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Author Topic: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!  (Read 38418 times)

Grefter

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #175 on: March 13, 2012, 09:14:30 AM »
Yay!  I had been meaning to ask how it went.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
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AndrewRogue

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #176 on: March 13, 2012, 03:13:31 PM »
Serious grats! ^_^

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #177 on: March 13, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »
Nice!
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
There’s no need for gods.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #178 on: March 13, 2012, 06:50:22 PM »
Yay, congrats!

And that was even an interesting read to me personally, I approve.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #179 on: March 14, 2012, 12:20:48 AM »
In other GDC stuff, JE Sawyer put the presentation slides he did on his blog. Should be required reading for anyone who wants to make an RPG.  http://diogenes-lamp.info/GDC12_Do_Say_The_Right_Thing.pdf

metroid composite

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #180 on: March 14, 2012, 03:06:32 AM »
Yay, congrats!

And that was even an interesting read to me personally, I approve.

Whenever they put the full slides online I'll link them, because that article does stuff like condense 16 slides into two sentences o_O.  Anyway....


So like Grefter-bait kickstarters, and stuff:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

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http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-interacting-with-woman-leave-man-cognitively-impaired

NotMiki

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #181 on: March 14, 2012, 07:09:26 AM »
So I read this for class the other day, and I found it very enlightening regarding what science is good for and how we can justify creating environmental policy in the face of massive uncertainty.

The Art of the Unsolveable: Locating the Vital Center of Science for Environmental Law and Policy
www.law.arizona.edu/faculty/FacultyPubs/Documents/Adelman/ALS07-17.pdf

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metroid composite

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #182 on: March 14, 2012, 08:18:43 AM »
So...I didn't realize just how deep the Gamasutra rabbit hole goes...

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/165453/From_the_Editor_5_key_takeaways_from_GDC_2012.php

Grefter

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #183 on: March 14, 2012, 02:22:32 PM »
Nice.  Glad to see other people finding out how much fun your brain is.  I look forward to reading the whole thing sometime!

I will have to think about Wasteland 2.  I am kind of iffy about giving my money to Brian Fargo these days.  The gap between his recent record and Tim Schafer's is quite wide.  He is always an interesting guy to read statements by and all that, just not totally on board with a game he is doing actually.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #184 on: March 14, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »
Also, apparently Stackpole is doing the writing, which means nobody will have conversations, they'll just make speeches at each other. Anyone not in some kind of combat unit will be either complacent, incompetent or comically evil. And the main character won't have a personality, just lots of things that make him special.

Cmdr_King

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2012, 08:22:11 PM »
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3

End of Extra Credit's jrpg/wrpg series.  Therein they try to summarize why the jrpg has 'declined' and for the most part they're spot on.

Mind you, I not only enjoy but prefer menus, by and large.  The issue is really that most games don't present a design that compliments them.  I mean, there's an audience for 4x games and the like, because there's no shortage of people who enjoy being given goals and resources and devising ways to both increase those resources, expand their goals, and leverage what they have to help them achieve it.  (Of course, probably hurts that I actively dislike shooters and an overwhelming majority of wRPGs have used that for combat in the past 5 or 6 years.)
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2012, 09:09:51 PM »
I quite liked the first two entries, but by comparison, didn't find too much in that segment I found to be good analysis.

Oh, I agree with the basic premise that other genres came in and stole JRPGs' near-monopoly on narrative and abnegation (in fact I made that very argument here just last week). I agree that this has to some degree stripped the JRPG fandom down to people who enjoy their combat. I have a large disagreement with them, like CK and several other people on their forums, on the suggestion that there's no market for menu- or turn-based combat, however.

The rest of this segment managed to say remarkably little, beyond truisms like "you should pay money for games you think are good", well... yeah? That's kinda how markets work. People already do that.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #187 on: March 15, 2012, 01:25:22 AM »
CK, are there 4x games that use menu-based combat? All the ones I can think of either use RTS combat (SotS, Total War) or automate combat entirely (Civ, GalCiv 2). I feel like menu-driven, turn-based 4x gameplay existing doesn't say much one way or another about it, as they are almost opposites: the 4x games tend to use menus for everything BUT combat.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #188 on: March 15, 2012, 02:47:10 AM »
Sorry, I meant, 4x as a genre is very menu based, or was last time I played with one.  The combat is usually an exception!  Although I dunno that it's the big draw?  I've only played a couple but the ones I'm familiar with had "simulate battle" or the like.  Granted, maybe that's just for late-game when battles will tend to be big curb stomps or something.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #189 on: March 15, 2012, 03:21:54 AM »
I think the combat is the big draw in Total War. Not as much other franchises. But it's really a hybrid 4x/RTS and it's billed that way. 4x in general is... I dont know if I would call it "menu based" in the same way. It's how you build stuff but most modern 4x games have a really RTS-style point and click UI even when they don't use that combat style (like Civ 5 for example). So that's what I would draw parallels to more than anything else.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 03:23:34 AM by Rob the Stampede »

Xeroma

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #190 on: March 15, 2012, 05:24:55 AM »
Master of Magic had turn based battles IIRC, and that's 4x.


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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #191 on: March 15, 2012, 06:52:28 AM »
HOMM does too, but not menu-driven, which was more my point.

Grefter

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #192 on: March 15, 2012, 11:29:22 AM »
Civ doesn't have menu driven combat, but especially early Civ games have super menu based everything else.  Towns are the big highlight, but research trees, diplomacy, Advisors (lol) and generally all navigation until you learn hotkeys are very menu driven.

I would also consider a large portion of HoMM to be menu based for similar things.  Basic movement and direct combat blissfully are not though with a standard interactive point and click interface. (Do we even try to call it by the rebranded Might and Magic Heroes?  It doesn't roll off the tongue as well and MMH looks like a lame version of MMA).

The thing 4x avoids with its menus that JRPGs fall trap to is nested menus.  Pick what you want to do, pick what type of thing you want to do that you chose to do.  Use an item, pick what item you want to use, pick who you want to use that item on.  It kind of doesn't if you consider Towns as a specific menu, but I think that is overly abstracting the implementation. 

I don't mind me some menu driven combat and clearly like JRPGs that are coming out even now still, but menu implementation hasn't been a particularly strong point for years and more complex Western stuff falls prey to it as well (sup Neverwinter Nights?  I heard you like radial menus so I put radial menus in your radial menus so you can menu while you menu).  By coopting other genres combat systems Western stuff hasn't really solved UI design issues so much as side stepped them as they got better at it (Sup Mass Effect 1?  I heard you wanted gunz so I got you 10 levels of 20 different brands of gunz for 4 different types of gunz). 

There is solutions to it that kind of work.  As much as I kind of loathe it myself, the wheel that Persona 3/4 (and 2?) used kind of works to remove some of the drudgery.  It is still a menu but icons instead of raw text go a ways and cuts down on screen real estate compared to Final Fantasy's big bars everywhere (with added kludge in the top right corner for FF13 or your map and compass for FF12 if I am remembering right).  I prefer the BoF 3/4 or Wild Arms directional inputs.  It is still super menu based, but it really cuts down on the button presses at the macro level of the menus so makes it that much less intrusive and adds more muscle memory being able to be used in your menus.  Bonus points if your menu can be used one handed by having at least L1/2 be at the very least Accept.  Not that I want specifically less interactive menus, but if your menu driven combat system requires two hands to use?  Good gods that is over the top.  That would be like having to use a keyboard in a point and click adventure game.  You have a perfectly functional input system in one place.  Sure let you use X to accept or whatever, but don't neglect the shoulder buttons as perfectly decent inputs.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

AndrewRogue

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #193 on: March 15, 2012, 03:25:07 PM »
CK/NEB: I... am not quite sure his point and yours are necessarily exclusive? There is definitely a subset of people who don't mind/like menu based mechanics (ya'll, board gamers, etc), but I think it pushes more in-line with something NEB said earlier. The market for people who want menu based games is simply smaller and, now that the same narratives and such can come out of other genres, people who were originally held captive by menu based systems were freed to run into the fields and roll among the tulips.

He does push it a bit far (re: menus being unengaging, although that's a topic for another time), but I think the core of the argument is sound?

Cmdr_King

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #194 on: March 15, 2012, 06:51:38 PM »
Yeah, basically the style of menu most rpgs use is suited to NES-level input schemes.  You only really have "okay" and "cancel" so you need menus within menus which is functional but puts a lot of work between the player and doing anything.  In a PC game, with a mouse, you still have menus for things but you can skip two or three layers because if you need to interact with something you click on it and bring up it's menu, and that's assuming you don't have a hotkey option for that action.  So yeah, in that sense there's some definite lack of changing with the times, there's occasional games like SMRPG that at least acknowledge hey, we have these other buttons, they can do things but it is really sort of the exception.

Andrew: Obviously.  But even given that, there's a bigger audience for that sort of thing than people realize and it hasn't really been targeted.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

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NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Captain K.

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #197 on: March 20, 2012, 06:09:16 PM »
That was really interesting!

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: I've got your Miscellaneous Links for ya, 2012! RIGHT HERE!
« Reply #198 on: March 20, 2012, 10:57:20 PM »
http://theselvedgeyard.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/andre-the-giant-proving-size-matters/

Greatest man of all time.

The original article:
http://www.drunkard.com/issues/10_06/10_06_andre_giant.html

I used to have a subscription to this magazine, back when they offered them. Richard English is one of my favorite writers they have.  He also did this one on Presidents.
http://www.drunkard.com/issues/56/56-founding-drunkards.html
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:02:24 PM by Rob the Stampede »

NotMiki

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Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!