause you have no allies barring the helper...except Navi barely talks in plot scenes either, so she's not exactly helping; she may as well be silent herself.   So if we remove the iconic value of Link, gave him generic Hero Garbs, like say a vest, long pants, and an undershirt, maybe a bandanna or goggles or some cool necklace or ANYTHING,  just cause we need something to make him stand out compared to the rest of the world, and renamed him Jimmy...the character would be completely unchanged...but wait, he's no longer this iconic figure!  Suddenly, no one is going to like him, and he'll be completely forgettable.

So now I'm going to say a statement that if i said it on GFAQs or something, I WOULD get shot, burned, lynched, etc.  My statement?  Link is a shitty hero.  There's no two ways about it.  Completely silent, doesn't even have implied dialog, and his popularity stems from him having been a character from the NES days.  There is no way to defend this character, and I feel the only reason Nintendo keeps bringing back is cause he IS an Icon.  Mario at least gained a degree of comic relief and *SOME* dialog...and Mario in the RPGs proved himself quite capable DESPITE being a silent protagonist.  Kirby is a Pink Marshmallow whose really cute and has a cool concept, and Samus is pretty much the first ACTION GIRL in a Video Game; all of these characters stand alone as being somewhat more interesting on their own merits, and don't rely on this icon status...sans maybe Mario, but he's well exceeded Link in that regard, and stands on a level of his own.  Link, meanwhile, without being that Zelda representative, has absolutely NOTHING.   Now, I'm not saying Link shouldn't be remembered, shouldn't be considered an icon, shouldn't be in Smash Brothers games...I'm just saying as a protagonist of a game that's somewhat story driven, he's really quite shitty.


Now, OoT isn't the only game with a silent protagonist; Okami too has one.  So naturally, Okami screwed up as well?  This is where things get interesting; Okami actually made its silent protagonist WORK.  I suppose calling Amaterasu a "Silent Protagonist" isn't fair, cause the character in question is genuinely mute; she's an actual Wolf, in both appearance and actions.  She's not capable of speaking.  Right there, Amaterasu has a major thing on Link: Design.  Link has an iconic design, but its not exactly interesting at the same time.  People only accept it cause "He's Link" in the grand scheme of things.  Amaterasu though?  Look at just about ANY other game.  The number of playable non-anthropomorphic canines is exceedingly low.  I'm not including stuff like Dogs from Command and Conquer games, I mean games where you actually play as those characters.  Characters like Blanca, Repede, maybe Red XIII.  Its not a huge number.  These characters often get acknowledged just cause "hey, an unconventional design for a character!"  Its always cool to see these things, even if the character is a lamer...
But Okami took it a step further, and made this Canine the MAIN CHARACTER.  Not only that, but the canine in question is suppose to be a goddess.  Right there, Okami's got a bit of a sense of humor.  A divine being said to be the "Mother of all that is Good"...has the physical appearance and mental capacity of your average wolf...and yet, she's your main character.  Its a pretty gutsy move on the Developers parts, but that's part of the charm of Okami; you're playing as a Sun Goddess in the form of a wolf!

Okami, however, does something else in Amaterasu's favor, something many games with silent Protagonists fail at:
They treat her like she is.  The game really sells you on the fact that you're playing as a wolf.  You can dig, converse with some animals, you don't "talk" to people, but you "Listen" to them, and they talk to you like you are nothing more than another animal.  Amaterasu is able to walk around certain areas cause hey, she's a wolf, not a human, she's not exactly a threat. You can even bite people.  The plot scenes further show Amaterasu acting like a wolf, and even give her a bit of personality.  Heck, right at the start of the game, Sakuya is giving a speech about what is wrong with the world...and Amaterasu starts falling asleep, getting bored.  This little bit of action is more personality than Link exhibits the ENTIRETY of Legend of Orcarina of Time.  AND IT CAME FROM A FREAKING WOLF.

So in the end, where OoT failed miserably, Okami managed to twist into one of its strong points.  It took what seemed like a ridiculous idea of a main character...and made it work...and it is part of what adds to the charm. 

So what of War, the Horseman of the Apocalypse, from Darksiders?  Well, lets start off nice and simple and say that conceptually, the idea is cool.  You need someone who can be suitably bad ass, but also can be twisted into a neutral figure who'd beat up Angels *AND* Demons alike.  While I don't know much about the New Testament and all that, I do know that the Horsemen can at least be passed off as neutral entities, and War being the personification of violence works well as a Video Game Action Anti-Hero as a result.  See, War's different than Ammy and Link; he's an Anti-Hero, not your archetypal Hero.  The game makes him appear to be more awesome at his height, to the point where they drain his powers and then go "now regain them."  Okami did something similar, as being the Japanese Sun Goddess, she should be this invincible creation being who can manipulate reality...so the game starts off by saying "You just woke up from a long slumber, go regain your powers."  War is not much different, except its a twist of him being punished and he needs to regain his powers.  Whatever, its mostly just a gameplay excuse to say "This is why he doesn't just trample over everyone."

So with a character like War, how can you go wrong?  Well...easily...War is the kind of character who SHOULD NOT HAVE A PERSONALITY beyond "KILL THINGS. NEXT!"  He should not worry about death and destruction; he's a personification of that shit, and should take MAD PLEASURE out of it.  He shouldn't be a little angst bastard...but no, for drama's sake, EVERYTHING needs angst.  See, here's War's problem; he has everything needed to be this original main.  Well, ok, he'd be another take on Kratos, except War would not require some sort of pity and sympathy for his actions; the guy is a being from some sort of abstract reality, one who doesn't have to play by the rules cause he MAKES the rules.  The only thing War should bitch about is early in the game when he gets drained of his powers; that's sensible at least.  He's lost his ability to KICK ASS AND BE AWESOME SO HE CAN BLOW MORE SHIT UP.  That'd be in character.  But then worrying about the actual state of the world, about treachery, all that shit...no, now they're starting to humanize a character who has no business being human.  War is hit too much with story tropes, and it really hurts what could have been a cool concept.

It is nice that War is NOT a silent protagonist, which puts him ahead of Link, but...they completely wasted a cool concept.  Oh sure, there are moments where he does things that make him look like an asshole, to remind you that you ARE playing as War, but the issue is the game is not CONSISTENT about them.  Its a cool concept that is pretty much wasted.

So in short, Link is a failure silent protagonist, Amaterasu is a bold concept that sounds screwed up, but is ultimately twisted in a way that works in the game's favor, and War is a bold concept that the game wastes and thus comes off as crappy.

But its important to take into account the allies of these characters two; the annoying helper buddy. 

Not shocking, OoT yet again is the big loser here, but not cause of OoT itself, but rather, its the character in question.  Navi.  I don't know about you, but all the major fans I've met admit that if the game has a single flaw, ITS HER.  She's a completely pointless fairy who does nothing but shout at you "HEY!" "LISTEN!" and such.  Everytime you Z Target?  She yells at you.  Every-time you take too long to reach the next area?  She yells at you.  Every-time she sees a clue and you target it?  Well shit, she yells at you!  Oh sure, she gives you information about enemies and such,  but its all generic explanations.  There's no real attempt to making her a character; she's an elaborate tool whose annoying.  And she doesn't even serve the purpose she feels intended for, that being a "voice" for the main character.  If she talked, maybe OoT plot scenes could show a sense of interest; it would not be constant monologues, but maybe an exchange.
While I'm not analyzing the game, its worth noting that Tatl, Navi's successor in Majora's Mask, shows how you make this fairy companion work.  She merely rings a bell when she wants to alert you; obvious enough that you hear it over what's going on, but subtle enough that you don't get annoyed.  Her descriptions at least show SOME attempt at a character, such that its not like reading a manual, but an actual creature assessing another one, with comments like "Don't blame me if it bites your face off cause you didn't block it!"  And she even talks in occasional plot scenes, meaning plot scenes can have...actual interaction!?

...but that's Majora's Mask, not OoT, so we don't care about that.  What does matter, however, is that Navi is an annoying worthless fairy that OoT would have been BETTER OFF WITHOUT.  SHE ACTIVELY MADE THE GAME LESS FUN.  I cannot think of a more damning statement for a character without resorting to Xenosaga 3 level insults.  When Navi left at the end of OoT, I think my friend said it best about the scene:

"And that is by far the best part of saving the world; the fairy leaves him alone!"  Kind of defeats the purpose of what is suppose to be a somewhat emotional "farewell" scene or something.

So what of the other two games?  well, moving on in time-line, we have Issun of Okami.  Issun is worthless for combat, not serving the purpose of telling you about monsters and all that...but that's not Issun's role.  Issun is the actual voice for Ammy.  If the game needs character interactions, rather than them simply talking to Amaterasu, that's where Issun comes in.  In Okami's world, the idea of a little sprite or whatever Issun is existing is apparently not uncommon, so we just chalk that up to the nature of that world.  Issun is a character who when you first meet, you think to yourself "oh boy, this can't be anything good"...but Okami kind of plays to this.  In what seems like a tease to Navi, they make Issun almost annoying ON PURPOSE.  They make him out to be very clearly anything but a respectable individual;quite the contrary, he's a perverted, arrogant, snobby little prick.   His intro, after-all, involves him coming out of Sakuya's cleavage.  In any event, because the game is aware that Issun would be annoying to anyone, they kind of play to this, and what starts off as being annoying ends up being part of his charm.  Ammy doesn't mind abusing Issun on occasion when he misbehaves (I believe she nearly purposely swallows him on a few occasions early game), and Issun does add life to some scenes.  He is a constant player in plot too; yeah, he serves the role of "Tutorial guy" when you get a new spell, to point out things, but he also is an actual character in the story.  You grow attached to the little guy, even though there really isn't much likable about him...

...again, this an example of Okami taking a questionable idea and making it work.  First they did it with Amaterasu, and now Issun.  Proof that it works is that I've seen multiple people say, including my little sister, that the scene where Issun leaves is such an emotional and sad scene.  Even though they leave on a somewhat positive standing, its still kind of sad to see the only consistent companion Ammy had the entire game abruptly have to part; its like a part of the character is gone.  Issun even gives us a nice big speech and shows that he doesn't want to do this, but he knows he has too.   Compare this to OoT's equivalent where its just "Fairy Slowly Flies out."


Now, Darksider's is a game that could have gotten away without a helper figure, cause War is capable of carrying his own half of the conversation, being neither a Silent Protagonist or a dog.  Yet, the Watcher was still instituted on him; I won't get into the plot details, but I feel they tossed the Watcher there only so War could have at least ONE person to converse with.  Fair enough, I suppose; it gets boring if the person is constantly just thinking out-loud whenever there isn't another dude on the screen.  Now, first off, the Watcher makes one thing very clear:
He is *NOT* on War's side.  He's just there to make sure War is doing his job, and punish him if he gets out of line.  Quite a bit different a role from Issun and Navi who just kind of exist to be miniature companions.  The Watcher is best compared to Ryuk (SP?) from Death Note, basically.  He's got an actual personality of being in short...well...he's evil.  This is more just Darksiders trying to fuck with your perceptions of morals and trying to make it clear that "No one is a good guy, not even your protagonist! EVERYONE IS DOUCHE!"  The Watcher has a sarcastic personality, and generally just yells at you and...yeah, there isn't much to him...but he does have one nice thing going for him...

MARK. FUCKING. HAMIL.  I don't have to explain anything more.   Yeah, its not his greatest job or anything, but he's still apparently the Watcher's VA and that's all that matters. 
By the end of the game, the Watcher doesn't "Leave" War the way Issun and Navi leave their respective companions, but instead, the game does something a little different; they made it clear he's not exactly War's ally, just an overseer.  Given this, its only natural War is going to turn on him eventually, or perhaps the other way around, but regardless, you know their relationship isn't going to end on a positive note, and the game keeps reminding you of this; at least the game gets points for originality, but I can't say the scene was especially well done or anything, but I think that's more a different kind of flaw than a flaw of the Watcher himself.

I guess in the end, The Watcher is hard to compare to Issun and Navi cause he fulfills a different kind of niche than those two.  He's not likable in the least, but you're not suppose to like him, nor are you suppose to slowly grow attached to him the way you do to Issun.   Its very clearly a different angle.  So I guess he gets points for being original, Issun gets points for doing the archetype properly, and Navi gets points for...um...Memetastic horridness or something!?

in the end, I think its safe to say Okami did the two main character things the best easily, and OoT did it the worst.  Both Ammy and Issun were characters who are very easy to screw up and make fail, but Okami turned them into an actual strong point.  Darksiders you end up kind of neutral to borderline negative to overall, cause of the fact that they tried original ideas that could have been really cool but didn't use them to their potential, and in SOME cases, used them in ways that actually deferred from the potential rather than makde use of it.  Lastly, OoT is a game that really relies on its hero being an icon to make you overlook the fact that he's a pretty bad Silent Protagonist, combined with an awful annoying little bitch you want to strangle every-time she shouts "HEY!" "LISTEN!"

With that, I guess the next section I'll deal with is all the OTHER characters in these games...but that will have to wait!

----
The rest of this rant will be continued at a different point.  If you want to comment on things now, feel free.  Also, if you do, I should ask this:

Make a new post for additions, or just add to this one and merely make additional statements?  I intended to do it all in one sitting but time restraints say otherwise <_<
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 10:27:02 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
So lets move on with this rant, shall we?  This next section is really big alone, so yeah, just one section for now.

EDIT: And because it was requested, I am adding visual aid to this section, just so you have any clue what I'm talking about!  I apologize for any

SUPPORTING CAST MEMBERS

Now, the Protagonist and his/her helper buddy are not the only characters in these games.  Naturally, like many story driven games, there are supporting cast members.  The memorable, the unmemorable, the nameless generic freaks you question why they're even in this game...you get the point.  Often, they are not crucial to the plot, but at the same time, these characters can add a little extra something to make stock plot scenes more interesting.

OoT isn't half bad at this actually.  Its not amazing, but when you consider just how badly it failed with Link and Navi, its interesting how the game does a half decent job on its supporting characters. 



Saria is established as Link's friend, and you can even talk to her at just about any point in the game using her own song.  Sure its not a lot, but its something that the game establishes, and we can identify a hint of an energetic, enthusiastic personality in her.



Then we have Zelda who-...ok, she sucks.  She's a MAGICAL PRINCESS, then does NOTHING after she's introduced except get taken away from the villain.  Then she hides under the guise of another character in Sheik, being all cryptic and special...then reveals herself!  Ok, neat twist, except they completely fuck it up by making Zelda one hell of a Faux Action Girl.  So until this point, she's shown as being this Ninja-like character...then she reveals herself, BAM, instant pwnage by the villain...after she's escaped him for 7 years.  Am I missing something here?  Considering her knowledge of the Triforce, and everything that happens in the game, you'd THINK she'd know that revealing herself would make Ganondorf find her?  Its really just a huge psyduck moment, and establishes further that people who MATTER the series can't handle...at all...



Brings us to the next character, the villain, Ganondorf.  Lets be blunt here; he's about as stock, generic, and bland as you can get.  There's no mystery about him; he's just an evil guy whose evil cause...he's evil...and has MAGIC POWARS!!!  They even make him LOOK obviously evil, and basically say "HE'S THE VILLAIN!!!"  Ok, so I guess we can give the game props for not pretending that this guy has a chance of being a good guy, but at the same time, would it hurt to give him, I dunno...screen time?  His entire role in the story is get introduced -> mock the hero -> XANATOS GAMBIT!!!! -> Sit in the Tower Playing an Organ.  There's no motivation, no real explanation for him other than "he's some guy from a place of thieves."  Ok, being a thief leader I guess makes him instant evil...except we meet those thieves and they're very clearly NOT evil, just a shady bunch.    In the end, he's about as stock a villain as you can get, and there's nothing remotely interesting about him.  Yet, he gets respect from Zelda fans cause...well...how can ZELDA DO WRONG!?

Ok, so he does succeed in his goals, but only cause the Sages are idiots and decided to lock their hero of time up for 7 years, letting Ganondorf run around unopposed for 7 years.  And that twist would have been better if FF6 didn't do it years before, and MUCH BETTER with Kefka, and in a much more stark and powerful way.   I'd get more into this, except this isn't about FF6 vs. OoT, so that doesn't really do much; my general point is that Ganondorf's sole claim to fame is kind of botched cause its less him being good, and more EVERYONE ELSE being fucking morons.



Following that is Impa who...umm...er...exists to...exist?  Yeah, she basically shows up, "Yo, I'm Zelda's guardian", then disappears until she's apparently the SHADOW SAGE!!! or whatever, and...yeah...



...then we have the Gorons, and notably, Darunia.  Ok, these guys are pretty neat.   They're big rock eating freaks who are TOO DAMN FRIENDLY.  That's actually a pretty neat thing cause they're three times your size, yet they have big smiles on their faces, and just want to give you a huge.  Racial consistencies are cool or something; jRPGs do it all the time, even well respected ones, so its clear there's nothing inherently wrong with that.  Then we have their leader Darunia who takes it a step further, makes Link his BROTHER!!! or whatever, and even performs a completely ridiculous dance when you play Saria's theme.  This is pretty awesome, in truth.  Its also probably the highlight of ZELDA CHARACTERIZATION.



...and it occurs to me I forgot about the Lon Lon Ranch characters.  Well, Talon is amusing for being a lazy bastard, Malon is um...er...a bit creepy with her obsession over Link, Eggs, Cows and Horses or something, and that other guy is basically there to be a Luigi to counter Talon being Mario.  Ok, lets be serious here; Talon and Malon are just there to be Link's Awakening references to Tarin and Marin, who were in truth, more fun characters...but lets not get into that.  Honestly, Lon Lon Ranch is kind of pointless and just exists so you can get a horse later in the game.

BUT BACK TO PLOT RELEVANT KARACTARS or something...




Next up, the Zoras.  King Zora is basically Jabba the Hut if he were a good guy, so that's...something?  I probably insulted Jabba there, mind you.  The Zoras of course are a group of curiously attractive fishmen who have no actual personality whatsoever.  Great, so after getting the Gorons amusingly right, they go and fail it up miserably on the Zoras?  Good job Zelda, SHOW SOME DAMN CONSISTENCY.  Now, yes, they don't have to be "GIVE US A BIG GORON HUG!" like the mountainous dudes, but at least give them some sort of personality.  Like, I dunno, given how they look, why not make them all narcissistic assholes who obsess over being FABULOUS~ and only shun Link cause he's not pretty enough.



Then we have the princess, Ruto.  To her credit, she's actually USEFUL unlike the OTHER princess in this game, but even then, she still needs to be baby-sat by the under-aged Main, and when she's an adult, she's just kind of there to go "hey, remember me?  Yeah, I'm the Water Sage now!"  Whatever, Darunia didn't get much more as an adult, though they did try to make both seem badass by basically saying they went to single-handedly save their races (if they basically failed cause Link did all the work)...though, Ruto has one thing that's rather...creepy about her...
She's an inverse Furry.  She's a fish-girl who wants to get it on with Link...when they're both 10.  And this isn't some immature childhood crush, cause she OPENLY REMINDS YOU of their "engagement" when she's 7 years older and...*bleaches brain*



Moving on from the creepy fishmen...we have I guess the Gerudos, a group of lesbian thieves whom the game does not explain how they pro-create, but somehow, every 100 years there's a male born and said male is the king of these girls, and it happens to be Ganondorf this time.  Well, congrats Ganondorf, you are KING OF THE LESBIANS....

...wait wait wait wait...Ganondorf rules over an entire land of Lesbians...ones who aren't even half bad looking (well, ok, the the Bridge Guard is pretty atrocious)...and he's NOT SATSIFIED?  What the fuck is WRONG with this man?



...ok, jokes aside, they're basically the Elven Stereotypes of the game...even though we have a clan of forest people in the Kokiri (who don't really deserve their own section), and a race of pretty long eared people in the Zoras...you know what, I'm just gonna end the discussion there and move onto their leader, Naburu, I think her name is, who uh...well, she doesn't like Ganondorf, but is bound by traditions of her people to listen to him.  Ok, that's something...and she evidently has a thing for younger men...is there ANY woman in this game who doesn't have some sort of screwed up mental issue?

...you know what, I'm done.  no more talk about Zelda's cast.  There are some shades of competence here like the Gorons, but a lot of "What the fuck moments" combined with a failure female lead (who is league ahead of Rinoa, granted) and a stock, generic, boring-ass villain.  so with that in mind, ONTO OKAMI!

Now, Okami has a lot of random characters we meet throughout, so I'm going to be missing a bunch and trying to deal with the important ones only...



(ignore the picture used, it just happened to show examples of all 3 of her states)

First off, Sakuya, the Tree Spirit.  She comes off as your generic Mystical Female Girl thing, but she's losing her powers, and can just barely restore Ammy.  Then you restore her tree and she reappears...half naked.  She's also a lot more energetic and cheerful, and less cryptic, and well...there isn't much to her.  Granted, the game does make use of her design, involving that she shows cleavage regardless, and has Issun, the pervert that he is, TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF THIS.  See, this is something Zelda lacks; the NPCs just monologue, so little things like this can't be taken advantage of.  Issun at very least responds to the characters, and thus while not related to writing or personality of the character in question, it helps make them more memorable.



The next character who matters is no doubt Susano.  What can be said about Susano?  Well, he's...some sort of weird fusion of BoF4 Kahn and FF5 Gilgamesh.  You know, he's an incompetent moron who wields a useless sword...but is somehow ridiculously strong?  He's also a total drunkard, and the cause of all the shit that happens, which is actually a nice twist cause you'd never expect HIM to be capable of such a failure (well, the early silhouette could be a give away.)  The game does good dealing with his antics, which are humorous in that pathetic way, and then he appears in the fight with Orochi, somehow being a total commendable badass.  See, Susano is the exact kind of character Capcom is great with, its no surprise he's well done.



Following that, we have Susano's love interest, Kushi.  There's...not much to her.  She's a nice girl who wants to make good sake, and despite Susano being...Susano, she truly believes there's a strong, commendable fellow underneath.  Even when he reveals himself to be the cause of all the shit that goes down, she still holds out hope for him.  She's basically the game's first Damsel in Distress, but she still tries to do SOMETHING useful, at least making the sake that is meant to counter Orochi.  yeah, there's not much to her, she's mostly there to give Susano a reason to CARE about stuff. 



Then we have a bunch of little generic humans interspersed.  For characters with such little roles, they all have well defined personalities, between the little determined kid and his dog who love to fish, even lacking a fishing line, to Mr. Orange, the old crippled guy who somehow can do an elaborate Cherry Blossom Dance.   I know OoT has some stock characters like that, but they totally don't leave as big an impression as Okami's.

So we next have Princess Fuse who-...ok, screw her, she's forgettable, the only GOOD thing about her is she has a team of SENTAI DOGS.  She's not even worth giving a picture for!



Though, it is worth noting that Okami has its own counter to the Zoras, shockingly enough.  That being the Sparrow Clan.  The difference?  They're FAR MORE AWESMOE.  Why?  Cause they're a group of YAKUZA BIRD PEOPLE, ruled by basically a bird version of Marlin Brando.  I really shouldn't have to say anything more, cause its all self explanatory.  Again, Okami goes the extra length and makes its little minor tribes like that randomly awesome!

(I think the Sparrow Clan shot may be fan art, but whatever, not important here)



So next I guess we have the Empress of Sei-An.  No, I don't remember her name, so shut up.  She's basically there to be...well, a prophet like character.  Ok, nothing useful here.  Frankly, Otohime, the Dragon Queen, isn't any better.  In credit to the Empress, the game does a gutsy thing in actually KILLING HER OFF.  Why is this gutsy?  Cause Okami is very much geared towards being a game intended for everyone, so the fact that they'd do something so dark in a game like this, even if its downplayed, deserves mentioning.
Contrast this to OoT, where they refuse to kill ANYBODY.  If someone is "Dead", it was done between the 7 years, where Link is going to reverse that anyway and its not actually happening.  Nobody dies in a Zelda game; they merely get "Sealed off" or "kidnapped" or "disappear."  But The Empress?  She actively gets killed by the Ninetails...



...which brings us to Rao.  Rao sends you on a fetch quest, sure, but there's that twist with ninetails it pulls.  The game makes it kind of clear WHEN the swap occurs, but keeps it vague enough to imply that this may not be the moment.  To add to this...busty babe.  Again, here's Issun just adding a bit of color to the characters.  Lets be honest; Rao becomes a lot more memorable just cause Issun constantly calls her "busty babe" and the game goes out of its way to focus ON her over-sized chest; I'll get to how that's a good/bad thing in a later section, cause that's not character work, but it is an example of how Okami helped make someone more memorable.



Orochi and the Ninetail Fox, speaking of which, are both examples of evil villains that the game just doesn't pretend are anything BUT evil villains.  It comes out and says "They're incarnations of evil, KILL THEM."  Yes, its not more interesting than Ganondorf, but at least Okami isn't trying to make an established character out of them; they're just there to be adversaries.  Ganondorf is a genuine character introduced early, and killed off late.  Orochi is a faux-final boss, where you beat him then the game goes "NO, JUST KIDDING, GAME NOT OVER" so its sensible he's not got many scenes.  Ninetails is basically just established as that "Guy after Orochi."  You know, that person you need in between the faux-villain and the true villain, to say "There are other evil, super powered henchman out there."   So yeah, they're not quite comparable to Ganondorf, but they're not exactly interesting either.  They do have at least some sense of style, I guess, but that's cheating off "they're in Okami" more than anything else.  Yami, the game's FRUE VILLAIN, is just a Space Flea From Nowhere...in an almost literal sense...who fights in a hamster ball...covered by a HUGE MECHA Ball.  I guess he gets points for design?



Next we move onto Oki, the wolf dude guy who...uh...is an emo prick.  There's no two ways about it; the guy lost some contest, stole the big awesome sword, and wanted to prove his worth by mastering said sword, and is emo that he can't.  Slowly he learns to be honorable as he is forced to deal with your hero, and becomes one of your stronger buddies.  This character could have worked better if he was a prominent figure throughout, but he's isolated to the last 1/3rd of the game. 

I'm...going to stop with the NPCs now, barring one more, who I just can't realistically ignore cause he's really important.  And I mean this on serious merits for once.   That of course being Waka.



Waka is, lets face it, a well done questionable figure.  He comes in, taunts our heroes, does things that seem to be basically screwing with the heroes, but at the same time, giving you cryptic advice you don't understand but suddenly ends up being true.  YOu really can't tell if he's stringing you along into a trap, or trying to be helpful, but in a way to stay under the cover of evil, as well as a way of testing Ammy to see if she's worthy.  There's really no way of telling just where Waka stands until the very end of the game, where it fully establishes him as being a good guy, but is a Failure Knight with Survivor's Guilt, yet is truly admired by how Ammy has waited patiently despite his failings and all that.  It leads to some powerful stuff in the fight with Yami.  And despite all his serious work...he's also amusing.  The guy is, of all things, French.  Why is that silly?  Cause Okami is very heavily entrenched in this Japanese setting, and everything about the game says "JAPAN"...and its not subtle either.  So having a random guy popping up saying "Ma Cherie", dressing like he does, dancing around and making weird prophecies...well, it just adds character.  Even a character with as much depth as Waka, they manage to make a goofball in a sense, and its quite amusing to seem him go from "silly weirdo" to "seriously cryptic" in under 5 seconds.


So...Okami generally does the NPC thing better than OoT.  The characters at least have defined personalities, though there are some forgettable faces that SHOULD be more memorable like, say, Otohime, but then it has some characters like Susano who are absolutely brilliant.


And finally, we reach Darksiders.  Darksiders is nice in that it has a nice small cast of characters, so surely there's more focus, right?



Well, first we get Samael whose basically just "Go there.  Done that?  Good, now go there.  ANd yes, you can trust me horseman, I'm a doctor, I always keep my promise!"  He'd be a cool character except outside of one scene where he goads War into releasing his true self, he's basically just pointing you to your next goose chase.



Then we have Ulthane who...uh...well, goes from being your enemy to your ally in all of one single Angel invasion.  I guess the scene with "Do I look like someone who fears death?" as he says that sticking his face right into point blank of War's new shiny gun is something.   Honestly, I don't get the whole purpose of him being related to the sword with the angels and all that; that felt forced.



Abaddon is next.  IN Short, ANGEL LEADER WHO BETRAYS EVERYONE AND IS NOW SATAN.  The whole "Would you rule in hell or serve in Heaven" thing is suppose to be the logic behind his character, but it comes out of nowhere and he's basically non-existent for most of the game.  Its a lot like Ganondorf in that the game tries to act like he's super important, but he lacks any real screen time, and gets barely mentioned and you end up not giving a shit.

Straga, the big dumb demon guy you fight early on and...wait, he doesn't really count, does he?  Screw him.  Not even worthy of an Image!



One genuinely cool guy who pisses me off cause I can't remember his name and its bugging me is the Merchant (EDIT: Evidently, his name is Vulgrim...).  He's a sleezey bastard who doesn't care for Demons, Angels, or really anything; he just wants Blue Souls and run his business, and the Council even acknowledges him.   What gives him points is how when you buy stuff from him, he comments on what you're doing.  Its kind of like the RE4 Merchant, but less MEMEtastic.  Still, there's a certain allure to him having lines like "What would you ask of this humble merchant?" and stuff like "You are wise as you are powerful!" when you buy stuff.   No, its not deep, but its a little extra flavor.



Following that, Azrael, the Angel who wants to repent for all the bullshit.  He basically exists to say that "yes, not all Angels are self righteous dick-weeds."  I suppose Samael kind of existed to prove something similar in Demons, by saying "Some Demons have morals and honor!"  so I guess I should credit him for that?  Just both are so trope-tastic and boring that I find myself not caring.  That's really Darksider's issue; it tries to be more epic and SUPER SERIAL, but kind of falls short.



Last character I'll bother with is Uriel, the ONLY REAL FEMALE CHARACTER IN THE GAME (ignoring the bosses where gender is completely irrelevant), who basically exists to be...a bitchy action girl who wants revenge on War.  She leads an army of DICKWAD ANGELS and wants War's Head for being the cause of Abaddon's Death...even though Abaddon brought it on himself by faking the Apocalypse...and he's now the exact enemy she ultimately wants to kill but doesn't know that.  OH BUT SHE LOVES HIM SO EVERYTHING IS JUSTIFIED.  I don't think there's anything remotely likable about her; she's a bitch, and you stab her in the face a few times, and she ends up...being an ally in the end.  Well, guess what? She fulfilled the cliche!  That being "The only female in a sausage fest, enemy or ally, will ultimately survive til the end of the game AND be on the hero's side!"    She leaves the game cryptically, but not to worry, War's Frat Boys Brethren Horsemen are coming to aid him!

...yeah, Darksiders, for all its epic build up, adult approach, and all that shit...isn't really that much better than OoT at this.  Heck, in some ways its worse, cause it has voice acting, and more resources and stuff to work with, and higher expectations.  OoT can at least say "I'm old!" as a defense./

Ignoring how good these games are its core in this regard, Okami is definitely the best at the supporting cast thing.  If nothing else, it makes us remember the big characters like Susano and Waka, as well as having some gimmicky lesser characters like the whole Sparrow Clan.  OoT and Darksiders can duke it out for whose next, both aren't really that good; I give OoT the win cause of the seniority thing as well as having lower standards and less technology, memory, etc. to work with, so it at least has excuses.  And it wasn't TOO bad at it since it at least gave us the Gorons and a bunch of Lesbian Thieves.  Darksiders mostly just gave us the Merchant, a pansy angel, a dickwad angel, a bitch, and an HONORABLE DEMON!!!


...yeah, I analyzed these casts far more than anyone probably should, but what of it?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 06:28:04 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Though, it is worth noting that Okami has its own counter to the Zoras, shockingly enough.  That being the Sparrow Clan.  The difference?  They're FAR MORE AWESMOE.  Why?  Cause they're a group of YAKUZA BIRD PEOPLE, ruled by basically a bird version of Marlin Brando.  I really shouldn't have to say anything more, cause its all self explanatory.  Again, Okami goes the extra length and makes its little minor tribes like that randomly awesome!
I think it's worth noting that I had completely forgotten that these things existed. Just 'cause something is interesting when playing through, does not make it memorable.

Quote
Contrast this to OoT, where they refuse to kill ANYBODY.  If someone is "Dead", it was done between the 7 years, where Link is going to reverse that anyway and its not actually happening.  Nobody dies in a Zelda game; they merely get "Sealed off" or "kidnapped" or "disappear."
Funny you should mention that. I've been replaying OoT lately and, in the part I was playing this morning, I found a random guard in Hyrule Market after Zelda escapes. He tells you that she was waiting to give you the Ocarina and then the text... slows... down. Tried talking again and it just said "He's not moving any more..." I was honestly surprised to find it, which kinda proves your point, but also contradicts it - apparently there is death in Zelda!

Quote
Yes, its not more interesting than Ganondorf, but at least Okami isn't trying to make an established character out of them; they're just there to be adversaries.  Ganondorf is a genuine character introduced early, and killed off late.  Orochi is a faux-final boss, where you beat him then the game goes "NO, JUST KIDDING, GAME NOT OVER" so its sensible he's not got many scenes.  Ninetails is basically just established as that "Guy after Orochi."  You know, that person you need in between the faux-villain and the true villain, to say "There are other evil, super powered henchman out there."   So yeah, they're not quite comparable to Ganondorf, but they're not exactly interesting either.  They do have at least some sense of style, I guess, but that's cheating off "they're in Okami" more than anything else.  Yami, the game's FRUE VILLAIN, is just a Space Flea From Nowhere...in an almost literal sense...who fights in a hamster ball...covered by a HUGE MECHA Ball.  I guess he gets points for design?
So, they're more comparable to Zelda bosses who, for the most part, are not mentioned at all. The only one who I think is is Volvagia, which is "Ancient dragon that has been revived to eat Gorons" - would be terrible, except, as you've already said, the Gorons were done well, so we actually really give a crap about him eating them.

Can't really comment on Darksiders, never played it, but otherwise, just casually agreeing with your assessments. I think OoT doesn't stand well on its own and was really designed to be a sequel to the older games - Link had some (albeit minor) characterisation in some of those, and Ganon(dorf) was established as a threat back in ALttP (more than the others, at least) - as a point, that is a Zelda game done right (for all that I prefer OoT or MM); it gets the established villain in Agahnim, the major threat in Ganon, a Damsel in Distress Princess who IS NOTHING MORE and... okay they still fail on the characterisation of Link. But that's what Link's Awakening was for, right?

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Volvagia isn't quite the same as Orochi, Ninetails, etc.  I mean this in a more neutral way in that tehy're not quite comparable rather than being better/worse.

Orochi is established as the BIG BAD early on; he's the game's backstory, and clearly a big villain.  The game really wants you to think he's the ultimate evil and even acts like he is the direct cause of all the shit going down.  When you beat him, in the "Disc 1 Final Dungeon" scenario, complete with its massively epic showdown, the game then reveals that he is, fittingly enough, just "The Dragon" (both in the literal and figurative trope sense) who was guarding a much greater evil, which we ultimately learn, long story short, is Yami, the Lord of Darkness himself.

Ninetails is kind of like that too, or at least, someone the game wants you to think may be the cause of the problems, if briefly.  This isn't like, say, Blight who we know is just the cause of one localized issue, Ninetails is clearly pulling strings and what not from behind the scenes.  Its just a question of "Is it the cause of the problem, or is it just another herald of some greater force?"  Again, like Orochi, we also get a big dungeon that sort of pretends to be the final dungeon, if in a different way.

They're also "Final Bosses" of their respective arches; Okami is split into 3 major sections, all based around different sections of the world and...well, I'll get to that part of the rant later.  Generally speaking though...

Volvagia is just "A legendary Dragon" and not much more.  They give him some backstory cause it doesn't hurt to at least give your bosses SOME plot, rather than them all being Generic-End Dungeon Guys.  Its kind of like Blind in ALttP has a very barebones backstory, but at least he HAS one, unlike every other boss in the game.  The entire game, especially in the 2nd half, we are to believe that Ganondorf is the big bad, and this stays true the entire way.  Volvagia is just one of his minions he releases and something you need to stop.  Volvagia is never your ultimate goal; just an immediate threat you need to take care of. 

This is why I find it hard to compare Volvagia to Orochi or Ninetails, two characters who the game at least tries to pretend are the big evils.  Volvagia is closer to, say, the 2 Owls you fight, who are clearly NOT the cause of the evil, just demons that got unleashed by the darkness who are a threat, and need to be stopped.  Minor little plot for what is essentially a filler boss at the end of the dungeon; that's what these two are.

I suppose Twinrova (SP?) from the Spirit Temple falls under this category.  Actually, I left them off the rant, but they deserve a mention only cause it is an example of OoT actually trying to be creative with writing; they did have an amusing Death Scene, after all.


...no, this isn't really part of my rant.  I'm just going into depth about the response cause...well...that's what I do!  The rant will always be preceded by the BIG BOLD LETTERS for the next section.


Quote
Funny you should mention that. I've been replaying OoT lately and, in the part I was playing this morning, I found a random guard in Hyrule Market after Zelda escapes. He tells you that she was waiting to give you the Ocarina and then the text... slows... down. Tried talking again and it just said "He's not moving any more..." I was honestly surprised to find it, which kinda proves your point, but also contradicts it - apparently there is death in Zelda!

...interesting.  But then that begs the question of "Do Red Shirts count as people?"  I guess it disproves "NOBODY DIES IN ZELDA" making me amend the statement to "Nobody with a remote degree of significance dies in Zelda."   At least in OoT anyway. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 05:48:13 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Quote
Ninetails is basically just established as that "Guy after Orochi."  You know, that person you need in between the faux-villain and the true villain, to say "There are other evil, super powered henchman out there."

That was the part that made me think Volvagia, at least.
Idly, did the Fire Temple on my replay last night. I forgot how little a threat they actually made Volvagia seem - I thought it was more than "Big dragon, will eventually eat Gorons, has the power to destroy Hyrule." I actually thought they implied that he'd already been fed -some- Gorons, but apparently not. (Add in the fact that you can just ignore the Gorons and leave them standing in their cells, and, uhh, suddenly he's a whole lot less threatening.)

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Adding in pictures to supporting cast, just to help people remember who is who, and now to MOVE ON FINALLY!

SETTING

Ah yes, setting, that area of a game that is hard to really judge cause...ok, I'm not where I'm going with this.  Either way, all three games have completely different settings from one another, so simply saying one is better than the other...well, cannot realistically be done.  At best, we can focus on where they do well within their own framework, how good they are at building and establishing their worlds, etc.  and all that generic stuff.

OoT, like most (all?) Zelda games, takes place in your typical Medieval European Fantasy setting (I guess you'd call that a Tolkien Fantasy Standard?  I'm honestly not sure); this is probably one of the most used settings in these games, but to be fair, Zelda is the series that basically established that, and its kind of something you expect, so in OoT, its really just keeping with the tradition.   Not only does it do that, as usual, it calls itself "Hyrule."  Why Hyrule?  Fuck if I know, I tend to assume it originated as a pun for "High Rule" or some such JUST BECAUSE I CAN, but honestly, I'm not sure why we care; its a name, it sounds good, we move on.

So what makes Zelda's world stand out from all those other stock Medieval Fantasy settings?  Well, naturally, the Triforce.  That's...basically its big factor in the world, for starters.  There's others, but we'll get to them later.  OoT establishes that yes, the Triforce is there and its basis behind the world's balance, blah blah blah, its your typical Macguffin.  The game takes it a step further early on from other games, and tries to explain the origins of the Triforce by giving us what is apparently the Hylian Creation Myth.  To be honest, that's actually kind of a neat touch; very few games go out of their way to talk about the nature of the world's creation, or at least the myth behind it.  Its often just "There's a world, it exists, we move on."  OoT, we get a full story about the 3 Goddesses descending, doing random shit for...well, they're Goddesses, is there EVER an explanation for why divine beings do things?  Especially ones who play no real active role in the story?   Anyway, they create the world, leave, but upon leaving, they set the Triforce down there, each representing a different Goddess and their powers, and the balance related to them.  Kind of reminds me of FF6 again, except the 3 Goddesses in question weren't at each others throats, and there was no "WORLD WILL BE DESTROYED IF BALANCE IS BROK'D!" threat.  yes, Zelda as a series predates FF6, but FF6 came up with that trinity divinity thing first...but this isn't about FF6 vs. OoT, so I really need to stop bringing up those parallels.

Now, the game begins off in a Forest Village...fitting seeing as Hyrule is NOT inhabited by humans, but by Elves, so frankly, we'll just assume that Hyrule has no human race and that the human equivalent are elves.  Granted, I think the game just refers to them as "Hylians" and sidesteps the issue entirely, so...yeah, lets just go with "Hylian" from here on in.  Of course, this village is NOT Hylian, its Kokiri, and its inhabitted by a bunch of children.
Why?  We aren't told til much later, we just know they're all children, and they all have fairies and they apparently are watched over by a REALLY BIG TALKING TREE...who dies really early in the game.  They also all dress entirely in Green, so I guess the game is trying to explain why Link has that attire for once, which is nice, but was it really necessary?  Crap, getting sidetracked!

So we learn that the Kokiri never leave the forest, and there's only one REAL weapon in the entire Village, which is apparently hidden and only a CHOSEN BRAVE ONE or something can find it.  Actually, its not really that hard to find, and I'm not sure there is a real legend behind it, just the game suggests "hey, its special cause its the ONLY SWORD HERE" and...yeah, ok, that's kind of a setting failure right there, cause I don't think the game actually explains where the sword came from, let alone why a weapon would exist in what seems to be a Utopian Forest Village of Children. 

So Link leaves the village, and Saria sees him off, making it clear that Link's adventure outside of the village is exceptional, and that no Kokiri leaves the village.  So we have it established that the Kokiri are isolated from the rest of the world, and thus probably never interact with anybody but themselves.  That's neat cause I don't think many games before OoT had a scenario like that, but its wasted on Link being a silent protagonist.  For reference, compare Link to WA4 Jude, who undergoes a similar dramatic culture change from "Utopian Isolated Society" to "Real World" and we actually see how ti effects him.  Link's response?

...we get nothing.  The game is nice enough, at least, to give us a nice picture of Hyrule Field, the Main Map Area of the game, and we can see a large scope of it.  FOR ITS TIME, this was actually a pretty scene, but naturally, N64 graphics haven't aged completely well, so it may look stock and bland now, but I don't know.   The game does play upbeat, fast music, which sounds like its going to lead into the Zelda theme but ALAS, ITS A TEASER AND AN ORIGINAL SONG.  Those bastards! ...but we're not onto the OST section of the game.
Running around, it changes between day and night.  At day, you're basically fine, at night, monsters pop up.  I...can't say this really adds anything, cause there's no plot explanation, its just "AT night, THERE ARE SKELETONS.  WHY?  CAUSE SKELETONS ARE EVIL AND NIGHT IS DARK!"  That's about the extent.  Translation? Its stock, generic, and unexplained nonsense that was a missed opportunity to actually explain stuff.

Then we get to Hyrule Castle Town, and you get an...actual sense of a busy, upbeat Urban Town and...you know, I think I'm getting too in depth, but shut up, that's the point of this rant.  I'll start being more brief here.  From here on in, we start going to various places.  We learn that each area of the world has a different race associated with it.  The Forest has the Kokiri, the...generic urban terrain, I guess, has the Hylians, which there's a second village called Kakariko Village nearbye, which is small, but slowly building.  Then there's a HUGE VOLCANO called Death Mountain, where the Gorons live, and far off on the other side of Hyrule Field, we have Lake Hylia, home of the Zoras, and the desert/badlands area called Gerudo Valley, home of the Gerudo (subtle anyone?)

While its cheap, and boring and not explained why none of these races really interact much on a regular basis OUTSIDE of the apparently Royal Family of Hyrule having connections with the Goron Chief and the Zora King, I guess it gets the job established that each race lives where they are most comfortable.   Generally speaking, when it comes to setting, the first half of the game doesn't have much beyond the basics.  It doesn't really build the world beyond what I said, and lets face it, its small.  Its suppose to be only one country, I guess, but the game doesn't really establish other areas outside of Hyrule, let alone suggest they exist.  This makes it seem like Hyrule is in this own little bubble and...well, I think you can see wehre I'm going with this.  Its hard to tell if Hyrule IS the world being downplayed and thus we just sort of pretend the scope is much larger, or just a section of the world, and thus lowering the scope.  Later games naturally establish Hyrule as being just a part of the world, and I guess Link's Awakening kind of did too.  Though, I might be alone on this, but I can't help but feel OoT's version of Hyrule feels...smaller.  Compare it to some of the earlier games and you'll see what I mean.  It kind of hurts the Adventure feel the game is suppose to give.

Oh yeah, the game also establishes that 3 of these races have special objects that open up a big freaking door in a town not related to any of these and...you know, its just an excuse for going to 3 different dungeons.

Then kicks in the 2nd half of the game...the Adult arc.  Here, Ganondorf has caused shit to go down, and now the world is in a crappy place.  It tries to say that Ganondorf is basically the ruler of the world, and at first, it does it well by showing the once lively vibrant Hyrule Castle Town as...now nothing more than a Ghost TOwn with zombies Redeads running around.  Its really a stark contrast to the original Hyrule Castle Town and paints the image well...the thing is though, how does the game follow up?

Kakariko Village shows...quite the opposite.  It shows people basically going on with their lives, just elsewhere, and its lively and vibrant.  I can understand the people moving, but if Hyrule really is in a shitty state, shouldn't the people there be showing more willingness to care about the outside world?  Furthermore, regarding the outside world is more or less unchanged...ok, so now there are Poes running around, but in truth, they don't really do much.  They're just "more enemies" and it doesn't add to much.  Hyrule Field looks the same, and only some mild nuances like Death Mountain having a big red halo around it instead of its typical smoke cloud.   Rather than go into details at this point, I'll just say Adult Arc is very hit and miss.  Some areas are well handled with the "World is fucked" scenario, others...not so much.  Take for example, Goron Mountain.

Yeah, it being deserted is neat, but...that's really all there is.  No Gorons, it doesn't really feel bad, more...just weird.  So what could have screwed this up?  Simply put, the music that plays here is the same as the music that plays 7 years prior, where the city was booming and everything, and while yes, there was a crisis, it wasn't one that was an immediate threat (More treated like it could matter in the future and thus the sooner dealt with, the better).  Again, I hate to do this comparison, but I can't help but compare it to WoR in FF6, cause it does such a similar scenario of "Villain makes shit go to hell" but does it so much better.  Just look at just about any town, and the music alone, if not the appearance, tells you the mood of the town; yeah, South Figaro has the standard town theme, but when you talk to the Citizens, they've got a mood of "Screw Kefka, we're living our lives how we damn please!" so its completely appropriate there.  In OoT, it doesn't deal with music transitions like this at all; its the same place in the end, only less lively, and when you do rescue all the Gorons, it doesn't really give you a sense of accomplishment.  This is a primary example of failing to really capture the setting. 

So I guess overall, OoT's setting is hit or miss.  The Child Arc in general didn't have much to establish, which can be considered a flaw of the setting itself if you want to twist it, but does some neat things like the creation myth, the Adult section is some areas done well (Hyrule Castle Town) and some areas...not so much (Goron City.)   The game didn't really try at setting too hard, I feel, perhaps because of worse standards, but again, I'm not willing to use that as a total pass to points where it didn't succeed.


So next up, Okami.  Okami takes place in a feudal Japan setting, and its very much open about it too.  It doesn't try to pretend to be anything but that.  From the game's map having a strong resemblance to Japan itself, to the game calling its land "Nippon", the game does not try to hide its setting.  This is a good thing since it means it readily establishes itself early, and the player knows more what to expect.  The game is very good at keeping this Japanese feel too.  The Music, for starters, is all very classical japanese style; I'll get into more of that later on, but I can't avoid talking about that, cause it helps sell the game in that regard.  The art style is of that classic Japanese Paintbrush style in addition to that helping making the game clear "THIS IS ALL JAPANESE FOLKLORE!"  Not to mention all the character names are very strongly Japanese...

Now, its worth noting that in the past, I have complained to some people about Persona 4 refusing to change names.  They sounded way too Japanese, and I don't think that helped the game; its a game where I feel an effort of localization in the character names could have helped, cause I don't feel "Modern Japan" was really all that integral to the setting.  "Modern" part?  Sure.  Japan?  Not so much.  In Okami, however, its quite opposite; the Japanese names actually help add to the game.   And yes, I'm aware some people will probably find my stance on this completely absurd, but its worth noting that Persona 4 felt like it was trying too hard to be "PURE JAPANESE!!!" when it added nothing to the game (using Japanese Honoraries when they were speaking English sure as hell didn't help either, at least from my experience)

Now first off, lets get one thing out of the way; Okami did have some localization with names, but not in a way that detracted from its "spirit".  For example, the legendary hero "Nagi" was, near as I can tell, "Izanagi" in Japan.  "Izanagi" isn't hard to say, but its kind of a mouthful compared to "Nagi" which still sounds Japanese and is much easier to say and spell out, and is generally more concise, but at the same time, "Nagi" still retains some of its original name, being just a short hand version of that in a sense.   By keeping the names at least retaining some of their Japanese origins, but making them easier to read and pronounce in English, it finds a good middle ground that doesn't detract from the setting, nor alienate the non-Japanese player.  This is an ideal case of Localization.  One could argue its insulting the player intelligence, but personally, I just find it easier saying "Kushi" than "Kushinada" only cause its 2 less syllables <.<

Considering all this, Okami really sells its Feudal Japanese setting well.  There are even little minor touches like the consistent usage of Cherry Blossoms, the fact that your "bombs" are actually oversized fireworks, and heck, they even kept the enemy names in Japanese Writing when they appear.  Yeah, sure, you can't read them, but...for once, I find myself not caring; it fits the game, and frankly with a name like "Okami" you should be expecting a lot of Japanese!

So with Okami getting its core setting down pact, what about the little minor touches?  Well, you get a better sense of scope than in OoT.  To giev you an idea, Shinshu Fields is about the same size as Hyrule Fields...well, no, that's overselling it, but it is rather large.  And yet, there are at least 3 other areas of equal size in the game.  It adds to the "Adventure" feel, certainly.  Now that this meaningless distinction is made...

More importantly, what about the whole CURSED LAND factor?  Well, the cursed areas really stand out and are very clearly cursed.  When you purify the area, you get a big rejuvenation scene...giving you a strong sense of "You accomplished something!" and it doubles the size of the travers-able area.    Towns that are under some sort of curse also give a strong sense of that curse, and in the case of Wep'keer, it actually feels like a really cold Mountain Town.  I don't mean "oh, there's Snow!" but rather, there's actually a sense that its a cold area, as you can even see visual biting cold winds and such.  Speaking of wind, a nice touch Okami has is that no matter where you are, you can see a black winds in the sky, sort of reminding you that evil is not gone, and can return to the area.  Does it ever happen?  No, not really, but its just a little nice attention to detail like that.

Its...really hard to explain how Okami really sells its setting; its something you just kind of need to see.  The last little bit I guess I can touch up on is the actual names used; its not just Japanese names, but a lot of them are based off Japanese Mythology, Folklore, etc.  Due to this, you can pretty much tell that the game is very spiritual in nature, and that's the nature of its magic, and all that.  Its a mythological based setting, so that alone just kind of writes itself.  Contrast this to OoT where, like many games, it just kind of fridge logics' it magical elements, saying "Oh, yeah, magic and fairies and such exist!  Its a fantasy setting, deal!"  To Explain it in Okami, you basically just look up Japanese Myths, Folklore, etc., twist what you learn into someway that fits a game and doesn't care about accuracy, and well...

...ok, easier way to explain?  Take Valkyrie Profile.  Got that?  Good.  Go look in Norse Myths and such for a better understanding of the game.  Did that?  Alright, you'll note that VP takes a lot of...liberties, but having basic knowledge of Norse Mythology helps in some areas of understanding VP's setting, and you just knid of assume things were changed for narrative purposes.  Okami?  same deal, just different part of the world.


And speaking of a different part of the world, we move from a setting who was strongly influenced by eastern factors to one that is strongly influenced by Western factors!  Darksiders is a game based on playing as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse...which basically means "yes, Judeo-Christian Roots ahoy!"  Or at least, that's what yo'd think, but in reality, the game only bases it off that very loosely.  There's a Heaven, ruled by God The Creator, and a Hell, ruled by Satan The Destroyer.  Hell has demons, Heaven has Angels.  They have names ranging from...all over the place.  No, seriously; the first big demon boss you fight is named, afterall, Tiamat.  Well, shit, that's a Sumerian Myth right there, and sort of kills any hope this game has heavily influenced by the bible beyond maybe some very basic factors (oh yeah, there's hints to Adam and Eve being created in the intro, but its just background...)

...actually, speaking of the intro, it does at least give us an understanding of the game's above factors, as well as establishing that the Council is neutral, wants balance, and that the Four Horsemen are just trump-card enforcers of it used in case either side breaks out of line.  Of course, there's more to it than that cause neutral God-Complex Fucktards are NEVER totally neutral, and are ALWAYS corrupt, but lets not get into that.  Anyway, the game establishes that its basically our world, in Modern Times, by showing a place that resembles New York getting hit by meteors and demons and angels start battling, and well, that's the intro.  The first area is War running around in a city slowly collapsing around him, with people dying, Angels and Demons kicking the shit out of each other (and both wanting War Dead) and...oh hell, this is actually really cool and sells itself as being the Apocalypse.   You can even make use of the setting by picking up things like Cars and hurling them at enemies, and both the Angels and Demons are enemies alike to you (but they'll sometimes fight each other...if only off in the distance where you can't interact, I can't remember.  I seem to recall you fight a wave of demons and waves of angels alone, maybe to side step this potential inconsistency entirely.)

So after this cool establishing of the Apocalypse, you get shifted 100 years later, into a world that's completely ruined, ruled by the victorious demons, and humans are nowhere to be found.  It does a good job in making the world look completely fucked over, and anything resembling a human is basically a zombie.  The dungeons also help sell this, as you don't just do stock castles, caves, etc. but you actually travel to areas you'd expect to see in a ruined city.  For example, the second main dungeon is basically a large array of subway tunnels, involving broken down train cars and such that you can smack.

Unfortunately, I feel Darksiders' setting is...shallow.  It doesn't really go to the depths that Okami did to really establish "THIS IS MYTHOLOGICAL FEUDAL JAPAN!!!", but it shows the essentials and paints the setting well, but once you start looking for that extra something...its not there.  To the game's credit, it does have a logical explanation for how Vulgrim can be wherever War is:

War travels over large areas using these spiritual tunnels that Vulgrim showed him too, and he can only enter through speaking to Vulgrim.  So naturally, we just assume Vulgrim tags along.  Neither Okami nor OoT have an equivalent character that needs this kind of explanation too; closest are Sheik and Waka, but they can be assumed to just be watching you from the side lines, appearing when they feel like.  Seeing as Waka is really freaking old and knowledgeable about the world, its logical he'd be able to second guess Ammy's actions, while Sheik...she's a Ninja (or so we're to believe), its what they do. 

Since I covered scope with the other games, might as well here.  I wanna say that on one hand, Darksiders gives a strong sense of covering large amounts of terrain cause you really do go large distances, and the settings change dramatically, between a ruined city, to a lush forest, to your stock desert landscape.  Yet...somehow, everything feels so...compact.  While you do travel a large distance, sometimes so large you need to borrow a convenient Deus Ex Machina like a Griffon to fly you large distances (...ok, so this is only ONCE), you still get a sense of everything being compact to one small area of the world.  Considering you're dealing with a completely ruined world, and running around what are suppose to be 4 corners of the earth collecting Macguffins, its by far got the least excuse for the lack of scope.  At least in OoT, its established to be (if in later games) only one country, so it feeling smaller than other games is fair, though I stand by that it should NOT feel smaller than other Zelda games.  Okami...didn't need major scope either, but it had it.  Darksiders is a game that tries to sell your efforts, but comes short, and other times, it comes off as a it too surreal to really feel the distances.


So Okami really gets the setting right on like...all fronts.  From the obvious factors to little extra details, it establishes what it is and makes effort to get details tossed in.  OoT is very hit and miss; there are times where it does it well, other times where it just kind of shrugs and hopes it gets by, but doesn't.  In Darksiders case, it gets the bare essentials right, most notably visuals, but doesn't really go beyond that, and does little to really establish its world beyond era, and its current state.

----
At this point, I'm not sure what direction I want to take in the rant.  I want to hold off on gameplay for a while longer, so do you guys have any suggestions of what to work with next?  If I don't get answers, don't blame me for going off in a completely bizarre direction!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 06:32:40 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Actually, its not really that hard to find, and I'm not sure there is a real legend behind it, just the game suggests "hey, its special cause its the ONLY SWORD HERE" and...yeah, ok, that's kind of a setting failure right there, cause I don't think the game actually explains where the sword came from, let alone why a weapon would exist in what seems to be a Utopian Forest Village of Children.

Actually, I think it's implied that it's some kind of heirloom - Mido seems to think it's a huge offence that you've taken the sword, and when you get it, it says it's a 'hidden treasure of the Kokiri, but you can borrow it for a while,' so I'd assume it's some pseudo-sacred object.

Quote
I...can't say this really adds anything, cause there's no plot explanation, its just "AT night, THERE ARE SKELETONS.  WHY?  CAUSE SKELETONS ARE EVIL AND NIGHT IS DARK!"  That's about the extent.  Translation? Its stock, generic, and unexplained nonsense that was a missed opportunity to actually explain stuff.

Kokiri who try to leave the forest become Skull Kids, while people who try to enter the forest become Stalchildren, if I remember correctly. Maybe the other way round. It is explained somewhere, I think it is a combination of Navi's monster descriptions and the Kokiri girl in the Biggoron Quest.

Quote
Though, I might be alone on this, but I can't help but feel OoT's version of Hyrule feels...smaller.  Compare it to some of the earlier games and you'll see what I mean.  It kind of hurts the Adventure feel the game is suppose to give.

Depends on how you look at it, honestly. ALttP's version of Hyrule was quite empty, with only two (I think? - Kakariko and the castle) areas with any contact whatsoever - the rest is just a load of generic landscapes with the odd dungeon thrown in. I feel OoT manages a lot more than that, and the earlier games had even less civilisation. I'd say the adventuring side is a lot smaller, but the world itself feels a lot bigger than most games in the series (including the later ones - but then, MM and TWW aren't exactly the best for that.)

100% agreed on the analysis of the adult world - Goron City having, say, the music from the Graveyard (or even no music at all) would have been amazing and really quite creepy.

Quote
Contrast this to OoT where, like many games, it just kind of fridge logics' it magical elements, saying "Oh, yeah, magic and fairies and such exist!  Its a fantasy setting, deal!"

Hold up, wasn't one of your good points on OoT that it explained all of this? The Goddesses, the Triforce, all of that? That's why the fantasy exists. Now, I can see arguing that going 'world was created, we have proof of this' is a really easy way out, but then that's a negative where you said it was positive earlier. (Personally, I like that they explain the world, but hate the way that they do it, which is what it sounds like you're getting at?)

Liking the analysis on Okami - the setting is the exact thing that sold that game to me, since I thought the gameplay was pretty dull and bought it pretty much entirely for having interesting graphics. The fact that the setting managed to keep my interest for as long as it did is really something, and your analysis here really does it justice.

For the next section, I'd assume something like Graphics and/or Music are the best bet, given how many times you've commented on them and how much they affect the Setting. ^^

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Quote
Hold up, wasn't one of your good points on OoT that it explained all of this? The Goddesses, the Triforce, all of that? That's why the fantasy exists. Now, I can see arguing that going 'world was created, we have proof of this' is a really easy way out, but then that's a negative where you said it was positive earlier. (Personally, I like that they explain the world, but hate the way that they do it, which is what it sounds like you're getting at?)

They explain the world was created and the origin story.  They don't explain anything beyond that.  FF6 has the Goddess thing but they openly say "The Goddesses created magic."  OoT just says "They created the Tri-force" and then kind of uses "its a fantasy setting" to make everything work from there.  There's nothing even linking magic to the Triforce either; yes, the 3 spells are based around the 3 Goddesses, but it sort of goes away once you realize there's other magic like the twin sorceresses that have nothing to do with the Triforce  Its not really a flaw of the setting so much as an example of a typical fantasy setting doing little to explain itself.

There's a difference between "This is the world's creation myth!" and "This is why there's fantasy elements!"  One does not necessarily lead to the other; again, it says 'World is created...and its a fantasy world, deal!"  That's about it.  No real explanation of the nature of many things, you just kind of assume it goes from there.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5583
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Going over the technical merits (graphics, music, and the like) might be worthwhile, but involves a lot of "good for the time" and "hasn't aged well", so not necessarily interesting.  More detail on how the games use their music and things like that might be good?  Otherwise it's probably best to move on to things like dungeon design and quest structure.
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Guess I'll go into Music, Graphics, etc, next so...

VISUAL STYLE

I figure that works better than "Graphics" cause graphics unfairly favors the newer games relative to the older ones (ie Okami and Darksiders have a huge edge on Ocarina of Time.)   This section I'll mostly be discussing how things look, and be discussing graphics a bit in this context.  This won't be a long one cause there isn't much TOO discuss, mind but I figure it can't hurt!

Well, first off OoT.  Hailing from the N64 era where Polygons reigned supreme, OoT uses very elaborate, large, obvious polygons and well...honestly, its hard to look at some of the characters in that game and not just find them ugly.  This ties nito the whole "DID NOT AGE WELL"; the graphics were not bad for its time, mind you, cause that was the standard.  At least, I don't remember going "This game looks ugly" when I first saw it, like, say, a certain famous early PS1 RPG that is basically the most popular jRPG of all time worldwide, where upon the FIRST time I saw that game in action, I went "Oh god, these characters are atrocious" and I DID play it back during its "prime" (if you can't tell which game I'm talking about, you fail at life).  OoT's graphics are more a representation of a time when such standards were much lower, but you look at the game and realize that its nice we moved on from that era.  Its really quite ugly, and its the kind of game that if it were remade, a simple visual face lift using, say, Twilight Princess Graphics (which from what I've seen, while not TOP OF THE LINE, were certainly adequate enough.)  The most obvious thing is how polygon characters have such oddly shaped faces, noses, etc.  Its Polygons, I know, but the edges are really exaggerated on some characters; it really stands out with Nabooru whom I can only assume was meant to be attractive, but she certainly doesn't GIVE that impression now due to the graphical style!

Ok, so moving on from the whole "OoT's graphics didn't age well" how is it on art style?  Well, I can't think of a better way to describe it other than "generic."  This isn't a bad thing necessarily so much as the game just doesn't have any sort of unique flair in that regard.  Characters look about what you'd expect (at least...going based off their conceptual art that doesn't get hit by Old Polygon Syndrome); villagers look like generic people, though the game did at least make a nice variety of them, as I don't think there's a single truly generic townsmen of Human/Hylian/etc. characters.  This unfortunately doesn't extend to other races, as there are generic Gorons, Gerudo and Zoras; I honestly can't remember if Kokiri had a generic look to them, but being little forest pansies, I find myself not caring.  So...here's OoT with the inconsistencies again!  Honestly, OoT is pretty consistent about being inconsistent the more I look at it.  It looks like its doing something rather well (in this case, generic human villager look) but then turn around and screw it up elsewhere (generic non-human looks.)

Its also worth noting that, like I said in the past, the game kind of fails at subtlety.   You see Ganondorf, and you immediately go "HE'S THE BAD GUY"; yes, the game also tells you this, but it does lead to scenarios like "who the fuck would trust THIS guy?"   Yes, it is racial profiling, but shut up.  For the Non-Human-like races, the basic "If they don't look different, they are not important" thing kicks in here.  This is especially prominent in OoT, cause jRPGs on the 2D era have used generic looking characters as semi-important figures; yeah, all they did was "take generic sprite, add a name to the character, now he pretends to be important!", but they still did it.  Though, thinking on it, I wanna say ALttP didn't actually have any generic human sprites, and everyone looked different, which is...something...for that game.  Now yes, not fair comparison; a lot easier and less spacious for a bunch of unique sprites to exist, compared to a bunch of polygonal figures, so I won't really hold that strongly against OoT in that regard, but would it have hurt to, I dunno, at least make a distinguished Male and Female version for Gorons and Zoras?  I know Gerudos, the point is they are ALL female...and yet, they have two distinguished looks there (even if...the bridge guard looks really fucking ugly)...hence why they get a bye.

Designs as far areas go...nothing really stands out.  Again, the game looks like what you'd expect.  Volcano looks like the interior of a Volcano, a Forest looks like a forest, etc.  There's nothing stand out in these regards.  To OoT's credit, the scenery aged far more gracefully than the characters.  While Hyrule Field certainly looks old and archaic, it still has at least some aesthetic appeal in it, and could pass for a DS game or something in modern times; no, it wouldn't be GOOD by today's standards by any stretch, but not being "ugly as shit" is certainly not a bad thing!

One last thing I guess is enemy designs and other things related to it.  OoT, lets face it, uses about as stock enemies as you can get.  Granted, its mostly taking from previous Zelda games and trying to adapt them to a now 3D look, but still, you fight stock enemies.  Bats, zombie-like enemies, Skeletons, Lizard Men, you name it.   The enemies are all pretty standard fair, and I'm not entirely convinced they have a unique Zelda-touch to them, cause the game just looks so much different than previous entries (this is not necessarily a bad thing so much as just indicating its not unique.)  When enemies die, the game does try at least some sense of style, in having them burst into flames.  That's a neat effect for the time, and shows a sense of "hey look, cool death animation" so props to that.  Nothing amazing by today's standards, but I suppose all Zelda games had their own little unique death animations, so ist nice they tried to incorporate something like that in OoT. 


So next up, Okami.  Okami is a game that right from the start has a very unique look to it.  Its a classical Japanese Ink Style and the game looks very unrealistic as a result.  It very much tries to sell itself on the visuals, not for how realistic it is, but just based on simple artistic beauty.  This isn't that obvious at first, cause the early stuff does not have much to really awe at.  Yeah, its got a unique look, and good usage of colors, but the game does not really do anything to wow you.  The characters also look awkward and weird.  They have no facial figures outside of a nose, and perhaps facial hair if applicable; they're shaped oddly, and...yeah, the game just kind of makes you scratch your head. 

You grow use to it, and start to actually grow fond of it even, but the initial reaction I found was something you needed to overcome, at least if you're not initially into that art style.  Though, this happens notably after you start to appreciate Okami's artistic beauty.  Branching away from characters, you still look at Okami, and once the first town is restored, you start to see some strong, nice looking scenery.  Nothing overwhelming, but it shows that yes, this odd, unique look does have some merit.  Then you reach your first root; you learn you're suppose to do this to get rid of the EVIL CURSE, and you use the Growth spell you learned.   You expect to see a simple "Evil Mist Disappears" scene, maybe with the sapling growing big, cause most games do that.    But what do you actually get?  This is something that cannot be described, so I'll let Youtube doe the talking for the Rejuvenation Scene in Okami.

THIS is the scene that makes you finally understand what you're in for.  Its not a generic "evil disappears" but a full on scene of absolute artistic beauty that shows a strong sense of "we want you to appreciate this game!"  Its absolutely stunning scene for something that could have gotten away with a simple "distance shot of mist disappearing."  From this point on, you start to really awe in Okami's atmosphere.  You start to notice all the nuances of the game's graphical style, and suddenly the oddities start to come off as aesthetics.  Yeah, the game tried to make it clear it was a game of art early on with the Celestial Brush, but that could just be seen as a unique gameplay mechanic (and in some sense, it is mostly just that).  Its stuff like this that make Okami really stand out.

The game has a love for a floral motif naturally; its a game about restoring nature, so it fits.  When Ammy runs, a trail of flowers follows her; if she's in a cursed zone, a trail of withered flowers follows her.  The faster she runs, the larger, and more elaborate the plans are.  When you fight enemies, they die in an exaggerated explosive visual way, instead of just kind of casually disappearing.  To add to this, the game even lets you attempt a "Floral Finish" and make their deaths even MORE of a visual sight.  Enemies generally burst into huge flowers and explode.  Speaking of battles, they're trippy!  Zelda keeps battles happening in the same area as you are; Okami shifts to an RPG-like Battle Mode, with a surreal look and gives you this "You are in a battle! There are bad things!" around it.

Now, I slammed OoT for not being subtle, so what about Okami?  I can't really say its subtle cause the game doesn't really have anything to be subtle about.  I mean, there are no real human-villainous figures like Ganondorf, no consistent Damsel in Distress characters like Zelda, what have you.  I suppose Oki does look like an emo-git of a Dog Warrior Guy so he's a clear case of "Design precedes the character" but yeah, I think Okami is more of an N/A there.   I can't give the game points for appropriate subtlety, but at the same time, the game didn't really have anything to be subtle about. 

Regarding NPC looks, Okami does do a good job of keeping characters looking unique, from what I recall.  It also has a lot of named characters whom when you meet for the first time, it does a little cheesy "THIS IS A NEW CHARACTER.  HERE IS HIS NAME.  NOTICE HOW HE'S CENTERED ON THE CAMERA" thing to basically indicate "no, you haven't met this guy/girl before."   I seem to recall everyone in Kamiki Village having a name and a unique design for example, though there's like 7 people in the entire village, so that wasn't hard.  If there's one place to be filled with generic, stock looking characters, it'd be Sei-an and that's the one place I'm struggling to think about.

Other visual aspects about the game...well...look at setting; it covers a lot of what can be said well.  The game really sells itself on visuals, though it does take some getting use to, be once you do, its quite a beautiful aesthetic experience.   Honestly, its hard to do Okami justice on its aesthetics in a review/rant like this; its a game that really needs to be scene to understand appropriately.  Now that I've said all that, someone is going to look at the game, and probably say "Meeple, you're an idiot and the game looks awful.  shut up and go burn in hell."

Regarding graphics and its aging...the nature of Okami's style is one that should withstand the effects of time, cause it didn't try to be realistic or anything.   It tried to capture a specific Japanese painting style, and basically needs to be judged on how well done it was in that regard.  This is contrast to OoT where it was made during that era where they're trying to get more and more realistic with character looks each entry of gaming, and early Polygons are some of the worst graphics when it comes to standing the test of time.

Now, we have Darksiders.  The newest game, on the 360 and the PS3, its a game that took towards the "realistic look" approach for a game.  Ok, nothing wrong with that; if it looks realistic, it helps with immersion, and better graphics generally means better looking visuals, etc.  Darksiders does not really disappoint in that regard either; game looks cool and realistic enough in those regards, some of the special effects are typical neat stuff you'd see in action movies, etc.  What I'm getting at is "yes, Darksiders has good graphics."

The problem I have with this is...why are we aiming for realism in a game where NOT A SINGLE CHARACTER IS SUPPOSE TO BE HUMAN?  Ok, so the Angels have a human-like appearance, but that's about as close as we get.   Demons have nothing to be realistically compared too, so a realistic look doesn't really do much there, and War...honestly, War needs his own section, so lets get to that!

War maybe one of the most ugly designed characters ever.  Lets just take a look at him.



Can you tell what the artist was aiming at there?  Cause I sure as hell can't.  I mean, yeah, Link is an elf with a green tunic, white tights, and a silly green cap, but that's a classic design, and you don't fuck with the classics; he'd probably be mocked NOW if he was created NOW, but as it stands, its what people come to expect of him, so nobody thinks twice for that reason (this is the case with a lot of classic designs actually; character looks silly when yo think about it, but they're so iconic, you just shrug and move on.  I'm not trying to put down Link's design here)  Amaterasu is just a white wolf with red make-up on her; simple, but a design like that doesn't need to be complicated to be memorable.  War, though...seriously, I think Yahtzee explained his design best which I will paraphrase below!

"The artist was given a pen and paper, and started drawing, and didn't know when to stop.  As a result, you know how in World of Warcraft, you get a whole lot of armor that doesn't look like it fits together, but you use it anyway cause of the awesome stat boosts, leading your character to looking like a fashion disaster?  That's War!"


The Demons are...stock demons.  I mean really, there's nothing special about them.  They look big, evil, demonic, etc.  The Angels...all have a similar look to them at least.  They all have white/pale blonde hair, and dark-tan skin.  This is actually a neat touch, cause instead of being the standard "Blonde Haired, Fair Skinned" pansies that are often depicted as Angels, it displays them in a little different manner. Furthermore, they're decked out in big shiny armor and energy based weapons (including a HUGE FUCKING HAND HELD ANGELIC PARTICLE CANNON), not in nice fancy white-robes, to sell us on the illusion that yes, Angels CAN fight, and they ARE prepared for war.  So I'll give the angelic designs something.  I'd give them more props if Uriel wasn't an ugly wench, which is important cause she's the ONLY FEMALE IN THE GAME THAT RESEMBLES A HUMAN (and really, might as well be the only female in the game, PERIOD.)  I don't mind an occasional ugly female, but when you're lugging around War's ugly ass the entire game, it'd be nice to get some aesthetic appeal from a character, and I figured a FEMALE ANGEL is a prime target.
To give one thing to Uriel, she dresses presentably.  Instead of being dressed in a way that says "I AM FANSERVICE!" and all that.  No, she dresses as you'd expect a female would dress; sure, her armor has a breast plate on it, but that's a sense of realism, I guess; she's otherwise dressed entirely in heavy armor, like you know, how a female warrior SHOULD dress in such a setting.  Not a skin tight outfit, with cleavage, unsupported breasts, completely unprotected outside of maybe shoulder pads.  So good job on at least not trying to make your only female character nothing but a sex symbol, I guess.

The areas you traverse...well, they don't look out of place but outside of the Forest area, which is quite pretty, there's a lot of Grey and Brown in the game.  I mean, yes, a desert should be brown, but its still pretty boring and monotone to look at it.  A deserted, ruined city is similar in that regard, and the dungeons taking places in man-made structures are just so monotone in appearance, between the grey subway, or the dark-blue mansions.  There's an occasional room that looks different here and there, like the fiery rooms, but its not enough.  This makes all the dungeons in the game pretty forgettable, and they meld together.  I don't have problems remembering what happened where in OoT and Okami cause each area had a unique look to it;  the only exception might be how OoT has the twp Spirit Temples, but lets be honest; its the same dungeon, being done as an adult and as a kid, it SHOULD look the same and by nature, its hard to distinguish what happens during which, so that's not really a flaw of the game as much as an unavoidable factor of a dungeon of that style.  Darksiders though, outside of remembering stuff like "oh, right, you use that tool, you don't get that til x dungeon, meaning it had to be in that dungeon!", its hard to remember what happens where.

As far as enemies go and such...they're stock evil enemy designs.  The game takes a page from the book of God of War, and naturally decides "violence is justified if it looks cool!"  The game loves to show blood, and gore, and things getting mangled if it can.  Whether it be ripping a giant worm from the inside, to crushing a zombie's face with War's over-sized left hand, to his elaborate "Slice guys leg off then stab them IN THE FACE" to...you get the point, the game loves its gore.  To credit it, the game shows a level of restraint that God of War does not show...I mean after all, I did acknowledge that Uriel dresses like what you'd think a female warrior would look like.  If this was God of War, I'm sure Uriel's outfit would involve a bare midriff, probably at least one of her legs would be uncovered, and most likely have a see-through breast plate that we can clearly see her nipples.    So props to only sticking to "VIOLENCE IS AWESOME" and not going into "TITS AND ASS!" territory, Darksiders; nice that some games can show SOME restraint despite wanting to rip off other games.l  Either way, the game's sense of killing enemies is basically watching them get gorily murdered by war, turning into blue souls, then disappearing.  Its like we've gone back to the Mortal Kombat philosophy that most gamers are adolescents who think VIOLENCE IS THE COOLEST THING EVER...well, no, perhaps they were trying for more of a 300 style violence, in going for a "Blood as a fluid, artistic visual effect", but I really can't tell.  Frankly, I just think they tossed blood and gore in there for the sake of making the game look more adult.


So basically, Darksiders tries to be ADULT AND REALISTIC even though the game doesn't have any freaking humans, and a general lack of Human-loking characters and as a result, is the least realistic game by extension, which kind of feels like it contradicts itself.  OoT is a game mostly running off an older time where they were still banging out the mechanics, and its hurt by its age, but for that reason, can be forgiven in that regard (for aesthetics, I am more willing to give credit to a "for its time" remark cause the nature of it demands it.  Mind you, this assumes the game looked fine relative to the time frame it was made) as well; otherwise, its pretty generic.  Okami...like I said before, to really do its aesthetics justice in a review is almost impossible; its a game that needs to really be seen to appreciate in this regard.  The one scene I showed above is really just a taste of the game as a whole (though, at the same time, probably the highlight of the aesthetics, go figure.)

And...well, because I showed a big picture of War's ugly ass, I guess I need to give Okami and OoT some fair treatment in that regard, so here are generic pics of Amaterasu and Link!


« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:19:44 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
I honestly can't remember if Kokiri had a generic look to them
Sort of. There are about 3-4 different Kokiri (IIRC, there are two generic males and a generic female, although there might be two female ones.)
Also, idly, there are actually two generic types of Zora, they're just not that obviously different. >.> (It's basically face shape and nothing else, and all it is is an obvious attempt at adding different sexes)

Quote
Designs as far areas go...nothing really stands out.  Again, the game looks like what you'd expect.  Volcano looks like the interior of a Volcano, a Forest looks like a forest, etc.  There's nothing stand out in these regards.  To OoT's credit, the scenery aged far more gracefully than the characters.  While Hyrule Field certainly looks old and archaic, it still has at least some aesthetic appeal in it, and could pass for a DS game or something in modern times; no, it wouldn't be GOOD by today's standards by any stretch, but not being "ugly as shit" is certainly not a bad thing!
Okay, this has to be the first point I've really completely disagreed with you on. I think OoT, even by today's standards, has amazing environments - yes, 'the forest looks like a forest', but it's done better than most other games today. Not only that, but the smaller areas (things like Zora's Domain, the Ice Cavern, the Bottom of the Well) are perfect for what they are and have so many little features that really add to the impact of the area - for example, the well has small piles of... something in random corners. They don't do anything other than look like something died there, but that is a huge impact for a small dungeon that you aren't supposed to be in for more than 5 minutes, but end up spending an age in because it manages the tension perfectly.

Quote
One last thing I guess is enemy designs and other things related to it.  OoT, lets face it, uses about as stock enemies as you can get.  Granted, its mostly taking from previous Zelda games and trying to adapt them to a now 3D look, but still, you fight stock enemies.  Bats, zombie-like enemies, Skeletons, Lizard Men, you name it.   The enemies are all pretty standard fair, and I'm not entirely convinced they have a unique Zelda-touch to them, cause the game just looks so much different than previous entries (this is not necessarily a bad thing so much as just indicating its not unique.)  When enemies die, the game does try at least some sense of style, in having them burst into flames.  That's a neat effect for the time, and shows a sense of "hey look, cool death animation" so props to that.  Nothing amazing by today's standards, but I suppose all Zelda games had their own little unique death animations, so ist nice they tried to incorporate something like that in OoT.
Agreed for the most part, although there are the odd exceptions - Octorok death animations and enemies like Peahats and Dead Hands stand out.

Quote
Now, I slammed OoT for not being subtle, so what about Okami?  I can't really say its subtle cause the game doesn't really have anything to be subtle about.  I mean, there are no real human-villainous figures like Ganondorf, no consistent Damsel in Distress characters like Zelda, what have you.
Wait, you're penalising Zelda for having a human villain? >.> I don't see how a lack of subtlety in a villain depends on whether or not the villain is human. =/

Quote
The areas you traverse...well, they don't look out of place but outside of the Forest area, which is quite pretty, there's a lot of Grey and Brown in the game.  I mean, yes, a desert should be brown, but its still pretty boring and monotone to look at it.  A deserted, ruined city is similar in that regard, and the dungeons taking places in man-made structures are just so monotone in appearance, between the grey subway, or the dark-blue mansions.  There's an occasional room that looks different here and there, like the fiery rooms, but its not enough.  This makes all the dungeons in the game pretty forgettable, and they meld together.
Hah, reminds me of an old Gamecube shooter, PN03. Past the first area, every room was white. Everything. The game had something like 10-15 areas, and all but one were white. The one that wasn't? Brown, because you were outside. Seriously sounds like a bad case of 'Real is Brown'

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Quote
Now, I slammed OoT for not being subtle, so what about Okami?  I can't really say its subtle cause the game doesn't really have anything to be subtle about.  I mean, there are no real human-villainous figures like Ganondorf, no consistent Damsel in Distress characters like Zelda, what have you.
Wait, you're penalising Zelda for having a human villain? >.> I don't see how a lack of subtlety in a villain depends on whether or not the villain is human. =/

You are misinterpreting this.  He isn't knocking Zelda for anything there.  He is saying that given that Okami's villains are a set of actual demonic beings they don't need to be particularly subtle compared to OoT which has a human villain who needs to show a reason for being insane and evil, which it does try to.  Humans have more depth of personality than pure embodiments of evil.

It isn't a knock to OoT, it is more dismissive of the nature of Okami's villains.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Except the villains in Okami (or, at least, some of them) are shown to have a decent level of intelligence and should, by rights, also need a reason to be insane and evil. Saying that it's a flaw on OoT's part that Ganondorf has no reason (although, consider that Ganondorf = Ganon = giant demon, so if that is the case, OoT's got the same cover) would make it a flaw on Okami's part as well.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Except the villains in Okami (or, at least, some of them) are shown to have a decent level of intelligence and should, by rights, also need a reason to be insane and evil. Saying that it's a flaw on OoT's part that Ganondorf has no reason (although, consider that Ganondorf = Ganon = giant demon, so if that is the case, OoT's got the same cover) would make it a flaw on Okami's part as well.


The fact that they're intelligent is meaningless though.  And the game basically says "they're incarnations of darkness"; its a cheap explanation but it explains that its basically their nature, so no explanation is needed beyond that.

Ganondorf is just "Some guy whose evil."  He doesn't become Ganon UNTIL THE VERY END, remember; even ALttP state that he was initially a normal human thief.  If he wasn't very clearly evil prior-gaining power, you could at least use the "Power made him mad" excuse, but the game suggests he's been this way for quite some time, as I believe the Deku Tree notes about a lingering darkness and such.  There's no explanation, no motivation, no nothing. 

Darksiders actually had a semi-legit explanation here.  Character wanted to kill the opposing side, FAILED MISERABLY cause of his own fuck ups, given the choice of basically absolute power if he defects, and seeing as he was basically going to receive the ultimate punishment, he takes it.  The execution may be a different manner, but at least we can see a clear, defined motivation in the character.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:20:12 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Okay, yeah, the incarnation of darkness part is very very important in all of this. Without that, the argument becomes human vs. non-human.

That said, if Ganon is argued to be the 'Great King of Evil', does that apply? Actually, I think that only happens after the time-jump, so yeah, probably irrelevant.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Now for one of the more subjective parts of the rant!

MUSIC

For this section, I'll be using Youtube links in an attempt to help show what I mean, so we have some examples.  I'll also note that when it comes to Darksiders, I don't remember the music as well there, so you might want to take what I say about the game here with a grain of salt.  But anyway, lets get cracking!

Naturally, Music is by nature driven by tastes, so this may have a lot of controversial opinions.  However, the music in and of themselves isn't necessarily the only thing I'll be discussing, but also how certain songs are used, etc.  There is one nice thing about all 3 games in that the N64 era is about the time where Music Quality stopped really making notable upgrades in instrumentation.  By which I mean, the jump from SNES to N64 is greater than that of N64 to later gens.  This means I can compare the three games easier on a fair basis, as well as OoT NOT having to use that "I'm old!" excuse.  I'm also going to try and avoid saying which I prefer and such, but I can't make promises <_<

I DO promise to, however, not just play random favorites of mine from whatever game.  In fact, I am going out of my way to NOT use my favorite song out of all 3 games in this bunch, on grounds that I will totally fanboy over it and won't be able to avoid bias and-....ahem...anyway...
(if you guys know me, it should be obvious which song I'm referring too.  If you don't...well, keep it that way <_<)

How Music is used well can help make songs better or worse than the song is at its base.  Look at Marvel vs. Capcom 2.  That OST may actually be considered Good Jazz...I wouldn't know, I don't generally care for Jazz much, but...most would agree the music is AWFUL for a fighting game, especially like that.  Its slow, casual jazz music being used for one of the fastest, most intense fighting games ever.  Add in an exaggerated female singer in the background with lyrics you can barely make it, it really leads to a case where "Muting the game may be better."

There are plenty of games that do the music thing very right and have strong base songs; the Wild ARMs and Final Fantasy games are both good examples of games that not only have strong OSTs, but the usage of their songs is good too, so songs stand out more, so I'll just use them as a general example, rather than finding specific ones.

ANYWAY, in this section, I'll be swapping between the games on the fly, rather than doing it in a block format.  I figure comparing counterparts works best, so lets get started!  First off, lets compare one of the least memorable songs from all three games, mostly cause very few people actually HEAR THEM in game, due to when they're played:

TITLE THEMES!

Zelda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tf7gu6hKkc
Okami: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFbKdz60Tg8
Darksiders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYfawj-GNM

Well, as far as setting the tone of OST the rest of the way...OoT, lets be honest, is, for better or worse, not really indicative of the rest of the music in the game.  How?  Its very subdued and relies entirely on that wind instrument effect, which I guess is fitting for OoT, but when you consider most of OoT's Music is loud, prominent, and upbeat, this song really gives you the wrong impression.  Yeah, I understand its trying to fit the animation of Link Riding on a Horse, but that doesn't change the fact that its a different style!  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind...
Okami and Darksiders, though?  Both are pretty strong indicators of their musical style.  Okami has that strong Classical Japanese feel to it, while Darksiders sounds all massive epic percussion, with a melodic, gothic chant in the background.  Both games use songs that follow these styles, so by listening to these title themes, you get a sense of what the OST has to offer, at least in terms of style. 

Now, why are these title themes so forgettable irregardless of being indicative or stand out to the tracks?  Well, lets face it, most don't hear the song beyond the first 5 seconds, and in OoT's case, I believe the game even takes a little bit of a time for the music to kick in, such that you can just skip over it.  This isn't really the music's faults, the game's faults, or anything...its more just one of those quirks of being a title theme that plays nowhere else in the game <_<

So I might as well start with that: Musical style.
If I had to choose a style for Ocarina of Time, it'd be "generic Zelda music."  I don't mean this in a bad way so much as I have no clue what to call it; it doesn't really follow any sort of theme, mostly just puts music that sounds good for the time and what have you.  The songs are distinguished enough that they're memorable, and you'll probably remember where each play...except for maybe Dungeon Themes cause they're generic as hell from my memory, and really just ambiance background noise...though to be honest, all 3 games don't really have memorably dungeon themes, for the most part, so this isn't really something I can hold against OoT; it may be a genre thing in that the only music fitting for these dungeons is generic, dull background noise.

Onto Okami...really, just check the setting section.  I've been through this a lot; if there's anyway Okami is going to sell itself as "THIS IS FEUDAL JAPAN", it'll do it and then some; the music is no exception, and if anything, is possibly one of the more obvious examples of Okami doing that.  Its a clear defined style and the game adheres too it the entire way.  One thing I guess Okami has going for it is that its unique in this regard; sure, games have had singular songs that sound of the same style, but to have an entire OST based heavily off this style?  Not so much.  Closest I can think of offhand are some of the Onimusha games, and even then, their music just sounds like stock Asian rather than really aiming for the classical feel...but that may just be Okami being made the way it was where as Onimusha was just trying to be  "Resident Evil...IN FEUDAL JAPAN!"

Generally, both Okami and OoT do have one thing in common with their music.  They tend to default to a "playful" feel in a lot of their themes, possibly cause by nature, the games are geared towards a wide age of audiences, and it helps keep the mood lighter when the music sounds more "fun" than actually serious.  This isn't to say neither have their strong serious themes in the mix, and not to say there's anything wrong with this "playful" aspect.   

Darksiders...heavy percussion everywhere.  Its basically the "EPIC GOD OF WAR" style, where no matter what's going on, there's heavy drums, organs, etc.  Big battle? EPIC DRUMS.  Plot scene? EPIC DRUMS!  Climbing a wall with no real special aspects happening? EPIC DRUMS!  I'll be blunt here; this style of music kind of grates me, at least as far as basing the entire OST around it.  Why?  Cause there's obviously a case where this style DOES NOT WORK.  DO you want these hard percussion sounds really going when a mundane thing is going on?  No, not really; it just sounds really silly and out of place, to the point where there being no music but the ambient background effects like wind rustling through trees would have been a far better effect.  This is a clear case of a game going "THIS GAME IS EPIC!  FEAR THE EPIC!  DON'T SEE THEN EPIC?  YOU FAIL AT BEING EPIC!"   Yes, there are SOME songs that don't follow this, but generally, they're relegated to singular plot scenes and tend to be forgotten cause you're too focused on the plot scene.  Ok, sure, there have been some songs that are really memorable, that only play once the entire game, but typically, these songs need to KICK ASS, help sell the scene, etc. to really stand out.  A good example?  "You're Not Alone" from Final Fantasy 9.

The Epic feel obviously makes the game seem more adult, so I can see what they were aiming at there, but there's more ways to do that than just BIG PERCUSSION.  Devil May Cry, for example, just did typical Hard Rock style music, which generally works in a lot more areas while not trying to make itself out to be bigger than it is.  That's the problem with the EPIC approach that some of these game's OST's have; they feel like they're trying to compensate for something.  Its almost like "our gameplay and plot isn't good enough to seem TOTALLY AWESOME at a glance, so we'll make the music BIG AND AWESOME to try and give the illusion that its so!"  Whether Darksiders has crappy plot and/or gameplay...that's a different discussion entirely, but generally, the EPIC approach is rarely good as a consistent factor in OSTs, I find, and should be relegated to specific songs.

With style out of the way, lets look at another specific example, this time a more prominent song that you hear a decent amount and thereby, can actually be remembered and be wagered for genuine in game use!  That being PRIMARY OVER-WORLD THEMES!

Zelda: Hyrule Fields
Okami: Shinshu Fields
Darksiders: Light Combat


Right here, we can distinguish a factor of Zelda's OST that I failed to a acknowledge before: it likes simplicity.  The songs don't have quite as much going on as in Okami's music, and lack touches like the vocals Darksiders have.  Now make no mistake; being simple is NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING.  I'm just pointing out that OoT tends to use a simplistic style of music; it might be because of the N64 factor and I could just have been wrong on my points before, but either way, generally, OoT themes have a more simplistic nature than the other songs.

But enough of that, what kind of impression do these three themes give?  Well, OoT certainly starts off strong, gets a bit more subdued a few times out, but generally stays strong.  This is actually pretty effective as it gets that "You're on an adventure!" vibes flowing, and generally works well with the wide area being traversed.  One thing about Hyrule Fields is that its a dynamic song, unlike the other two; it alters based on situation that Link's in, time of day, etc.  I didn't even notice this when I played, but my brother pointed it out; I honestly use to think it was more based on area and such, but no, apparently, it goes into that "intense" mode whenever an enemy is near-bye, it becomes more calm and tranquil during the sun setting, etc.  Its...a neat touch that you wouldn't honestly expect, for all that its easy to miss.    So yeah, Hyrule Fields is certainly a good example of what an Overworld Theme should be in a game like this, and from there, how much you like it depends on tastes.

Though, I do have a minor little complaint; OoT does NOT have the traditional Zelda theme anywhere in the game.  Hyrule Fields has parts that kind of TEASE the notion of being the traditional theme, but it goes off in a clearly different direction.  Just to prove my point, go listen to the Zelda theme from either the original or ALttP, then listen to Hyrule Fields, then listen to Termina Field (from Majora's Mask); you'll notice two of those songs are very clearly the same melody, the other...not so much.

OK, PET PEEVE DISAPPOINTMENT ASIDE, onto the Okami equivalent, Shinshu Fields.  Shinshu Fields starts off in a more typical intro style relative to Hyrule Fields that just starts off strong, but...it works in a different way, as the song overall is more tranquil.  Given Okami wants you to take in the scenery a lot more, where as Zelda wants to focus more on the adventure, it tends to play well with the setting around it.  It still has a sense of "Running through large open fields", but it has more of a "Cute animals playing in the wild with children" feel to it, rather than "ADVENTURE HO!!!" feel.  Its a different approach than Zelda, and I'll be honest, the approach would have failed in most games cause most games just don't really set themselves well in that.  Okami...is not most games though; given you're playing as a FREAKING DOG, and the general graphics don't even try for a sense of realism, suddenly this playful tranquil feel is a lot more fitting.  Maybe I'm jumping the gun saynig the song wouldn't have worked in other games, but I feel OoT went with a more "safer" route for style of Over-world, getting you pumped for the adventure.  Okami's route works nicely for the game, which is all that matters, and it somehow blends tranquility and adventure into one song.

Then Darksiders...I uhh...don't know what to say about it.  You'll note the song is called "Light Combat" which should give you an indication how much they don't care about soft tranquility, or adventure or anything.  Then again, Darksiders lacks a true world map and I had to resort to the big city theme that you tend to return too, but that's nitty gritty.  We can plainly hear that Darksiders is just more like "YOu're walking around...walking...walking...more walking..." and you don't really get much else from the image.  Well, I guess this song would work in a montage  of boring scenes suggesting War was traversing large terrain, but it really doesn't add much.  Darksiders does have combat directly on its over-world, kind of like Zelda, so I guess they were aiming for a "one size fits all" theme with a generic background noise but I'm honestly not really impressed with the feel. 

I guess BATTLE THEMES are next on the list for this?  Well, Darksiders aint getting one cause the game lacks a true battle theme, since everything happens side by side with the journey.  OoT and Okami have actual battle themes of sorts, so we can at least examine those two!

Zelda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV4dEftSf3k
Okami: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIF3Vxqn_oI
Darksiders: N/A (Just listed for completion)


Ok, this is the first time I think OoT kind of drops the ball on music.  The music here is just boring DANGER feel, and doesn't really get going until 30 seconds in...which is sometimes longer than many of the fights in the game, and I didn't even remember the horn effect.  The Horn when it kicks in...does little to add to the song, other than say "Yes, this is a song."  It doesn't really get you pumped or into the fight; the song feels more like "WARNING.  THERE IS AN ENEMY NEAR BYE"  Appropriate for when there's a small bat or something on your ass that can ninja you, but when you have a big skeleton in your face that's impossible to miss, it kind of loses its meaning. 

In Okami's case...first off, ignore that intro; that's not really in the game from my recollection or if it is, it plays just once.  The part that's actually in the game kicks in at about 7 seconds.  There's not much to say about the song; its a battle theme, and fits Okami's fights.  More subdued than what you're use to, but that's Okami's music style kicking in more so than anything else.  I'll admit the song doesn't really work well out of context, but it serves its purpose well in context.  If Okami were like OoT or Darksiders, the song would not really work though; the reason it works is cause Okami thinks its an RPG in this regard, and isolates battles from the dungeons, maps, etc.  So having a song that completely interrupts and is totally different than where you are is appropriate here.  OoT, they could not afford this kind of song, I suppose, as it'd be weird going from "Background dungeon theme...OH CRAP BIG BATTLE" just cause a monster appeared, but that doesn't excuse the dullness of the above song.

Darksiders...like I said before, it doesn't have a battle theme for individual generic enemies, just keeps whatever music is playing.  That'd have worked better if...well...see what I said about the overworld really.  So I guess the next song we'll discuss is DUNGEON THEMES!

...except I have no clue how to find Dungeon themes for Darksiders or Okami, cause I don't remember the names of those dungeons well, and honestly, none of the dungeon themes really stand out in these games, so we'll just say "background noise of ambiance" and move on...I think I covered this already earlier in fact...

So obviously, at the end of each dungeon, we have a boss, so I guess Boss Themes are good!

Zelda: Volvagia's Theme
Okami: Demon Lord Ninetails
Darksiders: Battle With Griever

Ok, lets start off by saying that OoT is the oddball out here cause it has a stock boss theme for the most part, while the other two games have unique themes that play for each of their bosses.  This isn't really a flaw of OoT so much as showing a shifting in standards.  After all, RPGs tend to have one primary boss theme, and no one complains there.  Granted, in RPGs, there's often a lot more bosses than these games, so its more fitting but I'm willing to submit that's just OoT being made when the idea of "Character Specific Boss Themes" across the board was not a conceived notion.  To OoT's credit, it DOES have a mini-boss theme, and to pretend Volvagia is actually important, gives him his own theme!  I chose Volvagia's theme, mind you, just so we have a more fair comparison since the other games are dealing with songs also trying to match one specific fight (though generally speaking, the style of music is the same so it shouldn't change too much.)

Tangent aside, onto actually assessing the songs!

Zelda hits you with an intense battle theme that...honestly, is still generic.  Yeah, OoT to be honest didn't do its standard battle themes too well; if there's a weak point in its OST, it'd be that.  I guess it works in context of the game, but the question is, does it really add much to the fight?  One of my issues with the direction OoT music took in fights is that it feels too much like "THERE'S A BIG THREAT LOOMING!" for its music, a style of music I'm not fond of for battles.  I'm much more in preference of the Upbeat, Fast Paced battle theme that more gives the sense of "A big fight is underway!"  OoT fails to deliver here for these songs.   Part of the problem with Zelda music is also it gives you too much of a "HURRY HURRY!" feeling, when often the fights are approached in a more "Wait for opening and strike" manner; its a rather clashing of musical style with the nature of the battle.  Basically, what I'm getting at is OoT Boss Themes would have worked better as "ESCAPE NOW!" style themes rather than battle themes.

So what of Okami?  Well, like I said, Okami does the whole setting thing really well, and part of selling a fight well is getting the music right, and the boss themes all fit the boss in question.  I should note I wanted to use Yamato No Orochi here originally, but that felt a bit too thematic given the nature of the fight (as in, while fitting really well, kind of needs the context to understand why), so I went with Ninetails instead, whose theme feels more universally applicable in that sense.  Now yes, this is a song used for only one fight, but I do feel it'd fit most boss fights in Okami, since it is fast paced, and captures the "Intense Fight against a large monster", while not sounding TOO menacing to the point of "THERE IS A BIG SCARY MONSTER, IT IS SCARY, BE SCARED!"  Basically, it sets the boss up for sounding like a major opponent, but doesn't make the boss sound like its anything you can't handle.  It could be better, but I feel the general style of Okami's music limits what can actually be done in this regard, and they very much wanted to stay within that style, so it does a decent enough job considering that.

Darksiders...well, first off, failure number is how apparently half the bosses in the game don't even HAVE any music.  The song I found for the Griever is one of the generic "End Dungeon" bosses and the song doesn't fit him in any sort of special way, makes you wonder why they didn't just apply it to EVERY Boss in the game without it?  Anyway, for once, the style of music actually kind of works here; the issue is, of course, that since all Darksiders music sounds the same, it kind of ruins the impact, and you tend to forget about the moments where the music DOES fit, since it all blends together.  IN this instance the music actually sounds like you're fighting a big monster of sorts, and...you're fighting a big monster!  Now, yes, I did state I am not a fan of that style of boss music, but Darksiders does something right that Zelda doesn't in this case, and that's the pacing used.  Darksider's slower, more subdued pace helps build up some power in the theme, to actually fit the boss, so it doesn't give you this sense of "HURRY!", more just "There's a looming threat, FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE!" type feel if that makes sense.  Basically, I don't see the music being better used in other areas in the game, so it works here; OoT, as I noted, I felt those boss themes may be better served as HURRY style themes.


At this point...I'm not sure what angle to take with music.  I...umm...CHARACTER THEMES!!!

Zelda: Saria's Song
Okami: Issun's Theme
Darksiders: Vulgrim Theme

...I have not much to say here.  The character themes generally fit the character.  In these examples, Saria's theme is upbeat, cheerful, and has a youthful feel to it.  Issun's theme is similar, only with more of a "little prankster" type connotation for lack of a better description, a factor fitting Issun.  Vulgrim's theme just has a sense of buying something from a shady shop, and seeing as he's a demonic merchant who deals with souls, I'd say that fits.

And here, I have no clue what direct to take, so GENERAL DISCUSSION ABOUT EACH GAME WITH LINKS!!!
Generally speaking, OoT does a good job in keeping its music memorable throughout.  It has a nice range of music for its "towns" ranging from the placid and playful Kokiri Forest to that uniquely styled (I say that cause I don't want to call it the wrong style and get shot for it) Gerudo Valley, the songs all stand out as memorable.  Though, I did note that one problem here is the game's refusal to want to change music to fit the setting at that moment; Goron City is a good example of that, as I illustrated earlier, but Zora's Domain is no better in that regard.  Both songs do well when the villages are in a relatively positive state, but when they're in their "screwed" state, they really should have had another song there; just cause its Zora's Domain doesn't mean we need that pleasant Underwater sounding theme if the entire place is frozen and the Zoras are nowhere to be found!  Maintain the melody if you will, but make a darker version of it or something.

Other random things...well, Temple of Time sounds like an actual temple.  No, not the Temples OoT has with monsters and creatures and elemental shenanigans, but a place of an actual sacred area.  The melodic choir (which I can't tell if its genuine chanting or a synthed effect...) adds to the fact that "yes, its a temple."  I just wish they found ways to use the song more, especially considering the name of the game.  I guess the last thing I'll note from OoT is all the teleportation songs, which are worth a nod cause they all have a unique style fitting of each area you go to, and apparently they grant Link the power to play multiple instruments using nothing but an Ocarina when he plays specific notes.  I don't know what that has to do with music usage, but it sure is fun as hell to bring up!


So...onto Okami...
Well, Okami generally has a larger range of music, if staying to one style (where as OoT tended to spread out and hit multiple styles), so somehow, we can go from the mysterious, somewhat divinely sounding Sakuya's Theme, givnig us the impression of a benevolent spirit who wants to help, but can't, to the simple playful sounds of Cherry Blossom Storm, DESPITE being the same melody.
This is actually one thing OoT was lacking; variations of the same melody being used within the game.  I mean, the game's theme is effectively Zelda's Theme but we only get one real variation of the song until the very end, and its still the exact same style.  Okami, that melody IS the game's theme as well, but as we see it has great diversity in its melody.  To be honset, I've always felt that a game's main theme should have its melody used throughout in a variety of fashions.  Look at FF7, for example, and how many times its "Main Theme" is used throughout, ranging from the slow paced Over-world version to the fast paced, action-y variation used in the Tiny Bronco.   It allows the song to actually be used throughout in multiple fashions and fully represent the game.  Okami's main melody does that, OoT's...is mostly just such a well known theme that gets shoved down your throat cause you play the song "Zelda's Lullaby" throughout but when you listen to it, does it really represent the game as a whole, or just the character in question?

OK, away from that totally subjective tangent that I'll probably get shot on, BACK TO OKAMI MUSIC.  Branching away from that melody, Okami also manages to completely go away from its generally calm, light hearted self, and deal with some actual intense, fast paced music for sequences.  Giving Kushinada a Ride was the song that really stood out to me in this regard, cause while still keeping true to Okami's Classical Japanese Style, it just sounds so much different than everything else in the game, and just sells the "We must hurry!" sequences well; this shows the diversity of Okami's sound track well, when you place it alongside all the other light-hearted songs...well, ok, the Battle Themes aren't exactly light hearted but SHUT UP.

Then we have Darksiders which...umm...er...yeah, again, I struggle to come up with much from this game, cause of the usual "EVERYTHING SOUNDS THE SAME."  The Griever's theme is just a happy accident cause it was bound to fit ONE area eventually!   I guess one song that sounds different is Uriel's Theme which sounds like stock "this is a soft sounding song" in a game with big epic drums, and tries to build up to drama...only doesn't really go anywhere.  I guess Flight over Ruined Eden is another song that actually realizes "yes, there are moments that you don't need to rely on MASSIVE PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS", and...is actually kind of nice sounding all things considered.  Other than that?  I think here I'll just show a few songs to further establish that "yes, all Darksiders music does the same thing."

Prison Break
Empowered
In Prophecy

Yeah, you can see Darksiders likes either its melodic chanting, or massive percussion, if not both, in most of its songs.  Even the "DOOR OPEN!" theme uses heavy organs (OoT using the classic Zelda "Door Open!" fanfare, and Okami just going with a generic Japanese sounding instrument that's forgettable <_<)

Ok, I'll give Flight Path credit for trying the EPIC!!! feel in a different manner, going for more along the lines of just fast paced string instruments and all that, which...yeah, I'm just kind of doing this as I listen to the music again, but god damn is this a forgettable soundtrack and you can see why!


So...yeah, I think its time I wrap this up...

OoT does a generally good job with its music and its usage.  IT has a lot of memorable and I guess iconic music from it for a reason...well, part of that reason is "Its OoT, THIS GAME MUST BE HYPED IN EVERY REGARD!" but I'm trying to ignore the idiotic fanboy perception of it.  There are some futz ups, like refusal of using the same melody in multiple songs which leads to awkward scenarios like "NICE ZORA CITY...except its abandoned and covered in Ice...BUT THE MUSIC IS PRETTY DESPITE THIS!"   Overall, it does its job well enough, and shows a decent range in styles.

Okami, as I said, has one real style and keeps to it rather religiously, regardless of the song, never selling out for "OMG WE MUST HAVE THIS KIND OF SONG!"  Yet, despite this, it shows a decently large amount of range in how its music applied.  Given Music can really help a setting, and Setting is one of the points no one would dare say Okami did poorly, its a pretty safe bet to say Okami got its music done rather well.

Darksiders...umm...THE PERCUSSION!  WHY IS THERE SO MANY DRUMS!?  WHY DO I FEEL LIKE I WANT TO BE EPIC BUT CAN'T BE!?!?


...I suppose its only fitting I end a Music evaluation post with links to the Ending Credits music of all 3 games, huh?  Fine, be that way BUT DON'T EXPECT AN EVALUATION!!!

Ocarina of Time "End Credits": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCEYXAy897o
Okami's "Reset": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpuGNH75pUc
Darksiders "End Credits": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AJCJmtGnlM
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:21:04 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
And again, I have a very minor problem with your OoT analysis. Zora's Domain, when frozen, has this nice kinda... harpsichord? Probably the wrong instrument. Whatever. This nice kinda glassy/icy/echo-ey effect in the background - it's the same song, but just a slight hollow echo over it makes it absolutely perfect for the icy environment - not that this is perfect from a design standpoint; it makes the ice seem like a beautiful environment when it's actually genocide in context, but the point is that the OST does change for the atmosphere and is fitting to what's happening, at least.

Also can't necessarily agree on the temples being dull and generic - Water Temple's music is ARGH OH GOD SO WEIRD. Love it and hate it at the same time. Works pretty much perfectly for the Water Temple and actually stands out (in my mind, at least >.>)

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
First off, just stating that no, this is NOT a rant update, just felt I should say something since its been some time since I DID update...

This week has been hectic, hence the delays on the update (Passover, lots of random writing assignments, work being a whore, Hatbot is a whore, etc.), but just noting I have NOT given up on the rant, and update will come in due time!  I just need the energy and inspiration to work on the next part.

Was originally thinking of doing Gameplay, but probably gonna do Plot and Plot Progression, since it segues better from plot and I've been dealing with a plot of plot-centric aspects.  If someone has a better recommendation, by all means, speak up!
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
PLOT

Before you say "How can you just compare plot so easily", this isn't just about plot, but about the general progression of plot, how well its shown, etc.  If you question this again, you will be hit by a rhino.

Anyway, I'll be honest here: none of these games have stellar plot.  Compared to most jRPGs, they fall short, and seeing as jRPGs are often cliche ridden, recycled plotlines that are often boring outside of the rare Suikoden 5 that tries to say "THERE'S STILL HOPE IN THE GENRE!"  by actually having good plot, this is not a good thing.  Why did I say all that?  Just to establish the point that I am NOT hyping jRPG plot, but these games definitely have aspects in common with RPGs such as NPC interaction for example, and they should probably be compared likewise with RPGs for plot.  So just so we're clear, I do not think highly of any of these game's plots, and I am mostly comparing them to each other here; so if I seem to be hyping a game, its mostly compared to the other two.  Also, I do NOT mean to say these plots are UN-SALVAGEABLE BAD, just they aren't particularly hype worthy.

With that in mind...first off, OoT!

The game starts off with quite simple introduction of Navi and umm...ok, its off to a bad start RIGHT THERE.  There really is no hope for the story, so I'll just quit talking about the game now!

...
.....
.......
That's not going to work, is it?  Ok, jokes aside, refer to my intro nonsense.  As soon as the filler first dungeon that exists as mostly a tutorial is done, the game basically says "Evil is afoot" Soon after, we learn the evil guy is named Ganondorf from the princess who is apparently SPESHUL for reasons the game doesn't exactly elaborate (for now) and then you're told to go find two other gems, to open some random door for reasons the game isn't quite clear on.

...so its typical Zelda plot from the start, though, seeing as ALttP did the EXACT SAME THING BEFORE and better, I think it stands out.  See, in ALttP, you actually had an intro of storming a castle, saving the Princess, then learning you need to get this super awesome sword to kill the bad guy, and to do so, get 3 pendants.  Here, you already have one of the three, gained from a tree that died on the spot that should be an emotional scene, except we only JUST met the guy so its over before you have a chance to care, then you meet the same Princess (...kind of...) except in a completely unheoric fashion, and you're told what to do.  To do a bit of a gameplay segue for a moment, I will also note to meet said princess, you must do the old "Avoid being caught by guards that you could probably beat the stuffing out of if you actually fought them!" stealth missions that are a waste of time, where as ALttP, it mostly just had a simple dungeon.

So you basically do a few misadventures to try and pretend there's a story getting these objects...yeah, I said "Try and Pretend" cause there really isn't a story.  What's happening to the Gorons has almost nothing to do with the Kokiri stuff early game, and the Zoras sure as hell don't have anything to do with people outside of their domain.  The only linkage is "Ganondorf is doing bad things, he is bad."  And honestly, I can't even remember if he did anything bad to the Zoras, as I think the "crisis" was "Ruto is incompetent, and got eaten by a huge fish after she dropped her family keepsake (which happens to be one of the macguffins you're looking for) but its been a while.  I guess you could argue that "its the child arc, its suppose to be light hearted" and that the point is just showing how Link is establishing bonds with random characters for later in the game, but would it hurt for the game to establish a PURPOSE behind these macguffins?

So you get them, then suddenly BIG EPIC EVIL GUY APPEARS chasing the Princess, he owns Link effortlessly, then decides to not kill him.  Ok, so a kid isn't threatening, that's fair, but then he goes "Xanatos Gambit!" on you, which makes me question why he didn't just kill Link on the spot when the door opens, then go "VICTORY IS MINE!"  I mean, he shows up RIGHT AS YOU PULL THE SWORD; if he really was on top of things, you'd think he'd kill any potential threats there and then.  This IS a super awesome Master Sword we're talking about and...ok, really this entire complaint is meaningless, and not really serving a point; this is just one of those things you take for granted, but come on, I can have fun mocking <_<;

Then the game pulls the 7 year Time Jump, cause Link isn't old enough to use the Master Sword.  During this time, Ganondorf takes over the world.  Now, again, this sounds like a neat schtick of "villain wins" except, again, FF6 did it first and better.  When Kefka won and blew up the world, your heroes were right there, and failed to stop him, and it establishes what every character was doing during that time.  OoT just pulls magic bullshit and we sort of have to piece things together, which leads to questions like "Wait, why did the Sages have Link sealed off for 7 years rather than, I dunno, have him train with the Master Sword to become an even stronger warrior?"  The game is also poor at establishing when Ganondorf took over; did it he do it immediately, or did it take him time?  And for how long?  We just know it happened within 7 years, and there's enough time for people of Hyrule Castle Town to have established lives in Kakariko, but then the crises in Zora's Domain and Death Mountain both suggest its only happened recently, and...yeah, game just kind of fridge logic'd EVERYTHING there.

It also introduces the Light Sage, who becomes COMPLETELY POINTLESS after this scene, and is basically there so you have one less macguffin to collect.  So apparently our next goal is...to find 5 more Macguffins.  Again, the ALttPness kicks in, and the parallels are just obvious, though honestly, I'll save that for a later section.  So now you have an excuse to travel around the world AGAIN, and the game seems like its going to gain a coherent plot, right?

...not really, its the same thing as before, just with new dungeons, and they all end in "you saved the day, take this object cause I'm your friend!"  At least there's a definitive goal this part of the game, which is "break down the barrier so you can kick the crap out of Ganondorf."  Its not an intriguing one, but its enough such that there feels like an actual purpose. 

The adult arc was obviously intended to be darker and more stark compared to the relatively playful child arc, but the issue is, OoT doesn't really do the writing thing well to get the point across; it has a few decent examples of setting (Hyrule Castle Town, Kakariko Village, etc.) to get the point across that things are going to hell, but when you meet characters, the scenes are basically "Oh, hi Link, long time no see! I'm off to save my companions!" then you don't see them again until you get the medallion and its all "Yep, I'm a Sage, here's this medallion!"  And that's on a GOOD day.  There are characters like Impa who don't even appear until the Medallion after her initial introduction, which makes you question how Link formed a "bond" with her or something.

Now, I do approve of the whole "bonds made as children end up helping you as an adult!" thing for a cute little twist or something, but OoT just kind of really fails at making this beyond painting who the sages are early.  You do not really grow attached to any of these characters really, so it ends up being just a "Oh hey, I remember you!" and the only time its actually neat is Ruto, seeing as Darunia, Naburu, and Impa are all adults, and Saria doesn't grow up.  Speaking of Saria, why was she the only one who went to the temple again?  Game didn't exactly establish what made her special beyond "Link's Friend" and there's really no reason she'd know Link was the HERO and he needs her support.  I don't think there's even a simple notification aspect like "Saria seems to have a special gift!" or "Saria's a lucky girl; she was chosen to be the Maiden of the Deku Tree!" or something.  There's NOTHING special about her.  Darunia and Ruto are both leaders of their clans (well, Ruto's merely a princess, but hush), as is Naburu, and Naburu was kidnapped ANYWAY, so she was kind of in a "didn't have a choice", and Impa...well, Impa has no plot, so screw her.

ONce you get all the Macguffins, what's the game do?  Finally explain what the point of everything was.  Well, gee, some hints before hand would have been nice!  Then Shiek goes "By the way, you have the Triforce of Courage, Ganondorf has Power, and I have Wisdom...oh yeah, I'm also a princess!"   You know, Shiek really being Zelda would have been better if Shiek was at all masculine in anyway shape and form like the game tries to pretend he was (seriously, I still think of Shiek as a female, and it wasn't til they used a male pronoun in the game that I went "Wait...Shiek's suppose to be a GUY!?"), but whatever, what really ticks me off about this scene is what I said before in Zelda's entry:

As Shiek, she's quite capable of evading Ganondorf, and being her own strong, independent person, and furthermore, she has the Triforce of Wisdom, so she should be really smart and such.  Yet, somehow, the instant she reveals herself, she degrades to Damsel in Distress within a few lines of dialog, and is totally shocked that Ganondorf went after her even though she KNEW what he was looking for.  This is really failure of writing; at least have Zelda say something at the end of the game like "Link, I had myself kidnapped on purpose; I knew he'd lower his barrier to lure you in to rescue me, cause he wants all three Triforces!  It was a gamble, but it was the only way!"  At least that shows Zelda was trying a gutsy plan, but no, it just goes "ZELDA IS A DAMSEL IN DISTRESS SAVE HER!"

For the rest of the game...well, I'll save that for its own section, but either way, OoT's plot is...just sort of not there.  Its run around the world collecting macguffins for a vague reason, then something happens.  See, again, ALttP did the same thing, but better, but again, I'll get to those strict comparisons later.


So next we have Okami.  Okami starts off with a long boring exposition banter about Orochi, Shiranui, etc.  We fail to care, like I said, Okami's intro, while a necessary evil, is boring as shit.  The first dungeon does little to raise interest value too, outside of Issun's attitude.  The game really lacks any sort of direction when it gets started, truth be told.  The one thing we do know is that the world is being cursed, Amaterasu needs to purify it, and she needs to seek out of the 13 Celestial Brush Strokes (which the game is nice enough hand you a few off the bat) if she wishes to restore her full power.  So...like Zelda, the game starts off us off with the appropriately named "Zelda's Axiom" only here its "Find Brush Strokes, recover strength!"

But...Okami does something a little different, and it helps the plot out as a result.  The Brush Strokes are NEVER the primary goal; they're more something you're grabbing on the side, since they're helpful for Amaterasu.  It ends up being just a gameplay/plot integration factor.  Okami, in fact, does not follow the Zelda style plot much at all for "FIND THE RARE ITEMS TO SAVE THE WORLD!" due to the Celestial Brush Techniques being the only aspect like that.  Instead, Okami just gives each section of the game its own short term goal, which sometimes builds off the previous section, and sometimes its just kind of self contained.  Now, what is there in Okami is not really all that good, but at least the game proves you can do this style of game WITHOUT resorting on to "FIND ALL THESE ARTIFACTS!"  and works more like a jRPG as a result.  There's stuff happening, solve the crisis, and move on.

Its Dragon Quest like in that regard, except there's actual writing, so its much better, but then Dragon Quest is not exactly very good at this stuff anyway, so that's saying almost nothing.  Okami's issue is that it takes a while for you to finally get something that actually feels relevant.  For the first good portion of the game, you are really just running around the world doing jack all, slowly restoring things, but you have no real clue what the meaning of this is, and no real end in sight.  The first boss you fight, the Spider Queen, pretty much comes at the end of a stock dungeon that's just there cause "So...we could use a dungeon here, couldn't we?"  No, its not until you get to the second real village, with Princess Fuse and her Sentai Dogs that something resembling a plot appears.  Now we finally learn of our first big demon (Crimson Helm) and have an established temporary goal to kick his ass!  Its not going to last very long, so the game does whatever it can to draw this section out longer.  Oh yeah, before this, we meet Waka whose being randomly cryptic; his scenes are amusing, but its hard to really say he adds to the plot this early when you aren't really sure what the hell is going on.  At least in OoT, you knew you were searching for random objects; why?  Cause a princess told you too, YOU DON'T QUESTION THESE THINGS!  Okami's early game doesn't really have that much; its just "restore the world.  No, we don't know how you're going to do it; something about those giant roots.  JUST DO IT ANYWAY"

After Crimson Helm, the game FINALLY does something that feels significant in any sort of long term basis.  It finally establishes that Orochi is actually back, making the game's intro actually serve a meaning, and finally an explanation for all the stuff that's been happening.  With Orochi, the game finally seems to have a sense of direction and now things seem meaningful.  Of course, he appears really early, and you only have half your spells, so you know either he's not the final boss, or if he is, you aren't killing him here (Its naturally the former.)  The Orochi section is well handled, truth be told, if short, and the exact kind of scene OoT is completely lacking in.  Its a good sequence of events, that feels suitably epic, action packed, and even develops one of the characters.  OoT's equivalent is...basically watching Ganondorf instant gimp Link, laugh, and ride off.  No, Okami actually tosses a legit villain at you, with plot, you fight him, and the game even has the gall to pretend the world is saved!

...then the intro's narrator kicks in again, and we learn "no wait, there's evil else in the world UNLEASHED CAUSE OF OROCHI!"  Next is the Sei-an arc.  Now, unlike the previous stuff which was all self contained quests, Sei-An actually feels like a string of events linked together.  You restore the area, but wait, the City is still cursed, and you don't know why!  At the same time, game suggests that the queen would be a useful person to speak too, but you can't get to her cause the curse is making people paranoid etc.  You save the country by going through another dungeon, then talk to the Queen, the gives you a sense of what's going on.  Then a few filler events ultimately leading to the twist of "BUSTY BABE IS REALLY THE NINETAIL FOX!"  and well, now we're onto our second villain...who has only half the plot of Orochi if that.  Now granted, the aspect with the Ninetail fox was meant to be a behind the scenes evil guy, so it having screen time would defeat the purpose, and its really only tossed in cause from my understanding, Yamato No Orochi was one of the biggest bad-asses in Japanese Mythology, and the Ninetail Fox is one of the few that could be considered similarly powerful.  Oh yeah, during that time, you meet Otohime, the Dragon Queen, and learn how they're going down and...well, ok, while I appreciate Okami is trying to give us a sense of plot, its not really doing it for me here.  Its better than the early game where you just run around doing random tasks, as here you feel like you're accomplishing something, but that doesn't make it good.

With the Ninetail Fox defeated, and going through a SECOND "Fake Final Dungeon", the game makes it clear you're getting close to the end.  Why?  Cause Issun reminded you that you found 12 of the 13 Celestial Brush Strokes!  Now while you are not looking them as your primary concern, the game does show a sense of self awareness that they're basically a checklist for how far you are into the game.  So the next section clearly can't be that long!

And well, its not, but its sure fillery.  We learn of the emo that is Oki, get some shit with the AWESOME SWORD he has, and how he can't use it properly cause he's using for the wrong reasons, get sent back in time to fight Orochi again cause hey, Orochi was an awesome fight!  It also shows us a bit of backstory and tells us who some of these characters like Nagi actually were (and see Nagi, while notably more serious than his descendant, is still a bit of a goof ball.)  Actually, this section was a nice touch to setting cause in Kamiki Village in Modern times, everyone is all "Aww, what a cute white doggie!"  In the past Kamiki Village, its all "HELP! SHIRANUI IS HERE!" and "GET AWAY VILE BEAST! YOU WILL NOT HAVE MY DAUGHTER!" Oh yeah, forgot to say, before being sent in the past, the game talks about EVIL OWLS and well, that's just the game's way of saying "yes, the Boss of this arc of the game are those owls."

The Wep'keer part of the game is stylish, I will give it that much, but it also feels completely fillery.    I mean, yeah, seeing Shiranui appear, then seeing her appear in modern times and fight alongside Amaterasu, having the team combat dynamic against the owls, a chance to fight Orochi again who was one of the more creative, most involved fights in a game like this I've ever seen...its all pretty neat.  Yet in the end, you're still trying to figure out WHY you're doing this.  The only thing that comes to mind is "Trying to stop those owls cause they're creating a snow storm."  Game does talk about the Day of Darkness, which is foreshadowing the final boss, and all that, but really, the game doesn't get into all the genuine plot and details until its LAST REAL DUNGEON, which it kind of overwhelms you with a bunch of new factors, finally establishes Waka's character, and basically finally we learn just why everything happened, but at this point, its hard to care, cause you just want to fight the final boss!

This is the fundamental failure with having plot that doesn't explain itself until the very end.  By late in the game, you kind of just want to see what things are GOING to happen, not learn about stuff from the past; back-story should be built up throughout the game, by the last section of the game, all the big backstory reveals should be made, and now its about dealing with the shit that's going to transpire.  Basically, late game stuff should be focusing on the "How to stop this!?" and not the "How did this all come to be?"  Plot twists are fine, but they shouldn't be relegated to all end game stuff just for melodrama, for all that Waka's was well handled, mostly cause the nature of his character demands holding off until the very end.


So...for once, Okami does not actually kick ass in something.  It does get points for keeping away from the Zelda's axiom, but throughout the game, there's a lot of "Ok, so what's the purpose of this?"  It focuses a little too much on these temporary plot arcs, and there's no over-arching story other than "Save the world" and then there's the issue of not knowing WHAT you're saving the world from.  Sure, you think its Orochi at first, but he dies half way in, and its obvious he's NOT the big bad,  so you kind of go back to square one.


So what does Darksiders do will all this?  Well, after a stylish entrance, the game establishes War's role in the story is that he's sent down to fix problems, because he's being held accountable for things, and he wants to find the truth.  The game has something Okami and OoT does not, and that's actual ground work for a story.  The game's intro establishes there a lot of shit going down and something is wrong, and War's general purpose is to basically put all the puzzle pieces together...in as violent a way as humanly possible of course.  The game establishes some fundamental ideas...basically, Demons = Evil Douches sans a few like Vulgrim who don't give a shit and just want to live their lives, Angels = Self Righteous Pricks, kill both if they are at all obstacles.

So how do you go about doing this?  Well, game just tells you "Find Samael first, he'll tell you what to do!"  Ok, fair enough, having someone who actually knows what's up helps.  Free him, and what does he tell you to do?

"Get the hearts of the 4 Chosen ones by the Destroyer, and you will be able to enter the Tower where the Destroyer lives!"

...excuse me, what was that again?  Get the 4 Hearts of a bunch of super powered demons?  Isn't that just another way of saying "Go through 4 dungeons, kill 4 bosses, and get 4 macguffins"?  So basically...the EXACT SAME PLOT ADVANCEMENT STYLE AS EVERY ZELDA GAME EVER?  Well, at least we have a sense of how much progress we're making in the game.   To credit Darksiders though, the game establishes why you need these objects, and it also tends to explain more of the plot as you do things.  As you give hearts to Samael, you either learn about the game from stuff on the way to the boss, or from Samael himself, such that by the time you get the fourth heart, most of the game is established, and the things you do not know are things it makes sense for these characters to not know, such as anything that happened in "The White City" cause that's where Angels live.  Darksiders has direction, basically; sure, using the Zelda's Axiom is stupid and dull, but it comes off as more of a "how do we come up with an excuse to pad this game out further?" uses that as a vehicle for actual gameplay and tosses plot in between.  Contrast this to OoT where its just "Medallion are good.  Go get them to save the world!" 

Once you get all the hearts, you're...already 80% of the way through the game.  No, really, you are; the game has one more real dungeon, and then some filler, and the game is over.  Like I said, it tends to intermingle plot scenes throughout, and helps give you a sense of an actual story, contrast to OoT just being an ADVENTURE, or Okami's "You're doing random tasks helping people out!", though Okami at very least hid its weak plot with cute writing and stylish scenes, so you tend to not notice, something OoT does not do.  Darksiders' continues to reveal its plot gradually as the game goes on, so you have a full sense of what's going on and at the end, things come together.  Contrast this to Okami where it kind of bombards you with information right at the end of the game, and you basically go "oh, so THAT'S what this game was all about"; no, Darksiders you know what its about, the game is just slowly giving you answers to those questions, which is how it SHOULD be.

Now, Darksiders' plot has issues in that its not very interesting, and downright boring at times...and its writing could be better, but from the perspective of actual direction and having a sense of purpose, it actually works.  It uses the Zelda's Axiom, but its more of a cheap attempt to say "here's an excuse for 4 dungeons" rather than making its plot rely on it; the macguffins are just tools you get to advance the plot, not the purpose of the plot itself.  Its interesting how I praised Okami for sidestepping the Zelda's Axiom by making the Brush Techniques NOT the main goal of your journey, but more something you collect along the way, but Darksiders which used the Axiom in the most classic of fashions somehow ends up doing the plot direction better.  I guess the general point is that how you go about things doesn't matter, just so long as you go about them.  Darksiders sets up exactly what it wants in the plot, and makes it clear you know what the story is about, while not answering all your questions immediately.  Okami sort of struggles to tell you a full story; it comes off as more "The Adventures of Amaterasu and Issun! See how they vanquish the forces of evil!".  Granted, a lot of TV Shows are structured like Okami, where the first 20 episodes or something are stand alone adventures, then the last bunch are a bit sequence of related events that lead to a climactic showdown or something, so I suppose Okami could just be taking that perspective...

Thing is, it works better in a TV Show cause you only deal with these half hour at a time, and episodes feel separated by nature.  Okami is one game, so it feels like things should be connected.  Darksiders doesn't have this problem of connectivity, since everything feels related.

And yet, OoT manages to just fail as it doesn't really give you a purpose beyond "Get items, kill bad guy."  The game doesn't really reveal any plot details other than "shit is going down, your actions will help remove the shit!"   Now yes, OoT is an older game with cart limitations and all that, but it still came out after games that have "highly regarded plots" were made, so this excuse cannot go so far, especially since ALttP generally handled things better despite having limited dialog itself.

So while all 3 plots aren't very good, Darksiders ultimately wins in this category only because it had actual direction and knew what it wanted, and the player at least understands what their general purpose is.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:24:12 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Having not played 2/3s of the games you've been reviewing for the past month now, I found the Plot section the nicest read, and you perhaps should have done this section earlier. When you post this monster review up on the main site, I would bump Plot up to the second or third part of the article.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Well, I'm mostly doing it section by section to keep thoughts consistent about each game; if I do post it on the main site, smoe editting would be done.  PLot should happen earlier, I agree, but I wanted to take everything into perspective that helps build plot and style, and such and get that out of the way, so I can isolate plot in and of itself.  If I had jumped to plot immediately, I'd haev been taking too much stuff like "OKAMI'S SETTING FOR GODLIKE!" and such into account, giving it an unfair advantage.  Doing it the order I did, for the purposes of sorting out thoughts, allowed me to isolate things better.

BUt yeah, I agree, for a finalized version, the order will change, and Plot should be bumped up; I'm mostly posting things as its easier for me to think about it and sort my thoughts out.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
EDIT: This post is useless, and should be ignored entirely cause it sucked.  Everything that was written here is found in later, revised sections and therefor, better to just cut it entirely.  I apologize for the...whatever.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 04:06:41 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
I'm no fan of OoT, but it seems like you're really biased against it. I mean, I remember that some of the cool things you could do with the bow-targetting and boomerang-targetting such that you could attack enemies in far-off parts of the dungeons that you couldn't even reach yet were just generally neat and the dungeon design lent itself to exploration (back when OoT graphics were exciting and worth exploring). There were probably other things that OoT did decently that you're not really giving it credit for. As bland as the game is, simplicity in tool use and the abusability of fairies and such aren't bad design decisions.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Everything you mentioned though barely ever comes up from my recollection.  Sniping at enemies is such a minor feature and often the enemy respawns by the time you get there by the nature of the game, and half the enemies you can snipe at are things you'd be shooting at anyway; you're going "its neat" but what does it really add.  Its not really a major factor of the game and adds little.

And...while I didn't mention it in the rant, I forgot to do so...

OoT sort of dropped the ball on Tools in a different way: It reused a bunch.  Bow and Arrow is really just a combination of Sling Shot w/ some flammable properties (this was about the most interesting thing they did with the bow, mind you)...so in a sense, the game is making you collect the exact same item twice.  The Boomerang you get for one dungeon and then you basically never use it again; there's no real excuse for "Collect item...now never use it again!" in a game like this.   I don't seem to recall the megaton hammer seeing much use outside of the Volcano, and the fact that Zelda can be sequence broken to hell generally suggests my memory is true (I know you can go to the Water temple before the Fire Temple with no negative repercussion)

Again, part of the thing about OoT gameplay is the nuances add little to the game, and its less simplicity more "Stops bothering and doesn't apply any creativity."   How often do you really want to light those torches using Deku Sticks or Bows?  How often are you going to shoot eyeball in the faces to open doors?M  How often do you want to bomb random shit in hopes to find a new passage?  There's no excuse for just re-using the exact same gimmick over and over again, and when you can't think of any sort of interesting extension beyond that, to just go "Screw it, lets forget the Tool isn't there!"

and then there's the fact that there's a bunch of optional stuff that...has no real applications.  Now, optional stuff shouldn't be required of course, but stuff like Din's Fire or Ice Arrows should have some sort of reason to care about them.  To give you a parallel, go look at the optional stuff in ALttP.  While never necessary, its hard to deny that stuff like the Medallion of Bombos or the Ice Rod were handy little items to have availabe; I don't get that sense with OoT's optional stuff, cause the game is so direct about approach sometimes, it does little to promote creative ideas (at least intended ones.  Speed Runs tend to abuse glitches within the physics)

Though, to be fair, I did forget about the entire Gerudo Fortress Siege part.  That was actually interesting and creative relative to the genre, since while its a typical "Avoid the Guards!" scenario, the game does let you actually fight back either with sniping, or steathly smacking them (forget if yo have to stun them first, or just be out of their line of sight.)  Its this scenario that really highlights the rest of the game, cause its actually something unique and different, but the game doesn't deliver stuff like this on a regular basis, so the rest of the game being so...monotone? kind of stands out (I'm not saying "We need more Gerudo Fortress!" so much as more areas that actually use the system but in ways that are more than the standard "solve puzzles, open doors.")
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:25:12 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5583
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
I kinda like in Zelda games having the requisite "come back later with more gear, find cool stuff" aspects, since by and large they usually have dungeons that are easy to get around in once you have the dungeon tool.  Requiring random usage of older tools in really obvious ways is usually inconvenient though, yes.

I actually did get milage out of long-range sniping though.  You don't need it, but for whatever reason I got really into the archery minigame and thus the ability to shoot bats from halfway across the dungeon.

Edit: Actually, that's an aspect of Zelda games you didn't touch on much; collection-fests.  When it's just for cute little bonuses like Hearts and bag upgrades, doing the little minigames or digging around the world for powerups seems to be one of the main appeals of the series, I think.  Granted I dunno if the other two games have those aspects, or in the same degree/done the same way at any rate.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 02:11:01 AM by Cmdr_King »
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.