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Author Topic: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)  (Read 1356 times)

superaielman

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Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« on: January 24, 2012, 04:27:41 PM »
Hope vs Sigurd (S4)
Hope vs Bowie (SF2)
Hope vs Cielo (DDS)
Hope vs Ayne (LoL2)
Hope vs Fred (S3)
Hope vs Midboss (Disgaea)
Hope vs Jibril (SO2)
Hope vs Matthew (FE7)
Hope vs Vivi (FF9)
Hope vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Hope vs Charizard (PKMN)
Hope vs Dalton (CT)

Lightning vs Sigurd (S4)
Lightning vs Bowie (SF2)
Lightning vs Cielo (DDS)
Lightning vs Ayne (LoL2)
Lightning vs Fred (S3)
Lightning vs Midboss (Disgaea)
Lightning vs Jibril (SO2)
Lightning vs Matthew (FE7)
Lightning vs Vivi (FF9)
Lightning vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Lightning vs Charizard (PKMN)
Lightning vs Dalton (CT)

Sazh vs Sigurd (S4)
Sazh vs Bowie (SF2)
Sazh vs Cielo (DDS)
Sazh vs Ayne (LoL2)
Sazh vs Fred (S3)
Sazh vs Midboss (Disgaea)
Sazh vs Jibril (SO2)
Sazh vs Matthew (FE7)
Sazh vs Vivi (FF9)
Sazh vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Sazh vs Charizard (PKMN)
Sazh vs Dalton (CT)
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superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 05:08:36 PM »
Hope vs Sigurd (S4)- Silent Lake.
Hope vs Bowie (SF2)- Opens with shell/protect to avoid the OHKO, stacks on a haste/faith, then goes to town.
Hope vs Cielo (DDS)- Too much status, offhand.
Hope vs Ayne (LoL2)- Think he can OHKO Hope through defensive buffs.
Hope vs Fred (S3)- Fred doesn't OHKO, so haste/protect, switch to medic and win a long slugfest.
Hope vs Midboss (Disgaea)- See Fred.
Hope vs Jibril (SO2)- Weird fight. Think Hope can't seal the deal in time before getting eaten.
Hope vs Matthew (FE7)- I see him going first.
Hope vs Vivi (FF9)- Status+elemental walling.
Hope vs FuSoYa (FF4)- Status.
Hope vs Charizard (PKMN)- OHKO.
Hope vs Dalton (CT)- It's Dalton.

Lightning vs Sigurd (S4)- Outslugs.
Lightning vs Bowie (SF2)- Rotates Medic/Commando turns, should be enough.
Lightning vs Cielo (DDS)- Light needs to 2HKO and go first and avoid status here to win. Don't think that all happens.
Lightning vs Ayne (LoL2)- Ayne has way too much durability and damage here.
Lightning  vs Fred (S3)- Fred just outdamages her Medic healing, making that a pretty bad choice. Light's damage is hurt by his evasion so she has to use Ruin outslug. I don't think that's enough.
Lightning vs Midboss (Disgaea)- Usual Midboss fail.
Lightning vs Jibril (SO2)
Lightning vs Matthew (FE7)- Light gets shredded here. Not her type of fight.
Lightning vs Vivi (FF9)- Vivi durability.
Lightning vs FuSoYa (FF4)- Light just misses the OHKO.
Lightning vs Charizard (PKMN)- Faster, isn't OHKOed. Light switching over to Medic is a losing move; since Charizard is faster and can just heal lock with moves that do damage+status.
Lightning vs Dalton (CT)- Medic's healing lets her outlast Dalton.

Sazh vs Sigurd (S4)- Outlasts.
Sazh vs Bowie (SF2)- Oh man, he is running literal circles around Bowie after haste. EDIT: FF13 haste is that weak? *Flush*
Sazh vs Cielo (DDS)- Status.
Sazh vs Ayne (LoL2)- Think Ayne can slug through this even with the massive speed gap.
Sazh vs Fred (S3)- Fred draws first blood and slows down Sazh's unremarkable offense enough with evasion and defense from there.
Sazh vs Midboss (Disgaea)- I think Midboss 3HKOs through the defensive buffs, and isn't 3HKOed back.
Sazh vs Jibril (SO2)- Jibril sucks. EDIT: Haste bad? Sazh be boned.
Sazh vs Matthew (FE7)- Evasion+damage.
Sazh vs Vivi (FF9)- No Veil and bad haste? Well then. Failing to 2HKO Vivi is also pretty sad.
Sazh vs FuSoYa (FF4)- Status.
Sazh vs Charizard (PKMN)- Better slugger.
Sazh vs Dalton (CT)

Lightning:  6-6
Hope: 4-8
Sazh: 0-12
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 04:01:09 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 08:01:36 PM »
Yeesh.  Too many uninteresting duelers in this Middle field, even among those I can theoretically vote on.

Hope vs Fred (S3)
Can't pulse his damage.
Hope vs Matthew (FE7)
Sure, inclined to tiebreak and let Matthew go first...  but...  according to the stat topic, Matthew does ~.30 PCHP damage a hit.  His opening double knocks Hope down .60 PCHP.  Hope uses Haste / Protect.  Let's see Medic as slow enough to let Matthew get another shot in...   a Protect'd hit still won't finish the job (Haste means no more doubles).  Hope heals it all off, and also equips some light ID resistance + throws up Veil for the ID, then Faith'd magics his way through.
Hope vs Vivi (FF9)
The only relevant status Vivi offers are Slow and Death, and Slow is easily dealt with.  Not really inclined to hype Stop too much (throwing away the instant win so it's only 2 turns, not enough to kill Hope through Shell with damage), and Petrify, dunno, maybe, but not sure it matters.  Hope goes first, uses Haste / Veil, and enters with some ID resistance just in case.  Vivi has like a 5% chance of connecting with Death.   Now granted, Vivi can halve Hope's elements (but can't null them all), so Hope offense fails forever in this fight, more so than usual.  (No Ruin Commando for Hope.)  But with him Hasted and Vivi HP still not great and Vivi basically unable to threaten Hope (damage just meets Medic + running out Vivi's MP), I think Hope will kill before the ID connects.  The ID connects in ~15-20 turns, and the damage should kill in about 14 turns, but Hope is hasted so it's more like 10 turns.
Hope vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Bah, FF4 status hype.  Most of the final dungeon is immune but hey the two enemies we found that are vulnerable to it eat it 100% of the time.  Regardless FuSoYa's got a bunch of options and most are fight-ending so Hope's Veil doesn't slow this down enough.
Hope vs Dalton (CT)
Dalton vs. Haste-Healer.

Lightning vs Fred (S3)
Lightning vs Matthew (FE7)
Lightning goes first to me, but it doesn't matter, 2 Ruin spam sets don't finish the day.
Lightning vs Vivi (FF9)
Vivi gets one shot of the ID and Lightning will enter with some resistance anyway.
Lightning vs FuSoYa (FF4)
I'll go with super, sure.
Lightning vs Dalton (CT)
Dalton vs. Healer.

Sazh vs Fred (S3)
Sure, Fred draws first blood, but then he's up against Haste / Protect'd Sazh.  He has a 3HKO, so now it's a 5HKO or so with the first hit getting around Protect.  I think Hasted / Faith'd Sazh can finish Fred in time with magic.
Sazh vs Matthew (FE7)
Unfortunately for Sazh Matthew has MEvade so the above plan doesn't work.  Matthew damage does massively fail after Haste / Protect turns off his doubles but Sazh still has to set up Bravery and then miss a bunch of times which is fatal.
Sazh vs Vivi (FF9)
No Veil for Sazh but he just outslugs before status lands with gunshots.
Sazh vs FuSoYa (FF4)
See Lightning / Super.
Sazh vs Dalton (CT)
I don't think CT protect helped against Iron Orb / Nus, so it doesn't help Sazh here.  And Haste is useless with counters.  He can uh Bravery -> outslug if you have horrible Dalton HP respect I guess, but it needs to be a 2HKO or something.  Actually, the stat topic does claim that Dalton has ~.85 PCHP or so, so a 2HKO is actually pretty probable here...  after Bravery.  So the way Sazh wins is Haste / Bravery -> Iron Orb -> instant double on gunshots.  If he misses the instant double Dalton burps him out.  Unfortunately the stat topic claims that Dalton barely avoids an instant double from 13 Speed Crono, so if we throw out turn 1 of Sazh at average speed, I'd see post-Haste Sazh as roughly Cronoish, so he doesn't get his double.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 09:27:41 PM »
Um Vivi can fullheal himself because of FFIX elemental cheese... it usually doesn't matter that -horribly- often because Vivi durability is pretty trashy and he's slow, but.
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 09:40:25 PM »
Good point.  Looking again at the stat topic...  Vivi has 16 shots of Death if he dumps all his MP into it.  14 if he has to use Water on himself once for a shot of full-healing.  Death is a 32% chance by default.  Veil knocks this down to 16%.  Not 100% sure where I see legality of FF13 equips, but let's use the harshest interp, storebought lvl. 1 no upgrades...  Hope can equip 3 30% ID blockers.  16 * (.70)^3 = 5.5%.  (.945)^14 = 45.3% chance of Death connecting in 14 tries, which isn't good enough.

BUT Vivi has Osmose?!  I'm generally fairly lenient about Osmose targets; I'll usually let it target bosses since FF9 bosses usually have MP you can steal.  But FF13 is a bit wackier, as there's definitely no MP stat, which means either a boundless well of MP to drain or no MP.  Eh.  Standing by my vote, I'll be harsh on Osmose today.  Bizarre fight.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 03:52:26 AM »
Hope vs Sigurd (S4): Hope has entirely mage jobs, yeah.
Hope vs Bowie (SF2): Hope's type of fight, he controls it entirely.
Hope vs Cielo (DDS): Unsure, but between Hope not being able to block Charm and Cielo having dispel, he probably takes this.
Hope vs Ayne (LoL2): Protect controls Ayne utterly, and Hope doesn't even have to worry about a MA.
Hope vs Fred (S3): See above. Fred at least goes first, but I don't think it's enough.
Hope vs Midboss (Disgaea): Even if Mid-boss went first, I doubt he'd OHKO so I don't think it matters.
Hope vs Jibril (SO2): Kneejerk that this is one of those fights allowing Ruin tilts. Close.
Hope vs Matthew (FE7): Assassination pressure kicks in eventually. And yes, Matthew only does 30%... to average. That's 40x2 = 80 to Hope, a bit too much pressure even after Protect.
Hope vs Vivi (FF9): Veil makes Vivi's bad status even worse, and Ruin blitzes Vivi out pretty badly.
Hope vs FuSoYa (FF4): Eh, sure.
Hope vs Charizard (PKMN): Charizard's not too far from one-rounding with Fire Spin, but he falls short, and Haste/Shell means he only has one chance.
Hope vs Dalton (CT): Healer.

Lightning vs Sigurd (S4): Ouststalls, and her physicals mean Sigurd can't use Silent Lake.
Lightning vs Bowie (SF2): She can't outslug, and Bowie can mostly heal-lock her, with a double attack probably ending the fight eventually.
Lightning vs Cielo (DDS): Eh, sure, agree with Super.
Lightning vs Ayne (LoL2): Think the speed kills his ability to pressure. Allowing Art Attack Up would tilt things the other way.
Lightning vs Fred (S3): Ruin lets her possibly outslug, but even if not she stall out the fight.
Lightning vs Midboss (Disgaea): Midboss has that whole auto-losing to healers thing.
Lightning vs Jibril (SO2)
Lightning vs Matthew (FE7): Constant 2HKOs with the ID threat. Yeah.
Lightning vs Vivi (FF9): Not much Vivi respect, what else is new.
Lightning vs FuSoYa (FF4): Lame. If I banned Ruin from Vanille/Hope I might hype her OHKOing though!
Lightning vs Charizard (PKMN): Yeah, I think so. Has good heal-locking options if it comes to that, and Lightning has no buffs to disrupt his game.
Lightning vs Dalton (CT): Stalls until a summon, at worst.

Sazh vs Sigurd (S4): Healing and whatever, yeah.
Sazh vs Bowie (SF2): Sazh doesn't really win against people who 2HKO, and Haste is only a 28% boost, not enough for a double since Bowie is average after turn 1.
Sazh vs Cielo (DDS): Status.
Sazh vs Ayne (LoL2): No, I'm too lazy to recalc this with non-AAU Ayne. It's a good fight, but meh, lazy.
Sazh vs Fred (S3): Doubt Sazh Ruin is outslugging Fred who is faster forever.
Sazh vs Midboss (Disgaea): Decent slugger against those who can't heal!
Sazh vs Jibril (SO2): EDIT: What am I thinking, the buffs don't slow down om nom nom.
Sazh vs Matthew (FE7)
Sazh vs Vivi (FF9): Oh, never mind, Sazh doesn't have Veil.
Sazh vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Sazh vs Charizard (PKMN)
Sazh vs Dalton (CT)

Hope 8-4
Lightning 7-5
Sazh 0-11

About what I would have guessed!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 01:02:49 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 04:44:32 AM »
Hope vs Matthew (FE7): Assassination pressure kicks in eventually. And yes, Matthew only does 30%... to average. That's 40x2 = 80 to Hope, a bit too much pressure even after Protect.

Funnily enough, Matthew does 30% to me...after factoring in the doubling. Assasination might work here though (Uh...god, that's horrible. 50% chance of my already low crit respect then checking whatever ID res Hope is given- which is probably 66% to me. 3 Unupgraded ones stacked).
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 05:07:36 AM »
I'd let Veil still work against FE Assassination, although I can see an argument to let it only stop magical status, I guess.  And Hope certainly would have time to set that up against that Matthew.

On that match..  well, I do give FF13 Medic and Synergist a speed penalty, but not a harsh enough one to not let Hope "double" Matthew most likely if he opens Haste / Protect.  So eat double, Haste / Protect, switch to Medic, heal up, and not heal-locked thanks to no more doubles.  Granted...  Hope's durability is worse than I thought (I thought it was ~80%, it's actually 73%), so yeah, a double + a single hit against Protect should do the job anyway.  (FF13 Protect is ~40% reduction?  It needs to be ~55-60% reduction to help Hope survive that.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 05:47:45 AM »
FF13 is a 1/3 damage reduction. I also don't see Haste's modest ~27% boost shutting off doubles but a big YMMV with the scaling there.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 08:09:34 AM »
Oh yes, how did the math for 27% speed boost for DL speed come about?
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 08:24:34 AM »
It's a 50% speed boost but only to the gauge itself. The stat topic estimates that (for Tier 2 weapons anyway) 4.5 seconds are spent filling the gauge, then 2.5 seconds are spent using it (though this second figure would vary by move used). With Haste, the "4.5 seconds" becomes "3 seconds", so the total turn time goes from 7 seconds to 5.5, which is a 27% improvement (7/5.5 = 1.27).

EDIT: Strictly speaking, Haste should be more effective for actions which take very little animation time (Ravager Snow for instance?) but less for actions which take a lot of time (such as Mediguard). However, as neither Haste-user has access to Sentinel or has exceptionally noteworthy casting times I'm happy to go with Tal's stat topic estimate unless someone wants to do more testing.

EDIT #2: This also reminds me I've been slightly overrating Slow, too. Slow would make the 4.5 seconds 9 seconds, so the total turn time goes from 7 to 11.5, which means slowed PCs get 60% the number of turns instead of the 50% you might think. That said, I suspect enemies spend a higher percentage of their time filling their gauge than PCs do (they tend not to do the "take 5 different small actions" thing, though some do) so it could be closer to 55%. Still pretty darn good and certainly much more effective than Haste at affecting the battle (unless immuned).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 08:30:20 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 04:18:51 PM »
Quote
Lightning vs Fred (S3): Ruin lets her possibly outslug, but even if not she stall out the fight.

Did you mean to vote for Light instead of Fred?
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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 11:29:28 PM »
Copying NEB with minor differences... or not, since I agree with him on everything!

Hope vs Sigurd (S4): Hope has entirely mage jobs, yeah.
Hope vs Bowie (SF2): Hope's type of fight, he controls it entirely.
Hope vs Cielo (DDS): Unsure, but between Hope not being able to block Charm and Cielo having dispel, he probably takes this.
Hope vs Ayne (LoL2): Protect controls Ayne utterly, and Hope doesn't even have to worry about a MA.
Hope vs Fred (S3): See above. Fred at least goes first, but I don't think it's enough.
Hope vs Midboss (Disgaea): Even if Mid-boss went first, I doubt he'd OHKO so I don't think it matters.
Hope vs Jibril (SO2): Kneejerk that this is one of those fights allowing Ruin tilts. Close.
Hope vs Matthew (FE7): Assassination pressure kicks in eventually. And yes, Matthew only does 30%... to average. That's 40x2 = 80 to Hope, a bit too much pressure even after Protect.
Hope vs Vivi (FF9): Veil makes Vivi's bad status even worse, and Ruin blitzes Vivi out pretty badly.
Hope vs FuSoYa (FF4): Eh, sure.
Hope vs Charizard (PKMN): Charizard's not too far from one-rounding with Fire Spin, but he falls short, and Haste/Shell means he only has one chance.
Hope vs Dalton (CT): Healer.

Lightning vs Sigurd (S4): Ouststalls, and her physicals mean Sigurd can't use Silent Lake.
Lightning vs Bowie (SF2): She can't outslug, and Bowie can mostly heal-lock her, with a double attack probably ending the fight eventually.
Lightning vs Cielo (DDS): Eh, sure, agree with Super.
Lightning vs Ayne (LoL2): Think the speed kills his ability to pressure. Allowing Art Attack Up would tilt things the other way.
Lightning vs Fred (S3): Ruin lets her possibly outslug, but even if not she stall out the fight.
Lightning vs Midboss (Disgaea): Midboss has that whole auto-losing to healers thing.
Lightning vs Jibril (SO2)
Lightning vs Matthew (FE7): Constant 2HKOs with the ID threat. Yeah.
Lightning vs Vivi (FF9): Not much Vivi respect, what else is new.
Lightning vs FuSoYa (FF4): Lame. If I banned Ruin from Vanille/Hope I might hype her OHKOing though!
Lightning vs Charizard (PKMN): Yeah, I think so. Has good heal-locking options if it comes to that, and Lightning has no buffs to disrupt his game.
Lightning vs Dalton (CT): Stalls until a summon, at worst.

Sazh vs Sigurd (S4): Healing and whatever, yeah.
Sazh vs Bowie (SF2): Sazh doesn't really win against people who 2HKO, and Haste is only a 28% boost, not enough for a double since Bowie is average after turn 1.
Sazh vs Cielo (DDS): Status.
Sazh vs Ayne (LoL2): No, I'm too lazy to recalc this with non-AAU Ayne. It's a good fight, but meh, lazy.
Sazh vs Fred (S3): Doubt Sazh Ruin is outslugging Fred who is faster forever.
Sazh vs Midboss (Disgaea): Decent slugger against those who can't heal!
Sazh vs Jibril (SO2): EDIT: What am I thinking, the buffs don't slow down om nom nom.
Sazh vs Matthew (FE7)
Sazh vs Vivi (FF9): Oh, never mind, Sazh doesn't have Veil.
Sazh vs FuSoYa (FF4)
Sazh vs Charizard (PKMN)
Sazh vs Dalton (CT)

Hope 8-4
Lightning 6-6
Sazh 0-11

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Middle)
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 01:03:01 AM »
Quote
Lightning vs Fred (S3): Ruin lets her possibly outslug, but even if not she stall out the fight.

Did you mean to vote for Light instead of Fred?


Yes, fixed.

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Maybe.