Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 46

[Nephrite]

"Fabulous! Marvelous! Let us see if you can keep up such fervor!"


Team Super vs. Dungeon Floor 3
Team MOUSTACHE and dude vs. Dungeon Floor 1

Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

----------------


Team Super | Edgar(Speed?), Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
[Floor 3b: Multiply (Before Midgame)]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)
Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
[Bartz: Monk (Mastered), Blue Mage]
[Athos: Eclipse, Bolting, Purge, Heal Staff]
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3)

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3)


Speed? - The speed of the bearer is set to 120% average speed and may not be increased. The rest of the team is set to 95% of their normal speed (not set to 95% period) and may have their speed increased.

MOUSTACHE - Allows the team to have 12 points because of the power of 'stache.

[Random Consonant]

Team Super | Edgar(Speed?), Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
[Floor 3b: Multiply (Before Midgame)]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania - Oh look Noiseblaster.
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage - FFT Priest is the only one that can block confuse and she's pretty much getting eaten.
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH) - Okay.  Super's team lives or dies here on a few key questions; first, do you let Marco block out-of-game status via Sky Drops (or allow them at all, for that matter)?  If not then this is not hard.  Moving on the the second question, who gets hit with sleep here?  Maxim has Awaken and I suppose if things get desperate Edgar can poke people awake, but if they're out then things are getting a little grim.  Third question, FFT charge times.  If we don't factor them in and Marco gets a turn to put people to sleep then we might as well call it game over right here, RH Sleep doesn't wear off until the afflicted takes damage and none of the enemies have any reason to do that until Marco chains ten turns together and ingloriously gnaws super's team to death.  If we do then the fourth and final question is does super's team have enough people awake to bring down Marco before he can act again?  Marco is below average durability on both fronts so it is entirely possible that he can, and if he can then things proceed to not matter as the enemy team can't make headway here.  I could be overanalyzing this fight and generally making things look bleaker for super than they actually might be, though, for all that I am reasonably sure that my general interpretation of the fight sees him as passing here.
Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash - The main danger here is things getting out of hand due to Magus's counter phase, for all that I don't see that being a tremendous issue here.
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS) - Straight blitzing to take the non-Golbez people out should work?  Willing to make the kneejerk at any rate, Cagnazzo not being actually fast should help matters.

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
[Bartz: Monk (Mastered), Blue Mage]
[Athos: Eclipse, Bolting, Purge, Heal Staff]
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Don't think there's much of a problem here.

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Or here.

[dude789]

Abstain for now for Super. Want to see more arguments.
Yoshi passes as well mostly due to Athos and Alakazam pasting everything although Mispolm could cause problems with his reflect skill.

My team also passes. On the first two fights Deis and Jerin do their jobs of spraying the enemy teams with MT damage while Bowser finishes off one of the enemies and Emily smashes the other. Mispolm/Deneb is more challenging but Deneb gets taken out immediately and Priest and Jerin can keep up healing while Attack Up Emily smashes. 4th and 5th fights go back to MT carnage from Deis and Jerin while Emily and Bowser finish off the enemies before they can move.

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, Atma weapon unscaled is 8 PC HP, is fast (respect varies, but it's there) and gains massive status pain at 50%. Atma would be good for the ST floor, but is absurdly brutal on the MT floor. I don't think anyone in recent memory would win this. Assuming the team's damage comes to to averagish (Which...maybe a little low, but not absurdly?), they pump out 2.4 PC HP a round. Atma essentially is crushing teams below 4 PC HP. Granted, I guess I have no idea on how many statuses Mind Blast hits with, which...could help. But there is still vast energy stored, and...yeah seems like overkill in the end.

[Yoshiken]

Dude: Moustache is my team.

Also, Mispolm (according to Neph) a) only casts the Reflect thing after being hit by magic, and b) is weak to electric, so uhh... Athos is doing a metric fuck-ton of damage to begin with, and Galuf can deal anything that's left. Not to mention GOBLIN PUNCH and a decent bit of healing now (albeit ST and no revival.)

[dude789]

Dude: Moustache is my team.

Also, Mispolm (according to Neph) a) only casts the Reflect thing after being hit by magic, and b) is weak to electric, so uhh... Athos is doing a metric fuck-ton of damage to begin with, and Galuf can deal anything that's left. Not to mention GOBLIN PUNCH and a decent bit of healing now (albeit ST and no revival.)

Sorry Yoshi, that's what I get for not paying attention. Agreeing with Dhyer that Atma is unfair for the MT floor. Kind of like when S2 Flik of the above average speed and OHKO damage was on the MT floor.

[Nephrite]

While I personally think some of you are way overselling Atma Weapon, I'll change it to something else.

EDIT: And updated to Magus and Slash. (I was considering adding Ozzie too but decided that was a little too much)

[SnowFire]

dude passes.

Dhyer: Atma Weapon doesn't seem THAT bad? Just taking Meeple's numbers literally, 1000 average damage per PC means 24000 / 2500 = 9.6 HP unscaled, except the dungeon explicitly uses scaled bosses, so it's 2.4 PCHP.  That is totally blitzable.  The status is a problem, but it's only one status that hits, for all that many of those statuses are trouble.  Also, "fast" gets scare quotes, Atma's not getting doubles off his putative speed, which is the main thing that would make "chip to 51% health -> everyone attacks for a round" problematic.  The real problem with Atma is that he punishes teams on the frail side of the average HP divide, since he has nearly but not quite a OHKO, which becomes an MT almost-OHKO to average.  And does it fast, so not much time to set up defensive buffs.  So he's scary but sounds entirely beatable if you have a team that has a >1PCHP durability healer and >1PCHP support which can deal 1.2PCHP in a round - not so hard in the Dungeon.

[Dhyerwolf]

It's another story if dungeon explicity uses scaled bosses, but I'm not sure where that is explicity stated. I know I've brought it up as a question before and didn't get a solid answer either way. And...yeah, some people respect FF 6 speed, some don't. Atma is numerically fast enough that people who respect it are going to see it as great. I'd suspect I'd see it at 125% for the same reason I never really see FF 9 boss speed above that (They can basically lap 1 person a turn), so I don't have often memory off FF 6 for that.

[Nephrite]

"Scaling

The dungeon will have ten floors, with four fights and a boss fight on each floor. Scale PCs in the Dungeon to their DL forms. If you'd rather scale enemies to their current floor, that's fine too, just be aware you may be in the minority. Bosses should be scaled against whatever you find easiest to vote or interpret, unless otherwise noted on the specific form. "



Whether that answers your question or not...

[SnowFire]

Also, again irrelevant since Atma Weapon got replaced, but Nephrite reminded me that Meeple's numbers are using front row only.  When uh this makes sense for like 1.5 characters, maybe, out of 12 potential.  So Full Power is waaaaaaaaaay suckier than the stat topic hyped, and Atma is stuck spamming Flare if he wants damage, which is only ~.65 PCHP damage.

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, basically Atma is a hard fight without the HP Scaling and smashable with it. I see the physical around 75%ish, but 10 PC HP generally means that Atma gets the time needed to fuck up the opposition.

But now to reanalyze

Team Super | Edgar(Speed?), Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra

Speed Thoughts: Edgar (120, Duh!), Maxim (90%), Zemeckis and Hydra ( Level advantage?), Hawk (Tad slow on the spell casting side), Kyra 98%ish

[Floor 3b: Multiply (Before Midgame)]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage- This could be potentially a bit annoying depending. Only FFT Priest blocks Confuse, but I believe it's also fast and now has MT Esuna. No clue on the CT there, but it's normally not great, so balancing issues would make me guess little. If so, I could see this team stalling for a while, but since the one with damage is always on the defensive their only source of winning is Slow Petrify staff smacks. I'm going to assume I don't need to reanalyze for that...but potentially so if the FF team broke up Super's team with healing.

Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)- Take the mess from last time, and complicate it. FFT WM is now Alma and Esuna is now DEATHSPELL 2. So Marco does get to sleep half of Super's team, and...Waken is floor 4. Ouch. So basically Super can get around the Sleep by MT smacking his own team. This...heavily depends on Deathspell's CT. If Marco AND Kresnik get turns...Marco sleeps half of Super's team, Kresnik MT Hastes and now Marco goes before Edgar's next move regardless of status of being awake. So looking at speed, basically assuming Alma's Deathspell goes off before Marco and Kresnik's turn, Hydra and Zemeckis are the ones that get a chance to take them out first. Do they combine to 90% damage? Alternately...if they attack, bye bye Confusion and then Alma goes before them with buffing...yeah, not feeling too solid here, but it really depends on how CT  plays off. There are a lot of question marks here, but even with CT falling against Super, if Zemeckis and Hydra can manage this, then they are good. At the same time, lot could go wrong, and MBarrier resolving quick enough is very, very bad for Super's team.

Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash- Slash is 130% (or something speed) with a 5HKO and later a 3HKO. Magus starts at 7HKO. They combine to approximately a 3HKO, and a 2HKO when Magus counters. This is slow going, but assuming everyone comes in, an MT healer owns this.
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)

[Random Consonant]

Also, again irrelevant since Atma Weapon got replaced, but Nephrite reminded me that Meeple's numbers are using front row only.  When uh this makes sense for like 1.5 characters, maybe, out of 12 potential.  So Full Power is waaaaaaaaaay suckier than the stat topic hyped, and Atma is stuck spamming Flare if he wants damage, which is only ~.65 PCHP damage.

Back row is a mechanically existant trade-off.  Its in-game relevency (or lack thereof, and let's be honest here, the number you're looking for is 0/12 because FF6 back row is less balanced than the kappa on Mardi Gras) is not something I see as a sufficient reason to view it as default (not to mention that it's too close to a bizarre form of elemental resistance for my tastes), but hey, if people want to say otherwise, I'm not gonna stop them.

[SnowFire]

If there was good reason to think that front row was "default" and back-row was "special," then fine.  But why assume the trade-off chosen is "use the front row?"  As another example, there isn't a clear "default" formation in Suikoden V.  So an interp that assumed that bosses always face True Men where everyone is in front and has massive defense penalties and 0 Evade, so prepare the Alenia damage hype, would be given a funny look.

Since there's no default, either assume that characters split it 50/50, or go by in-game use / what makes sense.  For me at least, both in-game use and "optimal" use mean "nearly all back row."  If you really did play FF6 always in the front row, then fine, but otherwise I'd think that 50/50 is the choice for "pretend that rows don't exist."  Which would make Full Power about .70 PCHP if at 75% power, so a wee bit better than Flare, but still entirely manageable.

--
Oops.  Unsealed a can of worms when the DL itself is already mostly dead.  Heh.  Oh well, insert interp pontification here, but feel free to ignore, realize after writing it how silly it is to get into it.  Don't take the above too seriously, it was written late at night.

[Random Consonant]

If there was good reason to think that front row was "default" and back-row was "special," then fine.  But why assume the trade-off chosen is "use the front row?"

Because, mechanically speaking, it is as far as I'm concerned.  No modifiers to incoming or outgoing physical damage not flagged as row-ignoring are made to the front row, whereas they are to the back row.  I assume the same is assumed with S5, assuming a hypothetical formation with no modifiers to anything.

Oops.  Unsealed a can of worms when the DL itself is already mostly dead.  Heh.  Oh well, insert interp pontification here, but feel free to ignore, realize after writing it how silly it is to get into it.  Don't take the above too seriously, it was written late at night.

Eh, I don't mind.  This sort of thing has been nagging at me and I'd rather get it off my chest while it's relevent.

[Dhyerwolf]

Sad day when someone needs to apologize on here for arguing over RPG stats.

Anyways, front row is "default" but that doesn't mean that back row shouldn't be held at all against bosses. We generally hold bosses against optimization, and back row for many setups is the optimal one. I kind see why someone would lean against it, but at the same time, unlike many other times of optimization, it's something everyone will be guaranteed to have access to.

[Random Consonant]

Edited for possibly less derp and more clarity.

Fair enough, all though I will say that there's a level of optimization that I'm okay with and there's a level of optimization that I'm not okay with, and this falls on the wrong end of the admittedly ill-defined line of what I'd consider myself comfortable with.  Formations (or anything that boils down to some form of positioning, really) that sacrifice less important stat x for more important stat y are something I'd not readily consider and this is something honstely... pretty much that as far as I'm concerned.

[superaielman]

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo- Black Chocobo is the only remotely threatening one in the DL, and it has a terrible HP/speed mix. Splat.
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer- I'm assuming that FF5 Geo isn't deadly.
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb- Stun slows down Dude's team, but Deneb explodes to any physical and Mispolm isn't especially threatening.
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo- Terrorize Frog at worst.
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3)- Don't recall Bowyer being much of a threat, and Dude's taem has a nice mix of speed/offense for this early on.


Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania- Noise blaster.
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage- Seals/noiseblaster should handle this.
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)- I don't think I let the sky drops hit stuff it can't block out of game. I probably have trouble if you make that call, but Kresnik is still statused from the opening noise blaster, and odds are Marco won't be able to put all my fighters to sleep at once.  To Dhyer: Zemeckis and Hydra are both above average damage at this point, so the odds of *splat* on unbuffed Marco are pretty good.
Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash- Physical blitz Slash, then control Magus. Shouldn't be hard, Maxim has a lot of healing and Edgar has ITD.
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)- I think I win this on average. Baigan's MT mini physical is a serious problem, but bad things happen if he doesn't manage to status out both Zemeckis and Hydra.

[Bardiche]

I think everyone passes.

[Dhyerwolf]

If Zemeckis and Hydra can OHKO Marco, they match may come down to MBarrier's resolution. With that up Zemeckis/Hydra can't and attacking unconfuses Marco/Kresnik, and then I don't think the 3 slow PCs have the mettle to take them out either. Although I suppose the faster of Kresnik/Marco could hit the enemies and then the slower could hit allies and screw things up that way!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Team Super | Edgar(Speed?), Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
[Floor 3b: Multiply (Before Midgame)]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH) - Sky Drops allowed. Super has trouble with Sleep and MBarrier.
Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
[Bartz: Monk (Mastered), Blue Mage]
[Athos: Eclipse, Bolting, Purge, Heal Staff]
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Bartz and Adray physicals~

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Kinda concerned here. Bowyer can completely lock out special abilities, and this team only has low-level Emily for physical damage. And if any of the previous fights managed to take her out, the team's doomed.

[dude789]

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Kinda concerned here. Bowyer can completely lock out special abilities, and this team only has low-level Emily for physical damage. And if any of the previous fights managed to take her out, the team's doomed.

It's early on so Bowser's physicals should be near the top of the damage curve. Priest should have enough JP for Raise if Emily falls in one of the earlier fights. The really problematic thing for Bowyer here is that he's slow and that he doesn't disable  a button until his second turn. Everyone on my team is getting at least one turn before he turns off a button and they can use that to blow up his support or Deis can nearly triple Bowser's physical damage with attack up. Button Disable also only lasts two turns so the team can use abilities in the time between when the button disabling wares off and when he uses it again.

[Dhyerwolf]

Bowyer is also not fairly durable. I don't know Sudowoodoo, but Yumi is...not remotely threatening in any way ever in dungeon. PC HP+takes a turn to use a move=team can deal with it fine.

[Magic Fanatic]

It's early on so Bowser's physicals should be near the top of the damage curve. Priest should have enough JP for Raise if Emily falls in one of the earlier fights. The really problematic thing for Bowyer here is that he's slow and that he doesn't disable  a button until his second turn. Everyone on my team is getting at least one turn before he turns off a button and they can use that to blow up his support or Deis can nearly triple Bowser's physical damage with attack up. Button Disable also only lasts two turns so the team can use abilities in the time between when the button disabling wares off and when he uses it again.

It's early FFT so Priest's MP is going to SUCK, and thanks to Speed(?), Bowser is going before Deis2, and therefore won't benefit from ATK Up until his second turn.  THAT SAID...



Team Super | Edgar(Speed?), Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
[Floor 3b: Multiply (Before Midgame)]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)
Team Super vs. Boss Magus and Slash
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS) - It's either fry to the two battles before the Full Heal or win, and I don't know what I've decided yet.

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
[Bartz: Monk (Mastered), Blue Mage]
[Athos: Eclipse, Bolting, Purge, Heal Staff]
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team MOUSTACHE vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - Enough SMASH of both varieties to win.  The scariest thing Sudo has is Sucker Punch (which isn't listed in the topic - maybe it's too new?) and being a Rock Type, which has its own problems.  Yumi has MT 15% damage reduction that takes a quarter of a turn to come out, ST one-time magic blocking that takes almost half a turn to activate, or EQ, which is SLOW (nearly 4/5 of the turn) - by turn, I mean a charge of 100, not average speed.  Pretty sure they can deal with whatever until they win.

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowser (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest (Earlygame)]
Team dude vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team dude vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team dude vs. Mispolm and Deneb
Team dude vs. Spar, Frog and Bo
Team dude vs. Sudowoodo, Bowyer and Yumi (S3) - See team Cosmo's False Mustache.

[dude789]

It's early FFT so Priest's MP is going to SUCK, and thanks to Speed(?), Bowser is going before Deis2, and therefore won't benefit from ATK Up until his second turn.  THAT SAID...

It might not make a whole lot of difference, but Bowser isn't faster than Deis2 even with Speed?. Deis2 is something like 170% average speed so even with the 5% reductions she's still easily faster than Bowser's 120%.