Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 66

[Nephrite]

"Hm... So you all passed? Very well. Perhaps it truly is time to change things."


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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Team Random | Fogel (Multitarget), Rune, Tidus, Marco, Raja
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
Team Random vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team Random vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team Random vs. Mispolm, Sudowoodo and Deneb
Team Random vs. Spar, Frog, Yumi (S3) and Bo
Team Random vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)

Team Grefter | Orlandu, Rikku, Nina4 (Status Symbol Law) Rikku's Stuff
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
Team Grefter vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team Grefter vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team Grefter vs. Mispolm, Sudowoodo and Deneb
Team Grefter vs. Spar, Frog, Yumi (S3) and Bo
Team Grefter vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)

Team Glen | Virginia, Red, Sharanda, Emma, (Speed?)  Eiko
[ Fiery Rage, Aqua Wisp, and Terra Roar ] ST floor
Floor 3a: A Singlet
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, are single target for this floor and may be targetted regardless of original conditions.
Team Glen vs. Chris, Rody (Firefly Rune (Not Sealstone)), Alanis and Melville
Team Glen vs. Kiryl and Angelo
Team Glen vs. Flora (WoZ)
Team Glen vs. Atma Weapon
*Full Heal
Team Glen vs. Kefka

Team MICHAEL | Ramza, Feena, Rosa+Rydia(Body Charge), Ditto
[Ramza: Squire, Draw Out, Defense UP, Auto Potion | Feena: All Eggs]
[Rune Blade, Aegis Shield/Thief Hat/Crystal Mail (Feather Mantle if you allow it, Bracer if not)]
[Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind]
Team MICHAEL vs. Sasarai, Tengaar, Hellion and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)
Team MICHAEL vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Flik
Team MICHAEL vs. Kary, Ho-oh and Rubicante
Team MICHAEL vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Umi (Cthulu) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Team MICHAEL vs. Yuri2, Alice, Id and Ashera


Multitarget - All attacks are MT, however the damage/healing/status hit rates are halved and at maximum 50%.

Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has damage done to them increased by 1.1x and damage done by them decreased to .9x.

Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x

Speed? - The effective speed of one character is set to 120% (1.2x) average speed and may not be increased in any way. The rest of the team's speed is set to 95% (.95) of its normal value and may be increased.

[Nephrite]

Team MICHAEL | Ramza, Feena, Rosa+Rydia(Body Charge), Ditto
[Ramza: Squire, Draw Out, Defense UP, Auto Potion | Feena: All Eggs]
[Rune Blade, Aegis Shield/Thief Hat/Crystal Mail (Feather Mantle if you allow it, Bracer if not)]
[Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind]

So here are a few of the finer points for this floor: As it's Floor 7, one of either Rosa or Rydia should be allowed the Minerva. I realize it is illegal in 4a but it's legal in 4o, so... I'm compromising and saying one of them should be allowed it. I'd say Rydia, which would put her speed at 42, which is above average no matter which average you use. Throw in the Dragon Whisker and it's even further above, but that cuts her Int by too much, I think.

With the Thief Hat, Squire Ramza is 11 speed, which is at least a hair above average. He's also got good Magic Evade and takes 2/3 less damage from Physicals.

Team MICHAEL vs. Sasarai, Tengaar, Hellion and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS) - There's really absolutely nothing here even remotely threatening. Ditto can turn into pretty much anyone and it doesn't change anything.
Team MICHAEL vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Flik - Again, nothing here that's really scary. Luc gets Frogged or just killed by Rydia, Flik can't put much pressure on after that and the damage here is pretty much all magical.
Team MICHAEL vs. Kary, Ho-oh and Rubicante - Ho-oh gets killed before he can cast Sunny Day. Even if he gets it off, though... there's elemental resistances to factor in and Ramza will get off a Draw Out for Protect/Shell.
Team MICHAEL vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Umi (Cthulu) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS) - Marle is killed before she gets a turn, no matter what. Don't think this group can kill Ramza before he gets off a Protect/Shell which makes the rest of the fight easy.
Team MICHAEL vs. Yuri2, Alice, Id and Ashera - Ditto turns into Yuri. Id goes and... let's say he attacks Rydia. I don't see him as killing her. Yuri is 101% average speed... which means he's slower than Ramza or (more importantly) Rydia. Rydia turns him into a Frog. Ramza gets off Protect/Shell and... yeah, there's really not much that can be done. Even assuming Ashera kills Rydia later, Ditto can just revive her or just further buff everyone with Transformed For-Everyone.

[SnowFire]

Team MICHAEL vs. Kary, Ho-oh and Rubicante - Ho-oh gets killed before he can cast Sunny Day. Even if he gets it off, though... there's elemental resistances to factor in and Ramza will get off a Draw Out for Protect/Shell.

Whoa.  What elemental resistances?  I don't think this team has access to fire resistance short of Ditto turning into one of the opposition (and FF4 Minerva doesn't have fire resistance apparently).  And where is this Ho-oh death coming from?  Rydia is already damage capped at 9999 so it's not like Leviathan will help.  Ramza sure isn't OHKOing if he's seen as faster.  Feena has Zap Whip, which apparently hits weakness on Ho-oh, but it's still only average damage being doubled, and Ho-oh is pretty tanky ( 1.28 physical, 2.03 magical  according to the stat topic).  This is ignoring that Ho-oh might well be just plain faster than everyone.

To be sure, if Rydia has the Minerva, then she's slightly faster than average, which then becomes ~135% speed thanks to Body Charge, and then Rydia can status Ho-oh out.  After that point...  hmm.  Feena unloads on Kary / everyone with EotW, Ramza Protect / Shells Rydia / Rosa...  except Kary can paralyze Rosa, but after Feena's turn.  Then Rubicante exterminates everyone not Rosa / Rydia (/Ditto?) with Inferno.  Rydia will have one turn to kill Kary (Flare is non-elemental magic which is how you kill Kary fast, especially after EotW), but Rosa is still paralyzed, and Ditto is not tremendously useful if alive - maybe he became Kary and spams physicals at Rubicante?  Anyway Rubicante gets to unload Inferno #2 which kills Rydia since she doesn't have time to switch to her drain game.  Of course Team Nephrite can bet on Hold missing, but hmm.

If Rydia is denied Minerva....  well, using Meeple's (possibly inflated) figures, Sunny Day'd Inferno is 2.16 PCHP MT damage (!!!).  Apparently Rosa & Rydia survive it at full health in-game, but those are FF4DS Rosa & Rydia where the Magic Defense curve is much more pronounced, and these are FF4o/a Rosa/Rydia where their MDef isn't nearly as relevant (but they get cheatier offense / status in exchange).  Body Charge helps, and with Protect / Shell up, they probably still survive it...  just...  while BC Rosa / Rydia totally can solo Rubicante with healing, that damn Kary turn for Hold is still problematic.  Normally Feena would just blow it away with status healing but she's getting exploded.

Will have to think on it more, but this is definitely the fight where team Nephrite might lose.  (Thanks to having cheaty not-in-Shadow Hearts statuses to trivialize the last fight.)

[Nephrite]

Wow, you're right, I don't know why I thought they had Fire Resistance. I think I was thinking of some of the other equipment, my bad!

It seems like the DS Rubicante's Inferno is Forced MT, I don't know if the FF4o or 4a versions could do that/were forced to.

EDIT: I think that when it says 2500 damage, forced MT... it means that it'd do 2500 on one target, and so it does much less when it's MT...ed? I dunno.

Also, Rosa can be immune to Paralysis, which I'd see as blocking Hold.

EDIT: ...except that comes from the Minerva, blah.

[SnowFire]

I checked with Meeple when I was on this floor.  Nope, that figure is the MT'd damage, not MT-if-it-hypotheticallyhit-just-one-person (which some of the other boss damage stats are, like Golbez's Firagas).  Granted, apparently everyone not named Edge actually survives it in-game, which makes it being such reliable 1.44 PCHP overkill weird in the Dungeon, so I can see interping it a little less harsh since there's only so much credit for *really* overkilling Edge rather than merely killing Edge normally.  (Cecil & Kain have Fire Resistance in-game.)

[Nephrite]

Oh, I see. Yeah, I definitely don't think it's fair to list the damage as nearly that high since it's not nearly that good in-game. >_>

Note to self, replace Rubicante with someone else.

[SnowFire]

Well, I don't think he's *so* bad.  Fire resistance and immunity are about the most common resistance in game, and this is the elemental floor, and FF4DS Rubicante is slower than average speed.  Admittedly, Sunny Day does make it so that you really want immunity ideally, but one fire-immune character with revival basically solos if you can kill Kary fast enough, and Fire resistance swings it too if you can stop Sunny Day from resolving.

[ThePiggyman]

Just as a thought, Feena and Rosa are the only ones who can revive, right? Ramza doesn't have Item anymore. If the Fire-elemental trio nuke Feena and Rosa, which doesn't sound out of the question, can Ramza, Rydia and Ditto manage the next two floors alone?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I wouldn't say the Fire-elemental fight needs changing either. It isn't NeoSpeed-SS-Tidus-level crazy, and we've seen teams get past it. Elemental blocking is the key to the fight, and that's definitely not asking as much as what is potentially needed for some other fights. Just my two cents.

[Nephrite]

Just as a thought, Feena and Rosa are the only ones who can revive, right? Ramza doesn't have Item anymore. If the Fire-elemental trio nuke Feena and Rosa, which doesn't sound out of the question, can Ramza, Rydia and Ditto manage the next two floors alone?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I wouldn't say the Fire-elemental fight needs changing either. It isn't NeoSpeed-SS-Tidus-level crazy, and we've seen teams get past it. Elemental blocking is the key to the fight, and that's definitely not asking as much as what is potentially needed for some other fights. Just my two cents.

If revival is an issue then Ditto turns into Feena. Actually, he probably does that anyway for another Time Gate and End of the World.

EDIT: Also, Rydia has Asura, who can revive everyone. IT HAS A USE! SORT OF!

[ThePiggyman]

Just as a thought, Feena and Rosa are the only ones who can revive, right? Ramza doesn't have Item anymore. If the Fire-elemental trio nuke Feena and Rosa, which doesn't sound out of the question, can Ramza, Rydia and Ditto manage the next two floors alone?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I wouldn't say the Fire-elemental fight needs changing either. It isn't NeoSpeed-SS-Tidus-level crazy, and we've seen teams get past it. Elemental blocking is the key to the fight, and that's definitely not asking as much as what is potentially needed for some other fights. Just my two cents.

If revival is an issue then Ditto turns into Feena. Actually, he probably does that anyway for another Time Gate and End of the World.

EDIT: Also, Rydia has Asura, who can revive everyone. IT HAS A USE! SORT OF!

If Ditto transforms into anyone that isn't one of the three Fire-elementals, he's getting nuked by Rubicant, since he needs that first turn to transform in the first place. Ditto HP is Ditto HP.

Also, lol, Asura is a thing. But alas, with only a 1/3 chance of happening, that's a stretch. =P

[SnowFire]

Feena's Time Gate is Floor 8 according to the wiki.  It'd be an easy pass for Nephrite if Feena could TG unload, because then the team would just kill Rubicante before he got a turn.

Also pass for Team Grefter / Random.  Floor 2 kind of sucks.  Orlandu may well solo even if Rikku / Nina4 die for Grefter, and Team Random has healing / options / tanking.

[Random Consonant]

I pass.  Fogel's likely in no real danger on this floor and everything else I have is gravy.  Less sure on Team Grefter, floor is kind of bad but Orlandu is kind of the only one with damage right now except for Nina against Scarmy, but leaning towards a pass there.  Leaning towards a fail for Team Neph, but I could be argued there.

[Nephrite]

Feena's Time Gate is Floor 8 according to the wiki.  It'd be an easy pass for Nephrite if Feena could TG unload, because then the team would just kill Rubicante before he got a turn.

Also pass for Team Grefter / Random.  Floor 2 kind of sucks.  Orlandu may well solo even if Rikku / Nina4 die for Grefter, and Team Random has healing / options / tanking.

Hmm, I assumed it was 7 since she has it at endgame in all the stat topics... Maybe it's an Ultima/Yamikei thing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, clearly Ditto can turn into Rubicante and then cast Life on everyone!! (no I don't actually believe this but it's kind of funny)

[SnowFire]

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Feena

(And I didn't write this list!)  No reasonable endgame playthrough will have Time Gate.  You'll generally top out around lvl. ~30-35 or so for all your magic levels, which will learn every spell in the game except Time Gate.  If you have time and inclination to grind more, or just use magic a lot, Feena's Fire & Air will probably be levelled - Fire to make End of the World come out faster and make Feena faster, and Fire/Air thanks to Zap Whip and Gadzap and the like, but you need that lvl. 99 Water in addition to lvl. 99 Air order to cast TG.  Even having it be Floor 8 is a bit nice, but there isn't anything else to really do for power grinding, so it's fair enough.

[Nephrite]

Ohh, that makes sense. I didn't realize it required such high levels.

[dude789]

Neph fails, Random and Grefter pass, abstain on Glen.

Edit: Yeah forgot that the second to last fight had Atk Up. That with Nina's bad resources is a bit too much for Grefter. Changing vote for Grefter to a fail.

[ThePiggyman]

I'm going to say Team Michael fails, since I don't see how his team can prevent his revivers from dying, and the next two fights aren't a walk in the park, much less with only 3 people and Sylph and DRAW OUT being your only source of healing from there onwards.

Team Random passes. Hasted MT Fogel laughs at puny floor. No real threats in terms of status either.

Team Grefter, uhhhhh... Geez. Well, Orlandu and Rikku hurling elemental items is... strangely probably enough to get them through this floor. I'll say pass.

Team Glen passes. Lots of revival on the ST floor.

[DjinnAndTonic]

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Feena

(And I didn't write this list!)  No reasonable endgame playthrough will have Time Gate.  You'll generally top out around lvl. ~30-35 or so for all your magic levels, which will learn every spell in the game except Time Gate.  If you have time and inclination to grind more, or just use magic a lot, Feena's Fire & Air will probably be levelled - Fire to make End of the World come out faster and make Feena faster, and Fire/Air thanks to Zap Whip and Gadzap and the like, but you need that lvl. 99 Water in addition to lvl. 99 Air order to cast TG.  Even having it be Floor 8 is a bit nice, but there isn't anything else to really do for power grinding, so it's fair enough.

Bah, water grinding is the easiest one! Poison DMG floors exist. Walk over it once, cast heal/cure on everyone. Rinse/repeat about 30 times. Way shorter than getting air levels.

[Dhyerwolf]

Neph fails. I think the fight is fine since there are other floor 7 options, and Fire resistance, kickass Mdef, and perhaps some kinds of anti magic should deal with it.

[dude789]

Neph fails. I think the fight is fine since there are other floor 7 options, and Fire resistance, kickass Mdef, and perhaps some kinds of anti magic should deal with it.

Ice blitzing handles it pretty well too. Doesn't Rubicante take like 4x damage from it when the cape is open and I don't think he can use Inferno if the cape is closed.

[SnowFire]

Apparently DS's Ice weakness is only +50% damage....  which is still significant, but not quite horrible death.  That said, yes, blitzing definitely can also save the day, his durability is good but not crazy good.

I'm not sure 100% what to make of Meeple's comments since it's been too long, but he says that Minerva is legal "in FF4o."  Checking a FAQ, it says (under Heroine robe)
"Where's It Found - In a Treasure Chest in the Moon's Core."
More importantly, it doesn't have the paralysis immunity on it?  Which squares with my recollection of FF4o, nothing had any constant effects or immunities, it was just stat changes.  Or it was undocumented?  But yeah, thinking about it, think Neph needs both Rosa & Rydia paralysis-immune to win.  Will still abstain for now, though.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Grefter | Orlandu, Rikku, Nina4 (Status Symbol Law) Rikku's Stuff
Okay, elemental stuff is solid...because it focuses. In most of these fights, it will unfocuses and be kind of mehish random semit MT. Grenades may still be the best bet, and are still above average even with the damage hit.
[Floor 2b: The Forboding Forest]
Team Grefter vs. FFT Red Chocobo, Black Chocobo and Yellow Chocobo
Team Grefter vs. FF3 Geomancer, FF5 Geomancer and FFT Geomancer
Team Grefter vs. Mispolm, Sudowoodo and Deneb- Holy crap, Deneb is in the this fight. Can I ask why? No consistent form, obscure, no solid stat topic. I mean, I've never liked this floor overall, but I can at least think of the right link to click with everyone else. Mispolm is kind of tanky and has nearly 2HKO MT. Nina does hit his weakness, which is good (Of course, for MT, Sudo resists, and probably means it will live through a Nina+Rikku turn). There isn't a reviver yet. Sudo does 35% Phys, Mispolm 48% MT Mag or 55% ST Mag. This can certainly take over Rikku and at the moment, there is only ST healing and only one person.
Team Grefter vs. Spar, Frog, Yumi (S3) and Bo
Team Grefter vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)- Eventually this feels like it culminates in a loss. 3 team members at -10% durability and damage. Unless Mispolm's durability is actually quite horrid.

[Nephrite]

Mispolm is a giant Pumpkin, thus, Deneb. I had intended her for her to just use her OB Form though, but perhaps the floor needs some updating.

[SnowFire]

Well, Deneb I see as having a horrible and situational turn-skip, and she's slow and frail.  I'd say the turn-skip is turned off by Status Symbol Law anyway so uh staff beatz.  Not really a factor.

Anyway, let's assume Rikku dies in Fight 3.  Can't they still spam out enough damage to at least kill Sudowoodo round 1?  After that, Orlandu spams drain-healing while Nina spams heals on herself all the way to victory through the rest of the fights, unless there's something I'm missing.

[dude789]

Well, Deneb I see as having a horrible and situational turn-skip, and she's slow and frail.  I'd say the turn-skip is turned off by Status Symbol Law anyway so uh staff beatz.  Not really a factor.

Anyway, let's assume Rikku dies in Fight 3.  Can't they still spam out enough damage to at least kill Sudowoodo round 1?  After that, Orlandu spams drain-healing while Nina spams heals on herself all the way to victory through the rest of the fights, unless there's something I'm missing.

Nina can't exactly spam heals for very long early on so that's something to consider. Healing in BoF4 is surprisingly expensive it's just a lot less noticeable in game because of the back row and Rest/Snooze shenanigans.