Final Fantasy XIII bosses

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm making this a separate topic from the main FF13 PC thread because that one is already quite lengthy due to discussion.

*FF13 spoilers, obviously*


For now, this thread only includes Cid (since he's in CK's tournament), but I may get others as time allows. They're a tricky bunch to test and scale so this will be a slow project.

Offensively, FF13 bosses are straightforward enough, outside of perhaps trying to judge their turns. I'll provide speed notes as best I can. Note that bosses use several attacks off a single ATB gauge similar to the way PCs can, and I will indicate multiple attacks used in a combo with a slash, or with a multipler. So, Attack/Ruin x2 means one attack, followed by two Ruins.

Defensively they are trickier, because of how the chain system. There are three ways to look at their HP. The simplest is to scale them against 3 Commandos smashing them in the face, but this leads to a significantly inflated HP score, because this is not in fact the optimum way to do damage in FF13 long-term. I don't recommend using this, but I'll provide the base average damage anyway for reference.

The second way is to build chain for a while (often until the stagger point, although the exact break-even point may vary), THEN switch to damage-dealing mode. For this method, I have decided to scale damage against the boss' chain resistance and stagger point. Yes, I could scale it against randoms instead, but not only is that more effort, it would mean that I would have to find a separate way to reflect the boss' chain resistance. Since chain resistance is hugely important for an FF13 enemy's durability, I felt it made more sense to factor it in directly in this way.

The third way is to include debuffs and buffs, which are quite potent, but only certain PCs have them. For Chapter 10-11 bosses, I have decided to include Bravery/Faith (available to both Sazh and Lightning) and Deprotect/Deshell (available to Vanille, Lightning, Sazh, and in C11, Fang), but not the more limited Haste or Imperil. It felt like a reasonable balance. The Bravery/Faith turn will also be used to apply a second buff, which only matters for chain reasons. I'll scale debuffs against debuff resistance of the target, which is generally a shaky view but I think in FF13's case it makes the most sense. YMMV, use the numbers as you see fit as always! Anyway.

As always, all scaling assumes full offence, i.e. the boss just sits there and takes damage; it does not factor in any buffs the boss might use, nor any need the PCs may have to heal or reduce damage.




Cid Raines
"My will is my own! My will is my strength!"

PC stats for Cid

Average HP: ~1650
Average offence: ~380

Average COM damage: 3372
Average RAV chain vs. Cid: +5.4% (+6.8% with two buffs and two debuffs)

Optimum offence, including chain: 13 rounds of RAV/RAV/RAV (to Stagger), 3 rounds of COM/COM/COM = fatal damage in 46.35 PC turns (5.30 PCHP)

Optimum offence, including chain and SYN/SAB: Three rounds of RAV/SAB/SYN, two rounds of RAV/RAV/RAV, five rounds of COM/COM/COM = fatal damage in 28.14 PC turns (3.22 PCHP)


Cid's stats and attacks

HP: 226,800
Chain resistance: 90 (stagger point: 300%)

Immune to Daze and Death. 90% resistance to Pain and Fog. 30% resistance to Curse. 0% resistance to Provoke and Dispel. 70% resistance to everything else.

Speed notes: Probably above average, but not dramatically... he tends to get turns more rapidly than PCs. I'd guess around 110-120% but this is definitely a rough estimate. His physical attack combos take a while to resolve, but they tie up his target so there's no real gain for them... although the distinction may matter in a team fight. For status timers, note that a "round" is about 8 seconds at this point.

Cid has four forms: Offensive, Defensive, Recovery, and Seraphic. He can switch between the first three at will, though doing so takes approximately half a turn. He must do this to start the battle as well, which causes his first attacking turn to lag a bit.

Offensive Shift
Attack: 655 physical damage over 5 hits
Ruin x3: 489 magic damage over 3 hits
Ruinga: 361 magic damage, large AoE

Defensive Shift
Guard: Damage received reduced by 90% while stance lasts

Recovery Shift
Cure x4: 1368 healing (0.6%) over 4 hits
Esuna: Removes most recently inflicted status ailment

Metamorphose: Only available below 60% HP. Switches to Seraphic form and immediately uses Seraphic Ray.

In this form, Cid halves all physical and magical damage.

Seraphic Ray: 778 non-typed damage, MT. Removes all positive and negative status from both Cid and his targets. Usable as a free action after Metamorphose, as well as at will thereafter. Based off Cid's Magic stat but not subject to magic defence, Deshell, or Fog.

Attack/Knock Down: 1483 physical damage over 9 hits
Attack/Ruin x2: 655 physical over 5 hits, followed by 326 magic over 2 hits; 981 total
Ruinga: 361 magic damage, large AoE
Guard: Damage received reduced by 90% while stance lasts

Protect/Shell/Vigilance/Haste: Casts these four effects in quick succession. Speed up by ~28%, damage received down by one third. Vigilance can probably be largely ignored in the DL. Protect/Shell last 150 seconds, Vigilance/Haste 90.

Poisonga/Deprotega/Deshellga/Dazega: 196 magic damage over 4 hits, MT. 24% chances to add Poison (1% max HP per 3 seconds) and Daze (doubles damage of next hit, can't take action). 30% chances to add Deprotect and Deshell (+89% damage received from physicals/magic respectively). All last 60 seconds.

*For Daze, it should be noted that the first hit of Cid's physical chains only does 129, so there's only a slight improvement there.

Curasa: Heals 5% of lost HP

Doom: Usable in all forms. Target dies after 3 minutes pass, ignores immunity. Cid will only use this if 20 minutes have already elapsed in the battle, i.e. if you're trying to win via an obnoxious turtle strategy.


Comments: Cid's high chain resistance means that depending on the offence you employ, you might even kill him before staggering him, and you will almost certainly kill him shortly after you do stagger him. Aside from that, well, he's a limit boss. At high HP all he can really do is toss out 3HKOs. Once below 60%, though, he becomes very mean... halves damage for the rest of the battle, has a nasty buff on top of that to make it thirding with great speed, can damage+dispel (at the cost of his own buffs), and has near-OHKO physical damage. If that's not enough against stallers he can try for status, as Deprotect or Daze are both terrifying. His main downfall is foes who can bypass his limit phase.



Galenth Dysley (Barthandelus) (form 2)
"Either way, the end is at hand. But what of yourselves? Will you enjoy the festivities beside me?"

PC stats for Barthandelus

Average HP: ~4525
Average offence: ~770
Average physical/magical damage reduction: ~10% (as with Snowfire's notes, I decided not to factor this into the listed damage below, but I recommend either using this reduction, or upping the average damage/HP figures)

Average COM damage: 10044
Average RAV chain vs. Barthandelus: +14.9% (+16.0% with two buffs and two debuffs)

Optimum offence, including chain: Two rounds of 3RAV, one 3COM, one 3RAV (to Stagger), 6 rounds of 3COM = 29.3% damage in ten rounds. Do this ~3.4 times = fatal damage in 102.49 PC turns (11.71 PCHP)

Optimum offence, including chain and SYN/SAB: Three rounds of RAV/SAB/SYN, one 3COM, one 3RAV (to stagger), two 3RAV, four 3COM = 74.2% damage in eleven rounds. Fatal damage in 44.45 PC turns (5.08 PCHP)


Barthandelus' stats and attacks

HP: 3,307,500
Chain resistance: 60 (stagger point: 200%)
Halves all FF13 elements (fire, ice, lightning, water, wind, earth).
*Barthandelus' elemental resistance is factored in for chain effects, but not for damage (since the latter would be doublecredit in the DL)

70% resistance to Deprotect, Deshell, Slow, and Imperil. 30% resistance to Provoke. 0% resistance to Dispel. Immune to everything else.

Speed notes: See lasers for specific notes, but they're very fast. Other actions are a bit below average, roughly 90% speed. Note that rounds are slower than earlier in the game because everyone now has 5 ATB segments... around 10 seconds.

Red laser: 473 evadable magic damage, 1% chance of Fog for 45 seconds. This attack can be used at approximately 330% average speed.

After 60 seconds, Barthandelus takes a turn to enter phase 2, losing the above ability and gaining:
Blue laser: 263 physical damage, 1% chance of Pain for 45 seconds. Two instances of this attack are used at roughly 150% speed (so 300% overall, but they come roughly in pairs). This attack does not disrupt Barthandelus' turns in any way.
Poisonga: 189 magic damage, large AoE. 80% chance to add Poison (1% max HP per 3 seconds) for 60 seconds.
Cursega: 189 magic damage, large AoE. 80% chance to add Curse (laserspam disrupts targets) for 60 seconds.
Dazega: 189 magic damage, large AoE. 80% chance to add Daze (doubles damage of next hit, can't take action) for 22.5 seconds.

After 60 more seconds, Barthandelus takes a turn to enter phase 3, changing his laser abilities as follows:
Red laser: 263 evadable magic damage, 1% chance of Fog for 45 seconds. This attack is used at approximately 330% average speed, and does not interfere with other actions.
Blue laser: 263 physical damage, 1% chance of Pain for 45 seconds. This attack can be used at approximately 330% average speed, and does not interfere with other actions. (Yes, he spams both laser types at once for about 6 hits per round.)
[Still has the same spells as above on his "real" turns.]

After 60 more seconds, Barthandelus takes a turn to enter phase 4, resetting his chain gauge and gaining new attacks:
Apoptosis: Deals evadable non-typed damage equal to 10% of target's current HP, MT. Removes all positive and negative status from both Barthandelus and his targets.
Thanatosian Laughter: 1552 evadable non-typed damage over 16 hits, MT.

Doom: Target dies after 3 minutes pass, ignores immunity. Barthandelus will only use this if 20 minutes have already elapsed in the battle, i.e. if you're trying to win via an obnoxious turtle strategy.


Comments: Depends a bit on how you deal with that form-shifting. If you hold him to strictly like in-game... he has six turns of doing what amounts to 4HKOing, then six more turns which are similar but mix in various status to fuck over PCs, then six more turns with slightly better offence (3HKOish in practice), then finally gets dispel and can 2HKO in practice. Most PCs can't blitz him down before status wrecks them (unless they immune both daze and curse somehow) but few Godlike bosses fear this package. Low Godlike probably. If you let him hurry it up the way we normally don't worry about "can't be used until turn X" restrictions then he gets better, needs to waste three turns on shifting but then has the 2HKOing off good durability thereafter. Still, losing those turns hurts, so he may not be -that- much better. Goes to mid-high Godlike on HP alone if you use the COM/RAV only average but I don't think much of that.

[SnowFire]

First off, crediting the Game Mechanics guide in GameFAQs for much of this information, no way I'd be patient enough to do this all myself.  Anyway, some notes on the final bosses of FF13, though feel free to add to this, it's probably incomplete.

Oh and spoilers, duh.




Orphan



"We are the abandoned one, born but now to die."

HP: 6,780,000
Chain resistance: 70 (averagish)
Stagger point: 400%
Speed: His first turn is very fast (your ATB gague will just have charged when Judgment goes off, but you wouldn't have come close to executing the action.)  After that...  uh...  feels like he skips some turns or something even before you have Haste up, so I'd be inclined to say a little slow.  Maybe 95% average?

Elemental Resistance:
Physical damage: Halved
Magic damage: Halved

...so, pretty much damage halving.  Doesn't get any of the normal elements though (Fire, etc.).

Status Resistance:
Figures are out of 100, so 95% resist = the odds of a status landing are multiplied by .05, 30% resist = *.70, etc.

95% resistance to Deprotect, Deshell, Slow, Imperil, & Curse.
99% resistance to Poison.
30% resistance to Provoke.
0% resistance to Dispel.
Immune to Pain, Fog, Daze, & Death.

This looks a lot better than it actually is.  #1, FF13 Saboteurs get multiple bites at the apple, since the equivalent of a Silence spell in other games is 5 shots of Fog in FF13.  #2, the chain affects status resistance, where a 100% Chain bonus is a multiplier of 1.  In other words, at worst, if you can Stagger Orphan (knocking him to a Chain of 500%), you have 5x the chance of hitting a status.  A base 100% slow effect would then have a 25% chance of hitting rather than a 5% chance. 

Note that POIZN is pretty cool against Orphan but he does have 99% resist, meaning you really do have to wait for a Stagger to reliably get that one off.  In addition, if you're really set
on statusing Orphan, you can have a Paradigm with 2x Saboteurs in it where Fang & Vanille will boost each other's hit rates even further.  You might want to take these resistances less literally since PC FF13 status is so good compared to other games.... for all that it merely means his status resistance is "excellent" rather than "functionally immune."  (But it does mean stuff like Raquel's POIZN BITE which ignores resistance gets him.  In fact Raquel has a good argument against Orphan via Poison + Dragon Edge cheese...  if she can somehow scrounge up perfect status immunity.)

PC averages for Orphan:
This is unapologetically SnowFire's set as a baseline, do not take this as gospel, theoretically all 6 characters should be used with a generic mix of all reasonable accessories if spread across 3 characters.  Instead for sanity's sake I will use just the 3 people in my party (Light/Snow/Hope) and the accessories I equipped them with.

HP: 7745 (includes a maxed Diamond Bangle & Adamant Bangle equipped for +1000 / +1500 HP)
Attack stats: Snow has 1600 Str.  Light has 915 str / 1160 mag.  Hope has 1951 mag.
Commando blasting away with no buffs vs. 100% chain (5x Attack / 5x Ruin): ~11200.  [13100 (Snow), 13000 (Commando Hope which I didn't set or have), 7500 (Lightning)] (This is with +500 Str on Snow and +500 Mag on Hope for why Lightning lags.)  Note that the Chain is going to be way higher than 100% most of hte time.
Commando blasting away with buffs vs. 500% chain: ~80000.
Commando blasting away with buffs & Orphan debuffed vs. 500% chain: ~160000+.
Defenses: 11.6% resistance to all physical & magic damage. (20% on Light, 15% on Snow, 0% on Hope.)  Not included in move notes below, so reduce their damage by what you think is fair.

Note that Commando damage will rise a bit in a 3x Commando Cerberus party thanks to the party bonus from the Commando role, but also that this party isn't always feasible depending on your team & paradigm slots.  Note also that as usual for final boss in a game with a postgame, if you go do some sidequesting on Pulse first, Orphan will be easier, and if you do a lot of sidequesting, Orphan will be delicious pie.  This set is quite possibly underpowered since when I re-fought Orphan to get these notes, I died 7 times (though 4x was bad luck on the instant death - why must you target Lightning, then hit her through Veil & Cherub's Crown?!).  Time travel to AF 0 complete, Cocoon is saved, no need for your help Serah.  Make of that what you will.

Forms
Orphan has 3 forms: Consummate Darkness, Consummate Light, and Opposite Extremes.  It opens with a switch to Light.  They've got slightly different skill sets; the Dark form can use an attacking orb while the Light form can have some minor regeneration.  Orphan will switch every ~2 - 2:30 minutes.  He'll also switch at the end of a stagger chain.  (Insert cursing as the party all dies from Merciless Judgment after going all-out on offense.)  After his HP drops to <40% he will switch immediately to Opposite Extremes and hit you with Judgment.  The switch rules remain, but if Orphan would ever switch (because 2 mins 30 second passed, or because he came out of a stagger chain), he'll Judgment-> Opposite Extremes again.

If you stagger Orphan, note that he does not get stunlocked like many enemies in FF13.  He can't be launched and all his commands have a Keep >= 90, so he'll keep his offense rolling under a stagger.

All of Orphan's attacks ignore evasion.

At beginning of battle / on form switch
Merciless Judgment - All targets, deals 99% of current HP base, but can be modified by all the usual damage multipliers.  This can be fatal.  Notably this can be due to Deprotect or Daze buffing the base damage.  If you don't have a Sentinel up for Fringeward and are poisoned, this is likely Game Over as well, since the Poison will kill you before you can respond.  (Protip: Have a Sentinel ready at the end of every Stagger, and watch the limit like a hawk.)

This is basically a limit on hitting 40% HP, and he can go right away and interrupt with this.

All chain is removed from Orphan after Judgment.  (Irrelevant when it Judgments as a result of finishing a stagger chain of course.)

Consummate Light (Stalker owl)
Progenitorial Wrath
650 magic damage.
50% chance of instant death.  Counts as a magical attack (so resisted by Shell) but damage is determined by Orphan's physical attack.
Won't use above 80% health.
Did I mention that main character death in FF13 is game over, by the way.  Because it is.

Swipe
1250 physical damage, large area of effect (Seemed to hit everyone all the time for me, though).  Large disruption / stun on hit (high cut.)
AI's favorite move by far.

Requiem
2750 physical damage.  High variance.  (1900-3700)

(Regeneration orb)
The FAQs list this as a "move" but I wouldn't count it as such even if that's how it's coded in-game (I'd just give less Orphan speed respect for occasionally skipping a turn...  if that's even true, which I'm not sure it is, since the Black Orb can laser you pretty fast after Judgment).   Anyway, the white orb will heal Orphan for 2500 HP a shot every turn or so.  Negligibile.  (.01% HP per turn regen, fear.)

Form switch
At the end of a stagger chain, or after 2 minutes and 30 seconds, Merciless Judgment + switch to Consummate Darkness, or upon ~40% health (2700000), Merciless Judgment + switch to Opposite Extremes.


Consummate Darkness (Barthandelus)

Vile Exploitation
1250 magic damage, hits everyone.
Drains damage equal to damage dealt (which, even with 3x this value, is totally neglibile - like .02% of its HP.)

Chains of Torment
Hits all. 100% Poison.  Seems to randomly add one-two other 100% status as well, including Debrave, Defaith, Fog, Pain, & Curse.  Possibly others as well.

One FAQ claims that it adds just Poison itself but also any debuffs given to Orphan as well.  Not sure if there was a US / Japanese mechanics change, but in teams without a SAB I've definitely seen other nastiness come attached with it.  I didn't run a Sab so I can't confirm if this is still true as a bonus.

Another FAQ claims it's a specfic list of Debrave / Pain + Poison, but since I've seen it hand out Fog & Defaith, uh.  It also claims there's magic damage off this move but I didn't see any.  This move probably requires more research.

Ailmentation
Adds 4 random debuffs, each with a 70% hit rate, that will last for 60 seconds (~8 rounds?). 
Possibilities: Deprotect, Deshell, Slow, Curse, Poison, Pain, Fog, Daze.
Won't use above 80% health.

(Lasers orb)
~1200 damage.
The FAQs list this as a "move," but I've seen the lasers fire quite fast after Merciless Judgment, so not sure I agree with that and would just hand it out as a passive bonus in this form.  Anyway, the black orb will harry the party with lasers every turn or so.  This is how Darkness does damage outside of Exploitation.

Form switch
At the end of a stagger chain, or after 2 minutes and 30 seconds, Merciless Judgment + switch to Consummate Light, or upon ~40% health (2700000), Merciless Judgment + switch to Opposite Extremes.


Opposite Extremes

Dies Irae
4450 damage, area of effect.
Adds Deprotect, Deshell at 99% hit rate for 60 seconds (~8 turns).
If you are deprotected/deshelled (say from an earlier Dies Irae or from Ailmentation), double this roughly. (~8500-8900 damage)
Counts as both a physical & magical attack (resisted by both Protect and Shell, and future Dies Iraes take advantage of both Deprotect & Deshell if still active!).
AI note: They don't use this move very often.

Progenitorial Wrath - As above

Vile Exploitation - As above.  This is by far OE's favorite move, they will cast this >50% of the time.

Form switch -> Merciless Judgment - As above, but will formshift back to Opposite Extremes, so not much of a shift.  Happens if you don't stagger Orphan in 2 minutes & 30 seconds or post-Stagger.  (Yes, both FAQs claim he doesn't have this move in this form, it's a lie, he does.)

(Orbs)
2500 regen
1400 damage
Both orbs are active.  The laser orb's damage rises very subtly by +17.5% (~1400?) if I read the FAQ right, couldn't exactly tell in-game with all the buffs interfering with measuring it.

--

If the fight somehow continues for half an hour, Orphan will Doom the party.  After that there'll be 3 minutes to win before immunity-bypassing instant death kills you.  In other words, 225 turns to the Doom turn, and 248 turns to actually win the fight at with 8 seconds a round.  This is how Orphan kills ToV Repede.

If you blow a Summon on Orphan...  well the good news is that Zantetsuken at 999% chain is going to hurt a lot.  You better finish the fight with that, though, becuase otherwise Orphan will heal back to 40% health, the start of his Opposite Extremes phase.  Yuna is stuck using Anima as a finisher.  (You will learn this fact exquisitely if you mistime your Zantetsuken to hit after the Stagger has worn off.)

--

Orphan's durability

Note also that all these figures are with Orphan's defenses baked in.  If you see ITD damage from other games as penetrating Orphan's damage halving (which...  depends, frankly it should be looked at on a case-by-case basis since there's no particular way to break these defenses in FF13 I believe), then cut all these figures in half but then add the damage halving.  (Also matters if Orphan somehow gets healing from others, that healing is twice as effective.) 

Okay I think calculating FF13 boss durability is more art than science anyway, although if DHE or someone else wants to try and calculate this in other ways go ahead.  The fight with Orphan probably goes something like this:
Stagger Consummate Light
Stagger Consummate Darkness
trigger the 40% limit - with Sabs, probably in the above Stagger; otherwise in Consummate Light round 2, either normally or on a new stagger chain depending on how much damage you got in.  Possibly get owned by a surprise Judgment.
Stagger Opposite Extremes
...That's probably not quite enough without Sabs, though it should just take one final Stagger if you run a Sab. 

The point is, it will take ~3.5 stagger chains to kill Orphan.  Relentless Assault (2x RAV, 1x COM) can add 50% Chain in a round.  Orphan's Stagger point is 400%.  So:
6x rounds of pure RA to Stagger (starts at 100).
While hasted, you can eke out about 7 turns of offense before Orphan recovers from Stagger.

So...  13 rounds of offense per stagger chain.  At 3.5 stagger chains to kill, that's 45 rounds of offense.  That said, let's call it 3 stagger chains by assuming Sabs, higher levels, finishing with a summon, etc.  So that'd be 3*13 = 39 rounds of offense = 39 / 2.5 = 15.6 PCHP. 

As an additional tidbit of info, the target time at the end of battle recap (for me at least) was 10:21.  If we arbitrarily call half that time "support" and half "offense", and use 8 second rounds, that gives us 621/2 = 310; 310 / 8 = 38 rounds of offense = 38/2.5 = 15.5 PCHP.

Of course these figures are ridiculous so I don't really recommend taking them literally.  That said.  Even if held against Saboteur hype + more crystarium levels + FF13 battle system is too fast penalty + stop hiding the plot outside the game penalty, Orphan is probably around 7-10 effective PCHP (equivalently 3.5-5 PCHP with halving all damage), which is super badass.

Orphan in the DL is a monster.  You better have *perfect* status immunity, immunity so perfect it gets debuffs like Deprotect and Deshell, and preferably immune gravity as well.  (In-game, this is why Hope is so insanely important in this battle - he has Veil for 50% status resistance & Shell on top of that for an extra 10-15% resist to make Consummate Darkness sane.)  If you don't, off Orphan's tankiness, he's going to cheerfully status you until lots of good stuff sticks.  Deprotect & Deshell in particular have solid arguments for smashing through vanilla boss immunity, since few FF13 bosses immune them (although many, like Orphan itself, resist them).  That said, he is an indifferent status-immune boss slugger until Dies Irae unlocks.  But with his tankiness, even a 2HKO is pretty solid, and it's a OHKO if Deprotect / Deshell have stuck.  I personally wouldn't let him spam Dies Irae every turn, YRMV, but it frankly doesn't matter very much.  His only weaknesses are lacking a few key outright status immunities (Poison, Slow) and potentially ignore defense hype in the DL.  Perhaps some kind of endless buffing game as well before Form 3 unlocks.  Ubergodlike, the durability is just too damn good, and he still outslugs many characters who "spoil" him with perfect status immunity.  Ryu3 and Yuna have arguments, as do characters with uber magic resistance to just shrug off Dies Irae's damage (Dheginsea?), but that's about it.


---

Orphan 2: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over



"Yet, if we but summon the Maker, we will be given the chance to begin again.  All our sins absolved, and the world born anew!  Submit, l'Cie!  Become Ragnarok and lead us into the Light!"

"Salvation is born of sacrifice.  Miracles, of misery.  From shattered shards a new crystal legend will arise!"

(EDIT: Just to be direct & clear, skipping the plot stuff.  Unrankable.  Orphan 2 takes 0 damage from all attacks unless staggered.  Thus there's a giganto vote-split depending on if you enforce this in the DL, or just throw out staggers & scale his HP based off how long it takes to kill him in-game.  If you bake in the staggering somehow, then Orphan 2 is just worse than Orphan 1, so the only reason why Orphan wants this form is some kind of cheese-people-who-can't-stagger-him whatever that means in the DL.)

Trick fight, much like the Time Devourer in Chrono Cross.  It'll cast Death Sentence the leader (=everyone basically since it's game over if it counts down), you have 400 seconds = 6 minutes 40 seconds to win.  If you want the bad end, you can attack it.  Hits will do 0 damage but will ramp up the chain, then you can kill it in a big stylish stagger chain...  at the cost of destroying Cocoon and probably zillions of lives.  But hey our focus is to make the impossible possible, so let's blow up Cocoon then save it.  To get the good end, just sit there and take it - you make a sacrifice of your own lives to save everyone else.  Sad, but powerful.  Since winning the fight involves just doing nothing, I'm going to say not rankable.  (If you do allow beating it, nothing to see here - takes 2-3 minutes to take down, crappy offense, pretty much a style fight.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Merciless Judgement will be fatal if you are poisoned (barring a Sentinel), because the time it takes for Poison to kill off someone at 1% HP is far less than the time it takes for the animation to finish and your commands to start resolving again.

Orphan 2 is much better than you're giving it credit for, having some rather nasty tricks of its own (decent damage, accurate pain/fog, weaker damage that buffs) and is certainly no mere plot fight; I've certainly seen people have more trouble with it than Orphan 1 (I did on my first playthrough, though not my second). I don't think it matters though since it's a headache in the DL and probably worse unless you give the shield more credit than it deserves.

I'd like to see stats for Barthandelus, since I suspect a lot of people wouldn't allow Orphan as a valid form for him. I've been too lazy to get them, however, and would never judge anyone else who feels similarly.

[SnowFire]

Oh I know, but a few of those deaths from Judgment I'm pretty sure came from the sword thwack because the numbers were too high suggesting Deprotect or the like.  e.g. "Hey that damage amount is more than Snow's max HP, uh oh."  Agree it's probably poison, just didn't see the poison damage pop up at all, but it makes the most sense.

Bart is annoying because attempting to do Bart would require collecting all 3 forms most likely.  His third form is arguably the most canonical form - plotwise, it's the "realest" fight - but I suspect also his weakest, so some awkwardness there.

Also agree that Orphan is plotwise not exactly Bart for all that its goals are roughly the same, since it's Bart + unnamed portentious fal'Cie owl, but also definitely its own creature that was created from Bart.  Or something.

Orphan 2 I just steamrolled on the replay, not sure if their AI misfired or what.  I know that when I originally fought Orphan 2 it took longer and was reasonably close to timing out, so I'm willing to believe they can be more challenging, but while Orphan 1 has lots of tricks to Game Over you with, Orphan 2 seems to lack the damage / ID to actually finish the deal, more hoping to stall you out on the time limit.  (Also you still avoid the bad end by intentionally losing.)

[SnowFire]

As a minor addendum, according to Pyro Repede can eke out 14 PCHP damage over 245 turns of Gale Dog spam + 2 turns of best damage...  plus Mystic Artes, which are surely going to knock this up to 15 PCHP+.  So looks like Repede beats Orphan after all.

For those curious about Orphan's slugging potential in a duel...  still not sure exactly how to take Orphan's speed since I'm pretty sure there's occasional turn skips in there (his 2nd turn in particular feels lagged due to a skip or something to let you recover from that opening Judgment), but if we bake the 11.6% damage reduction into the PC HP average (why not, the damage reduction applies to everything) I end up with an 8600 as the "effective" PC HP average off my stats.  Thus:

Consummate Light:
Requiem = .32 PCHP, high variance (.22 PCHP - .43 PCHP)

Consummate Darkness:
Vile Exploitation: .15 PCHP
Laser orb passive: .14 PCHP
(both: .29 PCHP)

Opposite Extremes:
Dies Irae: .52 PCHP ( ~1.04 PCHP if Deprotected or Deshelled, ~1.56 PCHP if both Deprotected AND Deshelled I believe.  Not confirmed, just going off algorithm in FAQ, letting this happen to you is not wise regardless.)
Vile Exploitation: .16 PCHP
Laser orb passive: .15 PCHP
(Exploitation + Orb: .31 PCHP)

See above, I personally am not a fan of allowing Dies Irae spam since it's a rarely used move you'll see perhaps once per 2 minutes in-game, but if you generally allow full AI choice go nuts.

[Clear Tranquil]

Interesting. I've never seen Orphan heal back to 40%~ HP while using the Vanille + Poison + Gestalt/Chain Cannons delay method but maybe because I let Poison work for a while on it's own before resticking it and finishing off the fight with Poison/Gestalt.

Also Orphan 2 can be instant deathed once staggered.

Anyway interesting reads, thanks NEB and Snowfire! ~

[Dark Holy Elf]

Barthandelus 2 notes are up. Dunno how other forms would compare, though I kinda expect they'll be in the same general ability duelling-wise. I should probably try to work out Orphan's durability next.

[Nephrite]

Thank you very much.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Orphan HP notes

With the final bosses, I'm now considering Imperil. Whereas it was largely unique Vanille in chapter 11, by endgame... Fang has it for sure, and Lightning/Sazh can reasonably afford it too, just like with Deprotect/Deshell. You're also more likely than ever to have Haste, but I'm not factoring that in directly. For the calculation involving SABs, you'll note I use two SABs at one point. While I've assumed the first is Fang/Vanille (without Improved Debuffing), I assume the second is Sazh/Lightning just lobbing Deprotect/Deshells at Level 1. Obviously different parties are different and things can drive these numbers a bit in either direction. (Fang/Vanille party or Improved Debuffing wand help, parties with fewer SAB options hurt).

Average offence: ~1600 (30 points above Snowfire's, for the record. My HP is a bit lower but my defences are a bit higher, same area overall)
Orphan HP: 6,780,000, Chain: 70, Stagger: 400

Average COM damage: 20871
Average RAV chain vs. Orphan: +22.3% (+25.0% with two buffs and three debuffs)

Optimum offence, including chain: Four rounds of 3RAV, one 3COM, one 3RAV (to Stagger), 2 rounds of 3RAV, 4 rounds of 3COM = 47.3% damage in 12 rounds. Fatal damage in 76.18 PC turns (8.71 PCHP, 17.41 with damage halving)

Optimum offence, including chain and SYN/SAB: Three rounds of RAV/SAB/SYN, two RAV/SAB/SAB, one 3RAV, one 3COM, one 3RAV (to stagger), two 3RAV, three 3COM = fatal damage in 36.41 PC turns (4.16 PCHP, 8.32 with damage halving)

So yeah, pretty much my math confirming Snowfire's estimates on the subject.

[kokushishin]

Orphan's death move is supposed to have coinflip accuracy but I think I've only seen it actually trigger once.   (it may or may not trigger Reprieve as well, unit was poisoned).