Author Topic: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition  (Read 238081 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2075 on: October 15, 2012, 06:52:41 AM »
That logic does indeed make perfect sense.

(We'll ignore that I'd take most Mario platformers over said Bowser RPG anyway.)

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Maybe.

SnowFire

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2076 on: October 15, 2012, 08:08:17 AM »
Ys Origin: Hugo Hard finished.  (Finished Yunica Normal earlier.)  Fun stuff for all that I think I like Oath in Felghana combat better.  It's too bad that the super-influential levels means that difficulty level is to some extent a matter of annoyance - rushing to a boss on a Normal is equivalent to grinding a little on Hard, and grinding some on Normal is equivalent to a bit of over-grinding on Hard.  It's not good if your difficulty level is secretly a proxy for "test player's patience at grinding," for all that most of the bosses I didn't have to go hardcore grind mode on.  (Also, as usual, it'd have been nicer if the regular enemies were a tad harder.)

I did like how they mixed up who lived and who died between routes, as well as the plot boss fights, for all that as usual Ys plot is a trainwreck.  (The Black Pearl buried on the surface?  I guess, but we find it in flying Ys later...  also WTF Toal in the Hugo path.  Dramatic and all sure but sense not it makes. Except as far as anime dark horse paint-by-numbers I guess.)  Also, Hugo's line is "corrupted" or some crap?!  Bah, that manages to make the Ys I villain even lamer since we could have assumed he was just power-hungry or something before.  Well, equally as stupid as the idea that all descendents of the 6 priests are automatically do-gooder heroes I guess.  Could make for an awkward conversation I suppose.

Hugo: Just so you know, Yunica, I think that due to my actions this game, my great x19 grandson might kill your great x19 granddaughter.  But it's cool, your great x19 grandson will survive as a do-gooder thief or something.
Yunica: 'k.

On the bright side, the fact that Hugo persistently ignored the annoying clingy Miuscha was a minor saving grace.  Hugo also got to play the SH Yuri role of mocking everyone who got in his way, so that wasn't bad either.


Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together: Complete.  Well, finished, anyway, since there's other paths & sidequests & wtf did everyone in Port Omish just attack Denam & Canopus INCLUDING THE OCTOPI WHAT.  Pretty fun, for all that the game absolutely has...  idiosyncrasies.  Crafting, leveling, FAQ-bait recruitment, and MP being the most obvious examples.  Also probably gets my award for most improved remake ever that was an authentic remake rather than something totally new with the same name...  largely due to Tactics Ogre PSX being unplayable and all, but TO PSP is authentically good while adhering to a lot of the original TO's ideas and plot.

Anyway, final sequence was at a pretty good challenge level via charging it immediately and skipping any further sidequests - I think you're supposed to be lvl. 22 when you start and lvl. 23 when you get to the end, but I did lvl. ~20 at the start and lvl. ~21 at the end, so the enemies could actually hurt me, but I could still hurt them too (as opposed to the super-underlevel Ozma recruitment side-mission where doing damage was a struggle).  Luckily I'd been warned that the Hanging Gardens were huge and stocked up on items.  The penultimate fight was fantastic and fun, and something I wish more tactical games did.  Frue final was practically immune to physicals but when he's outnumbered 12 on 1, just throwing special moves at him still took him down reasonably fast.  Who needs stupid Lombardia anyway, should have left it at the sanctum in the hopes that Diablo 3 logic would apply ("Take up your sword, warrior!  This will restore your memory for true!").

I will say that it's too bad that the only way to really safely challenge yourself is to do sidequests out of order / charge the endgame.  It's not too hard to intentionally stay at low level if you want in FFT - use new generics at worst - but you can't even really do that in TO, at least if you want to use the same class but at lower level.  Not a super-huge fan of how challenging yourself with difficult fights dramatically ups your potential money spend, and just how stupidly awesome Field Alchemy is, but whatever.

Canopus gets MVP forever, act shocked.  After that, anyone in the Archer class.  After that, who cares distract the enemy and heal yourselves.  Final party:
Denam - Warrior (sword & shield).  Tanky, never was incapacitated, but not particularly damaging except when Rending Gale goes off.
Hobyrim & Arycelle - Archers.  (And earlier, Sara + 2 generics as well, of course.  If I wanted to cheese more I'd probably deploy 4 archers rather than 1-2.)
Ravness - Valkyrie, actually.  White Knight didn't offer enough of a stat edge and was notably slower.
Sherri - Enchantress since Witch was lvl. 1 and I'd already leveled Wizard with a generic.
Canopus, Jeunan, Vyce, Mirdyn, Olivya, Ozma, Catiua - In their unique classes.  Mirdyn was first on the chopping block if anything needed to be cut later on, White Knight was a total disappointment.

Divine Magic on non-Wizard/Witches (Knights, Valkyries, etc.) seems like an obvious slam-dunk.  Even Ozma has some trouble breaking MDef despite her nutty stats, Ravness is pretty well guaranteed to do 1 damage with her spells, so I'll take some ranged healing instead, thanks.

--
Anyway, time for plotty stuff based on a Law playthrough.  SPOILERS as usual.  Also willing to throw the game some slack since it's obviously trying to respect the SNES game, and sometimes you need to bend the plot to have an excuse for a battle (see: why did Mr. Noble Galgastani Knight fight you and die rather than just join up, or surrender, or something), and Matsuno is a cool guy.  Still...

Denam after sticking Versalia on the throne for her thousand year reich:



I was fine with Catiua early on, because it felt like she was just a pessimist about the prospects of the Walister and skeptical of steel solving all problems while still being loyal to her younger brother.  If they'd come up with some kind of political reason for her actions in late Chapter 3 / early Chapter 4, that'd have been fine.  Instead, the game seems to explicitly say that this is all Catiua's revenge against Denam for, in her mind, leaving her, thus how do YOU like it now.  Plus there's a dab of "screw you adoptive dad you're not blood anyway and don't count" which makes her just awful.  All this makes her fine as a villain!  But bah, the game massively lets her off the hook if you spare her.  I do not think she is going to make a very good Queen.

I found the dropping of the whole New Walister Alliance plotline in C3-C4 both understandable and realistic, if a bit of a missed opportunity, considering how C4 is largely the same across playthroughs.  Sure, the NWA was founded in like 6 weeks or something by Vyce (ah video game plots), and thus we can assume it's got strong respect for its leadership, so if Vyce is sold that they have to work with Denam's old resistance, I can buy that they'd sign up.  It just gets weirder when the anti-nobility movement ends up warring to stick Catiua on the throne if the plot goes that way.  And then Vyce gets to be addressed as "Lord Bozeck" in the end.  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  Like I said, realistic considering how these movements normally go, but a bit of a shame.

It was interesting that the game lets Lanselot T. / Volaq / Balxephon off the hook and denies you a big final confrontation with them.  This takes some bravery in the script writing, although this is partially Lans being a bit of an evil Gary Stu.  Still, it seemed to fit with Lans being portrayed as cautious, although this leaves Hobyrim / Ozma's plotline massively hanging.  But it also helps make it feel like a more realistic world, where you don't always get to do your destined revenge confrontations.  That said...

..wtf was Lans T. doing here anyway?  He encourages Brantyn to *not* rein in the rest of Valeria, which is a little weird since if he's the regent he should have retained at least nominal control elsewhere, but just to stay in Bakram lands.  He brings along Brynhildr.  But as pointed out, he makes the Dark Knights spend all their time looking for Mannaflora, Abuna Prancet, and Versalia.  Theoretically Versalia could have done, uh, something involving Dorgalua's legacy.  (Unlock the Chaos Gate?  That seems unlikely, *Brantyn* was the one who presumably could have done it after Dorgalua left.)  But as pointed out by Martym, they didn't need her anyway even if she could have helped; the stolen Xenobian sword was sufficient.  Okay, so I take this to mean that Lans T. wasn't interested in Dorgalua's legacy after all, fine, that sounds sane (and is an interesting double cover - no, the real reason I'm here is the obvious one).  So... was he just here to establish a government friendly to Lodis after the civil war faded?  And he thought that Catiua was the best method of doing so, but Brantyn favored the Elhanama (sp?) puppet we never see?  I guess.  If you kill Catiua Lanselot calls her the only hope for peace in the isles before running off, so I guess the theory was that if Lodis plain conquered the isles and propped up Brantyn as a puppet, there'd be endless unrest or something.  But expecting Catiua to be a compliant puppet, even given her behavior in late C3 / early C4, seems a lot to ask as well.  Also, if you didn't want Dorgalua's legacy, don't bring the freakin' stolen sword here!  Go stick it in the ultra-secure magical artifacts storage wing of Loslorien or something.  And don't mislead your subordinates either.

On that note.  Villain plots, forbidden dark power, pick 2, but I'm still a little confused on what exactly Andoras / Barbas / Martym / all the flunkies they convinced to work with them rather than Lans T. saw in the Chaos Gate.  I don't see any indication they had any way to really control that power, or find some magic artifact, or anything.  They just had a gate to Hell.  Fantastic.  You can go, uh, visit, and possibly get killed, or maybe turned into an Ogre.  At least Dorgalua had a vaguely sane goal: see my dead family.  Unless these 3 actually wanted to get turned into ravening monsters?  That doesn't strike me as tremendously appealing even to a villain.  You want to HARNESS the forbidden dark energies not be consumed by 'em and all.

For Lanselot H., it's kind of odd how much Denam seems touched by him in the ending, he's not really around Denam all that much.  It's inspiring that a foreign war hero decided to help his cause, of course, despite the ulterior motive, but eh.  Also, why does Denam act like he's dead in the ending?  Warren is maybe dead, sure, but remember when you found Lans at that sanitarium?  Helllllllllo?

I'd also like to nominate Regent Brantyn as the unsung hero of the game, at least assuming he was the "trusted lieutenant" left behind to unseal the Chaos Gate to let Dorgalua back in.  HMM, crazy mission to hell to resurrect family from a megalomaniac who constructed a giant floating garden at tremendous expense, should I let him return?  How about no.

Also, I'd like to point something out.  Dorgalua reigned for 50 years of peace according to the opening movie, after conquering Valeria.  Afterward, civil war raged for at least some time...  2 years, let's say.  Let's say Dorgalua was crowned king at 25 - that's a pretty fast conquest and that's still pretty young to lead an army, but hey, Napoleon did it at a pretty young age too.  Catiua is 19 as the game starts.  That means Dorgalua had Catiua at 25+50+2-19 = ~58 years old.  I see.  (Also, Dorgalua would have been 75 when he hobbled off on his mad quest to Hell.  I suppose fathers outliving their sons is pretty tragic, but at that age, assuming the Queen was remotely in the same age range, the Queen's death shouldn't have been all that shocking, at least.)

Grefter

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2077 on: October 15, 2012, 09:38:44 AM »

Player.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2078 on: October 15, 2012, 09:49:39 AM »
Sounds like you might be Marioed out and now is the perfect time to start a tactics game about Aliens.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2079 on: October 15, 2012, 09:37:25 PM »
Is new X-Com fundamentally still the same turn-based system, or did they do the RTS thing to it?

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Dark Souls: got impatient waiting for DLC, started up a new character to get ready for it (okay, a couple new characters). Did you know that they actually animated two-handed/charging/leaping/plunging attacks for shields? I did not actually know this until a Darkwraith encounter devolved in a dual-shield deathmatch. It was the dumbest thing and also the greatest thing to happen to me in PVP in this game (edges out the Darkwraith that gave me a full black knight set and the titanite/souls to max it out right after Taurus Demon, because--while awesome--that also made the game stupidly easy).

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Saint's Row 3: forgot to mention I finished this. So yeah, I finished this. It wasn't the most ridiculous thing I've ever played (because Bayonetta exists) but it certainly made an effort to be. Can you name another game that lets you go on a crime spree with Burt Reynolds and Hulk Hogan? I cannot. It went down pretty easy for being mindless nonsense. Also the endless checklists of things to do piqued my completionist impulses in order to overcome my natural resistance to media about glorying in criminal activities. So much so that before I'd done more than a chapter's worth of plot missions, I was dual-wielding submachinegunes that set people on fire and made cars explode and had infinite ammo. Which wasn't nearly as unfortunate as being immune to all types of damage except melee. Fun, but I don't need to play anything else like this for a long time.

I can't decide whether the side missions of consequence-free violence were some meta-commentary on GTA or not. One would assume not since this is a game that asks you to hijack a boat full of hookers stashed in storage containers, but then again, they did reference Idiocracy twice in trophy titles.

Grefter

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2080 on: October 15, 2012, 09:49:56 PM »
It is a big budget AAA title cross platform getting a big marketting push Cid.  What do you think? 

In spite of that it is Turn Based.  I have no idea who green lighted this and what they had to do to make it happen, but it makes me so very very happy.  Best of all, it is really good!  It probably sits in that highly lethal phase at the start of the game longer than the original, but I also think troop death is a touch less likely (also more meaningful to be fair).  So take that as you will, but I do strongly suggest picking it up at release to show support for this kind of game if it interests you.

X-Com - So I was pleased at first with the reduced more abstract health pools and damage scales at first, but it does make combat at the start of the game highly lethal.  Now that we have a bit of armour floating around see that taking damage in health provided by armour prevents you from having to go to hospital I like it even more.  It does make Medkits weird as hell though.  "Oh you got shot in the armour?  Let me just spray this WD40 on you.  Oh you got shot in the shoulder?  Let me spray some WD40 on that as well."

I have also come to have a greater appreciation for using Snipers in Overwatch since you can plonk them on it, move your other guys in, if you spot enemies and they auto move then your sniper can take them out quite easily.  Watching Floater corpses go flying because of this will not get old.

Also fun game for me is picking what the aliens are when we first meet them.  Going 2 for 3 with picking Mutons and Chrysalids.   Now with some distance on them, I kind of like Chrysalid design in this.  They were scary in the base mission, but no where near as much so as in Terror Missions.  Give them a pool of Civilians to work with and they can be terrifying, but in Base Missions they only have your units to work with, so correct application of cover and support brings them down just fine.

Mutons on the other hand hooooooly fuck you want to be invested in weapon upgrades before you encounter them.  They soak bullet weapon damage like a sponge.  They don't have a resistance like they did in the original, just huge health pools.  Bumping up to Laser weapons will let you 2 shot them compared to the 3 or 4 shot kills we had first mission.

I was on the fence about using two snipers like my brother is preferring, but it works quite well.  2 Assault as well.  Assaults are absolutely amazing at what they do.  I feel my brothers personally could work a bit more on using Run and Gun more defensively to get into position, but whatever we are getting by.  Bad habit to sit on cooldowns purely for offensive maneuvers when mixed with Lightning Reflexes can let you run them to defensive positions with impunity nearly.  Sprint to a hiding place to scout and provide cover in one turn?  Fantastic.

Even the talents I am putting a fair bit of thought into them.  Some of them seemed no brainers at first, Sniper you want the one to pick enemy targets that your other units can see, you want the higher ground one etcetc by default.  Now with a bit more use, being able to move and fire with a Sniper is pretty useful, but it relegates them to more defensive support role.  Also 2 more Pistol damage would push your baseline pistol into the same damage range as the basic rifle.  With that it makes a far more useful backup weapon (I think I am actually favoring this overall, but Snipers all well past that choice by now and brothers like the higher ground one, which IS a significant boost when it comes into play).
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Captain K.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2081 on: October 15, 2012, 10:00:46 PM »
Dota 2:  Trying this out.  I have never played a MOBA-style game before, so naturally I am amazing at this.  <_<  >_>

It seems pretty cool, but at the same time it seems like if you want to get any good at it you must play this game for your entire life and not play anything else ever.  So I probably won't mess with it for very long.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2082 on: October 16, 2012, 12:08:42 AM »
Do you have skeleton armor yet Gref? Makes the higher ground bonus even more useful.

Grefter

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2083 on: October 16, 2012, 02:13:23 AM »
We do not have Batman armour.  I want to give it to an Assault so they can jump through all the windows everywhere.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2084 on: October 16, 2012, 03:01:52 AM »
The Assault trooper I use as a point man just developed psi powers.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2085 on: October 16, 2012, 06:10:16 AM »
OGRE PLOT-

Lodis is not in one piece.
Factions here and there all have their own agenda.
From Lans T.'s point of view, despite he was given the mission to unlock Chaos Gate, he never found that to be a good idea. Partially Lans T.'s own fault too. He removed those who he does not want to be around from power, but those left in power are not too smart.
Catiua's only value is that she is Dorgalua's daughter. No matter which scenario you choose, none expects her to actually function as a queen. Her complete disregard of the nation's well being actually made her a even better puppet.
Lans T. kind of just want to let that matter on Chaos Gate slip by, while setting up Catiua as the new queen. And then the Island is good as Lodis's without making a big deal out of everything.
At least, having Lodis's full army storming down is not Lans T.'s ideal scenario. He does not want the matter to expand out of Loslorien's direct control.

Ozma will eventually confronts a similar situation. After all, she prefer the current system of Lodis that Lans T. had set up, but she certainly don't like how Lans T. kept that system going after she finds out how she does things. She has to put up with Lans T. to a certain degree if she wants to current system in Lodis to continue.

Fenrir

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2086 on: October 16, 2012, 03:44:40 PM »
Shocking everybody: X-com really looks like Western Fire Emblem. Turnbased SRPG gameplay, Permadeath, very low numbers to make the math easy, positioning mattering more than in an usual SRPG, fog of war, same RNG. Main difference being the inter-mission management

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2087 on: October 16, 2012, 04:39:27 PM »
That is the first description of X-Com that's actually made me want to try it. Talking about the new one, or the older ones here?
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2088 on: October 16, 2012, 04:48:21 PM »
New one, I don't know anything about the older ones.

Since it's -Western- Fire Emblem though, perfect-face anime characters are replaced with dudebros.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2089 on: October 16, 2012, 04:57:21 PM »
As usual, your use of "western" is easily replaced with "better in every way."

Meeplelard

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2090 on: October 16, 2012, 05:17:14 PM »
Rob, if I can have a simple request...

Please keep such statements to yourself.  If you want to say something like "it's these details that make me prefer western games over eastern ones", then that's cool.  Simply making blatant stabs at games in that manner though?  Few actually find that amusing, and continually doing so will only annoy people.


That said...

Pokemon Black 2:  Caught Eevee!  Huzzah! Now to make it a Leafeon and-...

*sees both Razor Leaf and Grass Whistle will require move relearner*

...:(

I guess he can use Return/Strength, and some other move until then, but that's disappointing.  Might change plans entirely and go with like Jolteon or Umbreon or something (already used Espeon in XD, so yeah, specifically avoiding that.  Glaceon doesn't interest me, Flareon = lulz, and I chose Oshawott, so Vaporeon seems kind of redundant...that and I've used Vaporeon in the past plenty anyway.)
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2091 on: October 16, 2012, 05:31:57 PM »
Meeple, at this point just chill. Rob's comment was no different than the smart-assness that either myself, Grefter, or any number of other DLers would use.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2092 on: October 16, 2012, 05:38:34 PM »
New one, I don't know anything about the older ones.

Since it's -Western- Fire Emblem though, perfect-face anime characters are replaced with dudebros.

Firaxis's hands were tied as soon as they licensed the Unreal engine. If it were used to render an attractive male human, someone at Epic Games might catch "teh gay." :P

Character designs aside, I think XCOM is better at everything it does in common with Fire Emblem. The one exception is weapon balance - unlike in FE, or the original X-Com, there isn't any. Each tier of weaponry is strictly better, rather than there being tradeoffs. It's surprising since so much of the game is based around making tough choices.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2093 on: October 16, 2012, 07:53:50 PM »
I got the impression that X-Com was closer in most ways to Valkyria myself.  Which fits in with my general feeling of "it looks good but I'm not sure I'd ever sit down and finish it" towards the game.

Although I gotta say, from what I've seen the majority of the game is fog-of-war, which is another major turnoff (and probably why the game is amazingly lethal)
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2094 on: October 16, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
I got the impression that X-Com was closer in most ways to Valkyria myself.  Which fits in with my general feeling of "it looks good but I'm not sure I'd ever sit down and finish it" towards the game.

The original X-Com is closer to Valkyria (or, well, vice versa), albeit its lethality is at and indeed above Fire Emblem levels. The new one, with its smaller squads and shorter engagement ranges, falls somewhere in between, although it's probably still fair to say it's closer to Valkyria than Fire Emblem.
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2095 on: October 16, 2012, 09:24:05 PM »
Hmm... a quick google search of XCOM art shows that it's not bad in a vacuum. I wish I could say it looked that good in-game, but the actual design concepts are solid. They even manage to design female characters that aren't horrible stereotypes or pinup dolls! The dudebros are still particularly ugly though. I think western game designers just have an innate aversion to men who aren't grotesque. There's probably some sort of subconscious projection going on. Or perhaps a fully-conscious choice to avoid criticism of wish-fulfillment? Not sure. At any rate, it's certainly a trade-off if we're comparing Western and Japanese art design choices. If Fire Emblem is the counterpoint to XCOM here, then I'd have to say that FE still definitely wins in the art department. They also tend to avoid cheesecake, have good proportioning, and have a pretty diverse cast (particularly in FE10), and actually manage to have some attractive male characters. Also, FE uses enough map abstraction that I can actually see what's going on, whereas XCOM lighting makes me want to punch babies. *shrugs* Really, in this case, by "Western", I mean "Worse in every way".

Still, I like this new XCOM more than most WRPGs.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2096 on: October 16, 2012, 09:50:23 PM »
Edit phone posting is fun!  randomly click done, post halfway through.

For what it is worth as much as I am loath to say it the comparison to FE does work to a degree for the original.  It is one I have made is the past in that it is tactically deep with a very limited range of abilities (you are limited to movement, crouching and shooting).  It is a game changer mid way through that you add an extra kind of movement part way through.  Edit - Also not saying to go out and jump straight into the original.  I love it, but you need to note that there is some strategic choices with base building, money management, research and engineering piled on top of the fun tactical missions and that can get in the way.  This specifically is why I honestly straight up promote cheating for money and just doing whatever the fuck on that part of the game if you are playing it for the strategy.  All that does is eliminate on part of the gameplay that is honestly easy and is mostly just jumping through hoops while enabling more options to both do more of and gives you more options on those missions.

It frustrates and doesn't surprise me that it took a comparison like that to get people interested.  I was saying to Ciato that I really don't have the language to describe why the new one is so good because all I can do is describe it in terms of what is different and raw functionality.  I don't have the distance to even describe core gameplay.  I hate that I can tell you in depth everything wrong with a game a bunch of people end up liking but I can't tell you what a good one is doing right.  Edit - Note: This is frustration at my inability to do things, not at others.

That said gods it is hard to get you guys to pay attention, how many years have I been describing SRPGs in terms of X-com or saying that it is one of if not the best game ever? 

Also wat at Dudebros not being hella homo.  Have you guys seen the Handle Bars these guys can be rocking?  Just because they are big muscle dudes doesn't mean there isn't an aesthetic they can have that informs you on the fact that these guys are balls on your chin gay.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 10:44:10 PM by Grefter »
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2097 on: October 16, 2012, 11:04:39 PM »
Quote
That said gods it is hard to get you guys to pay attention, how many years have I been describing SRPGs in terms of X-com or saying that it is one of if not the best game ever?

In fairness, it has less to do with the FE comparison than the fact that a friend of mine here in Florida was playing it and I liked what I saw. So really, there was nothing you could have said to make me more or less interested in the game, Gref. Not sure about the rest of the DL crew, though.

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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2098 on: October 16, 2012, 11:58:06 PM »
For what it is worth as much as I am loath to say it the comparison to FE does work to a degree for the original.  It is one I have made is the past in that it is tactically deep with a very limited range of abilities (you are limited to movement, crouching and shooting).  It is a game changer mid way through that you add an extra kind of movement part way through.

While I agree with this, Valkyria Chronicles is still a lot closer comparison than Fire Emblem for the original. Squad-based tactics game with a lot of emphasis placed on controlling lines of sight and effect to set up situations where your characters can attack but the enemy can't, limited range of abilities that are deep through combination. The biggest differences are 1. there's no meaningful strategic layer, 2. it's not as lethal, and 3. the broken strategy is Scouts instead of Psychics so the delay to get it is 0 battles.

If you play VC1 without scout-rushing maps the tactical elements are very much like a less lethal X-Com.

It frustrates and doesn't surprise me that it took a comparison like that to get people interested.  I was saying to Ciato that I really don't have the language to describe why the new one is so good because all I can do is describe it in terms of what is different and raw functionality.  I don't have the distance to even describe core gameplay.  I hate that I can tell you in depth everything wrong with a game a bunch of people end up liking but I can't tell you what a good one is doing right.  Edit - Note: This is frustration at my inability to do things, not at others.

In a case like XCOM it's hard not to describe it in terms of the original, because for people who played the original it defines so much of our expectations of a tactics game. It's like trying to describe a 4X game without referencing Civilization (or at least Alpha Centauri), or a T/RPG without referencing Final Fantasy Tactics. X-Com is the trope setter and (I'd say until the new one) the definitive example, so naturally our first instinct is to say how the new one is or isn't like it.

Now that the initial rush to play it EVERY AVAILABLE MOMENT is past I can take a shot at describing the new one without referencing the original, though.

I'm not going to bother repeating things you could get from a glance at the ad copy (it's a squad level tactics game with a strategic base management layer, and so on).

The tactical engine is fast without losing depth. Battles take about 45 minutes on average. The biggest reason they're compelling is that aside from turns taken advancing to contact every click has weight. A 4-on-4 firefight will leave somebody dead in one round, maybe 4 somebodies, maybe all on the same side. If that side is yours, you lost the mission and quite possibly the entire 30+ hour game. I never felt like I was powerless to determine which side suffered those casualties - RNG screw is possible, but at least on Normal and Classic it has to be extremely bad to keep you from mitigating it with good tactics.1

Everything in XCOM is geared toward forcing you to make hard, sometimes arbitrary choices. Do you build satellites now to keep panic down, knowing you'll lose more soldiers because you didn't invest in armor and weapons as quickly? Do you equip your soldiers for sustained survivability with medkids, protection against burst with nanoweave, offense with grenades or scopes, or risky but profitable and sometimes necessary live capture? Do you flank to ensure a kill but risk exposing your trooper to a flank attack from the enemy? Use explosives, potentially losing resources, to preserve the lives of your troops? Mass fire even if it means leaving cover? Fall back and try to lure the enemy into an overwatch trap? Or hope for a lucky shot or bad luck from the enemy, so you can keep the rest of your squad moving toward an objective?

In most games these would have obvious answers (and I suspect if some of the DL take a serious crack at the game they'll find they have right answers from a statistical perspective), but in play they are one interesting decision after another. The gold standard in (gamist) tabletop game design is "every turn, every action taken by every piece offers an interesting decision" and it applies to turn-based electronic games as well. XCOM Enemy Unknown doesn't quite hit that, but it comes as close as any game I've ever played.

1 The original X-Com ablated randomness with large squad sizes, which made it nearly impossible to get randomly screwed over - but it didn't offer that feeling of individual decisions being important. You had wiggle room, but the engine was wigglier in general and more things happened randomly.

Also wat at Dudebros not being hella homo.  Have you guys seen the Handle Bars these guys can be rocking?  Just because they are big muscle dudes doesn't mean there isn't an aesthetic they can have that informs you on the fact that these guys are balls on your chin gay.

Oh, it's not that the characters themselves can't be gay, or even gay stereotypes. It's that they are unlikely to make anyone write slash fiction about them. It takes a lot to make characters no one wants to write slash fiction about, but they do their damndest. ;)
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Re: What Games ya Playin' 2012 - Suplex a Train Edition
« Reply #2099 on: October 17, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »
I'll take "How does Fozzy Bear masturbate?" for $100, Alex.