Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 56

[Nephrite]

"How unfortunate... Let us see how deep you can go."

Nama, Snowfire and Magic vs. Dungeon
Team REPENT vs. Dungeon

Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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Team Nama | Rika (Life), Celes, Lucian+Shiho, Rand
[Celes: Kirin(M), Siren(M), Shoat(M), Unicorn(M), Zoneseeker/Seraphim (M), Fenrir (M), Phoenix (M), Raiden]  Esper Guide
[Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"]
Team Nama vs. Jude, Raquel, Arnaud, Yulie and Kresnik
Team Nama vs. Luke, Tear, Guy, Jade, Anise and Natalia
Team Nama vs. Dart, Rose, Albert, Miranda, Kongol and Haschel
Team Nama vs. Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna
Team Nama vs. Chaz, Wren, Rika and Rune

Team Snowfire | Celes, Feena, Red XIII, Strago (Neo Speed), Ricardo
[Celes: Kirin (M), Siren (M) Shoat, Unicorn] [Feena: Fire/Water/Wind Egg]
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Snowfire vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
Team Snowfire vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage
Team Snowfire vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)
Team Snowfire vs. Magus and Dalton
*Full Heal
Team vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)

Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team vs. Hahn, Tia, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Team vs. Palom, Porom, Edward and Yang
Team vs. Albel, Roger Huxley and Peppita
Team vs. Gandar, Belenus, Lawfer, Arngrim and Shiho
Team vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf and Reis

Blanca: Ipos (Arc Gale, Gale Spark), Uvall (Arc Cure, Heal)
Lucia: Crocell (Cure, Aqua Edge, Raise Up), Halphas (Entrance, Air Edge), Aim (Rage, Shield, Gale, Heat Edge), Asmodeus (Dark Resist, Evil Crest)
Ricardo: *Raise Up, Arc Cure, Heat Edge, Gale, Arc Mirage, Red Bounce, Gale Blast

Team Tal-Hatbot | White Wizard (DoS), Nash, Borya (Brey), Momo (With Enemy Skills) Angelo, Nall
Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)
Team vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Guido and Gorudo
Team vs. Rand, Cecil and Duran
Team vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Sharanda (LoD) and Lucius
Team vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5) and Garland (FF1)
Team vs. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Queklain


Synergy (Shadow Hearts): Blanca, Ricardo and Lucia start with 1 Stellar Crest. 1 Extra Crest is gained per floor and may be granted to one of the three.

Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

Neo Speed - The effective speed of one character is increased by 25% and increases by 25% each time that character takes a turn, this effect caps at 200% base speed. The speed of this character cannot be increased in any way, nor can this character grant or be granted turns via any manner. If the character dies the speed is removed and cannot be regained.

[SnowFire]

Right.  Some people commented in #NyarlieDungeon that their hesistance to vote on my team was due to unfamiliarity / needing a reminder.  So, a rough primer on what my team can do and notable interp splits.  First up, speed, since this is always important.

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Speed breaks:
(115-125%) Feena (will slow down to ~110%-120% on Floor 6 or so as Justin / Rapp get good speed boosting equipment)
117% Red XIII
109% Strago (= 84% + 25% neospeed bonus, gets +25% faster every turn he takes afterward)
107% Ricardo
101% Celes (ends up more like 98% by F6 if you take Meeple's stat topic...  which has issues, see below, I'd just peg her at 101% forever)

Ricardo & Red:
See SH3 and FF7 topics.

FF6 characters:
The *unequipped* average is 33.42 = 53.42 (everyone has an invisible +20 to their listed FF6 speed.)  FF6 speed is also totally worthless after turn 1, so I say that everybody is average speed as far as getting doubles barring things like Haste / Strago's Sealstone / etc.  Celes's unequipped Speed is 34 (=54), Strago's is 25 (=45).  (Endgame Strago gets Behemoth Suit for +6 speed, at least.)  In general I prefer to use the unequipped average because there's all sorts of fiddly bits that generally even out - a decent number of equips spread among characters give +1 / +2 to Speed, but few gives a larger increase to speed aside from maybe Behemoth Suit / DL-illegal Illumina / Wing Edge.  (Celes will get +2 Speed off Minerva and +1 Speed off something else by endgame, but others get +1 Speed off random other equips, etc.).  The endgame stat topic puts Celes ever so slightly below average, but also includes Locke & Gogo equipping *double* +5 speed Sneak Rings strictly for the speed boost, rather than say storebought RunningShoes which would be strictly better if you cared about speed and were willing to spend accessory slots, so meh at that hype which single-handedly raises the average by 1.43 points (enough to knock Celes back to above average, I believe).  I prefer to use unequipped for simplicity, especially on the pre-Floor7 floors.

Feena:
Feena speed at endgame against average of final 4 with "standard" DL equipment (Charisma Helms, etc.):
113% (Dark Holy Elf's topic)
107% (Dhyerwolf's topic)

However.  I'd argue that Feena's speed is relatively better earlier, because she cares less about equipment (she can't use the Charisma Helm which helps Rapp & Justin's speed a bunch, and Rapp's Evil Shuriken of +20 WIT is found in the last shop in the game before final Gaia).  Furthermore, and this is debatable, but I like to factor in the entire cast at least somewhat.   This pretty much makes all of the final 4 just better on stats.  There isn't a stat topic for this (it'd be hard to make a sensible fake-endgame one since endgame equipment doesn't exist for the temps without a Gameshark), but you can go by what characters were like at their time of departure.  And the other characters are all slugs.  According to Dhyerwolf's topic, Sue is 86% avg. speed, Gadwin is 89% avg., Milda is 61% avg., and Guido is 94% avg.  Not perfect since they should be weighted against each other some rather than repeatedly counting Justin / Feena, of course.  Your call on whether you buy taking into account characters who leave earlier at all - it's similar to whether you factor Elly into XG averages, etc.  Anyway, if you include the whole cast at all, the speed average drops to around 91% of what it used to be (400+86+89+61+94 / 8), which is around a 12% boost.

Additionally, since it's Floor 3 at the moment anyway, Dhyer's topic which has Feena at 107% avg. endgame has her at 119% avg. when Gadwin & Sue leave, which is around F3.  So yeah, I'd see her as ~120% for this floor.

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What can characters do?

Celes: Cure/Cure2/Antdot/Regen/Ice/Fire/Imp/Sleep/Mute/Slow(Safe off level?)
Learned this floor: Bio/Break/Doom/Remedy/Dispel/(Safe if not off level?)/Shell

Strago: I see Thamasa / Floating Continent as F4, so he's still on just Aqua Rake / Exploder.  BUT Aqua Rake is hax damage in a DL-legal environment where Terra probably still hasn't learned Fire2, Sabin is still Aura Bolting, etc.  One trick but it's a good one.  (I'll post Lore reminders next floor.)

Ricardo: See SH3 topic. ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,212.0.html ).  He's probably on his initial 4 tunes, but that includes the 60% MP regen if a battle is stalled with one enemy status disabled and waiting to die, so.  Stellar magic is constant the entire game.

Red XIII:
http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Red
Fire, Ice, Lightning, Heal, Revive, and one All Materia.
Fire/Ice/Lighning2, Heal, Esuna, Life.

Feena:
http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Feena
Skills:
Knifehurl, Randohurl
Paralyze Whip, Zap! Whip, Fire Whip

Magic:
Burn, Burnflame, Burnflare, Heal, Healer, Snooze (around 50% Sleep, MT), Alheal, Howl, Runner, Howlslash, Crackle, Shhh! (inflicts Silence), Crackling,  Fiora (inflicts Moveblock)

Comments on this floor in my next post.

[SnowFire]

The Multiply floor is all about the speedbreaks.  See above; my team does pretty well on 'em.  Also, Para Whip, sadly not even mentioned in the stat topic, gets hype here.  It's bad in a duel because it eats Feena's SP, does little damage, and the stun only lasts a turn...  but trading turns can be pretty useful in the Dungeon with support, and is furthermore totally broken on the MT floor vs. the Paralysis-vulnerable (hitrate is 100%).  Furthermore it's been ages but I think Para Whip worked on at least some bosses, though this may just be Grandia bosses failing rather than Spellbinding Eye-lite hype.  Other than that, Feena has other solid status options, and there's just a plain blitz too.

Additionally, if somehow an enemy does get going, the forced-MT nature means that hitting my team with substantial damage tends to provoke a Red XIII limit, which is probably death.

Team Snowfire | Celes, Feena, Red XIII, Strago (Neo Speed), Ricardo
[Celes: Kirin (M), Siren (M) Shoat, Unicorn] [Feena: Fire/Water/Wind Egg]
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Snowfire vs. Marcus, Seth and Titania
These guys are strong against melee teams which provoke counters, not ranged mages who at best fear Javelin plinks in response.  Blitz or Status, whatever.
Team Snowfire vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage and FF3DS White Mage
Status.  Para Whip, or even just Snooze / Shh!.  This team isn't particularly fast so Celes Imp at worst.
Team Snowfire vs. Alma, Kresnik and Marco (RH)
Just blitz, I have the fast damage to do it.  Unload with Zap Whip / Fire2 / Aqua Rake / Red Bounce, watch bodies pile up.  As noted, Aqua Rake still really hurts on F3, and FF7 magic is excellent until the ultimate weapons of F7 arrive.  Failing that, I win the slow game anyway.  I don't let Kresnik block status, but if you do, he still can't block Imp.  Marco will be forced to heal every turn and Sleep isn't a threat when a single tap / Esuna wakes up my whole team, and Ricardo Gales everyone for more turns.  Their ability to blitz me is non-existent anyway, and if it somehow got going would provoke a Red limit, and if that somehow didn't matter I have cheap healing and Alma has limited MP.
Team Snowfire vs. Magus and Dalton
Magus is literally worthless outside of counters, and Feena / Red can break all his non-Shadow barriers with elemental variety.  Just heal up after counters and before every real-Dalton turn and collect victory, or just blitz since there's a full heal coming up anyway and I've got good damage.

*Full Heal
Team SnowFire vs. Golbez (DS), Cagnazzo (DS), Mist Dragon (DS) and Baigan (DS)
LOL.  Both FF4DS Cagna and Baigan are apparently weak to Ice, so Red XIII's MT Ice2 shatters half this team.  Ignoring that Feena can toss in a Crackling if you respect their HP. Should be cruising with a 5 on 2 after that.

[Nephrite]

Added Tal's Hatbot team.

[superaielman]

Question: PS4 speed boosters/downers don't kick in until turn 2, right? Assuming they don't for now.



Team Nama | Rika (Life), Celes, Lucian+Shiho, Rand
[Celes: Kirin(M), Siren(M), Shoat(M), Unicorn(M), Zoneseeker/Seraphim (M), Fenrir (M), Phoenix (M), Raiden]  Esper Guide
[Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"]
Team Nama vs. Jude, Raquel, Arnaud, Yulie and Kresnik- Should be mangable. Rika uses Saner, Celes statuses out Raquel, Lucian murders Yulie.
Team Nama vs. Luke, Tear, Guy, Jade, Anise and Natalia- Raiden=goodbye. I don't think the team can stop Celes from getting it off.
Team Nama vs. Dart, Rose, Albert, Miranda, Kongol and Haschel- Miranda isn't hugely threatening turn one. Saner shuts down the rest of the fight to a hilarious degree.
Team Nama vs. Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna- Thinking that Rika going first and knocking out Zidane is too much.  Yuna can revive him and Zidane can status.... actually that's really bad, come to that. Zidane can Mini Lucian and... oh right, Shiho has normalize, so that offsets. Celes can block Zidane's status and Raiden the other team, which is probably death for them. Heal up, prepare for boss.
Team Nama vs. Chaz, Wren, Rika and Rune- Mmm. This match entirely hinges on one thing, and that's PS4 speed boosters. If Illusion kicks in turn one, Nama's team wins- Lucian and Celes will beat out Rune in that case, which is a win. Saner probably has the same effect, with the bonus of making the team resistant to Elim. Otherwise, the PS4 team overwhelms. No PC can block ID, and there is just way too much firepower floating around even with Rika taking out Rune turn one in that situation.

Tenative pass to Snowfire. The Alma fight is sketchy, but as noted by Snowfire, Kresnik can't block status. Alma's hard to take down, but she alsod oesn't do a ton of damage on her own- and the MT floor means healing it off itsn't too terrible.


Team Tal-Hatbot | White Wizard (DoS), Nash, Borya (Brey), Momo (With Enemy Skills) Angelo, Nall
Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)
Team vs. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Queklain-  It's worth absorbing the counter magic to 'blitz' this fight. Quek knocks out Momo right off the bat, leaving WW/Brey/Nash to prod at it. IceBolt+WW physical+Nash physical+Angelo physical shoudl be at least half PC HP. Quek can knock out Angelo next round with fear and Brey is probably killed by a magic counter in turn two, but they can overwhelm him in time anyway. This team is so very, very bad against bosses.

Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team vs. Hahn, Tia, Luna, Mareg and Shana-Tia+Luna sleep blitzing is a serious problem, but think the team has too much firepoewr to really care about that anyway.
Team vs. Palom, Porom, Edward and Yang- Twins don't get a turn. That's fight.
Team vs. Albel, Roger Huxley and Peppita- This team is pretty effective when it gets giong. Albel's not really a threat, Peppita is strictly ST, Roger is filler.
Team vs. Gandar, Belenus, Lawfer, Arngrim and Shiho-Blanca Arc Gales. This should let the SH2 team beat out the VPers offhand. They can gang bang out Shiho/Gandar at the least, which should be enough- I don't think the VP team can kill both revivers.
Team vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf and Reis- Yikes. This team absolutely murders slower fights like this.

[Dark Holy Elf]

PS4 speed boosters don't affect turn order on the turn they're used. They should, however, affect all other things related to the agility stat immediately: evasion, crit evasion, resistance to Elim, etc.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Nama | Rika (Life), Celes, Lucian+Shiho, Rand
[Celes: Kirin(M), Siren(M), Shoat(M), Unicorn(M), Zoneseeker/Seraphim (M), Fenrir (M), Phoenix (M), Raiden]  Esper Guide
[Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"]
Team Nama vs. Jude, Raquel, Arnaud, Yulie and Kresnik- They may get to kill Shiho, but Rika will ID Kresnik, Celes will status Raquel, Lucian will OHKO Shiho, Rand will revive, etc...
Team Nama vs. Luke, Tear, Guy, Jade, Anise and Natalia- Holy crap, this is a floor 7 fight? I guess Tear endlessly casting MT Invincibility is the threat here? I mean, it's slow, and the team has literally nothing else, so any team at floor 7 who can't deal with this would have fallen. Might be cool with a team where the other members could do something dangerous at all.
Team Nama vs. Dart, Rose, Albert, Miranda, Kongol and Haschel- Weird fight. This is either a really atrocious floor 7 fight or a really evil one. Since I allow SP, it's evil. Rika can ID Miranda...but there is nothing to stop Rose from going and 100% MT ID ing as she's faster than Celes and Lucian.
Team Nama vs. Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna- Playing this for theoreticals at least. This might be a tough match. Rika can throw out early Ids to help at least (Yuna will revive pretty quick though). Cecil also has revival, meaning to fully take the team out, they'll need to kill both Yuna and Cecil (And Rika does need to take Zidane out first I think). Not going to think too much since it doesn't matter.
Team Nama vs. Chaz, Wren, Rika and Rune- Ditto. Worse case if enemy Rika goes first and can ID Celes very easily. That's 50/50 and lets Chaz and Rune easily pick up Lucian and someone else. PC Rika goes first, probably buffs speed. Going to say that prevents turn 1 Elim to at least all non-Rand PCs. Enemy Rika then buff her team's speed. Chaz and Rune can combine to kill Celes by trying ID twice. Lucian can't kill really hit...Yeah, doesn't seem like there's too much luck this way either.

Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team vs. Hahn, Tia, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Starting with SP=Shana does get to go first and unleash 55% MT Damage on Everyone. However, Tia can't kill anyone, and Blanca and Ricardo can bring them about back to 0 with MT. The good is that there is a lot of revival, and Yuri 2 and Shania should have some way combined to kill Lucia. Leonardo's Bears are godsends here. I suppose you could say Tia's 50/50 status could throw a wrench in.
Team vs. Palom, Porom, Edward and Yang- A twin may get a turn, but...so much revival.
Team vs. Albel, Roger Huxley and Peppita- This team does not block Confuse; as such, two members are likely being confused (with the last frozen!). Can Ricardo get the status immunity songof any kind yet? Let's say yes, because 1 turn does a number.
Team vs. Gandar, Belenus, Lawfer, Arngrim and Shiho- This team generally needs few revivers to be scary.
Team vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf and Reis- I generally find that if a team is here, they win

[Magic Fanatic]

Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team vs. Hahn, Tia, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Starting with SP=Shana does get to go first and unleash 55% MT Damage on Everyone. However, Tia can't kill anyone, and Blanca and Ricardo can bring them about back to 0 with MT. The good is that there is a lot of revival, and Yuri 2 and Shania should have some way combined to kill Lucia. Leonardo's Bears are godsends here. I suppose you could say Tia's 50/50 status could throw a wrench in.

As of the start of this floor, Ricardo has Meteor Shower, which is MT Full Status Blocking for 3 turns.

Team vs. Palom, Porom, Edward and Yang- A twin may get a turn, but...so much revival.
Team vs. Albel, Roger Huxley and Peppita- This team does not block Confuse; as such, two members are likely being confused (with the last frozen!). Can Ricardo get the status immunity songof any kind yet? Let's say yes, because 1 turn does a number.

As for the reason that I consider these two fights so simple, Yuri and Shania have MP nuking in Mind Assault, are both faster than the twins, and at least Yuri is faster than Peppita.  Also, see the above comment about status immunity (and Ricardo is faster than average, so).  In short: MAYBE one twin gets a chance to cast something, and Peppita+Other threat die before they can move.


Abstain on Nama - Too many unknown numbers for me on both sides.
Pass to Snow, Tal, and myself.

[074]

PS4 speed boosters don't affect turn order on the turn they're used. They should, however, affect all other things related to the agility stat immediately: evasion, crit evasion, resistance to Elim, etc.

Doesn't really matter in this case.  Even without ID being thrown out left and right, three are above-average speed here, and pretty much beat out Celes and Lucian+Shiho here.  Quite literally, Disrupt->Megid->Positron Bolt wipes out the party with little chance for resistance.  (Even halved on the part of Megid, those three should add up to be enough to wipe everyone but Rand.  Who doesn't have MT revival.  Even if he revives Rika, Rika can only revive the others at 1 HP, so the party gets wiped.)

So unless there's something I'm missing here that lets Celes get a turn somehow and Raiden or X-Zone the other team into nothingness here, I concede my loss.

Ah well, figured I was losing either way, so I figured I'd let Hatbot decide how.  But it was a good run, all things considered.

[EDIT] Rune is also fast, forgot.  So it'd be Disrupt->Megid->Positron Bolt->Legeon.  Or maybe just Deban->Megid->Positron Bolt->Legeon.
Either way the team's done for.

[SnowFire]

Abstain on Nama.

Pass to Team TalBot / Magic, agree that T4's teams are in general average or below speed, which means the tight SH speed curve doesn't matter and Magic clobbers.

Namagomi: Rune is 51 speed to a 50.4 speed average (despite the stat topic misleadingly claiming 48).  He's outright below average speed if you include Alys and Seth in the average.

[Dhyerwolf]

As for the reason that I consider these two fights so simple, Yuri and Shania have MP nuking in Mind Assault, are both faster than the twins, and at least Yuri is faster than Peppita.  Also, see the above comment about status immunity (and Ricardo is faster than average, so).  In short: MAYBE one twin gets a chance to cast something, and Peppita+Other threat die before they can move.

The nuking aspect is more than questionable as it does enemy MP does absolutely nothing in SHs so taking it away doesn't hamper enemies at all. It's really just MP restoring.

[Magic Fanatic]

The nuking aspect is more than questionable as it does enemy MP does absolutely nothing in SHs so taking it away doesn't hamper enemies at all. It's really just MP restoring.

This is a valid point!

However also valid, however, is that MP is a quantifiable stat that is shared between both PCs and Enemies.  The fact that enemies don't USE their MP for anything is tangential, but it IS a stat that you can reduce to 0 through and for whatever means.

[Dark Holy Elf]

He's outright below average speed if you include Alys and Seth in the average.

Not that anyone sane should do this!

But yeah, if Rune twinks for speed he should be held against the twinking-for-speed average, which is 50.4. Still edges out average but that's it.

[dude789]

Yeah, Nama fails other pass.

[Dhyerwolf]

The nuking aspect is more than questionable as it does enemy MP does absolutely nothing in SHs so taking it away doesn't hamper enemies at all. It's really just MP restoring.

This is a valid point!

However also valid, however, is that MP is a quantifiable stat that is shared between both PCs and Enemies.  The fact that enemies don't USE their MP for anything is tangential, but it IS a stat that you can reduce to 0 through and for whatever means.

It's not tangential if completely reducing a stat has no meaning. Since it technically does nothing to enemies, why grant it any import here? Status doesn't go by what it does in a defender's game, so neither should this.

[Glen Veil]

Pass for team magic, Fail for team Nama