Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 74

[Nephrite]

"Hmm... You're starting to impress me. I think I need to make things harder!


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 3a: A Singlet]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, are single target for this floor and may be targetted regardless of original conditions.
Team Yoshiken vs. Chris, Rody (Firefly Rune (Not Sealstone)), Alanis and Melville
Team Yoshiken vs. Flora (WoZ)
Team Yoshiken vs. Atma Weapon
*Full Heal
Team Yoshiken vs. Evrae and Defender X
Team Yoshiken vs. Kunino-Sagiri


Team dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
[Ramza: Ninja, Item, Attack UP Auto Potion]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team dude vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Team dude vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang
Team dude vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Team dude vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey
Team dude vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis


Team Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Monkey vs. Alex, Jessica, Kyle, Nash and Mia
Team Monkey vs. Jude, Cecilia (ACF), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa
Team Monkey vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia and Blanca
Team Monkey vs. Fate, Cliff, Mirage, Sophia, Nel and Maria
Team Monkey vs. FF1 Knight, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna


Team Glen | Virginia, Red, Sharanda, Emma, (Speed?)  Eiko
[Brave Seal, Lust Jaw and Hope Shard]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Glen vs. Sasarai, Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)
Team Glen vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji
Team Glen vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella
Team Glen vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Mao(SH3) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Team Glen vs. Ashera, Chaos and Malice Gilbert

Firefly - The first offensive skill of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multitarget attacks will focus on the bearer only. (E.g. MT Attack would hit 5 times in a 5 person party.))

Multitarget - All attacks are MT, however the damage/healing/status hit rates are halved and at maximum 50%.

Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x, but increases the cost of the character by 1.5x (rounded to nearest half point, .5s are 1.0s).

[Dhyerwolf]

Easy starting vote

Team Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Monkey vs. Alex, Jessica, Kyle, Nash and Mia- MT Status off Rikku speed
Team Monkey vs. Jude, Cecilia (ACF), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa- MT status off Rikku speed
Team Monkey vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia and Blanca
Team Monkey vs. Fate, Cliff, Mirage, Sophia, Nel and Maria
Team Monkey vs. FF1 Knight, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna- MT Status off Rikku speed works well enough here.

[Dhyerwolf]

Is Psyche Bomb X supposed to be once per floor or once per fight Neph?

[Nephrite]

Let's go with once per fight, since I wasn't the person who put that list together anyway, I don't feel I can make a decision on it besides what's written.

[superaielman]

Pass to Yoshi and Dude, abstain for now on the other two.

[Dhyerwolf]

Let's go with once per fight, since I wasn't the person who put that list together anyway, I don't feel I can make a decision on it besides what's written.

FYI, I hadn't looked before because it wasn't relevant, but...it's really weird. It's an OPB item anyways (It's also above an MT OHKO while some other items listed as one only are notably inferior. The floor 7 list is very confusing- the same item is listed three times as "one time only." If it was meant to be used every battle, Sharanda probably needs a score adjustment in the future because it's damage really is crazy.

[Nephrite]

It might be best to just remove that item entirely from her list.

[Dhyerwolf]

Okay, holding back the idea of Psyche Bomb X, the key for Glen is Great Boosting Virginia and letting her unleash large MT. Factors that came up in analysis:

-->Does WA 3 Medium summoning take FP in it after subtracting the -25 FP for summoning? This is a pretty big damage effect?
-->Are Virginia's averages supposed to be compared to her base or her stats after Mediums (For example, against base her boosted HP is like 150-160%, but it's only 110% if the HP boost is averaged in?)
-->Were Sharanda other's items just the healing, status healing and revival or is MP healing also included if storebought (GB only has 3 uses).
-->Don't know if this will be relevant, but can Calm Mind target others or only Suicune? What is Suicune's MT if any

Didn't remember how bad Sharanda's PDur was (Sub 60%, so lots of constant KOing of her and the about as durable Emma), so there are definite worries. The Water fight has potential for nastiness (Lenus has uh...psychotic Mdur, and has 80%-90% MT when taken below 60% HP), but these questions will make it so I won't be posting a wall of words that I'll need to revise later.

[Glen Veil]

Summon should use the current FP of the character considering you don't need 25 base to summon(you can summon at 1 fp in game)

I've been taking Ginny averages to the twinked Arm  Gallows with Aqua Wisp 3 turn average with her included when giving info, this is probably the second harshest view that can be used against her(giving the other characters the unused mediums in a semi optimal setup would be the harshest)  If you disallow twinked arms in the average her damage goes way up, same if you don't include her twinked stats in the average for some reason.

Regarding Psyche Bomb X damage, it should be good, but not a ohko, It's endgame which means twinked final additions should definitely be considered as normal now, which really drives the average up, I need to look into this a little deeper myself since I think there is literally one faq with damage formulas, which could be made clearer, along with the fact that US and JP versions of the games have different mults for items/dragon spells(which the faq decides to do one in percentages and the other in giving a times x value for the mult, which is just ugh.)

[Yoshiken]

Calm Mind is self-only.

Will edit in analyses at some point~

[Dhyerwolf]

Blah, long post eaten by dungeon, but now I can sum it up more succinctly. Currently going with fail for Glen. Thoughts are:

Virginia- 110% PC HP, 3400ish damage on MT summon, 1800-2000ish on ST magic, 1200 on physical or so. Nasty when under GB, but in horrible danger if anyone lives past it and hits her.

Emma can GB three times and run out MP
[Brave Seal, Lust Jaw and Hope Shard]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Glen vs. Sasarai, Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)- Want to use a GB+Summon here. Other people can probably clean up the rest.
Team Glen vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji- Luc has nasty MT (and does marginally beat out Emma's speed to me) and Barby is at least fast turn 1 (How fast is a question mark. Assuming very fast though or at least her speed would be noted as "Bad" it seems like). However, looks like the good is that Luc does not OHKO Emma to me (Not far from it), so at least they can out Emma. But to get to the big MT damage, Virginia needs to go into the durability danger range (And it only OHKOs Tiamat. Miranda or Red can get Luc, but then forgo reviving or healing). Kanji can OHKO Sharanda and without that FP, Virginia is not dangerous. There's some danger here of a round robin revival (Eiko can MT revive, but will just have that cancelled out by Kanji MT), while Barby just works on getting people out. Red's limit may at least come into play.
Team Glen vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella- Aww at no Rubicante now. So enemies are a bit speed anemic outside of Ho'oh, but Ho'oh does live through GB+Summon (and Yukiko probably evades it turn 1 to me). Pressure is...at worst, meaning that if Emma uses GB, she is now out of MP. It also arguably might halve Summon's damage. Ho'oh probably chooses to heal just to solely drag Pressure out longer. If GB is not used, there would be worries about killing Estella (And she may just choose to Blazing Wall someone to ensure that she gets to use some damage). Yukiko could full revive and drag this out.
Team Glen vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Mao(SH3) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)- I guess this fight is now a more dangerous one. Lenus has a nasty limit and is an Mdef tank. Below 60% HP, she'll start off with 80%-90% MT dark magic on an instaturn, and good luck avoid the HP barrier. So...if GB was not used last time, they can kill everyone but Lenus and not chip around Lenus' limit. Lenus will then kill Emma, Virginia (if Summon was used), and anyone retaining much damage from previous fights (Red is a great choice). Playing catch up (especially if Red) is dead is not happening before the quadra turn.
Team Glen vs. Ashera, Chaos and Malice Gilbert- Okay, Mantle is...scary here. Does the team opt for weaker, more finite MT. She is a magic tank and an evade tank. GB needs to only be used in one fight to still be usable now (Read: unlikely).

However, maybe Virginia has some normal spell to tip this? Needless to say, there are a lot of dangers here.

[dude789]

Pass to Monkey, the Floor is really vulnerable to sleep. There are only like 2 or 3 characters who block it on the whole floor for me. My team and Yoshi's team also pass. I'll add in more analysis later if it's needed. I think Glen's team fails.

[Yoshiken]

Pass to my team. ST floor vs. BC Eph is just.. kinda brutal, especially alongside good healing.
Pass to Dude. None of the fights are particularly troublesome, and he can always leave someone alive to heal up if needed.
Pass to Monkey. Ugh. Rikku vs. PCs. So much hate for status-whoring.

Okay, Team Glen write-up. I will say now that I've been told Sharanda gets some MP healing from storebought items, so all of this is just to see if the team can survive with 32 items and MP healing. If the MP healing is thrown out, this changes to a fail.
Team Glen | Virginia, Red, Sharanda, Emma, (Speed?)  Eiko
[Brave Seal, Lust Jaw and Hope Shard]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Glen vs. Sasarai, Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS) - A variety of decent MT damage and two characters hitting Land Umber's weaknesses.
Team Glen vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji - Sharanda/Virginia/Red, between them, can finish everyone who isn't Kanji. The team can heal up against Kanji decently well, especially given his speed.
Team Glen vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella - ahahahaha. Decent Ice damage against Yukiko, and some decent Water damage too. Everyone except possibly Ho-oh falls very quickly, and Ho-oh will be down a turn later.
Team Glen vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Mao(SH3) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS) - Only one Emma spell needed so far (Earth fight) so can throw up a Lightning Zone here, and that is enough for Sharanda/Red to blitz most down. Lenus lands a limit phase, but it's not fatal, and the team can recover and kill from there. Resource drain, but a manageable one.
Team Glen vs. Ashera, Chaos and Malice Gilbert - And now the resource drain. Kneejerk that Sharanda's used about 20-25 items so far, so I'll say.. 8 left for this fight.
Emma can Great Booster Sharanda, Virginia can Phantasm Heart, and Sharanda can Psyche Bomb X (which I'll allow unless there's a specific ruling otherwise, but it doesn't seem too bad - only Emma here makes it ridiculous). That's 1.6 PCHP to average, which probably just misses the kill on Chaos/Gilbert and.. is actually enough to kill Auras. Auras have 0.321 PCHP by my calculations (which assume parties of 5 because I don't penalise SRPGs for larger casts) and even the magic-reduction Auras take 0.336 from that. Evasion, however, means two of each Aura survive.
With Phantasm Heart included, Virginia is taking 0.84 here, leaves her with roughly 0.55 (not that this matters much now). Red kills another Aura, leaving 1 Magic Aura left, sitting on 0.2 (PCHP).
Ashera MT physicals, Virginia/Sharanda are dead. Red has 0.42 (PDur) remaining. Emma has 0.05 (!) (Pdur) remaining. Eiko has 0.22 (PCHP) remaining.
Eiko MT Curagas, which is enough to fully heal everyone who's alive. At this stage.. I don't think there's really a way for Glen's team to lose, given that two attacks (that connect) from Red are going to kill Ashera, one if Emma's been able to throw a Great Booster on him, which she has the resources for, assuming everything before this write-up.

So yeah, it's up to Neph to make the call on what Sharanda's allowed. If she's given Psyche Bomb X and the store-bought MP healing, then pass. Otherwise, fail.

[ThePiggyman]

Team Glen vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella- Aww at no Rubicante now. So enemies are a bit speed anemic outside of Ho'oh, but Ho'oh does live through GB+Summon (and Yukiko probably evades it turn 1 to me). Pressure is...at worst, meaning that if Emma uses GB, she is now out of MP. It also arguably might halve Summon's damage. Ho'oh probably chooses to heal just to solely drag Pressure out longer. If GB is not used, there would be worries about killing Estella (And she may just choose to Blazing Wall someone to ensure that she gets to use some damage). Yukiko could full revive and drag this out.

For what it's worth, Sharanda can use a Frozen Jet, which is MT Water/Ice damage, and will certainly help mop up. It could save a Great Booster.

Team Glen vs. Suicune, Marle, Lenus, Mao(SH3) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)- I guess this fight is now a more dangerous one. Lenus has a nasty limit and is an Mdef tank. Below 60% HP, she'll start off with 80%-90% MT dark magic on an instaturn, and good luck avoid the HP barrier. So...if GB was not used last time, they can kill everyone but Lenus and not chip around Lenus' limit. Lenus will then kill Emma, Virginia (if Summon was used), and anyone retaining much damage from previous fights (Red is a great choice). Playing catch up (especially if Red) is dead is not happening before the quadra turn.
Team Glen vs. Ashera, Chaos and Malice Gilbert- Okay, Mantle is...scary here. Does the team opt for weaker, more finite MT. She is a magic tank and an evade tank. GB needs to only be used in one fight to still be usable now (Read: unlikely).

However, I'm not sure the team makes it through these two fights. Never realized Lenus's magic defense was THAT sick. 60% reduction? This is madness! It literally negates Great Booster. And Ashera is... well, as you say, really scary.

Yoshi (Ephraim SMAAAASH), Monkey (herp-derp-Mach5-MT-100%-status) and dude (hey look, no one hits anyone 'cept Worker 8 ever) all pass without much trouble.

EDIT: Going to go with fail for Team Glen. Initial impression is that the team can make it out of the fourth fight alive, but not without taking a beating and really pushing their resources. The fifth fight is too much. Ashera is tough, and a tank in more ways than one.

[Random Consonant]

Team dude passes.

[Dhyerwolf]

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Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 3a: A Singlet]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, are single target for this floor and may be targetted regardless of original conditions.
Team Yoshiken vs. Chris, Rody (Firefly Rune (Not Sealstone)), Alanis and Melville
Team Yoshiken vs. Flora (WoZ)
Team Yoshiken vs. Atma Weapon
*Full Heal
Team Yoshiken vs. Evrae and Defender X- Okay, slowing the thought process down here, just because hey, this is actually kind of a dangerous fight for this team. Defender X can start with the 114% phys damage, is a physical tank. Gilder is tied up every single turn to that Evrae does not Stone...assuming that Gilder has 3 SP here, which I'm clueless about. 4 SP is right at endgame, so it's really conceivable that only Vyse would (who had 3 SP at like 20 and gained the third notably before everyone else). If so, Evrae would just status Ephraim turn 1 and Defender X couild OHKO whoever he wished, and the team would not be getting back from that. With Aura of Denial turn 1 though, the enemies can't quite get Gilder (taking endgame durability Defender X just fails to OHKO him). Even so, this could be a bit of an MP waste for Eiko/Jessica which would be bad next fight. Those occasional Defender X counters are nasty too.

Team Yoshiken vs. Kunino-Sagiri- Kunino is...durable. Really durable. By P4 topic, almost 3.5 PC HP and halves damage. Even with a grain of salt, this is dangerous for a few reasons, the main one being that in no way in AoD stopping the Control moves, so below 50% HP, Ephraim is attacking his own team. Above 50% HP, Kunino is stealing MP. Ephraim may do about OHKO damage, but that's still enough to kill either Eiko or Jessica's MP pretty much. The is especially dangerous for this team because there is one extremely strong PC and then 4 weaker ones. The strong is controlled, wipes out the weak. What happens when only the controlled PC is left effectively? A loss? Self-attacking? Hmm.

Needless to say not enough idea to vote. When Gilder gets that 3rd SP is key.

[Nephrite]

The Control does wear off, so I wouldn't see it as a loss.

[Dhyerwolf]

Right, but then would just be reused if possible (Also, the question mark of whether Ephraim would just hit himself or sit there while under control).

[Nephrite]

He can only cast it once, can't he?

[Tide]

It's a limit threshold move. He can only use the ST version at about 50% and the MT version at about 33%. Actually, all of Kunino's other moves are threshold moves (quad converge unlocks at 75%, control moves I already covered and Unerring Justice at about 25%). The control is also only for 1 turn and yes, each one can only be used once.

Whether or not control one PC results in a loss is impossible to test in P4 since MC never gets controlled (thus you can't kill off all your party members to see what happens). Although if it matters, if MC dies while everyone else is controlled, it's still a loss (granted P4 game over rules, so YMMV).

[ThePiggyman]

Team Yoshiken vs. Evrae and Defender X- Okay, slowing the thought process down here, just because hey, this is actually kind of a dangerous fight for this team. Defender X can start with the 114% phys damage, is a physical tank. Gilder is tied up every single turn to that Evrae does not Stone...assuming that Gilder has 3 SP here, which I'm clueless about. 4 SP is right at endgame, so it's really conceivable that only Vyse would (who had 3 SP at like 20 and gained the third notably before everyone else). If so, Evrae would just status Ephraim turn 1 and Defender X couild OHKO whoever he wished, and the team would not be getting back from that. With Aura of Denial turn 1 though, the enemies can't quite get Gilder (taking endgame durability Defender X just fails to OHKO him). Even so, this could be a bit of an MP waste for Eiko/Jessica which would be bad next fight. Those occasional Defender X counters are nasty too.

According to the Skies of Arcadia section of the Dungeon Stuff, Gilder only gets 3 SP by Floor 5, so Aura of Denial first turn is a no-go, but, in my estimation, I don't think it's needed.

Ephraim w/ Body Charge doubles the slightly-below-average-speed Defender X to me, and since Defender X is an "armored" unit, and is actually hurt more by Piercing weapons in his game, I see Reginleif as hitting weakness against Defender X. I completely understand if you disagree with this train of thought, but it makes sense to me. And I know that Gilder, Eiko and Jessica (maybe Alicia, too?) all have status healing, and Evrae is only mildly above average speed, so as soon as Defender X is taken care of, it becomes a ring-around-the-rosie of petrifying and healing, with the others getting turns in between to attack Evrae. It might strain resources, but not enough to completely drain Eiko and Jessica's pool of MP.

Everyone will be alive going into the fight against Kunino thanks to Nall, and Jessica and Eiko can make sure they're all back to full health to deal with the Controlling, which is a limit that isn't terribly hard to avoid anyways.

EDIT: Actually, I'm unsure how fast Kunino is. If the MP drain is faster than Jessica, then things might get a bit dicy, but otherwise, Jessica can certainly heal the party.

[Yoshiken]

Ephraim w/ Body Charge doubles the slightly-below-average-speed Defender X to me, and since Defender X is an "armored" unit, and is actually hurt more by Piercing weapons in his game, I see Reginleif as hitting weakness against Defender X. I completely understand if you disagree with this train of thought, but it makes sense to me. And I know that Gilder, Eiko and Jessica (maybe Alicia, too?) all have status healing, and Evrae is only mildly above average speed, so as soon as Defender X is taken care of, it becomes a ring-around-the-rosie of petrifying and healing, with the others getting turns in between to attack Evrae. It might strain resources, but not enough to completely drain Eiko and Jessica's pool of MP.

Alicia should have Normalize by now. More importantly, she should also have her 80% unlimited-resource healing. Ephraim can smash through Defender X pretty quickly, and Eiko can finish off if needed while Alicia/Gilder cover status-healing. (If resource drain is the intention, the status has to be hitting Alicia.) After that, Alicia/Eiko can revive Ephraim and everyone can heal up against Evrae before going for the kill.

Everyone will be alive going into the fight against Kunino thanks to Nall, and Jessica and Eiko can make sure they're all back to full health to deal with the Controlling, which is a limit that isn't terribly hard to avoid anyways.

EDIT: Actually, I'm unsure how fast Kunino is. If the MP drain is faster than Jessica, then things might get a bit dicy, but otherwise, Jessica can certainly heal the party.

Boss fights in P4 are always in party order -> boss. So, effectively average, but losing tiebreaks.

[Nephrite]

I'm not sure I'd let Control be status healed... I doubt it matters, though.

[Nephrite]

Out of Curiosity, shouldn't Clarissa outspeed Rikku on Monkey's floor? I don't know how fast Rikku is turn one but I wonder if it's -that- fast...

[Yoshiken]

Nah, Control probably can't be healed, but he can only use that at two phases, and Eph won't be able to hit himself. Given that and the stupid amount of healing/revival on the rest of the team, I don't think having two characters attacking the team is an issue, especially given that Eph doesn't actually KO average. Once the control phase is gone, Kunino runs into a single counter and explodes. (In fact, it's incredibly likely that the team could blitz him past the second control phase, given that he'll need to be on, what, 1 PCHP at the most? Given that Eph deals 0.8 himself, Eiko should be able to push the extra bit that's needed to avoid having to deal with Control twice.