Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 75

[Nephrite]

"Ho ho, I suppose someone must fall eventually... Let's see if that repeats itself."


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Jo'ou | Zerase (Resourceless), Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Guido and Gorudo
Team Jo'ou vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Jo'ou vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Jo'ou vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and Sinspawn Ammes (FFX)
Team Jo'ou vs. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Queklain

Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis


Team dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
[Ramza: Samurai, Item, Two Hands, Auto Potion]
[Floor 5b: Ribbon Almark]
*Status and buffing/debuffing does not have an effect on this floor. Attacks which inflict status may still be used.
Team dude vs. Ryu1, Nina4 and Ness
Team dude vs. Mitsuo the Hero, Adachi and Shadow Teddie
Team dude vs. Zog and Sara
Team dude vs. Holly and Delphi
Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)


Team Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
[Floor 8: Maze of Trials]
*Virginia has been granted Full Libra
*KOS-MOS has been granted Double Buster
Team Monkey vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2)
Team Monkey vs. Zeromus, Exdeath and Chaos
Team Monkey vs. Boss Timelord and Belial (No 4D Pocket)
*Full Heal
Team Monkey vs. Luther (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced with Cyril and Indalecio, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness)
Team Monkey vs. Myria 1 (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced Deathevans and Barubary, then Myria 3, then with Fou-lu)


Resourceless - One character's spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a fight. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.

Firefly - The first offensive skill of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multitarget attacks will focus on the bearer only. (E.g. MT Attack would hit 5 times in a 5 person party.))

Multitarget - All attacks are MT, however the damage/healing/status hit rates are halved and at maximum 50%.

Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x, but increases the cost of the character by 1.5x (rounded to nearest half point, .5s are 1.0s).

[Nephrite]

I will not make a specific ruling on whether or not 5b cancels Worker's Innocent status.

[Random Consonant]

Not that it matters much since W8 has 0 Faith anyways.

[Dhyerwolf]

Easy Ones First

Jo'ou passes.

Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang- Eiko will die again to Edward (The pain). Yang can status out Jessica. Ephraim can kill a twin, but Alicia and Gilder...may get the other twin (They better hope so or the team flat out loses here).
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato- Even if they got through, prepare for MP damage and lots of Confuse status. 
Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey- They can just kill Eiko
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis- Olan can KO 1 HP Eiko with staff beats. Ephraim will go after Alma so she can't buff someone. Cloud and Beowulf do get to unleash their status, so Alicia and Jessica are statused. Ephraim and Gilder (having faced a Worker and Reis attack) are now facing at least 4 enemies, maybe 5 with no healing. Gilder gets to spend half his turns casting AoD, although they'll just pick him off first. Then it's ST Eph versus tanky and countering Worker, Mevade ignoring Cloud (actually, he may status Ephraim first), Reis (Well...she can damage and avoid counters), and Beowulf (Not great against Ephraim's evade, but give him a few turns and something will stick).

[Nephrite]

Not that it matters much since W8 has 0 Faith anyways.

You make a good point.

[dude789]

My team passes. Cecilia should definitely have her advanced spells for this floor which makes her a very good healer and she gets a neat field effect spell that reduces all offensive magic damage to zero. Anti Magic pretty much shuts down the Zog/Sara and Holly/Delphi fights and really reduces the total offense of the Ghaleon and Persona 4 fights.

For the first fight, Nina4 physical and Ryu's MT physical just miss killing Worker 8. Kyra Medices him if you see that working, if not it's not a huge problem. With or without Worker, they should be able to take out Nina4 and Ness gets revival locked because otherwise Ramza, Ditto Ramza, Kyra and Ceci take out Ness. Ryu1 isn't really threatening the team on his own. For the Persona4 fight, Adachi probably takes out Worker with Vorpal Blade, but the team should be able to bum rush him since Teddie and Mitsuo aren't immediately threatening. The team takes their time and wears down the rest of the opponents while Ceci keeps up Anti Magic and makes sure to keep everyone healed with Ramza restoring her mp when necessary.

Will wait for more arguments for the other teams.   

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: Shouldn't Alicia have Invoke Feather by now?  That means Yoshi's party leaves one person alive then gets everyone in good shape for the next fight, so long as at least one reviver is alive.  (Admittedly, if Eiko gets MP busted in the SO3 fight, that is straight-up bad news, so will have to think some more on that one.)

Jo'ou and dude pass.  (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?!  I guess...)

I await arguments as to how Monkey kills Mascot Yuna, since with Defense / Protect / Shell in play she's like 5.5-6.5 effective PCHP IIRC.  Double Buster'd BC KOS damage is pretty badass, but I suspect there needs to be some Mix / Gatling hax tossed in too.

[dude789]

Jo'ou and dude pass.  (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?!  I guess...)

Samurai is mainly so I can get the skillset for later. Cecilia does a pretty good job of shutting this floor down so it seemed a good time to do it. 

[Dhyerwolf]

Dhyer: Shouldn't Alicia have Invoke Feather by now?  That means Yoshi's party leaves one person alive then gets everyone in good shape for the next fight, so long as at least one reviver is alive.  (Admittedly, if Eiko gets MP busted in the SO3 fight, that is straight-up bad news, so will have to think some more on that one.)

Jo'ou and dude pass.  (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?!  I guess...)

I await arguments as to how Monkey kills Mascot Yuna, since with Defense / Protect / Shell in play she's like 5.5-6.5 effective PCHP IIRC.  Double Buster'd BC KOS damage is pretty badass, but I suspect there needs to be some Mix / Gatling hax tossed in too.

Invoke Feather I believe is L40 and endgame is L50. That's floor 5 at best.

[Dhyerwolf]

Is Trainer Y's Moogle Cure is actually 37% with Auto Cure in effect? Or is that after? 37% is still nasty stalling, but doubling and rushing may get past it. Hopefully with some Valiant.

[Nephrite]

My team passes. Cecilia should definitely have her advanced spells for this floor which makes her a very good healer and she gets a neat field effect spell that reduces all offensive magic damage to zero. Anti Magic pretty much shuts down the Zog/Sara and Holly/Delphi fights and really reduces the total offense of the Ghaleon and Persona 4 fights.

This wouldn't work on the floor. I guess I need to make it more clear, but no effects of any kind have any effect on the floor at all.

[SnowFire]

It's 37% against Auto-Shell, yes.  When investigating FFX-2 before, apparently Haste isn't tremendously good, either, so reasonable to hype Rikku's Haste as better than it.

Also I almost forgot but KOS can build up to a Boost before trying to rush down, so that should be 4x attacks in a row in trying to finish the job?  That + 100FP  Summon/Gatling + buffs should probably do the trick, actually.  Given enough time.  Of course, Monkey has to deal with Mascot Y spamming Death every single turn on Rikku or KOS which will blow away their buffs, but Virginia will keep going with infinite resources to revive 'em?  Hmm.  Still potentially interesting but looking brighter for Monkey.

Neph: So field effects like Silent Lake don't work either?  Wouldn't think of that as a buff by default.  I don't think it changes my vote anyway since Firefly.

[Nephrite]

Neph: So field effects like Silent Lake don't work either?  Wouldn't think of that as a buff by default.  I don't think it changes my vote anyway since Firefly.

Well, it may not be a technical buff, but it is an effect. I'll try and reword it better.

I really don't see how Firefly is going to help against people who have a lot of MT after the first round... but even beyond that, perhaps I am overselling Ryu1's Rudra "always hits weakness" damage or something.

[ThePiggyman]

Just a few initial remarks, not voting yet or anything.

Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.

Wouldn't it be better for Ephraim (and Jessica, if needed) to kill off Luna before she actually uses that MT sleep? Shana literally can't do anything productive on her first turn, and needs to actually attack to charge up her Dragoon (assuming this isn't some other Shana I'm not aware of?) so I wouldn't be worried there. Luna, if I'm not mistaken, leaves not long after Nash joins, which brings up the speed average and certainly means that Luna is going after Yoshi's WHOLE TEAM. I doubt she's getting off the Sleep spell.

It's 37% against Auto-Shell, yes.  When investigating FFX-2 before, apparently Haste isn't tremendously good, either, so reasonable to hype Rikku's Haste as better than it.

Also I almost forgot but KOS can build up to a Boost before trying to rush down, so that should be 4x attacks in a row in trying to finish the job?  That + 100FP  Summon/Gatling + buffs should probably do the trick, actually.  Given enough time.  Of course, Monkey has to deal with Mascot Y spamming Death every single turn on Rikku or KOS which will blow away their buffs, but Virginia will keep going with infinite resources to revive 'em?  Hmm.  Still potentially interesting but looking brighter for Monkey.

As I understand it, the Full Libra is blanket status immunity, so Death is a no-go, but couldn't Moogle Beam outright kill her? The stat topic says it's ITD, but I'm not sure whether that damage is reduced with Protect or not. If it is, that helps, since Rikku can throw up a Light Curtain. Either way, Virginia is the only one with revival, so she seems like the most important target regardless, and Mascot Yuna being status immune herself means all Rikku will be doing is buffing.

Also, does anyone know what FF10-2 Regen is like? If it's anything like FF10 Regen (regaining HP on EVERY turn that passes, including enemies and allies), then that certainly won't make the slugfest go any faster.

[dude789]

That's lame that Anti Magic won't work, but I don't think it changes much. Ramza stil has Auto Potion and if Cecilia has the parasol by now that she's almost impossible for the bosses to kill unless they completely focus on her in which case Kyra and Ramza just bring her right back. Even without the parasol her and Kyra's magic durabilities are pretty good and Kyra and Ceci have a ton of healing between them.

[SnowFire]

Moogle Beam is a ~1.45 PCHP ITD Physical (remember, the kill point listed in the topic does not include Mascot Y herself, so it should go up a bit when she's in play).  Don't think ITD matters vs. Protect, so as long as Virginia has at least .75 PCHP effective physical durability, she's probably fine.

Also, Yoshi, I was referring to Deathing KOS & Rikku repeatedly. 

[Glen Veil]

Going to point out that Valiant is a spell that comes on the Flash Hit medium, since Monkey's Virginia does not have that in his setup, that spell is a no go.

Also, I wouldn't personally consider Cecilia to have "Great" healing, Remedy is only about a 50% mt heal, it's great in game sure, since damage tends to never really exceed 50%, but in the dungeon? yeah.  Parasol isn't until floor 6 (You get the hint in the Elw World, after which the only dungeons left are De Le Metalicca, the Gemini place, Pandemonium, and Artica Castle before the final dungeons).  Honestly, I think the only thing that is actually hypable about Cecilia on this floor is that she can actually use Randomizer for the chance at pretty numbers without having to worry about the chance of one of the backfired status spells.

[SnowFire]

Hmm.  I'm taking another look at Team Dude, since now I note that his offense is bad.  Just...  giving up the first round in the dungeon is horrible horrible horrible Neph, and that looks like a lot of mage type characters to futilely wail on W8.  (There's a reason this combo was banned for a long time.)  Even teams with bad damage can snipe a few key targets given 5 actions to play with.

I mean...  take the Ghaleon fight.  Ghaleon eats a round of damage, then opens with 3x Physical on W8, possibly eating a counter, but let's say that's fatal.  (Very well might not be due to Defense UP).  Ghaleon eats another round of damage, possibly sans Ramza if he bothers to Phoenix Down W8.  Ghaleon uses Hell Wave + Rock & Roll for ~80% MT damage, killing Ditto.  Round 3, Cecilia uses the 50% MT healing move and I presume Kyra has some MT healing as well.  Ramza & revived W8 (who is immune to the MT magic) maintain the beats.  Round 4....  repeat?  And Ghaleon is probably giving up a double sometime soon here due to turn-based low speed -> doubles disrespect.  Think dude grinds it out anyway.  Same deal with Zog / Sara, they can't threaten past the healing.

I suspect looking now that the only potentially dangerous fight might be the first one, but not really a Nina4 / Ness expert.  All 3 seem tanky enough to maybe survive round 1 against dude's offense, which gives them a shot, but I'm not sure what they can do with it.

[Nephrite]

Hmm.  I'm taking another look at Team Dude, since now I note that his offense is bad.  Just...  giving up the first round in the dungeon is horrible horrible horrible Neph, and that looks like a lot of mage type characters to futilely wail on W8.  (There's a reason this combo was banned for a long time.)  Even teams with bad damage can snipe a few key targets given 5 actions to play with.

I mean...  take the Ghaleon fight.  Ghaleon eats a round of damage, then opens with 3x Physical on W8, possibly eating a counter, but let's say that's fatal.  (Very well might not be due to Defense UP).  Ghaleon eats another round of damage, possibly sans Ramza if he bothers to Phoenix Down W8.  Ghaleon uses Hell Wave + Rock & Roll for ~80% MT damage, killing Ditto.  Round 3, Cecilia uses the 50% MT healing move and I presume Kyra has some MT healing as well.  Ramza & revived W8 (who is immune to the MT magic) maintain the beats.  Round 4....  repeat?  And Ghaleon is probably giving up a double sometime soon here due to turn-based low speed -> doubles disrespect.  Think dude grinds it out anyway.  Same deal with Zog / Sara, they can't threaten past the healing.

I suspect looking now that the only potentially dangerous fight might be the first one, but not really a Nina4 / Ness expert.  All 3 seem tanky enough to maybe survive round 1 against dude's offense, which gives them a shot, but I'm not sure what they can do with it.

Ghaleon really only has to do 1x physical on W8 and then can resort to his MT spells. It doesn't matter if he's hurting W8 or not, there, since he'll just keep using his MT spells to kill everyone else.

Zog's breath focusing on W8 seems kind of bad, and also keep in mind that Char is MT and I think Gale is too.

I'm not saying he loses, I'm just saying I think there's more to it than "W8 takes all damage and is fine."

I changed the Firefly stone so it no longer affects MT, so... eh, whatever.

[dude789]

Nina4 gets 2HKOed from average physicals even with  25% reduction so Ramza and Kyra can probably take her out since Ramza's physicals hurt pretty bad right now. Also if Remedy is essentially a MT Heal spell than its quite a bit better than 50% healing. Closer to 70% (Heal is 2600 to a 3600 HP average.) Ditto is probably going to change into Ramza for most of the fights on this floor which means that both are going to have Auto Potion making them difficult to kill. Zog's MT physical is also really really terrible. (Char is quite good, but Sara doesn't have the MT to push it to really dangerous levels. Ceci can keep up with their MT). Kyra doesn't have MT healing, but her and Cecilia should be able to keep up with most of the damage on this floor with Ramza and Ditto helping out with Auto Potion.

[SnowFire]

Ditto doesn't get Auto-Potion from turning into Ramza.  He would get to pick 4 of Ramza's moves and then have 5 charges of them, and would get Ramza's PA/MA/Brave/Faith (=non HP stats).  Checking Bulbapedia,  "Transform does not copy the target Pokémon's Ability" which would be the closest analogue.

No MT healing on Kyra?  Weird.  Well that makes things more interesting as now Cecilia can't keep up with Ghaleon in the long-game, and no Parasol yet as Glen noted.  There's still Auto-Potion + W8 being annoying to contend with of course, and a lot of potential ST healing to stall.  Still, Ghaleon's an interesting fight now since team dude has to "blitz" him out before his healing is overwhelmed.  Hmm.

Neph, I wouldn't see physical + MT spell being a particularly compelling option for Ghaleon turn 1 anyway, it might save him a turn of Cecilia damage by forcing her to heal, but in exchange he eats a turn of Worker 8 damage which is probably worse.  I don't let Zog spam Char every turn so that strategy is out and Cecilia can probably keep up the healing.  As for MT on turn 1, sure, let's say W8 dies horribly from 5x damage Zog physical - he just gets revived.

[dude789]

Ditto doesn't get Auto-Potion from turning into Ramza.  He would get to pick 4 of Ramza's moves and then have 5 charges of them, and would get Ramza's PA/MA/Brave/Faith (=non HP stats).  Checking Bulbapedia,  "Transform does not copy the target Pokémon's Ability" which would be the closest analogue.

I just tested this, and this is only true for Gen 3. I think most of the pokemon in the dungeon are running off of Gen 4 so it seems fair to assume that Ditto is as well. As for other things, if the team gets in really dire straights, Ramza can chip in with Murasame for some GT healing which should be good enough so that Murasame + Ceci healing tops off the team. Zog's physical MT physical isn't coming close to killing worker 8. It's seriously something like 30 damage to a 250 hp average and I think if nothing else the speed advantage tips the Ghaleon fight in my favor and lets them get in the hits they need.  Final note is that Hell Wave isn't complete MT. Stat topic says that it usually hits around 3 people which sounds about right unless the team is bunching up for Murasame.

Edit: Ditto is definitely a Gen 4 or beyond Ditto because Quick Powder was introduced in Gen 4.

[Dhyerwolf]

Just a few initial remarks, not voting yet or anything.

Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.

Wouldn't it be better for Ephraim (and Jessica, if needed) to kill off Luna before she actually uses that MT sleep? Shana literally can't do anything productive on her first turn, and needs to actually attack to charge up her Dragoon (assuming this isn't some other Shana I'm not aware of?) so I wouldn't be worried there. Luna, if I'm not mistaken, leaves not long after Nash joins, which brings up the speed average and certainly means that Luna is going after Yoshi's WHOLE TEAM. I doubt she's getting off the Sleep spell.

I see Shana starting with SP, so leaving her alive means that the team eats 55% MT Damage, which means that someone tends needed to waste a turn using MT healing. So Eph goes after her. Then they have to go after Hahn, because Hahn will ID Eiko on average turn 1. Helps if you don't see Shana starting with SP (which is fairly conventional), although that final fight is killer (And Eiko is likely still falling somewhere to start the Nall revives->some quick pokes and kills Eiko cycle; likely the VP fight at worst). Of course, Tia has a 50/50 of tying someone up too, to make the fight harder.

[Glen Veil]

Dude, that average is with Cecilia equipping a Necromnicon, which she also doesn't have access to until floor 6, without that her damage/non Hi-Heal healing are literally half as good.  Remedy right now is probably 50% pchp at best, given worse heal but lower hp numbers to counteract that somewhat(and lower magic).  If you ever need to Opt for Parasol for her by endgame floors, her mt healing will never be much better then ~35ish percent outside of Mystic or Raftina summons.

[dude789]

Necronomicon being floor 6 is a judgement call. There's still 3 dungeons or so between De La Metallica and Ka Dingel. I'd say that at the very least she'd have it for the Ghaleon fight.