Tales of Graces- ranking stuff (spoilers)

[superaielman]

Anyone who has played it knows that there are some interp issues with the game, including where to take endgame.

Issues-


Where to take endgame? You can either take it at the end of the f arc or at the end of the normal game. I'm strongly inclined to do the former, but whoever does make the stat topic will get final say.

Titles- I don't think I see the actual title effects that carry over as legal. It creates a Bari type situation with the damage reduction titles, and I'm sure there are other ones. Skills that you can port to other titles are fine though. There are some titles that are blatantly illegal by the end of graces (f arc titles, most mastery titles). End of F arc, dunno. There's a reasonable argument to allow all titles since that is the last painful way to stat topic, but I would have to finish that arc to say for sure.

Stats- Are effected by how you level up your titles. Ugh. Approximations will get accurate enough data, I suppose?

Ranks-

Asbel, Cheria, Hubert, Sophie, Malik, Pascal for PC's. Richard and Lambda work for bosses. Emeraude would be fine as well.  As much as Cedric was key to the plot, he wasn't a great fight and only had one scene.. I seriously doubt Richard wants his PC form. Kurt and Victoria have worse cases than Cedric, so they aren't something I would support.

I would take the bosses on Normal or Moderate. Moderate felt like an average RPG experience to me challenge wise, so probably that.  The bosses are all some shade of heavy- they have better HP than TotA bosses, but worse offense. Lambda has a bunch of annoying statuses too.

[Niu]

Allowing all title is the easiest.

As we can jsut compute the base states with default states grwoth by the end game level, then add the states from the title on top of it.
That seems the fairest way to do thing.

Just one thing, should universal titles like the status blockers be tretaed as legal?
And by universal title I mean the way to learn them and the bonus the title provided are completly identical to all characters.
As there are titles that shares the same requirement, but gives different bonus to differentr character,a nd soem involves unique skills.

[Pyro]

- I'd say endgame is end of F arc because that is the most straightforward. Also the greater CC and the existence of Accel makes the cast more interesting. I can see someone wanting to original endgame.

- I would assume all Titles for stats/moves. Maybe make an exception for the most ridiculous ones. (like 10000 B artes for Richard or whatever). The title effects themselves have a lot in common amongst the cast. The 'halve damage above 400/800/1200' ones are popular for obvious reasons, but they would require a sacrifice on damage and some PCs have a much more lenient threshold on it. Other than that, default is whatever boosts stats the best.

- Stats: Just get an approximation of titleless stats (subtract accrued title stats from equipmentless stats), then add all the stats from all titles. It'll be all good. Niu's method won't work very well because it ignores the fact that equipment stats factor into the process too. Ignoring the existence of equipment is even less accurate than using one particular player's experience.

- Combos would be till CC is exhausted, within reason. Probably wouldn't let Cheria lead off a combo with Indignation (mutter). I typically do 1/2 starting gauge, but might do 1/4 Accel gauge given that you waste it all when you get to 1/2 if you use it. Not sure.

- PCs: Rank everyone, including the King.

-Bosses: Cedric, Kurt, Emeraude, Lambda. Richard is kind of a cross between Richard and Lambda, who are very distinct. He has his own PC form anyway. For the F Arc, the Little Queen would make some sense but isn't really doable for reasons that become obvious. The Fodra Queen is workable. Also a bitch.

Moderate sounds fair to take things to. It's a good balance between rewards and actual difficulty.

[superaielman]

Some of the mastery titles are absolutely insane (I haven't even gotten a couple of Asbel's B artes, there is no way I see him having those mastered in the DL).  There are a handful of others as well, mostly high level titles. There is a title you get when you hit L200. That isn't legal, obviously.

[Niu]

Taking account of equipment would be ridiculous.

Then we have to evaluate the quality of the equips in each stage of the game. An depends on how you collect the stamps, some character get their better weapons later than the others depends on the play style. And this really fucks up the states distribution.
Also, best equip don't always leads best states growth either. As to the total amount of states value gained per level never changes, just how it is distributed is changed. Depends on play style, one can unknowingly screw distributing up their limited state points to the states that actually don't matter to the characters.
It is impossible to simultaneously provide best equip for everyone, and the results is someone's states will be awkward if we do take in the equips.

Using default states growth would remove the difference cause by each individual's play style.

[superaielman]

Niu- For those that don't know, how do default stats grow compared to in a normal game? Also, ToG bosses follow the typical limit unlock pattern of earlier tales bosses, no? Cedric hit overlimit twice, at 50% and 25% HP.

[Niu]

I can calculate the default distribution of the states if soemone can provide me the starting equipmentless states of the character when they first join the party.

And I don't have the bosses' action pattern. I do have almost all the multiplies for every attack in the game.

[Talaysen]

Niu- For those that don't know, how do default stats grow compared to in a normal game? Also, ToG bosses follow the typical limit unlock pattern of earlier tales bosses, no? Cedric hit overlimit twice, at 50% and 25% HP.

Basically, here's how it works.

-Each character gets a certain amount of stats allocated per level.  This number depends on the character.
-The number of points allocated to each stat is directly proportional to what the current stat is.  So if someone has 1.5x the A.Atk as C.Atk, they'll get 1.5x more A.Atk than C.Atk on that level up.

I don't think equipment changes TOO much, since they boost all the relevant stats.  The problem is when you dualize either weapons or armors more, since that will bias the stats a certain direction.  Or if you were actively tweaking specific stats with qualities and stuff.

Niu, I would use the starting stats of characters with their default equipment on.  That would somewhat include the trend of equipment without actually having to consider it fully.

---

As for the original issues:

-Take endgame as the end of f arc.
-All titles barring very extreme exceptions.  I was able to master all arte titles by the end of the f arc so I don't see any problem there.  Stuff like level 200 is probably a bit much though.
-Title equip bonuses included, unless at least 1/4 the cast gets the EXACT same bonus.  Status resist titles are also legal.
-Bosses taken on Hard.  You can play it on first playthrough from the beginning so it is legal.

[Cmdr_King]

-Take endgame as the end of f arc.
-All titles barring very extreme exceptions.  I was able to master all arte titles by the end of the f arc so I don't see any problem there.  Stuff like level 200 is probably a bit much though.
-Title equip bonuses included, unless at least 1/4 the cast gets the EXACT same bonus.  Status resist titles are also legal.

This is roughly where I'd fall.  If memory serves, the status-resists total up to what, 15% resists to basically everything?  Sounds like a good baseline, since it translates to "isn't complete bait to this status, but can definitely be hit with it", and I think there's status blockers available for everything anyway so it really amounts to the characters not being weak to status more than anything I guess.

No strong opinion on bosses. 

[Niu]

The HP gain per level. The value is halved starting from lv.62

Asbel:
Kid-32
Adult -44
Sophie: 38
Hubert:
Kid - 40
Adult - 45
Cheria: 32
Richard:
Kid - 16
Adult - 50
Malik: 56
Pascal: 30


The list of states gain per level. The value is halved starting from lv.62

Asbel:
Kid - 12
Adult - 16
Sophie: 19
Hubert:
Kid - 15
Adult - 16
Richard:
Kid - 12
Adult - 17
Cheria: 18
Malik: 15
Pascal: 19

States distributed to individual states per level =
Current individual states X states gain per level / (current sum of all six states) + boosts from title skill if any
Decimals are omitted in the above equation, but the decimals of the result value stacks.

Total states received from titles for each character. Excluding DLC titles, of course.

Asbel
HP:2240
Atk:318
Def:308
Matk:408
Mdef:336
Hit:292
Evd:361

Sophie
HP:2190
Atk:450
Def:283
Matk:350
Mdef:335
Hit:267
Evd:355

Hubert
HP:2360
Atk:313
Def:218
Matk:310
Mdef:338
Hit:410
Evd:223

Cheria
HP:1510
Atk:254
Def:300
Matk:426
Mdef:294
Hit:226
Evd:326

Malik
HP:2550
Atk:218
Def:393
Matk:292
Mdef:253
Hit:328
Evd:349

Pascal
HP:2160
Atk:343
Def:418
Matk:297
Mdef:172
Hit:218
Evd:395

Richard
HP:1590
Atk:295
Def:250
Matk:346
Mdef:224
Hit:204
Evd:184

The base minimum CC and maximum CC are 3-6 after title boost. Except Richard who is 3-7.

[074]

Hm.  If that's the case, then unupgraded equipment stats can be easily obtained (I...doubt weapon/armor crystal dualizing would be DL-legal). 

Most characters seem to have at least one or two weapon options that they comparably favor in a duel, but the options seem to spread out around f arc.  Guess I'll take a list of said options per character, at the very least.  In addition, each seems to have at least one unique armor, which I might as well also list.

Incidentally, I take characters around end of F Arc--as for bosses, Cedric, Kurt, Emeraude, and Lambda come off as the obvious ones.  I remember Richard being most competent in his first bossfight, but this might be a bit hard to track.  Barring that, though, he'd probably want his F-arc PC form.

[EDIT]: Eh, Victoria's not that offensive of a rank, and she's a more competent fight than Cedric (lol cedric).  Also, rank Poisson.  I presume the F final is also rankable, but I haven't fought it -just- yet.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I agree entirely with Tal's view on something. Unusual, but it seems the most logical. Particularly like the idea of using their base weapons' stats instead of equipment-less base stats to represent the general effect that equipment plays on stat growth.

Endgame level is end of f Arc. All titles legal. Bosses can be taken on Hard since it is the highest available default difficulty and honestly it speeds up Title-learning to a sane degree.

[074]

Notable character-specific equipment options!  Because there's a lot of equipment, and it's necessary to narrow the selection down to the good ones, really.  Also noting that I haven't found Pascal's unique armor or second Future weapon, though I'm more than aware that she's got one of each.  May also be missing a second Sophie weapon.


Asbel
Phact Phantasia (220 P-ATK, 200 C-ATK, 122 Accuracy, 11-16 CC)
Radiant Howl (273 P-ATK, 155 C-ATK, 95 Accuracy, 10-15 CC)
Excalibur (151 P-ATK, 302 C-ATK, 76 Accuracy, 9-17 CC, +32% damage against nova-weak enemies)
Jade Vestments (16 P-ATK, 16 C-ATK, 177 P-DEF, 207 C-DEF, 70 Evade)
Battle Scabbard (92 P-DEF, increases number of hits in Iron Stance by 1)

Sophie
Seraphic Hearts (96 P-ATK, 123 C-ATK, 86 Accuracy, 9-14 CC)
Omniweapon Fists (76 P-ATK, 151 C-ATK, 76 Accuracy, 6-17 CC)
Silvered Vestments (196 P-DEF, 220 C-DEF, 76 Evade)
Misty Anklet (65 P-ATK, 16 Accuracy, 16 Evade)

Cheria
Dragonbone Darts (104 P-ATK, 104 C-ATK, 104 Accuracy, 8-18 CC, +36% damage against Dragons)
Scars of Eternia (136 P-ATK, 26 C-ATK, 66 Accuracy, 9-14 CC)
Innocent Slicers (41 P-ATK, 121 C-ATK, 41 Accuracy, 10-15 CC)
Amber Vestments (151 P-DEF, 233 C-DEF, 70 Evade, increases recovery effects by 26%)
Ancient Cloth (16 P-ATK, 16 C-ATK, 64 C-DEF)

Pascal
Fandom's Light (76 P-ATK, 151 C-ATK, 227 Accuracy, 9-14 CC)
Uroboros (151 P-ATK, 227 C-ATK, 76 Accuracy, forgot to write the CC, +32% damage versus Spirit-type)
Fluffy Muffler (20 C-ATK, 20 C-DEF, 92 Evade)

Malik
Dragon's Tooth (244 P-ATK, 162 C-ATK, 81 Accuracy, 8-18 CC, +36% damage against Dragons)
Tempest Bringer (171 P-ATK, 207 C-ATK, 76 Accuracy, 9-14 CC)
Sword of Legendia (202 P-ATK, 41 C-ATK, 244 Accuracy, 10-15 CC)
Abyssal Vestments (227 P-DEF, 167 C-DEF, 92 Evade)
Chivalrous Night (92 C-ATK, 16% faster weapon return speed)

Hubert
Deathly Abyss (422 P-ATK, 61 C-ATK, 1 Accuracy, 11-16 CC)
Brave Vesperia (116 P-ATK, 252 C-ATK, 86 Accuracy, 10-15 CC)
Bahamut's Tear (437 P-ATK, 109 C-ATK, 109 Accuracy, 7-19 CC, +36% damage against Dragons)
Seablue Vestments (16 C-ATK, 217 P-DEF, 187 C-DEF)
Monocle (16 C-ATK, 64 Accuracy, 16 Evade)

Richard
Rebirth Crusade (215 P-ATK, 201 C-ATK, 71 Accuracy, 11-16 CC)
Symphonian Scepter (126 P-ATK, 242 C-ATK, 86 Accuracy, 10-15 CC)
Gnome Cloak (40 C-DEF, Petrify Resist +100 (immune?))
Sylph Cloak (40 Accuracy, Poison Resist +100)
Undine Cloak (40 P-DEF, Freeze Resist +100)

[superaielman]

Is anyone interested/working on the stat topic? Also, do statuses like Freeze or petrification on a artes only work on enemies who are weak to that status?

DL thoughts, assuming F arc. 

Asbel: Straight up slugger. Accel gives him one shot of status clearing if need be, and Burial Blade can inflict ID. He seems like a straight up slugger though. Good offensive potential and durability, but lacking in the way of tricks. High Middle to Mid heavy, depending on how damage shakes out/how effective burial blade is.

Cheria: Offense is going to be bad, and her best damage is a little slow. She does have Time Stop, and she can buff and heal. Cheria will end up as a middle of some sort, unless her damage is *way* better than expected.

Hubert: His combo has the potential to be nuts with the way he racks up hits. He can either heal with Healing Wind or use an altered art for 20% Healing. I suspect he'll be the best PC in the DL and could push into the high heavy range, depending on how his damage shakes out and if you allow starting eleth. His B artes aren't going to be worth much in the DL outside of healing though.

Sophie: Respectable damage, healing, some buffing. Sophie is a jack of all trades. She should end up in the low heavy range, with some variation depending on how her damage shakes out.

Richard: His PC form is kind of trashy in the DL. He's a middling damage dealer with no buffing or healing. Wants his boss form. Otherwise, he'll very likely end up in Light.

Malik: Likely the worst of the permanent cast members, unless Asbel's damage really sucks. His B artes aren't very good in the DL (Though he did have one that can inflict paralysis), and his a artes aren't anything special. He'll be in the high light to middle range.

Pascal: No idea.

[Clear Tranquil]

Cheria has a couple of skills which have a chance of inflicting instant death too I think~

[Pyro]

I think several PCs do have that, but it requires getting the right skills.

In Cheria's case, I think she has to use Indignation a bunch of times. I got my hands on that right before the final <_<

[Niu]

Richard might want a Accel based set up. He could get his damage going if there is soemway to get his Ignite Prison/Shooting Star spamming legally going in DL.

Malik also have status game going.
ID, Freeze, Petrify, Paralyze scattering all over the place.

Rock Lance (def up) -> Bind Ghost (paralyze & MATK up) -> Vanish Blow (ID & Paralyze) would be his ideal combo.
Abrade Burrow is also a good choice to replace Vanish Blow, which adds Poison/Freeze/Burn at once.

Asbel also have ID on Aurora Lotus, and it is a B art. In a long run, spamming Aurora Lotus should cost less CC.

Hubert's Rolling Thunderbolt and All the Way both adds paralysis, so his B art is not entirely useless.

Cheria also have a paralysis game going with spamming Religious. 2CC per cast, she can throws a lot of them a turn, and the combo damage isn't too bad if she crits (which isn't too hard when manipulating the crit gauge a little).
Her A Artes also add ATK down, so she might want to start with those too in DL.
Her IDs are Indignation and Virtuous Ray; consider the CC cost, spamming Religious is a better idea.

Sophie would want to aim Garyu Enbu in her every combo. Thanks to the charge reduction and the huge lag time that Danshaku Battai, Garyu Enbu should be pretty legal in DL. She can also mix in Uberty in the post Danshaku Battai combo after word to aim for a paralysis hit before Garyu Enbu triggers. Combine with healing game, she should do well in high heavy.

[superaielman]

Aurora Lotus is 6 CC. Even so, that is a better bet.

Niu, do you have any idea how accurate those status moves are?

[Niu]

But to get to Burial Blade, you have to spend another 6 CC first, and you'll have to start from the beginning of the chain to get to Burial Blade again.

And, I don't have the status accuracy. Have been looking around, but can't find any accurate numbers.

BTW, in game, generally all enemy is consider 100% status immune except ID, which only Bosses are immune to.
Only enemy with a status weakness can be hit by a status.

[superaielman]

I poked the GF board about status, maybe they know.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Does that mean if they have a weakness to it, they get hit with it 100% of the time? Because that would technically make all ToGf status base 100% unless immunity...

[Grefter]

That seems a bit gaming the system if that is how status works honestly.  It is an interesting approach to status in a game.

Don't really like that interpretation if status is handled in a more subtractive scale rather than a positive one like normal.  It leads to grossly overrating the status effects in a duel because the game handles status effects in an interesting manner.

[superaielman]

Does that mean if they have a weakness to it, they get hit with it 100% of the time? Because that would technically make all ToGf status base 100% unless immunity...

No. It means they can be hit by it, not that it always hits.

[Niu]

I tested a little.
Status is not 100%, and the success of status is check per hit of the status inducing attack.

[Grefter]

Yeah with that proposed system Djinn described you would build everything with 100% immunity and "Weakness" would be 80% immunity or the like.  So you do an opposing check against resistance that almost always passes instead of a bunch of inherently low chance checks.

Functionally it would be the same but you could scale things to always hit vs enemies without going into things like negative resistance levels to specific status and the like if you say wanted to have an enemy that was cripplingly weak to confusion or some such. 

(assuming I understood your interpretation of the formulas there right Djinn?)

That kind of thing you could totally interpret as 100% status rates because of how the in game formula works without the context of the execution in game.