Author Topic: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community  (Read 13208 times)

Grefter

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2011, 11:37:44 PM »
If you are worried about low interest and all kinds of work going into it, I know it goes counter to your ultimate desires, but having it as a sub forum is always an option if it was just going to be a small insular community.

If it grows out from there you could invest that much more effort into it.

Hopefully though stuff goes well for you on the other sites and you do decide to go with the original plan though because yeah, peeps here are interested (which is the main reason throwing the sub forum idea back in the ring even if it isn't ideal).
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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2011, 01:18:42 AM »
If you are worried about low interest and all kinds of work going into it, I know it goes counter to your ultimate desires, but having it as a sub forum is always an option if it was just going to be a small insular community.

In the worst-case scenario where something like this might be needed...Subforum/Seperate Forum something we can switch between; it's not like the DL has never copied a bunch of posts from an old forum to a new forum.  In fact, it feels like we've done it half a dozen times....

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2011, 01:29:49 AM »
If you are worried about low interest and all kinds of work going into it, I know it goes counter to your ultimate desires, but having it as a sub forum is always an option if it was just going to be a small insular community.

If it grows out from there you could invest that much more effort into it.

Hopefully though stuff goes well for you on the other sites and you do decide to go with the original plan though because yeah, peeps here are interested (which is the main reason throwing the sub forum idea back in the ring even if it isn't ideal).

The thing is, I did that before, and it did not end well.  I don't know why, but being a subforum rather than a forum spooks users somehow.  I really want to contribute to RPGDL in some way, but I know that a subforum won't work.  Hence, my I-don't-want-to-make-this-painful-for-anyone attitude, and my insane level of preparedness/paranoia.

I did it with a SaGa Frontier data diving forum, and several other times with other projects for other games, only one of which is still only slightly alive.

Any collaborative media project which wants to suceed must make it as easy as possible for anyone - even the completely unskilled - to contribute.  Part of making it easy for people - especially newbs - to contribute is to do everything you can to eliminate confusion.  Sub-forums apparentally confuse the daylights out of newbs, so they're a no-go.

Also, this will work into my editor design demands, once we get some coders.  The editor must be open source, cross platform, and it must be easily updatable (ie, gotta have clean and well-commented code) and as simple as possible.  I believe simplicity can be achieved by first coding command line tools to do things like:
*de/compress different disk image formats
*extract/insert data from/into game files
*modify data tables in the game files
*rearrange data files within game files
*rearrange/delete/create new game files while updating the file system in the disk image
*increase or decrease the size of game files
*de/compress text and event data
*de/compress music and image file formats
*extract and reconstruct image and sound files
*import common file formats
*change raw image and sound files into a format the game can use
*parse and dis/assemble internal game-specific scripting languages, which may require another tool to:
**dis/assemble PS1 assembly language


The goal with these command line tools is to make one tool for each task, or at least make them share tasks which are related, like de/compression.  Once we have all the tools, we can create a GUI (possibly using the phoenix API - application programming interface - if the editor is written in C++), and then create a set of scripts which link "moving parts" of the GUI to specific commands for specific tools.

I'm no programmer, but that is what I gathered by reading posts of people who program editing tools and emulators.

The other important tasks are:
*Investigation,
*Documentation, and
*Reverse-engineering.
All of which are required before we can continue to the next most important set of projects, which are:
*Optimization,
*Rearranging, and
*Expanding -

All which will eventually allow us to add the new capabilities to SaGa Frontier.  But this is so far ahead, and there is so much to do, that there's no point in me talking about it right now.

EDIT

I forgot to mention, but trivial things in the editor - like the names of abilities and items, as they appear in the editor, along with various flags and bytes, explanation, and directions - should all be configurable through plain text files in the SF editor's home folder.    Also, I eventually see an additional number of low-to-mid level tools/scripts which will integrate actual changes to game text - like changes to the names of main characters, for instance - into the text of the editor.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 03:44:52 PM by xibalba »

Grefter

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2011, 01:51:41 AM »
In a community built around SaGa spaghetti code it is them being based in sub forums that turn people off?

In truth people really are strange creatures.
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metroid composite

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2011, 02:05:44 AM »
In a community built around SaGa spaghetti code it is them being based in sub forums that turn people off?

Could be.  We did the subforum thing briefly at...geez, I can't even remember the site anymore.  That fell apart after about three months.

In terms of can I explain the behavior psychologically?  Hmm...might have something to do with social identity theory--you don't feel like you're furthering your own tribe, you feel like you're furthering this other tribe you don't know very well.  Certainly there's a greater sense of autonomy and ownership when you're not a subforum--like...hypothetically if the DL decided to change the default background colour to purple (not that there are any plans to do so) and the Saga group was a subforum, well...they'd get that change by proxy.

So...there might be good psychological reasons for doing so.  Or it could be something that applies only to this group, where subforums just have a negative association--either way.  And groups are more likely to succeed and retain members when you set them up in a healthy psychological environment.  So...sure, if they say subforums just don't work for them, then I'm inclined to take their experiences seriously.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2011, 02:52:16 AM »
House of Game, for the record.

And honestly, it makes a certain amount of sense to me. Set up a subforum and there's the understanding that some stranger can call all the shots, banning whoever they want, etc. Not to mention that the "old" users can come in and post (and it would certainly happen in this case!) and the subforum folks get to see those people have 2000 posts and "elder forum god' status or something like that. Or something.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2011, 03:51:05 AM »
Re: headcount and such:

I'll be on this. I generally go by Eroneous Waylay on the rest of the internets (I have no idea nor good reason why I decided to do something different here. Insomnia, probably.)

I did a little work back in the early days of this whole SF data shindig, but this awful curse called "real life" choke-slammed me face-first into the concrete, which is to say I suddenly had no time to keep up with things. Now, that situation has changed.. ever so slightly. Ergo, my return (of sorts), and my being here.

In short: Thanks for having us. *Bows deeply* Now let us all offer praise and thanks to the almighty RedTurnip, and make offerings of delicious morsels.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2011, 07:02:59 AM »
Oh sweet,  SaGa fan hacking community! I remember a lot of the people's names I'm seeing in here. I spent much time lurking over at the gamefaqs forum up until about last year. I even put together a modest collection of stats and figures from the info Zaraktheus gathered. I would love to ccontribute to this community once it gets going!

In particular, let me know if you need any spritework or even simple banners/menu art done.

xibalba

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2011, 03:57:25 PM »
The first thing I want to do, once I get everything set up, is to fix the bugs in my hack generating spreadsheets.  Currently, there are two bugs.

*The first bug is a product of Excel.  Specifically, in Excel, the function concatenate can't handle ranges.  So, something like this:
**=concatenate(A1:A4)
*Won't work.  The fix is easy enough, but will take some time - I must replace every instance of concatenate(range) with the names of individual cells.  The following will work just fine:
**=A1&A2&A3&A4

*The second bug is something I haven't encountered, but Eternal248 of ffhacktics reported it to me.  Specifically, when he copied the hex data from it's cell and pasted it into the game file via hex editor, instead of pasting the data, it pasted a bunch of 0x30.  I think 0x30 is some kind of ASCII text code screw up, possibly because I created the spreadsheet in a Linux environment and he copied and pasted it from a spreadsheet editor in a Windows environment.
*Since I haven't encountered, and I have no way to test it (I don't have access to a Windows machine), I have no idea how to fix it.

Once I (or someone else) fix these bugs and the hack generating spreadsheets work, then we can easily make a mod which changes abilites, items, and mystic absorbs.  From there, we can proceed directly to a flagship rebalancing mod, with group decision making, while another group works on converting Zaraktheus's gameshark codes into hacks, which can be integrated into future versions of the flagship mod.

Future hack generating spreadsheets which can be made using currently known data:
*Initial character data //This will be very important for later versions of the flagship mod.
*Monster data //I already covered why this will be a pain in the butt, but it is currently doable - just very tedious.

EDIT

Someone just PM'd me the following:
Quote
I saw you asking for better sites than megaupload on rpgdl.
http://ifile.it/upload-classic.html
http://sharesend.com/
And for images
http://myupload.dk/
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:23:12 PM by xibalba »

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2011, 04:09:12 PM »
That does seem like an odd limitation of the CONCATENATE function. (Just tried it with OO, had the same issue.)

Do you have a link to these hack-generating spreadsheets, by the way? I'm quite curious.

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xibalba

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2011, 04:26:24 PM »
http://www.verve-fanworks.com/SMF/index.php?board=21.0
^Look for the topics marked as SaGa Frontier.  Specifically, item data, ability data, and mystic absorbs.  I just noticed that Rune Caster uploaded a new version of my item hack generator for SaGa Frontier:
http://www.verve-fanworks.com/SMF/index.php?topic=637.0

metroid composite

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2011, 04:49:55 PM »
*The second bug is something I haven't encountered, but Eternal248 of ffhacktics reported it to me.  Specifically, when he copied the hex data from it's cell and pasted it into the game file via hex editor, instead of pasting the data, it pasted a bunch of 0x30.  I think 0x30 is some kind of ASCII text code screw up, possibly because I created the spreadsheet in a Linux environment and he copied and pasted it from a spreadsheet editor in a Windows environment.
*Since I haven't encountered, and I have no way to test it (I don't have access to a Windows machine), I have no idea how to fix it.

Not that I've done much hex editing but...in C++ programming 0xABCD is typically how you write hexidecimal values.  Something like 0xAB would imply a two-byte value, which means probably a char or a boolean.  We can rule out boolean because that would be 0x00 or 0x01.  0x30 if we're assuming an ASCII char would be the character '0' (zero).

So...my wild and probably wrong theory is that all the blank cells in the spreadsheet are being converted into the string "0", and that string then gets converted into a hexidecimal representation of 0x30.

Quote
EDIT

Someone just PM'd me the following:
Quote
I saw you asking for better sites than megaupload on rpgdl.
http://ifile.it/upload-classic.html
http://sharesend.com/
And for images
http://myupload.dk/

There's also imgcake.com, which is run by someone on GameFAQs (specifically Board8) because he was tired of the BS on most upload sites.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:52:50 PM by metroid composite »

xibalba

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2011, 06:24:05 PM »
I got my global mods.
bybyr:
Quote
I'm afraid I'm not expert enough to be tech admin. I'm not educated in IT, all my knowledge is self-learning... when problem happens I will look for solutions online or asking my IT friend... when server or database crashed I could probably help, but wont be so fast like the savvy ones... if that's okay to you I will be glad to join. I'm GMT+7
winterking heish:
Quote
I'll use it. I will tell you th at, without someone to handle marketing, it's difficult to maintain a userbase. SaGa is such a niche game; I would imagine you'll have about 10-20 users that will be regulars and then a bunch of people that log in one time and never come back. Don't get me wrong: I love the idea and I'm all over it. I have a BS in Computer Science, but I don't know a thing about message board administering. Otherwise, I'd be in line to take your Eastern admin role. As it stands, I do have experience being a moderator and I'd be happy to take that role should you find yourself needing someone.

I figure the RPGDL admins will be the Tech Admins.  I still need people with specific personalities to mod specific boards. 
Quote
*Newbie Board - Those who can love and tolerate the daylights out of newbs will moderate the Newbie Board.  Also, you'll enforce some rules about Descriptive Thread Titles, and adding Solved to the beginning of thread titles once the question is answered - the goal being to eventually create a FAQ sticky stuffed with links.  People who help newbs also need to gently prod them to give detailed bug reports, which can later be verified.
*General Hacking - Need people who are helpful and tolerant (as in won't ban or really get mad at people for minor rule violations, or even some major ones) to moderate General Hacking.  Mostly, you'll be moving "Halp?" topics to Newbie Board, and trimming such posts from otherwise on-topic threads and into their own threads in Newbie Board.  So, although you have to helpful, tolerant, and patient, you must be unmerciful to topics and posts that belong in Newbie Board.  I really want to keep this board a place where all the hacking work-in-progress goes on, so we can dump all the finished products in Hacks.

*Hacks - Need someone who will edit, move, and delete off-topic messages, and who isn't afraid to be a little anal about it.  This board needs to be very slim - absolutely no posting unless you have a Hack and follow the submission rules; have a detailed Bug Report; have an Update and follow the submission rules; or you have a Testing Report.  This might seem like a pain for both users and mods, but this board exists as the single place to get ALL the info on every single SaGa Frontier hack.  You must trim every dandilion from the lawn.
*Mods - Need someone to trim off topic posts and topics here.  Much more relaxed than hacks.  Basically, we let the mod creators and maintainer decide when a post is off-topic and moderate as such.

*Tools - Each tool gets it's own board, and the tool creators and maintainers will moderate them as they see fit.

*(Project Name) Discussion - Coders and maintainers will mod this boad.  Until we get some coders, this board is just a clone discussion board.  Anything goes, as long as it's about a clone of SaGa Frontier - need to get the creative juices flowing, if you know what I mean.

An Aside: Once we have a glut of mods with multiple topics, we can change our forum layout  a bit.  We'll move the Hacks board to the Hacking section, and in the projects section we'll create a Modding Ideas board, and move every WIP and complete mod topic to their own boards within the Projects section.

Oh sweet,  SaGa fan hacking community! I remember a lot of the people's names I'm seeing in here. I spent much time lurking over at the gamefaqs forum up until about last year. I even put together a modest collection of stats and figures from the info Zaraktheus gathered. I would love to ccontribute to this community once it gets going!

In particular, let me know if you need any spritework or even simple banners/menu art done.
You wanna be the mod for the Spriting, Ability Graphics, and Backgrounds boards, once we have an image extracter/inserter and palette editing tool?  It helps to have a graphic artist mod the graphic artist's boards.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2011, 06:07:55 AM »
SaGa Frontier sucks.  The only good SaGas are 1, 2, and Last Remnant.  /troll

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2011, 06:12:09 AM »
You forgot Unlimited SaGa.  For some strange reason.
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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2011, 06:14:16 AM »
I doubt even the hardiest of trolls could use Unlimited SaGa in this context. 

I remember remarking not so long ago that the DL was one of the bigger havens of SaGa Frontier fans on the web.  I like that this will soon be literal.
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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2011, 03:40:50 PM »
Oh sweet,  SaGa fan hacking community! I remember a lot of the people's names I'm seeing in here. I spent much time lurking over at the gamefaqs forum up until about last year. I even put together a modest collection of stats and figures from the info Zaraktheus gathered. I would love to ccontribute to this community once it gets going!

In particular, let me know if you need any spritework or even simple banners/menu art done.
You wanna be the mod for the Spriting, Ability Graphics, and Backgrounds boards, once we have an image extracter/inserter and palette editing tool?  It helps to have a graphic artist mod the graphic artist's boards.

Oh sure, I already do a little of that over at the ff6hacking.com romhack site. I'm not sure how much time I'll have for it. As-is, I reliably sign in to the DL about 7 times a week, though not necessarily every day. Assuming you don't need constant moderation, I'll probably already be checking any graphics section you have quasi-religiously.

It's good to see this forum would have such a passionate leader. MOAR RedTurnips for everyone!

Fun idea for a first project: Replacing SaGa Frontier sprites with Legend of Mana sprites. Graphic-style and sizing are at least approximately the same according to YYchr.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »
I actually haven't played Unlimited SaGa!  I couldn't bring myself to part with the $10 when stores were dumping it.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2011, 05:02:20 PM »
Oh sure, I already do a little of that over at the ff6hacking.com romhack site. I'm not sure how much time I'll have for it. As-is, I reliably sign in to the DL about 7 times a week, though not necessarily every day. Assuming you don't need constant moderation, I'll probably already be checking any graphics section you have quasi-religiously.

You don't really need to be around if users are active about marking posts.  You get an email when a post gets marked.  (Although...this assumes you check email regularly).

xibalba

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2011, 08:34:35 PM »
Here are the people who are interested.  This doesn't count the RPGDL people.
GameFAQs: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/198537-saga-frontier/61268429
*tonicpalin
*JBugaboo
*Erroneous Waylay
*Mir_Vimes (me)
*bybyr
*Myertch_Aileron
*DragonAtma (maybe - he's a SaGa Frontier fan at gamefaqs, but he didn't come out and say he would join).
*velosify
*winterking heish
*xloto (maybe - he didn't come out and say he would, but he's been with us since the game was released, so I assume he's coming)
*DoomSwell (maybe - he likes GameFAQs and his computer sucks.)  Here's what he said about the RPGDL, "RPGDL is bugging out on me, all the posts have no text, the avatars are in the middle of the screen and theres blue lines going down.
Does it have problems with Opera? ... Yes, yes, apparently it does... Ugh, I hate using IE."

ffhacktics: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8122.0
*lijj (maybe - he expressed interest in modding, but I don't know if he'd join the forum.)
*zozma (maybe, but he's been with us at GameFAQs too for about five years, so I assume he's in.)

byuu.org: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2235
*D-- (probably - he said he's a huge fan, and even offered some money to host us before I got the offer from RPGDL)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 11:10:47 PM by xibalba »

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2011, 11:44:44 PM »
Oh man, I really hope lijj shows up. His sprite art is amazing.

xibalba

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2011, 11:51:53 PM »
Currently, we can extract some of the sprites with their palettes intact, but not enough to completely remake a character.

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2011, 02:17:29 PM »
I suppose it shouldn't shock me that SaGa Frontier code is so fucked up that they don't even keep the sprites information all in the same general area... but it does anyways.
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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2011, 08:47:23 PM »
You know Square's track record with the Saga series as a whole. Of the original three, only the third one couldn't be broken to the extent the first two games could (heck, when an RPG meant to have 2-5 hours put into is cleared in 56 seconds, you know something went wrong).

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Re: DL subhosting for SaGa modding community
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2011, 09:16:33 PM »
(heck, when an RPG meant to have 2-5 hours put into is cleared in 56 seconds, you know something went wrong).

Depends what the details are.  Like...this doesn't especially bother me, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yXTpnUCh5Q