Issues Poll 4: Alcohol and the legal drinking age

[Dunefar]

Yes, strongly. It's needed.    - 4 (19%)
Yes, weakly. It's needed, but...    - 6 (28.6%)
Neutral.    - 6 (28.6%)
No, weakly. It's not needed, but...    - 3 (14.3%)
No, strongly. It's not needed.    - 2 (9.5%)

The DL's fairly split on affirmative action. This one doesn't surprise me, as it's a thorny issue that can have a personal, changing impact. This issue had a lot more variance than the others - it's interesting to see how strongly pro-choice the DL was, and thus falling towards the left - and how other issues are coming back as more balanced.

Today's issue is the legal drinking age. It varies across the world and no one really agrees on it. What do you guys think?

[metroid composite]

The DL's fairly split on affirmative action. This one doesn't surprise me, as it's a thorny issue that can have a personal, changing impact. This issue had a lot more variance than the others - it's interesting to see how strongly pro-choice the DL was, and thus falling towards the left - and how other issues are coming back as more balanced.

To me the results are actually very consistent--the DL is pragmatic.

It's not pragmatic to ban abortion--you just get people going to the black market.
In America it's not especially pragmatic to impose strict gun laws--there's already so many guns in circulation that you're not going to accomplish anything.
Affirmative action...well the DL doesn't like discrimination, but it's not going to take anti-discrimination to non-pragmatic extremes.


As for legal drinking age......

I'm definitely for "younger than America" which has pretty much the oldest drinking age of any country in the world (it's not legal to drink when you're in college, which is just nuts to me; you can buy cigarettes at 18 in America).  But at the same time, do I think 10-year-olds should have access to Alcohol?  Ehh...alcohol at age 10 can screw with brain growth.  Around 16 is probably growth/developmentally safe, but I suspect "legal at exactly the same time you can drive a car" is...probably bad timing.  So...yeah, 18.  18 is fine.  ...Actually, I'd prefer it to be "when you graduate high school, or 25 if you never graduate high school", but I'm probably biased because I graduated high school early >_>.  Mostly, the thing I don't like with 18 is that some 12th-graders can buy alcohol and distribute it to their high-school friends; and conversely, some people starting university need to get themselves a fake id.  I'd love to shrink the fake id market, and give people more incentive to graduate high school at the same time.

[DomaDragoon]

Pretty simple answer for me: you should be allowed to use things like alcohol once you become legally liable for the consequences.

[NotMiki]

In the US, people become legally liable for the consequences of their actions between ages 7 to 10 in most states.

I said 18.  That's the age the US uses to separate children from adults, and I think it works fine for alcohol, too.  I say this rather than 'whenever they're an adult' because I think 18 is the right age for the legal transition to adulthood.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

No age, but try anyone intoxicated as an adult regardless of age if and when they fuck something up.

Your body, your decision, your consequences.

[SnowFire]

Voted 21.  This has fairly nasty side-effects like binge-drinking in off-campus parties while nobody's watching, but I'm not sure we can unscrew that particular cultural issue now.  Something more like France where wine mixed with water is commonly served even to teenagers, but drinking to excess is frowned upon, would be preferable...  unfortunately, the idea that getting totally sloshed is awesome and a rite of passage is not going away any time soon.

That said, I would legalize some extremely wussy form of alcohol at 18, and hope people get a taste for just that.  I dunno, 8 proof wine coolers or something.  Let people pretend to get sloshed (though I suppose that risks law-abiding types misjudging their capacity when turning 21, but oh well).

[superaielman]

18 works. I wouldn't mind 16, but drawing a line saying you can't drink in HS makes sense to me. The drinking age of 21 is a moral and legal failure (see the culture of binge drinking in college), and it absolutely should be repealed.

MC stuff

If the economic impact of not graduating HS isn't enough to make people finish it, being able to 'legally' buy liquor isn't going to change things.

[NotMiki]

I should add: 18 is preferable because allowing 18-year-olds to drink may cause them to conceive of themselves as full-fledged adults, and that's a good thing.  It's hard to take yourself seriously as a member of adult society when there's a big legal barrier between what you can do and what the rest of them can.

[Captain K.]

Voted drinking should be banned.  There is no good reason to imbibe something that fucks up your brain to where you don't know what you're doing.  Of course, this is a magical fantasy world dream.  We already know from Prohibition that banning alcohol doesn't work.

The arguments others have made about the age of 18 sound reasonable.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

There's a perfectly good reason: it's my body and I can do whatever I want with it until it starts to hurt someone else.  People can't handle their shit? Let them suffer the consequences. That's their right as an American.

[Lord Ephraim]

Keep it at 21. Simple, 18-20 year olds are not really "adults" by a maturity standpoint.  People at that age are still in school, getting full-ride scholarships, having mom and dad pay for their dorms while they out partying and wasting their money away.  People who are not like that typically don't want to drink nor have the time (it's a social thing afterall), so why would they care about the drinking age?  People working straight out of highschool shouldn't even think about spending money on alcohol, let along other luxuries, considering the rising cost of living.

I would also have smoking age increased to 21 and driving age up to 18, but I hate dumb drivers and smokers and would prefer less of them as much as possible, but not a legit argument.

[NotMiki]

I agree 18-year-olds are typically not mature by many standards, but I think the best way to coax maturity out of them is to treat them as if you expect it of them.  Why would a studious 20-year-old care about the drinking age?  Because it's a mark of adulthood that he hasn't reached; it encourages "real" adults not to take him seriously.

[Cmdr_King]

None.  Now, if we were talking about purchasing age and drinking age as separate entities, there'd be a good argument for having some minimal limit (18 perhaps as a good round figure seen elsewhere in western cultural norms).  But we're not.  And as purely a dividing age between people who can never have alcohol ever, and get tossed in correctional facilities for doing so, and people who can drink until they kill themselves and no one cares, such a thing runs counter not only to our supposed values but to common sense.

Here's the thing.  As great as science is for most things, and as nice as having a basic guideline for how alcohol distributes through the body via measuring weight, muscle mass, and gender is, it's just that.  A guideline.  How large an effect alcohol has on a person varies by liver function, enzyme production, brain chemistry, as well as variables of addictability, self-control and all round social function.  This all adds up to what we generally consider 'tolerance'  As such, there is no set number on how drunk a person is until you reach certain extremes of motor impairment and thusforth.

Because drinking is, across all western cultures, a social activity, an expected function at many socializing events, it is important for a person to recognize drunkenness in themselves and have a working concept of how much alcohol it takes to trigger drunken reactions for them.  And it's not something you discover magically once you're 'an adult' and have imparted to you through divine intervention.  You will be a dangerous drinker until you have learned your own limits and what drunkenness is for you.  It's a skill, acquired knowledge learned via direct experience, and as in all social skills, putting it off until some nebulous 'adulthood' is just asking for dysfunction.

Though certainly alcohol can have debilitating effects on development, and must be carefully monitored during earliest life.  But it's the sort of thing any good mentor-figure should know and impart along with everything else to the learner.

[Carthrat]

Should be 18.

Kids drink at 15+. 18 is a time for huge parties. Everything about western culture reinforces that. It is impossible to enforce well and there's no real reason why it should be. People don't magically get smarter at 21, in my experience. All having a drinking age at 21 does is increase police overhead and give them either more responsibilities or more ways to arrest people for stupid shit.

Alcohol should not be blamed for the idiocy of drunk people; drunk people should. It is your own responsibility to figure out your limits.

Furthermore, 18 is the real line between child and adult, since that's roughly when high school finishes and people start to make real decisions about their future. It is their choice and their responsibility at this time. You are likely to be at your fittest and strongest, so it really is the best time for 'experimentation' since your body can handle it and it really is imperative to learn what you can take.

Admittedly a lot of this is based on cultural expectations as they stand. It touches on another issue I have (with America, at least); you can drive at sixteen but not drink until 21? One of these has you responsible for your own health, as well as the damage you might inadvertantly cause whilst drunk- likely to be small and your own damn responsibility, too.

The other gives you permission to pilot a giant speeding brick, which can and has caused untold misery in the past. I don't understand the reasoning here. Tangential, I admit, but I hope there's a poll about this in the future.

[Glen Veil]

Generally agree with Cmdr and Rob's thoughts, also seconding notion to have a poll on car laws.

[Grefter]

Some of the kids drink at 15 is from our drinking age though Rat.  At least on the scale we have underage drinking here in Aus.

That doesn't stop me from voting for whatever your local "adult" age is.  I don't think lowering the drinking age makes you more socially responsible or anything like that.  I do think raising the drinking age shifts personal responsibility onto the larger public and is just asking for far to much police overhead.

I especially want to take issue with the idea that the drinking age should be 21 just because  parents are supporting their kids through college.  Just like drinking is the responsibility of the 18 year old kid, throwing tens of thousands of dollars on education to a young kid is the parents.  I mean sure, look out for your kid all you can!  If you send your kid to an institution known for its drinking and you don't expect them to drink or trust them to drink then you are being just as irresponsible with your money.  Sucks but it is the reality of the situation.  If you don't think your kid will spend that money responsibly then you should make them work for it for a few years (maybe during school, maybe after it).  The kid is an adult, but you are still their parent.  They don't magically get $50000 when they graduate.

[metroid composite]

Admittedly a lot of this is based on cultural expectations as they stand. It touches on another issue I have (with America, at least); you can drive at sixteen but not drink until 21? One of these has you responsible for your own health, as well as the damage you might inadvertantly cause whilst drunk- likely to be small and your own damn responsibility, too.

The other gives you permission to pilot a giant speeding brick, which can and has caused untold misery in the past. I don't understand the reasoning here. Tangential, I admit, but I hope there's a poll about this in the future.

I can at least shed some light on that.


Look at the US map for driving ages:

http://i.usatoday.net/Wires2Web/20080909/3688951083_DRIVING_AGE_FIXx-large.jpg

Look at the states that have 14-year-old driving ages--usually farming states.  Canada is similar, with Alberta and Saskatchewan having 14/15-year-old driving ages.  Working on the farm, it's very handy to have your kid drive the tractor, or drive the truck into town for something you need.  In other words, there is a real, practical value to a low driving age--it increases productivity.

Now in high-population-density cities where you can't get a real job without a PhD anyway, whatever: set the driving age to 30 for all I care; makes people demand good public transit, and saves the environment!  (I'm exaggerating slightly for humor value, of course, but city driving usually is an unnecessary indulgence for urban teenagers).

[DomaDragoon]

In the US, people become legally liable for the consequences of their actions between ages 7 to 10 in most states.

Okay, that's a little young, but I'm fine with that as long as it's in moderation. Of course, buying alcohol would be a totally different question.

[Shale]

Should be 18. Old enough to sign contracts/live independently/go to war/vote/drive after midnight should be old enough to drink.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I voted for "legal adult age" although like Captain K I wouldn't mind Option 5, personally.

[Carthrat]

Look at the states that have 14-year-old driving ages--usually farming states.  Canada is similar, with Alberta and Saskatchewan having 14/15-year-old driving ages.  Working on the farm, it's very handy to have your kid drive the tractor, or drive the truck into town for something you need.  In other words, there is a real, practical value to a low driving age--it increases productivity.

I hadn't actually thought of this, and yeah, I'd agree that less developed areas (particularly with thin public transport) could well necessitate having younger drivers simply to keep things running. It was also pointed out to me many times that most American cities are lacking in PT, too, so a similar argument could be made.

Of course, optimally every city would have reliable bus and train networks, thus oblivating this need, but we can't have everything.

[Sierra]

Voted eighteen for most practical option given established culture of social drinking. Old enough to die for your country = old enough to drink, thanks. For all that I would be perfectly happy if people didn't do it at all, legislating morality almost invariably produces a poisonous social atmosphere and just hands the criminal element a monopoly on something people are always going to have an interest in doing no matter how much we might prefer otherwise. Also pretty squarely with Rob in not desiring intervention in a legal adult's personal decisions unless they harm someone else. So no prohibition, thanks.

[Ranmilia]

In theory I'd love to ban alcohol.  In practice, eh, what I'd like to see is something like... purchasing, 18 or local adulthood age.  Consumption, no minimum age.  Enforcement of the current US standards is a huge resource sink, it's a little silly to have a crime that one can only commit and be tried for as a minor, and the rest of the world (not to mention several cultures even in America, in private) seem to do just fine with lax restrictions and allowing even young kids to drink in moderation.  Harmful to developing brains?  Probably, yeah... but probably not worse than stuffing your kids with fast food, or smoking in a house with them, etc.  Sad but not worth the resources to pick out and criminalize.

[Halbarad]

I can't speak to other states, but having had an alcohol seller's license in Texas (which you can get at 16, go figure), I can at least state that there at least used to be no minimum age for consumption of alcohol in Texas - kids could consume just fine if it was given to them by a parent or guardian. Dunno if this has changed in the last 10-15 years (it's been a long time since I worked as a cashier) but I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't.

[NotMiki]

That's a good point.  Most states actually do allow underage drinking in people's homes (with little variations about whether you can drink underage at a restaurant with your parents, stuff like that).