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Author Topic: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!  (Read 38208 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #150 on: March 06, 2012, 04:27:00 PM »
http://extra-credits.net/episodes/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1/

This week's extra credits is relevant to this forum. They're discussing the differences between WRPGs and JRPGs and trying to come up with a clear definition. It's only part one of three, but the comments section is already talking, and most of the responses contain interesting thoughts on the subject. (And a surprisingly low number of trolls for the internet!)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #151 on: March 06, 2012, 05:34:55 PM »
Pretty interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with their thesis that genres are defined primarily by the emotions they seek to evoke from the player, though. Unlike movies, the mechanical way the player interacts with the game is crucially important as well.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #152 on: March 06, 2012, 05:56:53 PM »
I don't think the argument is about evoking emotions, but more about fulfilling a need the player seeks - Challenge, Discovery, etc.
Though notably, I've found that most games I enjoy tend to offer a multitude of these things so I find it hard to define a genre through this method. But I'm willing to wait and see what their final conclusion is.

A few of the commenters have made your same point, too. Actually, I've noticed that this particular episode is bringing in a LOT of first-time posters to EC.net ...it's good to know that there's a lot of people who are interested in the subject (or at least like to argue about it?).

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #153 on: March 06, 2012, 10:53:13 PM »
Well it's an interesting subject!

Anyway, as far as challenge/discovery/narrative/etc. goes, it's worth noting that many RPGs do a good job of some but not others. Suikoden V and Mega Man X Command Mission succeed at very different things as far as those are concerned (and it's safe to say I played them, and particularly replayed them, for different reasons), yet I don't think many people would argue they're in different genres.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #154 on: March 07, 2012, 02:33:40 AM »
As is the done thing, I was thinking of writing something on the topic of RPGs and people missing the point sometimes (the genre not necessarilly originating from actual Role Play since it roots from table top stuff which itself originated from war gaming and dungeon crawls.  Serious RP in RPGs was something they grew into).  Mostly inspired by the Extra Curricular podcast on the topic.

Then the main show started doing stuff and while not having that very point, vaguely touches on it noting that there is two roots to RPGs that we are drawing from and they are fairly diverse from each other.  I can wait to see what they have to say over the next 2 or 3 weeks because EC is fucking awesome.
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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #155 on: March 07, 2012, 03:30:47 PM »
Agreed. I found this subject pretty timely because of the ME3 bitching (its not an RPG anymore!), when RPG itself is... kind of an ill-defined genre that, in the modern age of gaming, is becoming a little outdated simply because of tech advancements allowing "RPG" elements to be included in more and more games.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #156 on: March 07, 2012, 09:52:33 PM »
If you are using genres very broadly (which we do), then RPG still isn't bad.  It captures a lot of the same overlaps as the source materials though.  There is a lot of the elements of the systems cribbed and tied together even in something like Mass Effect.  For a broad label they work.  For a label for the ripping out of a level up/stats system and throwing it into another genre, for now at least, the RPG Elements are still clearly sourcing from within the genre.  They don't define it, but they are kind of the credit given where it is due thing.  This is where these systems grew and matured.

It is the other parts that make up an RPG that earns the game the title though.  Fallout 3 is an RPG with FPS elements becaues it emphasises so many RPG concepts even as it distanced itself from the roots of its complex RPG systems.

The day we get a game you can clearly label an RPG that has none of the systems that are flagged as RPG Elements will be an exciting day indeed.

Part 2 is up for people who don't check it obsessively. http://extra-credits.net/episodes/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2/
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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #157 on: March 08, 2012, 02:28:57 AM »
While I'm not convinced I agree with their basic premise (that using game mechanics as the primary genre definition is wholly outdated), I'm glad the second part brought up the idea that one of the appeals for RPGs is the raising or powering up of characters.  I know one of the things that niggled in, say, KotOR was that while I did feel I was steadily getting better at dialogues, Force Persuasion, and the like, that I wasn't really getting appreciably better at combat.  It seemed like aside from the key levels that allowed me to get new levels of Force Push, levelling up was more or less frivolous on the combat side.

I know some of this is particular to KotOR (limited meaningful skill selection), but I also know that's one of the things JRPGs do in a more effective way.  I DO feel like my characters are getting stronger over the course of the game.  Even games with fairly limited customization and same-y skillsets (Dragon Quest comes to mind) still give a great sense of getting stronger and overcoming more powerful enemies as you go.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #158 on: March 08, 2012, 02:36:49 AM »
I don't feel like I'm making huge growths in power in KotOR or ME, but rather expanding my skill set (growing out more than up, if you will) but I would be much more confused if I did, considering that, for instance, ME1's character creation and intro boils down to you being a huge badass from "go."

I do feel FONV pulls this off pretty well though. Enemies like Veteran Rangers or Prime Legionaries are visually distinct and carry serious shit, and then there's the usual dudes in power armor/deathclaws. At the beginning you're spraying bullets from a 9mm hoping to hit, at the cap you take heads off at 50 paces with a Ranger Sequoia.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #159 on: March 08, 2012, 02:47:11 AM »
It's an appealing thing in general, certainly. (Heck, one of the reasons Chocobo Hot and Cold is so fun is the way the chocobo gradually gets faster, in concert with the player legitimately getting more skilled at the mechanical part of the game.) But it's certainly not remotely unique to RPGs. Games such as Zelda, Metroid, Devil May Cry, etc., all very much feature an improving player character statistically, facing increasingly tougher enemies.

Still, as they bring up in the second episode, very few other genres actively encourage the player to grind to get more powerful. In Metroid, Zelda, Castlevania, Mega Man X, Devil May Cry, etc., the main way to get more powerful is just to find secrets. Some do have grinding to some extent (red orbs in DMC, item drops in Castlevania) but it's more limited than in most RPGs. So it's probably fair to say that statistically powering up as the game goes on is a bit of an RPG hallmark even if it's not one of the definining traits of the genre. One could even argue it's a necessary condition to be an RPG, just not a sufficient one. No other genre -requires- this (some platformers have it, but not all. A few racing games, but certainly not all. Some FPS, but not all. etc.), RPGs pretty much do. I've never played an RPG where the characters are statistically static throughout the game, although it seems at least possible that one might exist.

I think one of the reasons that JRPGs have declined in popularity somewhat is that some of the reasons people play them (that aforementioned progression, but also narrative storytelling, and to some degree open-world exploration) have been adopted by other genres. So you have people who really never liked RPGs mechanically (we have one or two here!) who have seen these other games and moved on.

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Captain K.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #160 on: March 08, 2012, 03:23:22 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc6jdnmBo-4

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2012, 07:11:50 PM »
Fun little article, and links to replies, about whether or not Batman is morally obligated to kill the Joker.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/42595?page=all


As for the EC stuff, while they raise some interesting points, I can't see emotional investment really trumping the main method you interface with the game. Heck, in some ways, the traditional ways you interact with media don't matter so much as they do outside of games.

Phantasy Star 4 and Mass Effect both have sci-fi storylines where you go through death and loss while hopping from planet to planet in order to stop a threat to the whole galaxy that is coming from beyond the edges of reality.  But I'd sure as hell call Phantasy Star 4 closer to FF6 in terms of feel than it ever is to Mass Effect.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #162 on: March 08, 2012, 08:51:42 PM »
Well I don't think they are arguing that ME and PS4 should be lumped together like they are.  Mass Effect has a huge Discovery component to it with the planetary exploration and embracing the space setting.

Phantasy Star handles planets and space like they are different continents and there is nothing new to be seen on any of them.  They are just a tool to be leveraged in the narrative to tell a different compartmentalised story module.  Probably centered around revenge or how much better the blonde haired blue eyed guy is than everyone else is and how awesome the blue haired anime chick is.   Generally space and science are more like magic is in a sword and sorcery setting in PS than it is in ME.  Two genres that are both escapist genres but speak to very different parts of the human psyche.



So yeah, fairly different games even with my ghetto application of their logic.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #163 on: March 09, 2012, 02:32:20 AM »
Ugh... part 2 bugs me. They decided to go the direction of "Immersion=WRPG/Narrative=JRPG". And while I can see that in broad terms, their examples were things like "In a JRPG, your character has his/her own defined thoughts and personality, whereas YOU are the main character in a WRPG". This gives rise to the idea that RPGs from Japan with customizable/silent Protagonists are somehow WRPGs. Would Chrono Trigger be a WRPG, then? How about Persona 3? By this definition, POKEMON is a WRPG.

But then again, who knows? Maybe it is. Pokemon -does- have more emphasis on a free-roaming world, a non-definitive story that doesn't 'end' the game, and you get to choose your avatar's gender! Add in a Morality gauge and it has all of the things that BioWare's creator said that a "true RPG" needs to have. (Hmm... Thought exercise: How would a Morality gauge in Pokemon work? Can't use Dark, Ghost, or Poison Pokemon without going to the evil side?!)

And a link that's probably been seen here a few times already, but why not: http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg


Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #164 on: March 09, 2012, 02:38:39 AM »
That might be an argument if CT/P3/Pokeyman gave the player any bearing on the decisions of the character WRT the narrative. A lot of WRPGs give the main char a fuckton of dialogue, just no voice (Dragon Age, Fallouts, so on) which is exactly not what your examples do.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #165 on: March 09, 2012, 02:42:28 AM »
Quote
And how the game might be affected without good game play to support it, much like Final Fantasy XIII was.

From hardcore BG fans. I am just going to roll my eyes and move on. Though that bit is taken out of context, since the interviewer talks about finding FF13's extreme linearity to be a grind which is reasonable enough.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #166 on: March 09, 2012, 02:56:42 AM »
Quote
And how the game might be affected without good game play to support it, much like Final Fantasy XIII was.

From hardcore BG fans. I am just going to roll my eyes and move on. Though that bit is taken out of context, since the interviewer talks about finding FF13's extreme linearity to be a grind which is reasonable enough.

What I'd call the "FF13 experience" is actually not super-uncommon in actual RPGs. I'm told it's fairly prevalent in VtM circles especially. I even played a Shadowrun campaign that followed the mold. All you need is a GM who can't improvise and just tells you "no, you can't" whenever you want to do something that's not part of the plan. and then you watch GM-run dudes fight while occasionally getting to roll a dice.

So, much as it pains me, FF13 is actually a fairly faithful recreation of a style of tabletop RPG.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #167 on: March 09, 2012, 06:03:18 AM »
That might be an argument if CT/P3/Pokeyman gave the player any bearing on the decisions of the character WRT the narrative. A lot of WRPGs give the main char a fuckton of dialogue, just no voice (Dragon Age, Fallouts, so on) which is exactly not what your examples do.

You get to make plenty of decisions that effect the narrative in CT/P3/Pokemon... Multiple ending paths in CT, which Social Links to focus on in P3, and... well, Pokemon doesn't have a story but you get to choose what kind of Pokemon Master you want to be, and which of the various optional sidequests involving Legendaries are worth taking on. The whole Pokemon experience reminds me a lot of WRPG MMO-style instances, honestly.

Though really, my point was more that these traits are -not- what divide JRPGs and WRPGs. I don't think of CT/P3/Pokemon as anymore of a WRPG than I think of Skyrim as a JRPG. But BioWare/Bethesda are the outliers to me. They're the most notable WRPGs, but they aren't the standard. There's quite a few very linear/narrative-focused "JRPG-style" RPGs made in the West, the Lord of the Rings games coming to mind immediately. I like them better, but I'm starting to suspect that the only real difference in WRPG and JRPG really *is* just Aesthetics.

It makes me want to play Septerra Core (an example from pt2 of the EC show that I'm assuming is a Western-made RPG with anime-style graphics) to see if that rings true. Notably, Breath of Death and Cthulhu Saves the World feel very much like JRPGs to me and have all the necessary aesthetics, but they were also -designed- to evoke that feeling, so it may be a bad example.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #168 on: March 09, 2012, 06:27:38 AM »
From a narrative standpoint, there are less hard and fast rules and more just tendencies.  It's less the narrative and more the gameplay differences that stand out for me.  And not just the raw mechanics so much as the design philosophy behind each.  A typical wRPG emphasizes learning and acquiring new tools in your travels, be it Sword of Maiming +2 or picking up 5 levels in your herbology score.  A typical jRPG emphasizes training, a very shonen-esque style of characters who explicitly push themselves to gain literal physical and psychic/magical/mental strength, and on making their existing arsenal deadlier rather than replacing it outright.  Exceptions exist, but all the ones I can think of are also games often cited as hybridizing the two genres.
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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #169 on: March 09, 2012, 07:19:12 AM »
Most of your examples are distinct linear paths there Djinn rather than a set of individual diverse choices that make up the prototypical Western style rpg.  Things like KotOR do have fairly clear paths (light/dark) but at all points you are free to diverge from the path whenever you feel you should/want to etc.  Stopping a Social Link for example isn't really a valid story divergence.  It is burning a bridge rather than a divergent plot.  There is some minor decisions in major plot points but it is a binary choice rather than a myriad of choices (or illusions of choice) that you get in the more WRPG style.

Now commonly people will not actually not diverge from the path, but that itself is part of the differences they describe.  The reinforced binary choice chosen over and over is part of the expression of self where as a single big choice allows for more fluid narrative overall.

Now lots of WRPGs give an illusion of two choices and may actually not even have one mechanically (branched dialogue that leads to a single narrative path).  That ties into the argument that underneath similar mechanics the major difference is the feeling and style rather than a mechanic difference.

So you are back to their argument that you should t define genres by the mechanics but by the emotional response.
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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #170 on: March 09, 2012, 03:40:45 PM »
DJ: The difference (and reasoning why I certainly wouldn't call Pokemon/P3/CT wRPGs) is that there is absolutely no sensation of actually controlling a "character." Much as I've been complaining and debating about the merits of auto-dialogue/dialogue-choice (re: ME3), mains like the Warden or the Bhaalspawn, while silent, can be distinctly realized as characters of sort via dialogue options, interactions, plot choices, etc.

Yeah, they're player avatars, but the game is structured around pretending they are characters and have a place in the world.

Chrono/Pokemon Trainer/Minato are not so much even fake characters as warm bodies that serve entirely to move the plot forward. You can't really, within the confines of the game, create a "character" for them in any meaningful regard. Oh sure, you can play make believe and write fan fiction or something, but that is taking place outside the context of the game.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #171 on: March 09, 2012, 04:40:14 PM »
In addition, Chrono Trigger has no real "roleplay" (in the WRPG sense) aspect. At one point in the game, Crono dies (spoilers right guys?), and you go on playing as the rest of the party. The few decisions the player makes in the story (i.e., when to fight Lavos, which quests to do in the Fated Hour, etc.) are not decisions that the player is making within the game as Crono, but rather decisions the player is making as the puppetmaster described in the EC video. In that sense it is very much a JRPG.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #173 on: March 09, 2012, 11:40:24 PM »
That might be an argument if CT/P3/Pokeyman gave the player any bearing on the decisions of the character WRT the narrative. A lot of WRPGs give the main char a fuckton of dialogue, just no voice (Dragon Age, Fallouts, so on) which is exactly not what your examples do.

You get to make plenty of decisions that effect the narrative in CT/P3/Pokemon... Multiple ending paths in CT, which Social Links to focus on in P3, and... well, Pokemon doesn't have a story but you get to choose what kind of Pokemon Master you want to be, and which of the various optional sidequests involving Legendaries are worth taking on. The whole Pokemon experience reminds me a lot of WRPG MMO-style instances, honestly.

Though really, my point was more that these traits are -not- what divide JRPGs and WRPGs. I don't think of CT/P3/Pokemon as anymore of a WRPG than I think of Skyrim as a JRPG. But BioWare/Bethesda are the outliers to me. They're the most notable WRPGs, but they aren't the standard. There's quite a few very linear/narrative-focused "JRPG-style" RPGs made in the West, the Lord of the Rings games coming to mind immediately. I like them better, but I'm starting to suspect that the only real difference in WRPG and JRPG really *is* just Aesthetics.

It makes me want to play Septerra Core (an example from pt2 of the EC show that I'm assuming is a Western-made RPG with anime-style graphics) to see if that rings true. Notably, Breath of Death and Cthulhu Saves the World feel very much like JRPGs to me and have all the necessary aesthetics, but they were also -designed- to evoke that feeling, so it may be a bad example.

This is really only true if you are using the most literal interpretation of "JRPG" and "WRPG" possible and then select counter-examples to make your argument true. If you talk about genre and not simply classify them by country of origin (because they really are two entirely different genres.  FF7 and Fallout came out around the same time, but have as much in common with each other as Command and Conquer does with Freespace) then your whole argument kind of stops making sense.

The thing about the Social Links, the CT endings, and retrieving Crono is that they aren't decisions as much as they are bonus content or, well, multiple endings.  There is no reason NOT to do all the Social Links or get Crono back.  Claiming that they are choices the player makes in the narrative would then define the player's ability to continue playing the game at all rather than not finishing it as a decision with narrative weight.  Only true if you want to define "narrative choice" in the most broad way possible.  Yes, "keep going forward" is a decision, that was the whole point of Lonesome Road, but it is not enough of a decision to start claiming it's a meaningful decision in a roleplaying sense unless you want to decide that literally everything is now an RPG.

Also, how is BW/Obsidian/BethSoft not "the standard" anymore than Square is "the standard" for JRPGs?  They're the leading studios of the genre.  They set the bar for everyone else. I mean, look at the link right above me: Mass Effect 3 has moved 3.5 million copies already.  3.5 million copies says your game is "the game."
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 11:47:36 PM by Rob the Stampede »

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2012, 08:15:19 AM »
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/165386/GDC_2012_Psychological_advice_for_making_players_care.php

I did not hear about this until Monday morning, but apparently this is newsworthy.