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Author Topic: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information  (Read 20736 times)

AndrewRogue

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Major Mechanics Not Yet Determined:

-Skill Learning? (Level, plot, some of A and B, other?)
-Clarify PC Swapping

Game Basics:

-True Episodic Release (Continuity issues = questions at beginning if we go that route)

-Turn Based (Default VX/VXA)

-CTB (Doable via Scripts VX/VXA)

-4 PCs in battle Max (Default VX/VXA)

-Side Facing (Doable via Scripts VX/VXA)

-Randoms Encounter Meter (ala CST, BoD, etc). Fight Random NOW button. Does not restore when leaving area.

-Heal Post Battle: HP/Revive, yes. Resources? (Note: Remember this necessitates designing towards individual encounters generally, unless we run a couple of attrition segments) (Scripts in VX/VXA)

-Save Anywhere, block Saves if becoming stuck is possible (Default VX/VXA)

-Limited in battle healing/revival, enforce via heal blocking/HP reduction off big heals/revivals normally (Default VX/VXA)

-Escape is possible from most battles, encounter manipulation tools exist (Default VX/VXA)

-Characters all level simultaneously (Scripts in VX/VXA?)

-Character Commands (As follows, Scripts in VX/VXA)
--Fight
--[Special]
--Defend (Unique Effects included)
--Weapon Swap
--Character Change
--Item
--Escape

-Exp curve (Roughly 10-15 levels per episode, expected end level is cap -2, ~50% harder to achieve new levels)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:40:57 AM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 11:34:44 PM »
Stats:

-HP: Representative of a character's health. Lose these, you die. (Default)

-MP: Representative of a character's stamina. Resource. Functions as you think of it. Tends towards magical skills. (Default)

-Focus: Representative of a character's ability to fully utilize their abilities. Resource. Functions similar to WA FP, though for individual PCs. Tends towards specials. (Default VXA, Script VX)

-Strength (Str): Representative of a character's physical strength. Increases damage dealt by physical attacks. Typically linear. (Default)

-Dexterity (Dex): Representative of a character's ability to attack and defend quickly. A higher Dex stat allows the character to swing more often when making physical attacks, and also causes enemies to swing less often when attacking him or her. (Doable via Scripts in VX, unsure VXA)

-Vitality (Vit): Representative of a character's physical durability. Reduces physical damage received (as well as some magical damage). Divisive. (Default)

-Intelligence (Int): Representative of a character's intelligence and ability to use magic. Increases damage (and healing) dealt by magical attacks. Typically slightly quadratic. (Default in VXA, merged with Spirit in VX thus requires scripts)

-Spirit (Spi): Representative of the strength of a character's soul/whatever that other world that is escaping my mind right now was. Reduces magical damage received. Divisive. (Default in VXA, merged with Intelligence in VX thus requires scripts)

-Speed (Spd): Representative of the character's physical speed and reaction time. Increases how quickly the character gets turns. Linear. (Default)

-Evade (Eva): Representative of a character's ability to avoid attacks. The higher this is, the higher the character's chance to evade (take no damage from) incoming attacks. (Default, Requires Scripts to function as modifier vs Acc VX/VXA)

-Attack (Atk): Representative of how well a weapon penetrates armor. Stat that determines physical damage (equipment only) (Requires Scripting in VX//VXA)

-Def (Def): Representative of how well armor defends against weapons. Stat that determines physical defense (equipment only) (Requires Scripting in VX//VXA)

-Magic Defense (Mdef): Representative of how well armor defends against magic. Stat that determines magical defense (equipment only) (Requires Scripting in VX//VXA)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 06:20:33 PM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 11:35:17 PM »
Needs revisions, pending this week's meeting.

Stat Scaling (All Default, as this can be handled manually in both VX/VXA):

-Stat = Base stat * (Level + 50) / 50 (Default)
For the notes below, "average" indicates the value of a stat that is rank C (Scales 8 ranks up, Scales 8 ranks down), whether or not this is the actual statistical average.
-Base stats for all core stats is 60 (meaning 120 at endgame).
-Base HP averages 800 (-> 1600)
-Base MP averages 200 (-> 400)
-Accuracy, Evade, and MEvade do not grow with levels. All three average 40 before equipment. Unlike the core stats they are regularly modified by equipment, however.

Base stats vary by the following amount per rank difference (i.e. from C- to C to C+ to B-, etc.), again assuming C as the average:

HP: 30 (3.75%)
MP: 20 (10%)
Str: 6 (10%)
Dex: 5.4 (9%), rounded to the nearest integer
Vit: 3 (5%)
Int: 4.8 (8%), rounded to the nearest integer
Spi: 3 (5%)
Spd: 3 (5%)

Eva: 5% raw

The core equipment stats (Atk, Def, and MDef) also roughly double in potency from earlygame to endgame. Unlike with personal stats this is not the result of a formula but instead is an approximation to the precise stats on pieces of equipment scattered throughout the game.

All weapons possess an Atk stat, while all armours possess Def and MDef stats (though in rare cases these may be 0). Def and MDef, like core stats, initially average 60 and rise to 120. Atk stats are twice as high, averaging 120 and rising to 240.

Specific stats for equipment is more appropriately found in the Equipment section, but some general trends... Weapon Atk typically ranges from 84->168 (gloves) to 165->330 (hammers), while armour defences typically range from 48->96 (light armour Def, heavy armour MDef) to 84->168 (heavy armour Def).

Weapons also add directly onto Hit, while armours add directly to Evade. Average weapon Hit is 70 earlygame, 90 lategame.

Average enemy Evade rises from 25 to 45, meaning that C accuracy wielding an average Hit weapon strikes an average enemy 85% of the time. Note that the actual statistical average accuracy is around a C+, so this true average hits around 90% of the time. Naturally, enemy evade will vary widely, however.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 07:56:52 PM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 11:36:07 PM »
Formulas (Scripts in both VX/VXA)

Accuracy = (100 + Hit - Eva)%

For physical attacks, Hit uses the weapon's hit. For magical attacks, Hit is simply a number taken directly from the magical attack used. Most Hit stats should be lowish (0-40); due to caps in the system, 100 hit is ITE.

For attacks with multiple swings or which target multiple targets, each individual swing and target gets its own hit check. The same applies to critical checks, below.


Physical damage = FS * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality

FS stands for "first swing". The first swing of an attack (including the only swing if only one is made) has FS=2; all swings beyond the first have FS=1 (note: Ilona has a passive which changes this).

The damage formula is thus refreshingly simple. For all swings beyond the first, if the attacker and defender have equal Str/Vit, then damage is literally just Atk - Def (with the first swing being double this). Strength/Vitality gaps multiply this damage in the appopriate direction.


Swing count

Only applies to physical attacks. Compare the attacking Dexterity (Dex multiplied by the DexMod of the equipped weapon) to the Dex of the target enemy. If a physical attack targets multiple enemies at the same time, then the highest target Dex is used.

If attacking Dex is lower than defending Dex, then only 1 swing is made.

If attacking Dex >= 100% of defending Dex, then 2 swings are made
If attacking Dex >= 125% of defending Dex, then 3 swings are made
... 150% -> 4 swings
... 175% -> 5 swings
... 200% -> 6 swings

... and so on. More formally,

Swing count = (Attacking Dex * 4) / Defending Dex - 2  (rounded down, minimum of 1, maximum of 8)

If all attacks hit and do not crit, total damage is then: (Swing count + 1) * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality


Critical hits

A critical hit does either:
Final damage = old final damage * 2
or
Calculate attack with target's Def replaced by (old target's Def / 2)
whichever results in HIGHER damage. Which version to will do more damage can be predicted by checking whether Atk is over or under Def*3/2.

Critical rate is based entirely on a combination of weapon and modifications due to passive and active skills.


Magic damage = [(Level/50 + 1) * Power - MDef] * Magic / Spirit

Power is a constant associated the spell or item being used. Higher powers overcome defence better (and will likely have fewer hits to compensate), and also scale -slightly- better with time. Spells do not scale quite as well with time as raw physical attacks (but PCs get upgraded spells to compensate). It is expected that most spells will hover roughly in the range of 40-80 power; outliers will interact with defence in extreme manners (i.e. be very affected by it or nearly ITD).

Some spells will use Vitality in place of Spirit.


Healing = Magic * Power / 10

Much simpler. Note that HP is currently ~5x higher than Magic so 50 power is roughly full healing, assuming average Magic and HP.


Experience gained = 10 * 1.5 ^ (defeated enemy level - PC level)

All levels take 200 exp to reach, and overflow exp past the amount needed to level is divided by 1.5 (as if the PC levelled up and then gained the rest of the exp). Enemies more than 5 levels above the PCs are treated as 5 levels above by the exp formula. Exp gain is rounded down.

The net result of this is that one must defeat 20 enemies of equal level (e.g. 7-8 battles of 2-3 enemies each) in order to level up. Grinding is possible but increasingly difficult as the player levels. There may be a level cap for each chapter, which will be roughly 2 levels above where the player is "expected" to finish.


Speed and turns

Speed is linear. Is linear, meaning that 200 speed gets twice as many turns as 100 speed. Like many CTB-like systems, the game uses a clocktick system for determining turn order.

Defending has a flexible RechargeMod depending on PC but will likely be 0.5 as a default
Weapon switching has a RechargeMod of 0.5.


(The following would be nice to have, but likely will not happen:)
TurnCounters of all PCs are displayed visually on a vertical graphic which, at battle's start, is scaled such that all PCs and enemies will always (normally) be visible on it, i.e. it allows for TurnCounters which are anywhere from 0 to 10000 / (slowest PC or enemy's Spd), plus some extra (50%? More?) to be safe. Thus, in battle, all combatants can be seen marching up the gauge at equal speeds, getting their turn when reaching the top, with slower (or slower recharging) characters dropping down further than the fast after each get their turns. Attacks with varying charge and recharge times will have their effect on the PC's next turn shown visually as the player chooses the commands, in a fashion similar to Final Fantasy X or the Shadow Hearts sequels.

(Note that 10000 is a totally arbitrary constant which only matters for coding purposes and affects nothing the player can easily detect.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:10:59 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 11:36:36 PM »
PC Resources
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 11:41:14 PM by AndrewRogue »

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 11:36:48 PM »
Equipment (Scripting in VX/VXA)

Weapon: Primarily deals with Attack.
(Off-Hand Weapon)
Armor: Primarily deals with Defense/MDefense
Accessory: Utility Item
Accessory: Utility Item

Weapon Categories (Needs Trimming Badly Based On Cast, Preliminary Assessment) (Scripting in VX/VXA)
Gloves
Katars
Daggers/Knives
Light Swords/Rapiers
Guardian Blades
Greatswords
Scythes
Javelins/Shortspears (Merge into Polearm)
Spears (Merge into Polearm)
Pikes (Merge into Polearm)
Staves
Whips/Chains
Axes/Maces
Great Axes/Hammers
Bows/Crossbows
Darts/Throwing Knives
Boomerangs/Slings
Shields (Trim?)
Rings (Trim)
Cookware (Trim)
Instruments (Trim)

Armor Categories (Default)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 05:39:13 PM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 11:37:02 PM »
Items

-Exist. Possibly scale down in general use. (Default)
-"Hi-Items" for some PCs (Scripting in VX/VXA)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 06:52:07 AM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 11:37:16 PM »
Reserved

AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 11:38:45 PM »
Reserved

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2012, 03:13:16 AM »
Some quick clarifications off the top of my head.  These are to the best of my knowledge, so if there's anything to correct here, someone feel free.

-There are, in fact, scripts that enable sideview battles for VXA (ones that aren't Tankentai, even).

-Both VX and VXA allow for the disabling and re-enabling of saving anywhere by default.

-VX uses the same stat for magic attack and magic defense.  VXA however seperates the two.

-Equipment-only stats will need to be scripted since there are no equipment-only stats by default in both systems.


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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2012, 04:49:26 PM »
Looks good!

The only thing I'm curious about is if we can get some more elaboration on the Random Battles. I'm fine with just unseen Randoms, but I heard that there's a "Call Battle" command in the events section which would make On-Screen Enemies entirely doable (and even re-spawning upon exit/re-entering a room).

I honestly think that this would be a much nicer functions than simply randoms.

Alternately, I'd say we outright steal the CStW "Encounter Countdown" meter so that dungeon-crawling doesn't get bogged down with endless Randoms.

Both methods can even be tied into the story easily.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2012, 05:53:58 PM »
You'd have to explain CStW's method to me, as I'm unfamiliar. I have no problems with a spin on pure rando-encounters though.

The reason we are currently opting against on-screen enemies is that it is actually a fair amount of work (mapping, spriting, eventing, etc) for debatable pay-off. During the previous discussion, people were relatively lukewarm about it, which doesn't really justify the possible workload involved.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2012, 06:02:05 PM »
CstW I assume follows on from Breath of Death in that there is random encounters, but a fixed number of encounters per area, so if you grind out stuff you can explore dungeons unimpeded.  There is also an option to look for a fight if you feel the need for grindan.
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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2012, 06:31:53 PM »
Sounds like a pretty clever system. I believe there was mention of it being scriptable in chat (I remember it came up once before). I'd be interested in talking about it. Sounds like a pretty solid idea.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2012, 08:28:15 PM »
Just to confirm an encounter counter would be easy to script. We would have the option of whether we would want the counter to reset every time we leave and re-enter an area, not sure what we'd want there.

I remain pretty ambivalent on how we handle encounters, with the following stipulations:
(a) on-map encounters are notably more work. If we want to put that work in, fine, but let's weigh the decision carefully.
(b) encounter control is a pretty big deal to me, whether it be in the form of a temporary "no encounters" item (a la Mrbl3's, Repels, etc.), WA4-style break points (nothing worse than re-exploring an old area and being interrupted by piss-weak randoms), or some other method.

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AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2012, 08:39:30 PM »
NEB's B is important to me as well. As someone who understands the urge to just be able to dive past randoms sometimes (replays, when I'm in a hurry, when they are seriously dragging me down), I am in full support of this ideal.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 01:30:43 PM »
Hm.  I think we might as well confirm at this point that between the increased difficulty of A (no Call Random script, no Self-Switch Reset script), NEB, Trance's, and others' greater knowledge of RGSS2, and the general greater availability of VX, we're going with RMVX as opposed to VX Ace--poor music be damned.  Of course, this probably means we can't have that many outlier damage equations without more scripting, but that's beside the point.

That aside, going with B, we've got a few ways of going about it, to say the least.

*Battle Counter (As seen in Ar Tonelico 2, Cthulhu Saves the World, so on) -- This is actually eventable, though if you need a graphical display, then there might be scripting involved--or possibly not.  Yanfly's scripts include a graphical "encounter warning" deal that only turns on when there's a risk of an encounter.  Needless to say, this value can easily be adjusted for when running out of encounters would simply not make sense for the area, but that's beside the point.

*Item-Based Repel (As seen in...countless games, really.) -- Yanfly's got coding for this.  It's already been done, it works.  It is step-based, for what that matters.

*Break Points (As seen in WA4, WA5) -- This...well, okay.  The matter of activating break points is simple enough with eventing, be it field-style (with supercharged randoms) or dungeon-style (with puzzles).  The trick here is whether you want to force encounters to be turned on and off at the break point, or in the style of WA4/WA5 (with a button after the break point's been cleared).  In the latter case...well, have fun scripting that.


--Yes, the weapon categories do need trimming badly.  We can largely do that upon cast detailing, I believe.  We do not need twenty types of weapons--though I would like to keep it to where each PC has more than one weapon option, at least (No need for unique weapon classes, though).  Single-weapon PCs are boring.

--I figure that if we're enumerating weapons, armor, and whatnot, we might as well make a tentative decision on precisely what element set to use; given NEB's opposition to nontyped attacks (even with them being energy-based) and my opposition to element quota-filling, we might as well make an official decision/statement on this at some point.  I know that so far, we have the following:

-Slashing
-Impact
-Piercing
-Fire (I don't get why it's such a big thing, but hey, it's a basic element, and Erastus gets it, I guess)
-Disquiet (Enemy-usable only)
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »
Step-based encounter control ala Pokemon Repels seems pretty fair given RMVX's tile-based movement, I think it would really be fine if we were to pick that route. On-map encounters are a hassle and I'm not sure if they're worth the effort at all, because it also adds the dimension of on-screen enemy graphics, and if we want just one generic one, multiple, etc. Personally I am in favor of B mostly because we've got more options there and not all of them are annoying to implement.
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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 03:54:13 PM »
I think we roughly had figured (going off both gameplay and world here)...

-Slash/Impact/Pierce (Physical)

-Lightning (Metal)/Fire/Ice (Water)/Earth (Some secondary damage type? This one is always annoying)/Wood (Ostensibly Healing/Debuff effects only)

-Disquiet

Roughly speaking. Covers a decent range of elements and syncs well with plot concepts. Doesn't give us too many to deal with, but covers things decently enough.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 03:11:36 PM »
Andy has given us statheads the task of figuring out the generals of skill use; How skills are learned, their general usages, and enumerating in general terms what resources characters would be using.  Basically, "who has what, how they get that what, and what it costs" --General terms, not overly specific, mind you.

As such, I'll try my own attempt on the six or so that are notably pinned down; Katarine and The Person Formerly Named Faulheit are going to be excepted for now because nobody seems to be able to agree on the former (especially now that we're reaching critical mass for pure casters), and the latter's undergoing a retool anyway.


Noemi--Variety of magic in general. (Offense, status, buffing, maybe a token heal later on)--she's a magical jack of all trades.  Oh, and Prodigy to give her any other spell she may want from an ally for the fight.  Depending, she may have a physical technique or two to use as well, but she's more variety than focus; master of none.
Prodigy should be started with, and as for the rest...well, she might be a decent starting point for basing how magic is learned in general.  My kneejerk would be a skillpoint system (scripts exist for both engines), but that would then make me want to force a branching setup for spells--and I know Andy has stated he wants innate character progression to be linear, not branching, so I'm lacking in ideas for the time being.
I say she's a candidate for being of the multi-element persuasion, regardless; fire (Courtesy of Erastus' tutelage) and one or two others.


Mirek--Mirek is weird in that he's being expanded from his old self, rather than contracted, gameplaywise.  But as such...largely varying physical attacks, and support abilities that are focused around defending against magic--both personally and for the party.
Largely, Mirek would probably be more TP-oriented than most--with the ability to smash the ever-living crap out of someone should his TP get maxed.  (Note to self: there should not be a way to get a quick TP boost).  Might either use MP or cooldowns for his more commonly-usable abilities.
Slashing-only as far as elements go.  Yeah, he's that limited--unless we're going with sheathed attacks, in which case most of his attacks would be Impact.


Isolde--Isolde's largely being expanded in a different way--and reined in from her old incarnation.  I guess I'll give in and go with the ice/earth everyone's pushing on her. :/
That aside, seeing Isolde as a mix of Magic, Physical, and Composite damage skills here--practically everything she has does damage of some sort, and if it doesn't have a rider effect (which would usually amount to debuffing enemy defensive/evasion stats in some capacity), it's often busy doing -more- damage.  Oh, and Oversurge lets her get a shot of extra damage at a cost.
As far as resources go?  MP at the very least, with Oversurge being a skill that costs HP straight up for an instant one-shot boost to an attack (but also increases MP costs for that attack to prevent abuse).  May also factor in TP or cooldowns pending on how we're doing physical and composite skills on average.


Kasia--We'll be honest.  Kasia's a healer.  That means she's going to have the standard healer options (healing, possible status heal, revive) at some point--though with these all inflicting some sort of negative status on the recipient in turn.  That aside, she's going to have her selection of status options, both through magic and through archery, the way I see it--we need fewer pure casters anyway.  Standard status fare, I guess (Poison, blind, etc), with archery stuff doing damage as well.
Resources?  ...yeah, MP for magic, TP/cooldown for physicals, assuming MP isn't going to be a general-use SP?  I admit I'm slightly in favor of TP being used as more of a WA FP style thing here for most characters, but at the same time it's due to me liking to see basic physical use kept to a minimum--but that's my bias.


Erastus--Nothing really deep.  He's a farking fire nuker mage.  Could give him some sort of TP skills to expand upon his skillset, but as far as I'm convinced he's going to be largely one-dimensional.  He's artillery, he'll blow stuff up--see later on how I'm seeing offensive elemental magic working.


Eirwen--Okay, so she's going to be a fast attacker, and the game is apparently going to have two entirely different classes of staves.  Still say there's D3 influence here.  :P  That aside, I admit I'm not keen on the notion of making her absolutely dependent on weapon switching.  However, I have a better idea on her resources than any of the other characters here, oddly enough: Rapidly regenerating TP, with most of her skills running off of that (and some usable turn 1, even).  Cooldowns on a few of her skills (particularly First Aid and Resuscitate, her skill-based healing), and then she has Hi-Item access.  Keep in mind, Hi-Item can encompass more than the better healing items, and if we are going magitech, there'll likely be bombs or the like in there somewhere.


Element quirks in general: I will admit, if it's one thing I utterly and completely detest, it's copypasta elemental spells with nothing differentiating them outside of element.  It's boring, unimaginative, and needs to go, so I'll try to address this now.  Properties for generic elemental spells, assuming I'm getting the list for proper offensive magic elements right (If not, poke me and I can include the others) (Unique stuff can break with these properties as much as it wants, it's unique and all that crap.):

Fire--Tends toward multihitting at lower power.  In turn, it's generally sensitive to MDEF, and even merely above-average MDEF can put a damper on it.  In short, it's Faulheit's wind spells from the old IAQ
Ice--Ice is more on the slightly low-powered side, but with a tendency to delay the opponent it hits.
Lightning--Super-accurate, but unreliable when it comes to its effects; very high damage variance means it can hit hard, or barely touch you at all.  May also have a notable critrate for additional gamble-time bullshit.  MT variants may trade this in for being rando-target off of shoddy accuracy instead.i
Earth--Earth is arguably the "power" element here, the way I'm proposing--not MDEF sensitive and good power with particularly low variance.  But it's expensive, and has lower accuracy compared to the others.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 04:13:29 PM »
Here's my little "treatise" on how I think some of the characters should be handled. I suppose these are mostly to bounce ideas around and also to comment on some existing things which have been laid out. Which mostly seems thus far to consist of Namapost. I don't want to be very specific about it either, but it might end up drifting that way due to how I write things. I might also be a bit confusing. So like, let me know. For the same reasons as Nama, I won't touch on Katarine and whats-his-face. But before hand, I suppose I'll write about how I think of skill acquisition methods sometime too.

Well, one was already mentioned - skill points. That leads to a degree of customization that people might like, however it's hard to stick to the original ideal of "linear progression," and it becomes even more awry depending on how skill points are handled and how skill point gain scales. I think a skill tree system has also been developed but I do not remember where it is at present. It'll probably be more troublesome than it's worth and definitely does not follow "linear progression." That said, we may just have to stick to standard level-based ability gains for the meanwhile unless there are no objections for skill point.

So I guess I can head off to the characters proper now.

NOEMI
I think it's been well established that she's capable of using magic of many varieties and that they're not necessarily focused - her lack of specialization is what makes her stand out, so it's imperative to make sure that the spells she gets, while spread thin such as offense, status and buffs/debuffs, should never be as strong as another character who specializes in a given area of expertise but should not be too weak as to invalidate the variety she has. This probably will serve to be a challenge though, especially if some of her spells are universal (that is, she's not the only character with said spells).

On the physical side of the spectrum, she should probably not have very many physical abilities if any at all - the mere fact she's capable of using a weapon that isn't a staff (most likely a dagger, but I believe Andy in the PLOT THREAD mentioned the prospect of Noemi perhaps using 1H swords) is already testament to her Jack of All Trades nature. It would be cool if Noemi did get one or two uniques to fit her character, but I don't foresee this happening necessarily - I was thinking maybe something for flavor purposes, does not necessarily have to be that strong. On par with standard storeboughts, maybe? Or have a neat side-effect.

Prodigy is overall good.

MIREK
Sheathed blade strikes scream Iai as all fuck to me, which is kickass. In which case Impact would be more suitable of the physical elements here versus Slashing, unless he's going to be drawing the thing too. I don't think we should be restricted strictly to one element, but there would definitely be an innate bias to one of them vis-a-vis the other(s). The general consensus appears to be magic suppresion, both for self and party. This can be anywhere between direct elemental suppression to general magic defense. Reflect spells may be a neat touch too, but they'd probably be ST. These spells and defensive abilities would utilize the magic resource pool, whether that be MP or some other resource. If cooldowns are to be implemented they should be for any damage-cutting or damage-blocking spells.

Since TP appears to be the general physical resource for now, it seems fine that that'd be the pool of choice. Not sure if a max-TP limit would be a good idea, though. Actually, I think a better touch to fit the character thematically would be high-TP cost Slashing attacks, which while very few in number, would be solid damage dealers. On the flip side he would have mostly low-TP cost Impact attacks taking a line from the sheathed attack deal, and perhaps some of them would have secondary effects.

ISOLDE
Crushing enemies with Ice/Earth? Can work with that. High-energy attacks and utilizing a sort of bruiser philosophy would mean that her abilities should probably have moderate-to-high resource cost, but having a relatively high power to offset the higher costs. Not sure about composite damage skills, but they'd be a neat touch I guess. I prefer the distinct magic/physical split - magic attacks can focus on efficient target decimation while physical attacks have slightly less punch but come with debilitating effects, so as to encourage a more tactical usage of what I guess appears to me like a large arsenal. The whole "heavy weaponry" thing also makes me want to gear Isolde's physical repertoire with secondary effects and leave her magic as the truly damaging stuff.

Ok, apparently Oversurge seems to be a straight-up damage buff to skills that deal it, with an HP cost. That's pretty neat, but if we're going to factor in additional MP (and potentially TP and cooldowns) cost we should be careful as to how to scale that. Would it be based on initial MP cost? A percentage of the HP cost? In fact, how would Oversurge's HP cost be handled? Would it scale with levels? Or is it constant? Many questions need to be answered as to how to handle Oversurge. Mainly, it lies on this - does the boost from Oversurge become slowly higher as Isolde becomes stronger? Or is it constant? We should figure this out first. Food for thought mostly, because I have honestly not seen much discussion on the skill mechanic as a whole.

KASIA
Healbitch

Just kidding. Just taking a gander at her very rudimentary character info, she seems to be archer healer/doctor type. I always like those characters!

>Some sort of negative status on the recipient in turn

What? I am not sure where the impetus for this is coming from, but I'm not sure I can stand for a healer whose skills inflict drawbacks on the recipient of the heal/recovery unless said skills were REALLY good, so good that it justifies the drawback. Where did this come from? I'd really like to know, because this kind of screams "questionable decision" to me. However, this also really depends on the definition of "negative status." I'd probably agree with it a bit if the skills inflicted things like say, Sleep or Confusion, status that actually makes sense given the nature of Kasia's healing, but other than that, I don't think I can condone encouraging that direction.

Since she seems to be competent with a bow, and she's a student/researcher, it's very viable for her to be able to inflict status with her bow and some form of damage, piddly or not. The resource split would be obviously even between MP and TP (or whatever names will be finalized for the resources). However, it should not be such that it would encourage physical use more than Kasia's actually competent magic. It's just strictly an option there for when she doesn't actually need to heal.

ERASTUS
We've sort of agreed at this point that Erastus is a wizard.

He blows shit up.

WITH FIRE.

I don't really think much else needs to be said, mostly agree with the one-dimensional shtick going on. But it needs to be powerful enough to justify using it throughout the game. Again, careful thought and consideration with scaling is needed here to strike a balance.

EIRWEN
>Quarterstaff

BO STAFF BO STAFF BO STAFF

Okay, all seriousness. Swift attacker is something I can agree on, and it appears to me that there was a form of SOME Monk influence, doesn't seem to be from D3 though. Not sure about Hi-Item, but I can definitely agree that some form of enhanced item usage skill should be available. I don't think I was around for most of the more intricate discussions regarding the characters, so I'm basically shooting in the dark here. I think in her case the TP/physical resource build up would be gradual based on levels or stacks of resources, each of her skills requiring a number of stacks. Turn 1 would be 1 stack and some skills only need 1, and so on and so forth. I don't know why. I don't even remember if that can be easily implemented. Probably can be if I unlazy. Or something.

It's like 2313 at the time of posting so this is all I've got for now.

19:35:58 (trancehime) there's a specific spot in the game that's for item duping
19:36:14 (Sanae) o.o
19:39:11 (Sanae) I'd love to dupe a second trancehime.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2012, 07:45:36 PM »
Guess I'll try to clarify some things, given that I have the time and inclination to do so;

Quote
Ok, apparently Oversurge seems to be a straight-up damage buff to skills that deal it, with an HP cost. That's pretty neat, but if we're going to factor in additional MP (and potentially TP and cooldowns) cost we should be careful as to how to scale that. Would it be based on initial MP cost? A percentage of the HP cost? In fact, how would Oversurge's HP cost be handled? Would it scale with levels? Or is it constant? Many questions need to be answered as to how to handle Oversurge. Mainly, it lies on this - does the boost from Oversurge become slowly higher as Isolde becomes stronger? Or is it constant? We should figure this out first. Food for thought mostly, because I have honestly not seen much discussion on the skill mechanic as a whole.

--While specifics are typically out of the question at this phase, I feel I might as well go into a few to clarify what I imagine for Oversurge:  HP cost is something between 20-40%, boost would be something between 1.5 and 2x (numbers are a range as of current, and definitely a loose estimate at this point).  MP cost would similarly be multiplied to 1.5-2x original value; the reasoning behind this is that since full HP recovery is applied at the end of each battle, there would normally be little reason to NOT have Isolde oversurge-nuke and pretty much get away with vaporizing randoms at a level of unparalleled efficiency unless it ate into her resources more.  (And then take advantage of recovery points to be at full for the boss)  Needless to say, I figured this cost multiplier to MP (not to TP, given that you have to build up to it to begin with) would be a mitigating factor to keep her from simply nuking every single random to kingdom come with no repercussions.


Quote
>Some sort of negative status on the recipient in turn

What? I am not sure where the impetus for this is coming from, but I'm not sure I can stand for a healer whose skills inflict drawbacks on the recipient of the heal/recovery unless said skills were REALLY good, so good that it justifies the drawback. Where did this come from? I'd really like to know, because this kind of screams "questionable decision" to me. However, this also really depends on the definition of "negative status." I'd probably agree with it a bit if the skills inflicted things like say, Sleep or Confusion, status that actually makes sense given the nature of Kasia's healing, but other than that, I don't think I can condone encouraging that direction.

--This is both a carryover from the old IAQ and something that was meant to be thematic with the setting--Magical healing basically doing bad stuff to you in the long run.  The standard penalties I remember generally being attached to being affected by magical healing was either defense/magic defense loss, max HP reduction, or having further healing blocked.  Whether or not we keep with that is to be determined, but it is a matter of the setting.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 01:35:48 AM »
--This is both a carryover from the old IAQ and something that was meant to be thematic with the setting--Magical healing basically doing bad stuff to you in the long run.  The standard penalties I remember generally being attached to being affected by magical healing was either defense/magic defense loss, max HP reduction, or having further healing blocked.  Whether or not we keep with that is to be determined, but it is a matter of the setting.

This is something I virtually had no idea about.

Yeah did not know it was a thematic thing. Sorry. I still think it's a really bad idea mechanically, but if it's a setting thing... Well I guess I can't really argue with that.
19:35:58 (trancehime) there's a specific spot in the game that's for item duping
19:36:14 (Sanae) o.o
19:39:11 (Sanae) I'd love to dupe a second trancehime.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 01:14:27 AM »
Quote
Well, one was already mentioned - skill points. That leads to a degree of customization that people might like, however it's hard to stick to the original ideal of "linear progression," and it becomes even more awry depending on how skill points are handled and how skill point gain scales. I think a skill tree system has also been developed but I do not remember where it is at present. It'll probably be more troublesome than it's worth and definitely does not follow "linear progression." That said, we may just have to stick to standard level-based ability gains for the meanwhile unless there are no objections for skill point.

Unsure. We can look into this. I generally like PCs to advance uniquely, but, at the same time, it is likely a good idea to add some variety and player choice into stuff. Perhaps we can look into some plot related specialization opportunities or something similar? Depends on how attached people are to that. We do seem to be aiming for equipment variation.

Quote
Noemi--Variety of magic in general. (Offense, status, buffing, maybe a token heal later on)--she's a magical jack of all trades.  Oh, and Prodigy to give her any other spell she may want from an ally for the fight.  Depending, she may have a physical technique or two to use as well, but she's more variety than focus; master of none.
Prodigy should be started with, and as for the rest...well, she might be a decent starting point for basing how magic is learned in general.  My kneejerk would be a skillpoint system (scripts exist for both engines), but that would then make me want to force a branching setup for spells--and I know Andy has stated he wants innate character progression to be linear, not branching, so I'm lacking in ideas for the time being.
I say she's a candidate for being of the multi-element persuasion, regardless; fire (Courtesy of Erastus' tutelage) and one or two others.

~~~

I think it's been well established that she's capable of using magic of many varieties and that they're not necessarily focused - her lack of specialization is what makes her stand out, so it's imperative to make sure that the spells she gets, while spread thin such as offense, status and buffs/debuffs, should never be as strong as another character who specializes in a given area of expertise but should not be too weak as to invalidate the variety she has. This probably will serve to be a challenge though, especially if some of her spells are universal (that is, she's not the only character with said spells).

On the physical side of the spectrum, she should probably not have very many physical abilities if any at all - the mere fact she's capable of using a weapon that isn't a staff (most likely a dagger, but I believe Andy in the PLOT THREAD mentioned the prospect of Noemi perhaps using 1H swords) is already testament to her Jack of All Trades nature. It would be cool if Noemi did get one or two uniques to fit her character, but I don't foresee this happening necessarily - I was thinking maybe something for flavor purposes, does not necessarily have to be that strong. On par with standard storeboughts, maybe? Or have a neat side-effect.

Prodigy is overall good.

No real arguments or disagreements here. I'd prefer to avoid healing on her if possible except maybe (plot basis: it is the one area where she isn't that talented, hence Kasia picks it up) and have her physical side be a little closer to a competent fall back physical and non-fail durability. She should generally be MP based with a decently deep resource pool, it feels like.

Quote
Mirek--Mirek is weird in that he's being expanded from his old self, rather than contracted, gameplaywise.  But as such...largely varying physical attacks, and support abilities that are focused around defending against magic--both personally and for the party.
Largely, Mirek would probably be more TP-oriented than most--with the ability to smash the ever-living crap out of someone should his TP get maxed.  (Note to self: there should not be a way to get a quick TP boost).  Might either use MP or cooldowns for his more commonly-usable abilities.
Slashing-only as far as elements go.  Yeah, he's that limited--unless we're going with sheathed attacks, in which case most of his attacks would be Impact.

MIREK
Sheathed blade strikes scream Iai as all fuck to me, which is kickass. In which case Impact would be more suitable of the physical elements here versus Slashing, unless he's going to be drawing the thing too. I don't think we should be restricted strictly to one element, but there would definitely be an innate bias to one of them vis-a-vis the other(s). The general consensus appears to be magic suppresion, both for self and party. This can be anywhere between direct elemental suppression to general magic defense. Reflect spells may be a neat touch too, but they'd probably be ST. These spells and defensive abilities would utilize the magic resource pool, whether that be MP or some other resource. If cooldowns are to be implemented they should be for any damage-cutting or damage-blocking spells.

Since TP appears to be the general physical resource for now, it seems fine that that'd be the pool of choice. Not sure if a max-TP limit would be a good idea, though. Actually, I think a better touch to fit the character thematically would be high-TP cost Slashing attacks, which while very few in number, would be solid damage dealers. On the flip side he would have mostly low-TP cost Impact attacks taking a line from the sheathed attack deal, and perhaps some of them would have secondary effects.

Iaijutsu was the concept, yeah. So yeah, the main idea would be a large array of impact attacks with a couple high damage slash attacks. Unsure of the correct way to handle the support section yet. There is also something to be said that he is also a reasonable candidate for counterattack based stuff as well.

This is also generally a good time to question how exactly TP should work in general if it is gonna be a primary resource. Is it something that starts at 0 and builds through time/ability use (representing focus?), which means it could be used in conjunction with MP (Stamina?). Should all PCs have access to it (perhaps for limits), while others use it as their primary resource?

Based on some of the later stuff, it does look like we're going to focus on those two as the major resources.

Quote
Isolde--Isolde's largely being expanded in a different way--and reined in from her old incarnation.  I guess I'll give in and go with the ice/earth everyone's pushing on her. :/
That aside, seeing Isolde as a mix of Magic, Physical, and Composite damage skills here--practically everything she has does damage of some sort, and if it doesn't have a rider effect (which would usually amount to debuffing enemy defensive/evasion stats in some capacity), it's often busy doing -more- damage.  Oh, and Oversurge lets her get a shot of extra damage at a cost.
As far as resources go?  MP at the very least, with Oversurge being a skill that costs HP straight up for an instant one-shot boost to an attack (but also increases MP costs for that attack to prevent abuse).  May also factor in TP or cooldowns pending on how we're doing physical and composite skills on average.

ISOLDE
Crushing enemies with Ice/Earth? Can work with that. High-energy attacks and utilizing a sort of bruiser philosophy would mean that her abilities should probably have moderate-to-high resource cost, but having a relatively high power to offset the higher costs. Not sure about composite damage skills, but they'd be a neat touch I guess. I prefer the distinct magic/physical split - magic attacks can focus on efficient target decimation while physical attacks have slightly less punch but come with debilitating effects, so as to encourage a more tactical usage of what I guess appears to me like a large arsenal. The whole "heavy weaponry" thing also makes me want to gear Isolde's physical repertoire with secondary effects and leave her magic as the truly damaging stuff.

Ok, apparently Oversurge seems to be a straight-up damage buff to skills that deal it, with an HP cost. That's pretty neat, but if we're going to factor in additional MP (and potentially TP and cooldowns) cost we should be careful as to how to scale that. Would it be based on initial MP cost? A percentage of the HP cost? In fact, how would Oversurge's HP cost be handled? Would it scale with levels? Or is it constant? Many questions need to be answered as to how to handle Oversurge. Mainly, it lies on this - does the boost from Oversurge become slowly higher as Isolde becomes stronger? Or is it constant? We should figure this out first. Food for thought mostly, because I have honestly not seen much discussion on the skill mechanic as a whole.

Unsure here on the split. Debuffs and high damage split should be split along physical and magic in general as well (possibly creating a fun interplay between MP and TP). Not sure composite skills should be common, but I do like the idea of one or two of them.

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Re: Disquiet (Working Title) - Currently Assumed System Information
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »
Proposal for TP:

It is Wild Arms FP. It increases by varying amounts for different actions - when receiving damage, avoiding attacks, dealing single/multiple physical hits, dealing critical hits, using specific skills, or having an equipment/status that regens TP per turn.

It decreases when using skills that use TP as a resource, when using a "Limit" if the TP gauge is full, upon death/KO, or from attacks that deal TP damage.

The amount/frequency of TP increasing/decreasing can vary dramatically between PCs, depending on their TP needs and how powerful their TP skills are.


Uses for TP:

Most physical-based damage skills. Physical-based HP healing skills. MP-healing skills. Limit Breaks for characters who have them. Passive effects when TP is high (for Mirek/Guardians). Possibly we might want to make it necessary to use these for using Items, too, to keep their usage under control (a la Hi-Item).



Erastus: I still think he should have a spell or two that rando-targets damage or hits all units on the field with status or damage, just for some flavor in the sense that high-level magic is hard to control, particularly for a mentally unbalanced person like Erastus.