Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 59

[dude789]

What's the gameplan after the first turn though? PS4 characters can buff as well and in general their buffs are more effective than Shadow Hearts buffs. In particular, Rika can murder your team's speed with Illusion and buff up her team's with Saner, if Wren gets a turn then he's putting up Barrier which essentially halves your teams damage output. You're hyping a mediocre 33% speed buff as granting your entire team the ability to do things like 3-2 Nash which seems extremely overhyped to me.

Edit: Reminder that Rune has 100% MT Silence so he has to go before he gets a turn or everyone has to dedicate 3 accessories to status blocking.

[Magic Fanatic]

What's the gameplan after the first turn though? PS4 characters can buff as well and in general their buffs are more effective than Shadow Hearts buffs. In particular, Rika can murder your team's speed with Illusion and buff up her team's with Saner, if Wren gets a turn then he's putting up Barrier which essentially halves your teams damage output. You're hyping a mediocre 33% speed buff as granting your entire team the ability to do things like 3-2 Nash which seems extremely overhyped to me.

You haven't seen the Shadow Hearts 2 topic by Dhyer, then.  It pretty clearly states that Lucia (who is 96.5% CTB speed) goes up to 190% CTB speed after one casting of Gale.  Other characters are faster, so they'll benefit almost as much as Yuri (who, FE'd, goes up to 210% CTB speed).

PS4 speed (de)buffs are active the turn AFTER they're cast, due to the way the system works...  If she's spending her time casting buffs/debuffs, then I also get to have fun things, like a For Everyone'd, Entrance'd For the Children, as well as really screwing up Chaz's offense by dropping Megid's damage by 36% due to the debuff from Evil Crest on...  Blanca, Ricardo, AND Lucia.

Hell, I still have an argument to have Blanca Arc Gale the team, Ricardo cast EntranceBlanca cast Aurora and Ricardo Double Gale and Entrance on Yuri, then have Yuri (who is TONS faster thanks to Arc Gale, easily faster than Wren now (but I've healed if you don't think I have)) use FtC to deal about 1200 damage to an 850 Kill Point.

Edit: Reminder that Rune has 100% MT Silence so he has to go before he gets a turn or everyone has to dedicate 3 accessories to status blocking.

Not sure why three.  Leonardo Bears catch ID, Cosmic Bracelets catch Poison and Seal.  All the other status on the floor can be dealt with since it's ST, or non-threatening in the long run. (Don't try to hype Nash's non-sleep status, the AoE on those is tiny and almost can't hit more than one person.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Rika only equips one Silver Tusk and equips another Guardian Claw, making her attack a bit higher than what you noted. Also, when hitting weakness, PS4 applies the weakness to both weapon hits - thus why she doesn't need to equip two Tusks, which I'm not sure she can even do (don't think there's a second ST) and honestly doesn't matter, Silver Tusks are weaker than the Guardian Claw.

[Magic Fanatic]

Rika only equips one Silver Tusk and equips another Guardian Claw, making her attack a bit higher than what you noted. Also, when hitting weakness, PS4 applies the weakness to both weapon hits - thus why she doesn't need to equip two Tusks, which I'm not sure she can even do (don't think there's a second ST) and honestly doesn't matter, Silver Tusks are weaker than the Guardian Claw.

Fine, damage goes up by 18*1.25, or ~23.  She needs ~35 points of increase in damage for it to kill Shania.

[dude789]

What's the gameplan after the first turn though? PS4 characters can buff as well and in general their buffs are more effective than Shadow Hearts buffs. In particular, Rika can murder your team's speed with Illusion and buff up her team's with Saner, if Wren gets a turn then he's putting up Barrier which essentially halves your teams damage output. You're hyping a mediocre 33% speed buff as granting your entire team the ability to do things like 3-2 Nash which seems extremely overhyped to me.

You haven't seen the Shadow Hearts 2 topic by Dhyer, then.  It pretty clearly states that Lucia (who is 96.5% CTB speed) goes up to 190% CTB speed after one casting of Gale.  Other characters are faster, so they'll benefit almost as much as Yuri (who, FE'd, goes up to 210% CTB speed).

PS4 speed (de)buffs are active the turn AFTER they're cast, due to the way the system works...  If she's spending her time casting buffs/debuffs, then I also get to have fun things, like a For Everyone'd, Entrance'd For the Children, as well as really screwing up Chaz's offense by dropping Megid's damage by 36% due to the debuff from Evil Crest on...  Blanca, Ricardo, AND Lucia.

Hell, I still have an argument to have Blanca Arc Gale the team, Ricardo cast EntranceBlanca cast Aurora and Ricardo Double Gale and Entrance on Yuri, then have Yuri (who is TONS faster thanks to Arc Gale, easily faster than Wren now (but I've healed if you don't think I have)) use FtC to deal about 1200 damage to an 850 Kill Point.

Edit: Reminder that Rune has 100% MT Silence so he has to go before he gets a turn or everyone has to dedicate 3 accessories to status blocking.

Not sure why three.  Leonardo Bears catch ID, Cosmic Bracelets catch Poison and Seal.  All the other status on the floor can be dealt with since it's ST, or non-threatening in the long run. (Don't try to hype Nash's non-sleep status, the AoE on those is tiny and almost can't hit more than one person.)

Alright, looking at the stat topic it looks like SH2 speed works is some weird exponentially increasing way that is tied to the stat rather than the buff itself. Okay so, Rika goes first and uses Illusion setting which reduces everyone on the teams agility to 0 but we'll say the turn order holds for this turn.  Chaz goes next and Megids everyone. Blanca goes next and he has to Aurora or else Wren blasts them all with Positron Bolt, killing everyone. With Illusion in effect the Gale spells are worthless. Wren sets up Barrier turning the entire team into ridiculous magic tanks. Entrance and Barrier essentially cancel out and the PS4 team should be able to shrug off FtC and whatever Shania does. Next turn the PS4 characters all get their turns at once and Megid, Positron Bolt, Legion, Disrupt takes out the team.     

[Clear Tranquil]

Just wondering if Magic's team will be able to take advantage of Ricardo/Lucia's MT Third Key effect skills this floor at all? Or if this build is too magic orientated for it to do much~

I know they were good with peeps like Joachim, Kurando, physical twinked Hilda, etc but not sure here.

[Magic Fanatic]

Alright, looking at the stat topic it looks like SH2 speed works is some weird exponentially increasing way that is tied to the stat rather than the buff itself. Okay so, Rika goes first and uses Illusion setting which reduces everyone on the teams agility to 0 but we'll say the turn order holds for this turn.  Chaz goes next and Megids everyone. Blanca goes next and he has to Aurora or else Wren blasts them all with Positron Bolt, killing everyone. With Illusion in effect the Gale spells are worthless. Wren sets up Barrier turning the entire team into ridiculous magic tanks. Entrance and Barrier essentially cancel out and the PS4 team should be able to shrug off FtC and whatever Shania does. Next turn the PS4 characters all get their turns at once and Megid, Positron Bolt, Legion, Disrupt takes out the team.   

If that's the case, I would like to remind that if Rika opens with Illusion...  Ricardo has no reason to cast Gale, and instead Doubles Evil Crest and Entrance on Yuri.  Yuri uses FtC, which the extra damage is cancelled out by Wren's Barrier...  But For the Children also adds Prone to everyone, causing them to take double damage until their next turn.  Rune gets out of this free, but he's the only one.  Next, Shania Double Combos her physical and Sun Flare, and then Ricardo gets his next turn to cast...  Evil Crest again.  That should wipe out AT LEAST three, if not all of the PS4 team.  (I'd gather that the (Element) Crest spells deal about 300ish damage on base).  Also, that means Lucia isn't eating death, and that's a THIRD Evil Crest or a Bright Crest coming out before the end of the turn.

[dude789]

Just wondering if Magic's team will be able to take advantage of Ricardo/Lucia's MT Third Key effect skills this floor at all? Or if this build is too magic orientated for it to do much~

I know they were good with peeps like Joachim, Kurando, physical twinked Hilda, etc but not sure here.

I think MP would be an issue, since I think they had aftergame level MP costs.

[Magic Fanatic]

Just wondering if Magic's team will be able to take advantage of Ricardo/Lucia's MT Third Key effect skills this floor at all? Or if this build is too magic orientated for it to do much~

I know they were good with peeps like Joachim, Kurando, physical twinked Hilda, etc but not sure here.

I think MP would be an issue, since I think they had aftergame level MP costs.

Very true.  Ricardo's is 750(!) MP to use, and Lucia's is 900(!!!) to use.  You typically aren't seeing them used in-game without some overleveling and Priest Earrings (MP Consumption -20%)+Oracle Earrings (Max MP +20%).  Resourceless Stone is another story.

[Random Consonant]

Rika only equips one Silver Tusk and equips another Guardian Claw, making her attack a bit higher than what you noted. Also, when hitting weakness, PS4 applies the weakness to both weapon hits - thus why she doesn't need to equip two Tusks, which I'm not sure she can even do (don't think there's a second ST) and honestly doesn't matter, Silver Tusks are weaker than the Guardian Claw.

Fine, damage goes up by 18*1.25, or ~23.  She needs ~35 points of increase in damage for it to kill Shania.

This is all well and good but I hope you have some means of getting people to go before Wren first turn or he just finishes what Chaz/Rika started, because unless SH2/3 speed is better than it looks, nobody's managing it going by the numbers in the topic.

[Magic Fanatic]

This is all well and good but I hope you have some means of getting people to go before Wren first turn or he just finishes what Chaz/Rika started, because unless SH2/3 speed is better than it looks, nobody's managing it going by the numbers in the topic.

New average: 50.4444 (for Alys-and-Seth-B-Gone)
SD: 8.73
Rika: +1.67
Chaz: +.63
Wren: +.29
Rune: +.06

Stat topic is a bit off on averages.  Also, this is me assuming at 1 SD is equivalent to about 20% CTB speed, putting Wren at 105.8% average speed - slower than Blanca and Ricardo.

[Random Consonant]

Ah, taking SDs as lower than +/-25%.  That would explain things, for all that I don't take that viewpoint.

(also dude I know the topic is off I think I pointed that out in chat ages ago, or if not was there when it was) 

[Dhyerwolf]

Team OK vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5): By now, Rikku must have an OD built up. Null all mix and faceroll.
Team OK vs. Locke, Karn, Zidane and Vyse: Purim has status healing. Zidane has to go for her. OK's other 4 girls kill him. Locke, Karn and Vyse can score 1 kill in 2 turns but the 3 survivors then just round robin heal and win a nice slow fight, since those enemies can't 1 round anyone.

If every match before this doesn't matter, then the previous enemies have no reason to attack seemingly, so no reason Rikku would have an OD by then.

[SnowFire]

Team Snowfire vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper: Wait wait wait, there's no way in hell Red and Feena have enough damage between them to 2HKO Vesper, and Celes goes last in this battle. Blitzing him with the help of strago or ricardo obviously isn't an option, since unless they both cast their buffs, decus and cyril annihilate everyone but celes and feena, then keep doing it over and over when the revives are cast until celes and feena run out of MP. So... vesper gets a turn and gets to rip some MP off, as well as take some more damage. He probably goes after Feena's MP to put a cork on that insane MT healing. How does this change the battle?

The Celes-losing-the-speedbreak interp makes the fight tougher, but don't think it's fatal.  Vesper gets a turn and MP drains Feena, sure.  Celes casts MT Cure2 I suppose.  Strago (remember that he speeds up every round he's not killed thanks to NeoSpeed) either GrandTrains or CleenSweeps and finishes off Vesper.  (CleanSweep ignores split damage and apparently does double damage to Decus).  Feena still has SP and some MP left (Vesper doesn't have a 100% MP drain it seems, just 75% or so) so she does something - maybe Alhealer to top the team off, MP permitting.  Red attacks Decus.  Ricardo, dunno, he probably has Stock he could blow if he wanted too, but let's say Gales Celes?  (Arc Cure is also an option if still needed)  The Gale should mean that even the stat topic Celes who is 1 point below average Speed w/ Equips might outrace the Wisemen and Bio Decus or something.  Even if they resolve another set of MT spells, the team survives thanks to buffs, Strago has a double coming up, Decus dies round 3 at the latest if not before his 2nd turn, and Ricardo plays the MP regen spell while stalling out Cyril.  (Not that the next fight is all that hard anyway.)

[Monkeyfinger]

Team OK vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5): By now, Rikku must have an OD built up. Null all mix and faceroll.
Team OK vs. Locke, Karn, Zidane and Vyse: Purim has status healing. Zidane has to go for her. OK's other 4 girls kill him. Locke, Karn and Vyse can score 1 kill in 2 turns but the 3 survivors then just round robin heal and win a nice slow fight, since those enemies can't 1 round anyone.

If every match before this doesn't matter, then the previous enemies have no reason to attack seemingly, so no reason Rikku would have an OD by then.

I responded to that already

Fast, active characters in FFX get ally mode really really really early in-game

stuff

Yeah, sounds fair enough. Pass for snowfire.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rikku needs 320 turns in order to get Ally mode, and this number is cooked to be low because she joins late; the other six PCs average 447, which I'd assign to her if we're allowing her to start building Overdrive modes before she'd join in-game. No way is this is happening by floor 2 based on normal in-game play.

That said, I could see a case being made for stalling out a battle for hundreds of turns (assuming the team can pull this off at some point) and getting the mode directly that way. No opinion there.

[Dhyerwolf]

The first three fights just won't hit anyone then. I'm assuming that dungeon enemies are smart enough to realize that if they basically have no chance, then they won't attack when someone can build up a limit (That said, I go by chances myself, but there's a 50% chance Nikki flat out IDs Rikku and a 25% chance Ice Sword Snowman misses-- assuming that it starts off at 75% of course, and a 20% Nikki gets a Quick and probably then goes before Yukiko anyways. Those are super nasty turn 1 off high speed. Let alone that those three may just barely scrape killing Nikki, and it's not a surety looking at it. Kyra's damage is probably below average?, Rikku is just weird. If Rikku is assumed to have some HP, then scaling wise that damage is worse).

Team Tal-Hatbot | White Wizard (DoS), Nash, Borya (Brey), Momo (With Enemy Skills) Angelo, Nall
[Floor 3a: A Singlet]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, are single target for this floor and may be targetted regardless of original conditions.
Team Hatbot vs. Chris, Rody (Firefly Rune (Not Sealstone)), Alanis and Melville- Huh, so are field target attacks just purely ST too? I'm assuming so, because at least as the first Nash attack is directed at Rody, they can't win. Alternately, it would then explain how anyone would get past Wall Rune-Firefly Rune.
Team Hatbot vs. Kiryl and Angelo
Team Hatbot vs. Flora (WoZ)
Team Hatbot vs. Atma Weapon
*Full Heal
Team Hatbot vs. Dario and Miguel

Team Snowfire | Celes, Feena, Red XIII, Strago (Neo Speed), Ricardo
Speeds:
Strago: 115%ish, 50% MT ITD Magic
Red: 110%ish, 40% ITE Phys
Feena: 110%ish (Gutting here), 40%ish ITE Magic (Better than I see it, but just for argument sake)
Ricardo: 105%ish, 30% (MT?) Fire, 25% Phys or other elements
Celes: Average, 45% Ice Magic


[Celes: Kirin (M), Siren (M) Shoat, Unicorn, Phantom, ZoneSeek, Tritoch, Phoenix] [Feena: All Eggs]
[Floor 6a: Underachievers]
Team Snowfire vs. Largo, Sync, Legretta and Asch
Team Snowfire vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper- This is the one that apparentally, so...
For me the SO 2 enemies are about 2-2.5 PC HP
Decus: 85% MT Fire Magic, 55% MT Fire Phys, 25% Normal Phys
Vesper: 74% MP Drain
Cyril: 78% MT Wind Phys, 50% NE MT Magic

So the team can do 90% MT NE stuff, plus another 40% off Red. Now...it seems like Celes needs to go before Decus for sure. If so, 90% PC HP should finish him off with Red and Ricardo focusing. Feena or Strago now lacks MP (Now longer able to cast Zap Whip, Tree of Life or EotW or next match). Danger here is that I think Mind Absorber is pretty quick, so the team might eat 2.

Team Snowfire vs. Miguel and Queen Zeal- CC boss scaling is a mess, but Miguel is either fast and fairly durable, fast as hell and not durable, or CC boss scaling just reams them in general. Oh yeah, absolutely no MT can be used at all, which means
Strago: Blowfish (Yessssss) (15%, Clearly would not be on the offensive. As the second MP drain target)
Feena: Something quite bad as I'm assuming she's MT draining first. (10%?)
Celes: 45%
Ricardo: 25%
Red: 40%

While Miguel uses about 80% ST Damage, Zeal can adds 40% MT Damage, meaning that there's a death a round, but Big Guard cuts this to 80% if MP is there. The team does 135% a round if attacking all out. I think if they come into this match well heal, decently stocked on the right limits, and with only one person MP drained, they will be fine.

*Full Heal*
Team Snowfire vs. Zio, Zera Valmar and Mohs- Zera Paral is pretty damn accurate. Celes' evasion should save here against turn 1 though. Strago is gotten though. Zio does have about 50% MT Damage, and Mohs...is here. Feel like this match doesn't have any problem components, but Feena may need to blow a Tree of Life to get rid of status and heal at the same time perhaps.
Team Snowfire vs. Patriarch and Orgulla (XS2)- Oh my head. So let's assume the team is here. The bad: these two are extremely durable, and there isn't a lot of the right damage here overall. Orgulla stays in Manes, buffs (with the Hasting), and then proceeds with Poizn. Crazy durability doesn't make this a bad strategy (and since you can't come in with limits here or else she goes first and drains them), works against that too. Meanwhile Patriarch goes around just statusing. But Feena's MT awesome healing helps here (2 shots though left though, so if they rack status  up quickly, it's not lasting long).

So...this team I don't know. There's kind of a lot, because I don't feel like anyone here is particularly adept at finishing off bosses, and there are few whose durability I respect. They don't feel particularly great in a long slugging haul. My strong gut says that they fall at some point though.


Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)- Later!
[Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"]
Team Magic vs. Alex, Jessica, Kyle, Nash and Mia
Team Magic vs. Jude, Raquel, Arnaud, Yulie and Kresnik
Team Magic vs. Dart, Rose, Albert, Miranda, Kongol and Haschel
Team Magic vs. FF1 Knight, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna
Team Magic vs. Chaz, Wren, Rika and Rune

[DjinnAndTonic]

Pass for Snowfire. I think Celes manages to pull him through most of the troublesome situations. Especially down with Vanish->Doom hype against bosses.

Pass for Team Shadow Hearts. I think the comboing system and Stock Guage abuse is enough to tilt the iffy matches in their favor. Also, those buffs are more effective than I realized. Interesting.

Fail for Team OK. Kinda sad how quickly Rikku got overwhelmed there.

Abstain on Team Hatbot.

[Monkeyfinger]

Dhyer, Ally OD mode is "get 4% gauge just for getting a turn"

Questionable legality for floor 2 and such, but I allow it, and you don't seem to realize what I've even been getting at.

[SnowFire]

Dhyerwolf: On the SO2 Wisemen fight: Ah, higher boss HP respect than me, I see.  Fair enough.  I assume you also let Vesper's MP drain hit Grandia SP?  Also, as a reminder, Red will be sneaking in extra turns when opponents use MT nukes by getting limits.

On Zeal / Miguel: Well, there's a Full Heal coming up after this fight, so if it'll finish Miguel off, Strago is probably willing to Grand Train and then just eat Zeal's arm MP-0 counter.  Zeal alone is not really a threat so long as even one person has MT healing to deal with Hallation since her non-Hallation offense is bad.  So Miguel should fall a bit faster than going strictly ST would indicate.

On the Patriarch / Orgulla fight...  Ricardo has a status immunity song for everybody but him.  True, I believe it goes away if somebody dies, but Patriarch + Eryu-Orgulla can't really kill anyone with damage short of waiting for the boost gauge to naturally fill up.  So Poison / Slow isn't really a threat.  (Plus, it's a 45% chance of Poison being added on her attacks anyway.  And then she has to do it again to get the H-Poison, which does the really good damage.  And I have a pile of status curing.)  As for Orgulla's speed buff...  as noted in my writeup, the problem is that Celes has Dispel and will spam that on Orgulla every turn.  Eryu-Orgulla roughly doubles average with no buff, and triples post-buff...  but...  if she's spending one out of every of her 2.5 turns a round re-casting the buff, she's only getting 1-2 rounds of offense off at the cost of Celes losing her turn.  And Celes will be Galed or Hasted to help keep up.  Better to just stick with 2 natural turns of offense a round.  Problem is that without the Poison stacking on damage, Eryu's offense just kind of sucks.  350 damage to 1300 avg. HP is .27 PCHP.  Twice a round is .54 PCHP single target.  Or she can go with her MT attack of .15 PCHP, or .30 PCHP a round.  That's easily and cheaply healed off as well.  Ricardo can play the MP-regen song too for a long fight.  If you let Osmose work on XS2 bosses, then Celes will never run out of MP at least, and can spam Life3.

Orgulla's better off going with Manes, where she can at least disrupt my team's buffing game by killing a person a round.

[dude789]

A note about SH speed buffs, looking over the buffs I realized something, if you throw out the fusions for average speed (which the stat topic does), the SH cast has a very very tight average speed range. The spread of speeds is 9 points (73 for Kurando to 64 for Gepetto) as a result, the SD is very very small so a 33% speed buff ends up boosting you up something like 5 SDs. This seems a bit excessive seeing as that is clearly not the effect the speed buffs had in game. Furthermore, if characters can be boosted up with the speed buff, than that also means that direct stat debuffs should effect them just as much. So the PS4 team will be doing something like Quadra Turning Magics after Illusion if you go by SDs.

Also if you go by SD then Magic's team loses the first fight as Nash splits Blanca and Ricardo's turns. He puts Yuri/Shania, Ricardo, and Lucia to sleep taking away their turns and Mia/Alex blow up the team with uninterrupted MT attacks. 

[Magic Fanatic]

A note about SH speed buffs, looking over the buffs I realized something, if you throw out the fusions for average speed (which the stat topic does), the SH cast has a very very tight average speed range. The spread of speeds is 9 points (73 for Kurando to 64 for Gepetto) as a result, the SD is very very small so a 33% speed buff ends up boosting you up something like 5 SDs. This seems a bit excessive seeing as that is clearly not the effect the speed buffs had in game. Furthermore, if characters can be boosted up with the speed buff, than that also means that direct stat debuffs should effect them just as much. So the PS4 team will be doing something like Quadra Turning Magics after Illusion if you go by SDs.

Also if you go by SD then Magic's team loses the first fight as Nash splits Blanca and Ricardo's turns. He puts Yuri/Shania, Ricardo, and Lucia to sleep taking away their turns and Mia/Alex blow up the team with uninterrupted MT attacks.

Back up.

The reason we use SDs is so we can convert Turn-based systems into a CTB system for easier turn order.  Shadow Hearts 2 and 3 are ALREADY CTB systems, thus don't use SDs.

In any case, if Blanca and Ricardo are going before Nash now, Blanca can just Arc Gale people and Ricardo uses Meteor Shower for status immunity to the party, which completely nullifies the Sleep strategy.

EDIT: This is ignoring the fact that Evil Crest (which Blanca, Ricardo, and Lucia all have) has that HUGE range I was talking about, easily dropping Mia and Alex's Special attack power by 36%.  Makes it go from deadly to survivable.

Also being ignored is Ricardo's innate Fire-element, dropping both Flameria's and RDA's damage by 25% further.

EDIT2: Keep in mind that Blanca and Ricardo are close enough in speed, so if you see Blanca overturning a Nash turn, then Arc Gale will make Ricardo go before Nash as well.

Also, (de)buffs should reflect the game they're from, not who they affect.  Saying that Rika's Illusion makes TG Cid from FFT get septa-turned or whatever seems wrong, since YOU WILL NEVER DOUBLE ENEMIES IN PS4 NATURALLY, EVEN WITH THAT.  Having Haste and Slowed enemies in FFT, however, is entirely arguable for getting triple turns.

EDIT3: Also hahahaha Entrance can be comboed from, the PS4 team is SCREWED (just tested this).  There is no need for a Double for Gale, just a combo straight into Yuri's turn for an unresisted Entrance'd For the Children.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Team OK (Grrrl Power) | Rikku, Purim, Kyra, Yukiko, Rena

[Floor 2a: The Crumbling Ruin (Earlygame)]
Team OK vs. Flay and Nikki
Team OK vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team OK vs. Opera and Ernest
Team OK vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)
Team OK vs. Locke, Karn, Zidane and Vyse - Of all things, I think team OK takes it worst from the Mana Khemia fight. I think Rikku's good status shit starts to show up only by floor 3, and while she could do some solid buffing all-around, having no revival just yet just means these guys -will- focus on people to get them down one by one. Nikki by herself has pretty good odds of even downing one of the girls before they get their first turn (Bear ID+the threat of Quick on -that- speed ain't pretty, and she's faster than Rikku first turn!). Ah well.

Team Tal-Hatbot | White Wizard (DoS), Nash, Borya (Brey), Momo (With Enemy Skills) Angelo, Nall
[Floor 3a: A Singlet]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, are single target for this floor and may be targetted regardless of original conditions.
Team Hatbot vs. Chris, Rody (Firefly Rune (Not Sealstone)), Alanis and Melville
Team Hatbot vs. Kiryl and Angelo
Team Hatbot vs. Flora (WoZ)
Team Hatbot vs. Atma Weapon
*Full Heal
Team Hatbot vs. Dario and Miguel - Silent Lake on the first fight. Tally-chu hates the universe forever and evermore. This floor is mean against mages.


Team Snowfire | Celes, Feena, Red XIII, Strago (Neo Speed), Ricardo
[Celes: Kirin (M), Siren (M) Shoat, Unicorn, Phantom, ZoneSeek, Tritoch, Phoenix] [Feena: All Eggs]
[Floor 6a: Underachievers]
Team Snowfire vs. Largo, Sync, Legretta and Asch - Okay, time to actually pay attention. Celes borderline solos the TotA losers (lololol vanish/elemental walling) and they're utterly, utterly inept at high HP. Not an issue.
Team Snowfire vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper - Ricardo doing some buffing probably neuters the threat of the Wisemen. Feena+Celes+Red should manhandle Vesper at worst, too.
Team Snowfire vs. Miguel and Queen Zeal - Oooh, dicier. But I fail to see why couldn't the team just focus on killing Miguel first. Zeal is a total loser when she's not MT spoiling and hitting half HP range.
*Full Heal*
Team Snowfire vs. Zio, Zera Valmar and Mohs - Okay, now this is kinda dicy. Between Zio MT and Zera+Mohs, they can pick apart two people per turn. On the other hand, Ricardo slows -this- down and he's faster than non-Zera. Mohs is also pretty trashy and Zera is like 70% PC HP. >_> May work.
Team Snowfire vs. Patriarch and Orgulla (XS2) - Sure. There's just enough buffing and elemental walling here for Snowfire to be able to handle these guys. ALSO STRAGO CAN RIPPLER ORGULLA'S QUICK GOMGOMGOM


Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia  (Synergy)
[Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"]
Team Magic vs. Alex, Jessica, Kyle, Nash and Mia - Okay, this is actually pretty complicated. Assuming Shania+Yuri constantly get hit by Sleep (viable), Ricardo plays off the buffing game, Blanca MT statusheals and Lucia can augment this game... but they're not making a ton of headway here and spending resources nobody's healing just keeping this up. Mia+Kyle alone are pretty good at setting up danger situations of "heal or Alex kills you" and Jessica has no problems patching single people up or mitigating a single member offensive pileup. But I don't think they're -good enough- to stop the team from keeping afloat eventually, unless the fight runs longer than 13 turns or so, in which case Berserk problems start showing up and Magic may not be able to afford that much SP healing. Pressure strong. But sure, let's say the team makes this fight.
Team Magic vs. Jude, Raquel, Arnaud, Yulie and Kresnik - Not really a huge problem. The whole team being entirely ST does suck and they -have- to keep Raquel from getting a turn (75 FP off the bat guyze watch the Intrudes fly like the wind), but that ain't too terribly difficult with Stock.
Team Magic vs. Dart, Rose, Albert, Miranda, Kongol and Haschel - Elemental weaknesses make this pretty easy too.
Team Magic vs. FF1 Knight, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna - Now, this gets increasingly dicier. Team Magic utterly -blows- at killing Terra because of the durability/elemental spoiling combo she's got going and she MT OHKOs the universe with Morph Ultima. Cecil and Yuna both can revive Terra just to keep the pressure going, and Yuna can (a) Shell Terra so they almost essentially can't kill her before getting a turn because their offense is almost all either magic or elemental (the basic physicals hit her evade and pdur and aren't enough either)/ (b) OHKO Yuri/Shania with Holy, which deflates the team offense considerably. Not good.
Team Magic vs. Chaz, Wren, Rika and Rune - The real nail on the coffin: I allow Illusion/Saner to have an effect immediately - turns being decided before the actions pan out feel like a property of TB systems to me, and otherwise the buffs apply to the stat immediately (the party gets the evade buff as soon as it's up in PS4, for instance). Thus, Rika Illusions/Saners and MT slaughter ensues. This floor 7 is pure, inadultered evil and I'm not sure you can even touch it if you don't have absolutely godlike MT status or offense running off Rika-or-better speed. I'm pretty sure the floor needs some rebalancing anyhow (Terra of the MT OHKO -and- PS4 teams? eeeeeeeeeeeeeew).

[dude789]

Back up.

The reason we use SDs is so we can convert Turn-based systems into a CTB system for easier turn order.  Shadow Hearts 2 and 3 are ALREADY CTB systems, thus don't use SDs.

In any case, if Blanca and Ricardo are going before Nash now, Blanca can just Arc Gale people and Ricardo uses Meteor Shower for status immunity to the party, which completely nullifies the Sleep strategy.

EDIT: This is ignoring the fact that Evil Crest (which Blanca, Ricardo, and Lucia all have) has that HUGE range I was talking about, easily dropping Mia and Alex's Special attack power by 36%.  Makes it go from deadly to survivable.

Also being ignored is Ricardo's innate Fire-element, dropping both Flameria's and RDA's damage by 25% further.

EDIT2: Keep in mind that Blanca and Ricardo are close enough in speed, so if you see Blanca overturning a Nash turn, then Arc Gale will make Ricardo go before Nash as well.

Also, (de)buffs should reflect the game they're from, not who they affect.  Saying that Rika's Illusion makes TG Cid from FFT get septa-turned or whatever seems wrong, since YOU WILL NEVER DOUBLE ENEMIES IN PS4 NATURALLY, EVEN WITH THAT.  Having Haste and Slowed enemies in FFT, however, is entirely arguable for getting triple turns.

EDIT3: Also hahahaha Entrance can be comboed from, the PS4 team is SCREWED (just tested this).  There is no need for a Double for Gale, just a combo straight into Yuri's turn for an unresisted Entrance'd For the Children.

Blanca and Ricardo are not both going before Nash using SDs. Blanca is +1.3 SD Nash is +1.29. The difference between the two is very, very, very slight.  The speed average for SH3 is also a point below what it should be because it counts all three of Hildas forms instead of using an average of her three forms so everyone is a bit slower than the stat topic indicates.

Alright, if you don't think SDs are needed for CT based games like SH than stop doing things like hyping Lucia as being 190% after Gale. I'm assuming that Dhyer's topic uses SD for calculating speed after buffs and fusions because I really can't see how else he was able to calculate 94 compared to a 68 average as 190% average speed.

Finally, you're saying that Illusion should be taken as it is in game, but at the same time hyping Gale as letting you instantly double average characters, this is not how speed works in SHs which as far as I'm aware is a rather linear. Arc Gale is a good spell in game because it lets you get around 4 turns for every 3 of the enemy and that's a good advantage, but it's not as gamebreaking as you are making it out to be.

[Nephrite]

Just as a Note: I really hope no one takes Vanish-Doom seriously in the Dungeon.

EDIT: Oh and Jo'ou, Silent Lake would only get one person due to the ST floor's way of handling things. (I mean Chris can just Silent Lake Nash or whatever, just sayin)

EDIT2: Dhyer, Rody just has the Firefly Rune, not the Wall Rune too.