Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 80

[Nephrite]

"Ah, so you're not invincible... Well, let's see what else happens!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Jo'ou | Zerase (Resourceless), Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
[Floor 6a: Underachievers]
Team Jo'ou vs. Largo, Sync, Legretta and Asch
Team Jo'ou vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper
Team Jo'ou vs. Berserk (ACF) and Viola (RH)
*Full Heal*
Team Jo'ou vs. Zio, Hugo (RH) and Jeremy Non(2)
Team Jo'ou vs. Scarmiglione (4DS) and Cagnazzo(4DS), when both are defeated, then replaced with Barbariccia(4DS) and Rubicante(4DS)

Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan, RAP MASTER SEIFER (Body Charge), Raynie
[Ramza: White Magic/Summon Magic/Critical Quick/Magic Attack Up/FLOAT] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)]
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP are reduced to 10% (of whatever they normally were (ANY healing is 10%, even if it was overkill full healing)) and revival may not be used by the player team.
Team Tide vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)
Team Tide vs. Krin, Karn and Jane
Team Tide vs. Yulie, Nina1 and Yukiko
Team Tide vs. Mua, Golem and Cecil
Team Tide vs. Berle

Team OK likes the Man Festival | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team OK vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and Gallows (WA3)
Team OK vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage, FF3DS White Mage, Eiko and FFX-2 White Mage
Team OK vs. Alma, Kresnik, Ricardo and Marco (RH)
Team OK vs. Boss Magus, Dalton and Augst
*Full Heal
Team OK vs. Lady Harken (ACF) and Zeikfried (ACF)

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey [Healie (Nall)] (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Water and Power Runes]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Super vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Super vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Super vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Super vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU
Team Super vs. Lich and Kraken



Resourceless - One character's spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a fight. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.

Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x, but increases the cost of the character by 1.5x (rounded to nearest half point, .5s are 1.0s).

Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has damage done to them increased by 1.1x and damage done by them decreased to .9x.

[superaielman]

Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan, RAP MASTER SEIFER (Body Charge), Raynie
[Ramza: White Magic/Summon Magic/Critical Quick/Magic Attack Up/FLOAT] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)]
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP are reduced to 10% (of whatever they normally were (ANY healing is 10%, even if it was overkill full healing)) and revival may not be used by the player team.
Team Tide vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)- Item can reverse any damage taken here.
Team Tide vs. Krin, Karn and Jane- And here.  Team chips Seifer down for the next fight.
Team Tide vs. Yulie, Nina1 and Yukiko- No Mercy should off Yulie at the least. Citan and Ramza can pick off the rest.
Team Tide vs. Mua, Golem and Cecil-  Golem shuts down this fight.
Team Tide vs. Berle- And this fight.

Team OK likes the Man Festival | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team OK vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and Gallows (WA3)- Status.
Team OK vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage, FF3DS White Mage, Eiko and FFX-2 White Mage- Yuri1/Nash should be able to blitz here.
Team OK vs. Alma, Kresnik, Ricardo and Marco (RH)- Nash's status should wreck this fight- Alma can immune it but that hurts her speed, making sure Yuri/Nash beat her to the draw at least. This team works weirdly well.
Team OK vs. Boss Magus, Dalton and Augst- This fight requries some caution due to the counters. Thinking that Yuri1 can play defensively here with a Light fusion- which also ignores Magus's barrier to me- and they can blitz once they are buffed.
*Full Heal
Team OK vs. Lady Harken (ACF) and Zeikfried (ACF)- Tenative. Yuris can chip past Harken's danger limit.

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey [Healie (Nall)] (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Water and Power Runes]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Super vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo- Kill Snow, coast.
Team Super vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)- Grind down with Solo and Brey's magic.
Team Super vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius- Lucius exploes to a Miakis physical+Angelo finisher offhand. Rest of the team isn't a threat.
Team Supervs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU
Team Super vs. Lich and Kraken- Think so. I should have enough healing and magic damage for this, as Lich can't status. 

This team is kind of bad early on; had to think some on this floor.

Snow's team requires thought, will look at it later.

[SnowFire]

I call hax on super's team.

Miakis: 4
Angelo, Cristo, DQ4 Hero: 2
Brey: 1

That's 11 points - no room for HealieNall, much less Nall-not-costing-a-party-slot.  Thus super fails for CHEATING.

[Nephrite]

Then pretend HealieNall is simply there for moral support.

[Random Consonant]

Tide passes, no vote on other teams.

[dude789]

Tide fails. Don't think they can stop the first fight from taking out someone and hurting the rest of the team. Cecilia lacks the speed and Ramza lacks to resources to consistently put up the defenses that the team needs. Golem is expensive. Without Half MP it costs 40 and Ramza's mp is probably 100-120 or so right now.

OK and Super pass, will wait for more arguments for Jo'ou.

Edit: Team Jo'ou is spoiled in with a hilariously obscure resist. Fail for team Jo'ou.

[Nephrite]

For what it's worth, if Seifer gets chipped down then I'd think Nina 1 would just cast Idle on him so that Yulie or Yukiko could kill him. Maybe they'd die before they can, though?

[dude789]

That is also an issue. Nina's faster than Seifer even with BC and Nina 1's not nearly frail enough for Citan to taker her out.

[SnowFire]

Only Nina's support / healing spells have initiative.

Anyway chipped Seifer annihilates fights 3-4 and probably fight 5 as well even giving Berle some HP credit if Seifer has any kind of reasonable support left alive.  (Seriously, check the numbers in the last topic, the absolute harshest interp possible involving No Mercy spam in the averages still ends up with BC making Seifer do 1.21 MT PCHP w/ No Mercy, frail types like Nina / Yukiko / etc. are NOT surviving and not evading the 255% accuracy).  So only if fights 1-2 really go downhill is it possible for Tide to lose.

Fight 1, Elena's the only threat, but BC Seifer + Citan can take her down off their excellent speed.  The others have just sad damage, and the goal is to kill Seifer anyway and he's BC'd so hard to kill.  I find it hard to believe that they can do really any significant damage even given high FF7 boss damage respect - Raynie / Ramza / Cecilia are all getting turns too to wipe out the survivors, Ramza & Raynie have solid MT, Citan & Seifer will have first shot round 2 to cleanup, etc.  Even if one person somehow dies, so long as it isn't Seifer (which it can't be because of BC), who cares?

Fight 2, nothing much that can be done about Follow Me, but Krin & Karn have bad damage.  They really aren't scaring anyone.  And more importantly, they aren't scaring Seifer.  After they get wiped out by Tide's turn 1, chip Seifer to some limit range and enjoy smashing the next fights.

So yeah, Team Tide passes.

Nephrite: So does super actually have a 12-point team or not?  (I agree that Nall is the obvious one to drop since it looks like plenty of revival already.)

[superaielman]

Nall is dropped yeah. He was just filler before I booted Alena.

[dude789]

Only Nina's support / healing spells have initiative.

She's still faster than him without the initiative. Nina 1 is pretty quick, Seifer before Body Charge is slow and Body Charge doesn't boost it enough to beat her to me. 

[SnowFire]

If you take BoF1 speed totally literally and don't use SDs...  which is odd since I thought you used SDs...  then Nina1 is 128% average speed.  Seifer is below-average speed but in a game where the speed stat isn't linear (there's a +30 constant added to it) and doesn't matter very much, so Seifer's like 98% avg. speed or so -> 128% avg. speed as well.  I'd normally tiebreak for the PCs, but fair enough that maybe Seifer's limit doesn't come up right away or something, so sure, let's say Seifer gets Idled.  It...  doesn't really matter.  What can that team do?  I suppose you see the Turks as inflicting some damage in Fight 1, but really can't see that myself.  And Idle isn't "paralyze", it's "slow," so Seifer if he's not dead is still going to blow up everyone at the end of the round.  If Hold was meant, eh, Ramza just spams Esuna.  Citan & Raynie shred Yulie (mostly Citan), so uh Yukiko gets off some damage.  I doubt it matters, and it certainly isn't killing anyone.

Edit: From the numbers in the stat topic, Seifer is, taking FF8 speed literally, 96% average speed for reference (w/ the +30 constant).  Make of it what you will.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

My team first, since this one is actually weirdass.

Team Jo'ou | Zerase (Resourceless), Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
[Floor 6a: Underachievers]
Team Jo'ou vs. Largo, Sync, Legretta and Asch - Saner vs. TotA bosses. Have lulz, will troll. Zerase+White Rose alone is likely to kill at the very least Sync and Asch before things get going to boot.
Team Jo'ou vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper - EDIT: CYRIL AND DECUS WALL STAR ELEMENT. I'm fucked. This is the -best- way to lose to the Dungeon ever.

[Random Consonant]

Nina1 isn't even a full SD above average, no way that she'd be faster than BC Seifer without initiative assuming he's 98% average speed before the boost unless you took an absurdly high view of how much SDs impact things.

[ThePiggyman]

I'd like to note that Seifer actually gets incredibly fast as he levels up, and his Speed stat goes up faster than anyone else (barring Kiros) in FF8, despite starting out slow. The stats in the topic are pretty much only for Floor 1, in my eyes. Depending on how you take FF8 levels and whatever levels you consider endgame, I would consider Seifer as average speed, at worst, before Body Charge, maybe even above average speed. If you scale levels, then Seifer is no longer slow.

With that said, pass for Team Tide.

Team Super also passes. Miakis doesn't have that many charges yet, but she does have a decent level lead early on, so she's got enough charges (and enough damage w/ Power Rune) to make most of the enemy teams cry.

There's far too many characters I don't know on Team Jo'ou's floor for me to vote, unfortunately. Going to abstain.

[Dhyerwolf]

Not sure why you would scale Seifer up past beyond when he's in game (Especially since...I can't remember if he could equip junctions. If not, he should be held against those and his speed is bad again).

[ThePiggyman]

Not sure why you would scale Seifer up past beyond when he's in game (Especially since...I can't remember if he could equip junctions. If not, he should be held against those and his speed is bad again).

Well, even though you only have Seifer for a very short period, it's technically possible to level him up to level 100, and I treat temporary characters in the dungeon as if they remained with the main party and leveled up accordingly. Since Seifer actually has stats that we can compare to the other characters in the party at higher levels, too, I think it's pretty reasonable.

And Seifer can indeed Junction GFs and magic.

[Dhyerwolf]

You can technically pretty much level all temps to max level though, it just takes ages (Well, levelling Seifer up to that level would also take ages, just not as many).

Granted, also not a fan at all of having allies hit Seifer unless that was priced into his score (don't think it was. Otherwise you just pick someone who goes right before him everytime, hit him and have him reliably unleash MT OHKO).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Granted, also not a fan at all of having allies hit Seifer unless that was priced into his score (don't think it was. Otherwise you just pick someone who goes right before him everytime, hit him and have him reliably unleash MT OHKO).

This. So much this. I pretty much spat at the idea of your own team attacking Seifer every time I voted on the dungeon so far, and I'll continue to do so, since that's a really degenerate strategy and Seifer should -not- be a 1.0 if it was supposed to be factored in at all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Banning the attacking of Seifer is really stupid; it is clearly a legal thing to do. The idea of having other PCs -waste their turns- to lower his HP being broken is something I can't really wrap my head around. Oh man a strategy involving an average speed (losing tiebreaks), highly statusable PC (lol hyping SDef-J on Seifer even if you allow it normally) which either needs 1-2 attacks from other PCs every fight or gets OHKOed by everything if he starts at low HP. I'm not feeling this as overpowered.

Now, he is an unusually good target for Body Charge but it's hardly any more broken than some other Body Charge candidates I want to say. Even then at 1 HP, Seifer only has a ~90% chance to get a limit so it is a strategy which may fail once per floor if you try to win -everything- that way.

[Tide]

Granted, also not a fan at all of having allies hit Seifer unless that was priced into his score (don't think it was. Otherwise you just pick someone who goes right before him everytime, hit him and have him reliably unleash MT OHKO).

This. So much this. I pretty much spat at the idea of your own team attacking Seifer every time I voted on the dungeon so far, and I'll continue to do so, since that's a really degenerate strategy and Seifer should -not- be a 1.0 if it was supposed to be factored in at all.

Pretty sure Neph said he was going to change his score after I was done using him in my current team (also restricting Body Charge to one PC instead of letting it be moved as long as the ratio score remains under 11). Run it by him to see if it is legal, but AFAIK, the rules don't state you can't do it, so *shrugs*

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I was honestly very surprised to see BC being juggled around and would've ruled it as something to not be allowed from the get-go, since it directly affects your team-building scores both upwards and downwards (and, as a caveat, I'd consider sub-11 point-building schemes illegal anyway, I've seen people getting thwacked for building sub-11 teams before. >_>). But that's why rule-adjustment exists! Whenever something breaks, scotch tape and fix it back.

[SnowFire]

Basically just want to echo what Elf said.  I do allow Status defense Junction for FF8 PCs (if you are really hardass, then yes, you can get 6 of them over the course of the game) but it isn't legal for early-game Seifer.    Seifer also is probably 1.0ish normally - even if you can set up his limit, you have to have Seifer at least SOMEWHAT wounded to get the limit off reliably, and he is a bit below average speed, so all sorts of Dungeon enemies spoil that strategy when any random average speed average damage dealer can just kill Seifer.  Strongly, strongly disagree with disallowing voluntary damage to your own PCs; that leads down a giant rabbit-hole.  Do you ban self-damage dealing moves like Worker 8's or Lazlo's when they're just stalling and intentionally trying to get wounded?  How about self-damage to cure confusion?  etc.  The most I can see is not allowing PCs who can't legally attack fellow PCs in their home game from doing so, but Seifer & Ramza can, and furthermore wounding yourself is a major strategy actually in FF8 and other games where it can matter, so yeah.

Seifer can become degenerately awesome with speed boosting, but as Elf says that's not tremendously different from other PCs who get massively better with speed boosting (Millenia, Purim etc.).  I do disagree with only limiting Seifer to a 90% chance - I'd certainly allow mashing triangle, albeit with a speed penalty when he's not very far into his limit range.

Lastly, while I think we can all agree BC Seifer is broken, let's let Tide break stuff with the broken he was granted at the rules at the time and scotch tape the future.  (Neph also has a hilarious way to make Tide's life more difficult on the later floors - add in a Full Heal after every single fight just to troll Seifer.)

--

Moving on!  Team super has healing, so pass.  Fight 4 is mildly interesting since Wingraptor has MT gravity and Lord Ochu has a 3HKO, so they could theoretically outrace super's healing, except Wingraptor goes down too fast presumably.  Fight 5, super presumably makes a dash for Flame Slash on Angelo and uses that to rush Lich out since he's the main threat.

Pass for Team OK as well.  super, Marco can immune all status as well, but think the Yuris put on too much pressure in the defensive fight anyway after Nash helps status Kresnik.

[Tide]

I was honestly very surprised to see BC being juggled around and would've ruled it as something to not be allowed from the get-go, since it directly affects your team-building scores both upwards and downwards (and, as a caveat, I'd consider sub-11 point-building schemes illegal anyway, I've seen people getting thwacked for building sub-11 teams before. >_>). But that's why rule-adjustment exists! Whenever something breaks, scotch tape and fix it back.

More or less! Not that my team is exactly broken, but yeah, Neph said he was making adjustments. So cookies all around.

(Neph also has a hilarious way to make Tide's life more difficult on the later floors - add in a Full Heal after every single fight just to troll Seifer.)

Lol, this assumes Neph will not troll me by sending Ragu army to my team's doorsteps.

[Talaysen]

(Neph also has a hilarious way to make Tide's life more difficult on the later floors - add in a Full Heal after every single fight just to troll Seifer.)

Lol, this assumes Neph will not troll me by sending Ragu army to my team's doorsteps.

No it doesn't.  He can throw Ragus AND full heals at you.