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Author Topic: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10  (Read 2687 times)

Cmdr_King

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FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« on: March 21, 2012, 06:30:19 AM »
Remember that anyone facing Ashnard, Ashera, or Dheginsea may have their weapons blessed by the appropriate goddess.

Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10)
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10)
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10)
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7)

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9)
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8)
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8)
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7)

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8)
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7)
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10)
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8)

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8)
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9)
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9)
Pain (10) vs Volug (10)

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 08:12:32 AM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10): Honestly, I'd think most sane levels of boss scaling should give this to Cain. He does 32% of Dheginsea's HP in-game at base level with no supports or Blood Tide (with those, more like 44%), while Dheg only 3HKOs him back. I mean, yes, Dheg would win solo in-game of course but yeah, any reasonable scaling tilts this.
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10): Naesala doubles, which is pretty hard to recover from. Nailah does win almost every stat that isn't speed, but it's probably not enough.
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10): Um yeah, he needs nine turns to win this as far as I'm concerned. Ashera pretty much auto-beats everyone in FE since they're so ST-focused (excluding a couple other bosses who are worse versions of herself!) so prepare for boringness, at least she had a good fight last week which I didn't even bother to math out!
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7): Depends entirely on if I let Dragon avoid counters. I think Athos misses the OHKO, but certainly has a 2HKO, so if Dragon doesn't avoid counters, then Athos sits, counters, then kills. If Dragon can avoid that strategy though, it wins.

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9): Both of these guys are headaches. Kneejerk is Roy though, Ashnard HP is some shade of hideous.
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8): Decent fight probably, since Rutger is so fast he doubles. Still, weapon triangle is a huge concern here. Thinking.
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8): Like the above fight, one doubles and the other has weapon triangle. However, this time, the doubling one has better stats anyway.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7): Quads, and has weapon triangle unless Hector picks up a sword which makes him notably worse. Hand Axes are out, which means Stun's going to be a pain regardless.

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8): Not much respect for Marth. Colm has actual evasion and I bet most of his stats end up better since I don't see Marth as high-levelled as the stat topic.
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7): Thinking that if he could beat Jill, who has generally better non-speed/res stats (and doubled anyway), he can beat Marcia.
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10): Weapon triangle advantage means she always hits while Canas struggles, has Nosferatu, probably doubles if Canas goes for Nos himself, and her overkill luck negates the strategy of praying for Luna crits. (EDIT: Never mind she doubles Canas if he goes for anything other than Flux. That makes things more ugly.)
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8): I -think- Oscar can 2HKO with Javelin -> Silver kill. Or Lute may fail to 2HKO. If either of these are true, I'll be voting for Oscar because move/canto concerns leave him winning tiebreaks to me most likely.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8): In a battle between mediocrity, assume the one with a very high functional defence stat has the edge.
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9): Well, Lethe nulls her usual fire weakness, which makes this actually interesting! Lethe's damage is very poor but she probably doubles and Sanaki has bad durability, so hmm, unsure. EDIT: No doubling? Well then.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9): Soren doubles because Oliver speed is a thing, but he does have Nosferatu which could tilt a slugfest. Uncertain here. Weapon triangle and Adept may make the difference, sure.
Pain (10) vs Volug (10): Pain has 26 attack against stats... hmm. Eyeballing things, average durability should be about 7.5 Def / 23 HP, so Pain does 80% per hit. He has 10 speed to an 11.5 average. Durability is some shade of bad being an FE boss. Volug gets one-rounded untransformed, while halfshifted, he is probably just 2HKOed. He can bait Pain to attack him so he 2HKOs first... if he does. Okay, let's try to figure this out. Volug does about 62% halfshifted with a double, to me (different people scale FE damage differently). Considering the 6 fighters you have, assuming steel or +3 iron forges (same attack), damage done to Pain is... Edward 6, Leonardo 7, Nolan 12, Sothe 11, Aran 9, Meg 7, so an average of 8.7 or so. That puts Pain at about 57% pdur by my scaling. Huh. Was not expecting to vote for Volug, but there you go. Pain's a weird Light FE, amazing damage but shit durability.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:50:47 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 01:23:08 PM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10): Was going to say Dheggy originally, but then went "oh, right, boss scaling!" and that sort of tips it in Cain's favor.
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10): A rare case where Naesala's absurd speed is actually a legitimate advantage over Nailah, rather than just kind of being overkill.
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10): Kneejerk.
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7)" Its like the Dheggy vs. Cain fight; normally Dragon would win, but Athos has boss scaling in his favor now.

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9): Ashnard seems similar to Idoun in that he's a "Special Dragon", so I see Sword of Seals hitting weakness here, which sort of means Ashnard explodes.
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8): Rutger's speed offsets Ephraim's damage...then WTA for Eph kicks in and gives him the edge.
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8): Was going to say Nephenee until I realized this is FE9 Nephenee.  Given that, yeah, Eirika should win.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7): Didn't Elfboy overanalyze this match in the "Lords" topic a while back?  In any event, she's got so many turns, which is a lot of chances for stun, and WTA over his good stuff which adds insult to injury.

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8): Colm doubles and he should at least be competent enough in other areas to match Marth as a result.
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7): Tanks Marcia pretty damn well.
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10): WTA vs. Luna, both have Nosferatu...then Micaiah gets her-*reads Elfboy's description* ...oh, she just doubles if he tries for something unique, nevermind.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8): Kneejerk.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8): Generals like this format.
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9): Kneejerk.  Was going to just say "Sanaki wins" until I was reminded Lethe has a Beorc Guard.  That said, Lethe's doubles are offset by Sanaki being able to avoid counters.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9): WTA, and doubles.
Pain (10) vs Volug (10): Pretty damn sure this is how it would end up in game!  Shut up about how its Volug's Jeigan moment and that it shouldn't count!
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Random Consonant

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 07:06:17 PM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10) - dat boss scalan
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10) - dat speed
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10) - I think?  I'm still not entirely sure how I'd view Ashera but I'd probably do some heavy scaling back on the auras in a duel, but Ashera still probably gets too much time here.
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7)

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9) - I'm sold on the weakness hitting, sure.
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8)
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8) - Sure.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7) - dat amiti

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8) - shrug
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7) - dat defense
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10) - dat spoilin'
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8) - So Oscar has average HP and slightly below average Res, Lute isn't close to 2HKOing.  Welp.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8) - dat defense
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9) - Sanaki is like one point below average speed and Cymbeline isn't impacting it, and I doubt that even under a no Demi Band average Lethe would be fast enough transformed to double, she's only roughly a point above under the Demi Band average.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9) - Doubles, WTA, adept.
Pain (10) vs Volug (10) - I'll bite.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 07:21:33 PM by Random Consonant »

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 02:22:30 AM »
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7) - I don't think Dragon has more than six range, and as far as I know, it doesn't move either. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Heavy

Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8) - Gut reaction due to Eph's general durability. It's quite possible Eph 2HKOs anyway, and I doubt Rutger one-rounds.
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8) - WTD doesn't mitigate Eir's statistical superiority.


Middle

Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7) - I think the only chance Oswin has to lose this is if Micaiah reaches the finals - or Lute, for that matter, but ahahahahahahaha to that.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8) - Eeeeew Lute likely gets 2HKOed by Forged Javelin+Silver somethingsomething.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8) - dat def
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MalcolmMasher

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 10:51:27 PM »
I can't vote on Elincia-10 vs Hector, but as a Hector fanboy I feel compelled to note that under the FE vs FE methods I've been using, Elincia certainly doesn't quad unencumbered Hector (she's 0.8 below average, he's 1.4 below) and can't even break defense against encumbered Hector (with Armads he nulls attacks up to 33.5% PCHP, and even with a Forged Silver Sword and WTA Elincia's strikes only deal 32.3% PCHP. Since Amiti/Stun multiply final damage and not Attack, they wouldn't help.) I realize that many people may not use either of these interpretations, but were I to remain silent I do not know how I would sleep at night.

Aaanyway.

Godlike

Dragon (7) vs Athos (7) : Athos gets two Lunas off (counter, then attack) which definitely beats a scaled Dragon.

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9) : SoS hitting weakness is a good point. I'm a bit leery of letting effective weapons hit Ashnard, since in-game the blessing renders his vulnerabilities purely cosmetic, but the SoS hits Idoun even though the other dragonslayers don't. So it's got a better argument than he does.
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8) : Eph 2HKOs, Rutger 6HKOs. Nope!
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8) : Neph 3HKOs even if two of the hits are Javelins, so she's doing that. Eirika's best bet looks to be a Killing Edge, with which she 4HKOs and doubles. That favors Neph, but hit/avoid/crit look to favor Eirika despite WTA and Wrath, and Neph doesn't have much of a margin of error here. Tricky. I suppose I'll go with Eirika.

Middle
Marth (11) vs Colm (8):  Marth 2HKOs, Colm 4HKOs without quite doubling. DL Marth is glad he shares his game with so much trashy filler.
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7) : Oswin 2HKOs, Marcia 10HKOs and doubles. Open and shut.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8) : Oscar 2HKOs with Javelin + Silver, Lute either 3HKOs with Thunder or gets doubled with Elfire.

Light
Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8) : See Oswin vs Marcia, really.

Pyro

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2012, 01:47:10 AM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10): Imagine what would happen if there were 4 Caineghis' on Dheggy. Yeah.
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10): I have to raise the question of whether it's worth respecting him doubling her since they both double everything anyway.
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10): And now Ashera eats everything.
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7): Imagine what 4 Athos Lunas would do here.

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9)
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8)
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8): I don't think Eirika doubles here, but stat advantages is kind of sweet.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7): And I don't think Elincia doubles here. Hector mans a hit Bravex2 and 2HKOs. I guess Stun could tilt it but I dunno.

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8)
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7): Marcia 10 sure, Marcia 9 no.
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10): Better stats for this.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8): Not seeing this as a problem for Oscar. 2HKOs, is 3HKO'd, goes first. I guess she counters and he doesn't but not a problem for him in this situation.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8): Fun factoid: Even with being doubled taken into account, Gilliam is STILL ~2x more durable than Innes
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9): I... guess.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9): Adept and so on.
Pain (10) vs Volug (10): Blah.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 02:40:35 AM by Pyro »

dude789

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2012, 02:02:31 AM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10)
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10)
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10)
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7)

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9)
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8)
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8)
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7)

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8)
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7)
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10) Wow, Micaiah might end up winning middle.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8)

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8)
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9)
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9)
Pain (10) vs Volug (10)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 02:23:17 AM »
Eirika indeed doesn't double, checking things. (She's +6.5, Nephenee is +3.2). This assumes you see all post-Chapter 13 bonus exp is Knight Ward-enabled, but I definitely do.

That said, Eirika 3HKOs with either Killer (against Killer average) or Silver (without) so she can maintain her evasion. (Just misses 2HKO with Sieglinde anyway.) Nephenee 3HKOs back. The problem is that the hit/evade comparison is woeful. Nephenee's hit is 6 points below average, so make that 7 above with WTA (assuming +12.5% for WTA) against Eirika's 50/54 evasion depending on if you see Killer as a valid path to victory. Eirika's hit meanwhile is overkill, above average even after WTD against Nephenee's almost non-existent evade. So she has a much, much easier time completing her 3HKO. Yes, Neph can use Javelins, tanking her hit by a further 15, which gives her a 35% hit rate at best, so even doubling her effective number of actions she still gets in fewer raw hits than Eirika. Toss in Eirika having initiative and I don't think this is that close.

Hector/Elincia is tricky. If you don't see her quadding, it's a good fight. I analysed it before and came down with Elincia winning, but I no longer have the numbers for that and don't care to re-derive them. If you care, my comments on the match last time it happened are here:
Quote
Hector can use Armads and still not be doubled (barely), but then he hits less than half the time. He does 2HKO, but Elincia is, by her second attack, going to activate Stun, which is like the damage of a bonus attack, then avoids a counter, then Hector doesn't attack next turn... so it's like three bonus attacks. She'll have five attacks before Hector gets two, and that's almost all the way to killing him. Gets even worse if she gets a Stun chain going. Point is, Hector's not winning. Hand Axe tricks are of no help since they hit approximately never, unlike Javelins. Yay weapon triangle and Hector skill. Honestly, his best bet is to 2HKO with an Iron Sword, which is more accurate... but he's still losing accuracy/evade concerns by a notable amount.

Obviously different ways of scaling FE damage can tilt this, Malcolm's method rewards high def more against low attack which certainly makes sense though isn't how I vote. Thaaat said, the big thing that has changed since that analysis, at least for me, is that the equal exp viewpoint. With that, Hector loses 1 level (not a big difference), while Elincia gains, compared to average, seven extra levels (19 to a 12 average). And these extra 7 levels come with insane growths (65% str, 70% spd, 60% luck, although she caps str early so that's slightly muted). Basically you can pretty much jack up her speed by about 5 points compared to what the stat topic says, so instead of being 1 point above average she's actually about 6. Even against the half-shifted average she would still be ~4 points above average, which is enough here.

Granted this is still absolutely in range of going the other way based on different voting practices (in particular, I'm aware not everyone votes on equal exp). Just felt like getting some numbers out there.

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 02:54:27 AM »
Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10) - Dheginsea.  Just like in-game. 
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10) - Naesala.  He's just that awesome. 
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10) - Ashera. 
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7) - Dragon.  Just like in-game.

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9) - Ashnard.
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8) - Ephraim.
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8) - Nephenee.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7) - Hector.  Poor Mercy skill.

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8) - Marth.
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7) - Marcia.
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10) - Micaiah.
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8) - Lute.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8) - Innes.
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9) - Sanaki.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9) - Soren.
Pain (10) vs Volug (10) - Pain.
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SnowFire

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2012, 03:25:24 AM »
Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10)
I'll be able to vote this soonish, at least.
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10)
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7)

Heavy

Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8)
So Eirika doesn't double according to DHE?  Okay then, that's a surprise.  Anyway, the FE9 stat topics assume for some reason that you don't forge accuracy, when accuracy is the most useful thing to forge up.  Even keeping the same money amount, most FE9 characters will cheerfully trade -1 damage (that +4->+5 transition is EXPENSIVE) for +20 Hit.  And...  hit isn't really something that gets entirely scaled, for me, it's possible for an entire cast to have very good hit (just like, say, non-Lulu / Yuna FFX characters don't have negative evasion because they're below average), and even if you do scale hit by cast, then Laguz / Ike / Elincia / etc. don't really get a benefit, so it still helps.  Anyway, with no doubles, I see the evasion concerns Elf brings up as not favoring Eirika nearly as much, and then there's Wrath to worry about, so.
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7)
Yeah, I think I go with equal XP's suggested level bonuses (if not level "penalties"), which makes a match that already favors Elincia be much more secure.

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8)
So if Colm 4HKOs, can Marth sneak a Falchion heal in?  And will it matter?  Colm double -> counter, heal, Colm double (survive!) -> counter, attack?  Colm has to go first, Marth can waste turns Falchion heal spamming.  Of course Marth has to actually 3HKO through the evasion, and he can't forge up Falchion's accuracy.  Bah, close, but don't think Marth can handle it.
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7)
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10)
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8)
See above comments on FE9 forging, Oscar loses a single point of damage (oh noes) to mess up Lute's evade game.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8)
I would probably vote for Innes if Snipers had a useful special to kick in a la FE10 Marksmen, but no, they have a scrubby auto-hit.
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9)
Yeah Lethe is kind of bad.
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2012, 05:08:08 AM »
I definitely don't agree with an entire cast being super-accurate (that would involve scaling against enemy evade, which is a problem when some games literally don't have enemies that evade). Forging hit would help anyway, yes, because characters using unforgeable weapons would run into problems, and there are a decent number of those. Neph and Oscar probably gain around 5-8 hit relatively. I still don't think that's enough to tilt either fight, mind!

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 04:55:41 PM »
Accuracy scaling should be absolute for sub-100% accuracies (and factored into damage averages), and relative for >100% accuracies. At that point the accuracy stat is telling you whose hit rate tanks first when facing something that DOES dodge.

So +20 Hit for everyone would improve the base accuracy if it was below 100% (and correspondingly increase the damage average), but if the 'average' is now 120% then someone who dodges 50% of the time should have 50% dodge rate averaged over the entire cast, with more for those with worse accuracies and less evade vs. those with higher accuracies. How you determine base evade is up to you (scaling it to find out what % durability it provides like what NEB did with D&D 4.0 works)

Changed Eirika vs. Nephenee per NEB's analysis. Will rethink Elincia vs. Hector. Elincia doesn't double Armads Hector according to the topic but I'm not sure how many more levels she should get nor how Laguz should affect the averages and so on.

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 05:20:34 PM »
Pyro's method makes for balanced casts, but I'm not sure I agree with it since I hate changing views between games so much. Still, it's given me something to think about if I turn it into a hard rule.

Godlike

Dheginsea (10) vs Cainaghis (10) - Caineghis loves my boss scaling.
Nailah (10) vs Naesala (10) - Yeah.
Ashera (10) vs Tibarn (10) - Ashera is broken in FE duels. One day FE will get MT attacks!
Dragon (7) vs Athos (7) - He casts the magics that makes the dragons fall down

Heavy

Roy (6) vs Ashnard (9) - And just think, Roy already HAS a legendary weapon and didn't need that arbitrary "blessed by a Goddess" corollary
Rutger (6) vs Ephraim (8)
Nephenee (9) vs Eirika (8)
Elincia (10) vs Hector (7) - Doubling for everyone!

Middle

Marth (11) vs Colm (8)
Marcia (9) vs Oswin (7)
Canas (7) vs Micaiah (10)
Oscar (9) vs Lute (8) - My kneejerk here was Lute, but I read Elfboy's and Malcom's arguments and was convinced.

Light

Innes (8) vs Gilliam (8)
Sanaki (10) vs Lethe (9) - Beorcgaurd?
Oliver (10) vs Soren (9) - Adept Adept Adept
Pain (10) vs Volug (10) - Pain sucks, go Volug.

Random Consonant

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2012, 07:29:54 PM »
Beorcguard doesn't matter for Lethe vs. Sanaki at all, Sanaki 2HKOs even without hitting weakness (barely 2HKOs average, Lethe is below) and she isn't doubled.  Lethe sucks.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2012, 05:36:38 AM »
I thought FE9 Lethe was pretty good since she starts Shifted and full shifted Laguz stats were pretty awesome? I thought Laguz were only trash in the DL because most can't shift fast enough/ long enough? Or is there some common interp where full-shifted Laguz are included in the averages at their full stats?

Cmdr_King

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2012, 05:57:27 AM »
Last I checked beorc guard doesn't matter anyway in this case, because it only negates the bonus from Laguz [X] weapons, not from innate weaknesses like Fire or Arrows.
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Meeplelard

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2012, 06:00:11 AM »
Lethe using equal levels does actually double Sanaki when Shifted.  Sanaki is -3 vs. Average, Lethe is +1 post Shift.  Unsure how "Equal EXP" ends up, though I don't suspect it changes too much?


That said, Laguz have issues in FE9 in other areas.  The big one is their weapon sucks.   Its not a big deal for, say, the Royals who have absurd stats to make up for it, but standard Laguz have more "good" stats but they're not good enough to make up for weapons that are on par with Iron Weapons (in particular, the Cat Claw is equal to an Iron Axe), Lethe's strength is only about 3 points above average, which is nowhere near enough to make up for such a weak weapon.

As a reminder...
Cat Claw is 8 Might.  Silver Sword is 13 Might, Forged Silver Sword is 18 Might.  Swords < Other weapons in for Might.  She's got 3 more Strength an "Average", so compared to an "Average Sword user", she's doing 7 damage less than average.


That said, you could argue Sanaki takes hits bad enough that she gets beaten anyway.  White her defense isn't too bad (Rudol Gem saves her so much its not even funny), but the HP is atrocious. 

The thing is, however...

You need to argue Lethe kills in 3 hits, since there's no way she's surviving 3 Sanaki turns (hell, given her averagish Magic durability, surviving *2* turns is questionable.)  The turn order goes something like this:

Lethe Attacks
Sanaki Counters w/ Cymbeline
Lethe Doubles
Sanaki Attacks, using Range, so no Lethe counter
Lethe attacks
Sanaki counters, Lethe dies

So if Lethe doesn't kill by that 3rd hit, she loses, and that's assuming she lives through Sanaki's 2nd turn, which is questionable enough.
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Random Consonant

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Re: FEDL Round 2- In which there is proportionally more FE10
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 06:32:29 AM »
Sanaki is -3 below assuming a halfshifted Laguz average, which I personally disfavor using (and I suspect others do as well).  Using a no-halfshift average puts her, as mentioned only -1 below.  I would apply the same standard to FE9 for the numbers I am citing, but such numbers don't exist, I'm too lazy to grab them, and I suspect it would not impact the averages that matter most here (speed, resistance and damage) enough to tilt the outcome of this fight to me.  (Edit: okay I actually went and checked, speed average drops by about 0.2 assuming untransformed stats for non-royals/Muarim/laguz who start with a full transform gauge, I imagine the Res average drop would be similarly pathetic though likely slightly higher due to dragons.  Damage at this point isn't worth going into.)

To Djinn, FE9 Laguz transformation bonuses are not so good as to bring a character who is noticeably below average in every stat that matters sans HP to noticeably above, and as mentioned by Meeple, FE9 Laguz weapons *blow*.  Lethe is doing less than 30% PCHP per hit, which probably lets Sanaki survive a double, if barely (Sanaki physical durability is bad but not *that* bad), which is all she needs to do to win here, assuming you even take averages where she is.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 07:27:31 AM by Random Consonant »